Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Divinokage]

You just gotta do it very fast, as soon as Falco hits the floor with downthrow, you get ready to do another one. =P Reading the DI at the same time is hard though for sure, I can't even do it consistently.

Linguini, I don't think it's a stretch to say that 90% of the players sucks vs Ganon lol. But I mean we have to give each other credit too because Ganon is bad. =P

There were some haters cheering for Kels saying like: "That ain't Linguini" lol.

 

[spider_sense]

I absolutely cannot get the chaingrab on fox/falco at low percents...is there some trick to it, or do you just need frame-perfect timing? =(

It's kinda hard too do, just play around with the cpu. It does become easier to do around mid-high percents.

 

[chaddd]

I absolutely cannot get the chaingrab on fox/falco at low percents...is there some trick to it, or do you just need frame-perfect timing? =(

Jump cancelled grabs and knowing how far behind you they are before having to turn around.

Also use dash dancing to get the reverse grab. If you run forward and then run backwards instead of trying to hold back to turn around it takes around 10 full frames less.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

sup haters.

use nair vs falcon.

that is all.

that's exactly my thought as well!!! also works wonder against ganon (kage knows what's up)

btw kage, sorry about the amount of bizz hype from people lately (especially wc). i'm probably nowhere near your level in the spacies match-up, at least not yet.

 

[Divinokage]

Spacies? That's all you fight don't you? I'm surprised you would be worse than me at those matchup, I just do random **** and it works according to S2j... lol.

Well my style I think is unusual because I don't play according to the matchup, I play how I think is right maybe that's why it appears weird.. lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Kage don't even respond to S2J thats all he wants. Just ignore them and be the warrior you are. Thats what we love about you!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

lol, i have the least experience against the fox match-up out of the top/high tiers. i have some experience with falcos.

but seriously, for most of my life, i've been training against mr. game & watch, peach, and captain falcon

 

[Divinokage]

lol, i have the least experience against the fox match-up out of the top/high tiers. i have some experience with falcos.

but seriously, for most of my life, i've been training against mr. game & watch, peach, and captain falcon

Omg.. ya alright. But still, it's kinda why I have difficulty explaining matchups because I never really learned from the boards or the videos. I just played the game over and over until I got it right, I play by feel and instinct. I mean ya I can try to explain certain situations but that's pretty much it. I wouldn't be able to tell you like Fair into Jab has frame advantage or something. lol. I just know like if Fox decides to nair then you can backjump fair.. you know things like that.

Kage don't even respond to S2J thats all he wants. Just ignore them and be the warrior you are. Thats what we love about you!!!!!!!!!!!

Lol don't worry I intend to. =) If you think the random **** that happened today affected me negatively, it didn't. It just showed me how ignorant most people are and showed me how many aren't willing to grow as a person.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

yeah same here. most of my gameplay is derived from trial and error. and sometimes i feel dumb when people ask me how to play ganon or anyone in general against a certain character because i don't give the best explanations. i just play the character they have trouble with and **** them over and over until they learn.

btw, a funny thing is that i learned about half of the strategies and tips in the fox match-up from watching you and linguini playing against different fox players on youtube.

 

[Divinokage]

Lol awesome, well we do what we can right? =P Just imagine if every region had like 150+ players man people would be nuts with matchups and experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvuwyqVGwKg&feature=player_detailpage#t=120s Omg combo! When close to the ledge, **** up air just straight up fair, I think it's better.

 

[Geenareeno]

Nice performance at MIST Kage. Some of your best play imo. Also I didn't realize Bizzaro got top 32 at Genesis 2 so amazing job on that.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

@kage: yeah, i wish i could hang out in a densely smash populated area like irvine, ca or in az. and that combo is too good

@geenareeno: thanks!!

 

[Walt]

Biz move up to concord and jam with the dbr homies or like oakland for the 510 dudes

 

[-ACE-]

Jump cancelled grabs and knowing how far behind you they are before having to turn around.

Also use dash dancing to get the reverse grab. If you run forward and then run backwards instead of trying to hold back to turn around it takes around 10 full frames less.

I've always kept my eyes on ganon while watching my opponent's DI with my peripherals. It made it easy to see exactly when the dthrow animation was up so I could dash>jcg in either direction as needed. It also helps you get used to the timing imo, especially on different characters (weight). So, I'm not holding backwards, just snapping backward to dash as soon as dthrow ends. Am I wasting frames?

Also Zane/Stane (lol)... post a link when your friendlies from MIST get uploaded!

 

[Divinokage]

There you go.

Vs G.Vice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQE45oju0tI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFfU1Fbtn74&feature=related

Vs The March Hare

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvuwyqVGwKg&feature=related

Vs VTS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYOnE83wLfw&feature=related

Vs Arby

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p6YmjZWWtg&feature=related

vs Yoshiman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wJzF-7sT_Q


I'd probably john about how I had no energy but since it happened in the midwest, no johns. =P

 

[G. Vice]

No, it's totally true. Kage literally just rolled out of bed into the shower and onto melee when this was recorded. We were all pretty drained, but we put him through the Arkansas gauntlet nevertheless lol. Besides Yoshiman, I think I was the last person he played. All in all though, he pretty much handed us the business as to be expected.

Good stuff Kage =)

 

[Geenareeno]

G. Vice does your tag spell Renokumo?

 

[G. Vice]

G. Vice does your tag spell Renokumo?

Not intentionally.

It spells "Vice" in a cool lookin' way though :D

 

[LoOshKiN]

Also use dash dancing to get the reverse grab. If you run forward and then run backwards instead of trying to hold back to turn around it takes around 10 full frames less.

I'll try that, but I don't understand how going forwards then backwards saves you frames

G. Vice: nice post count \m/

 

[G. Vice]

I'll try that, but I don't understand how going forwards then backwards saves you frames

G. Vice: nice post count \m/

Lol yeah another person said something to me about that too. Being a man of the cloth as I am, I had to post as soon as I realized it.

And Loosh, dude I wish our MM had gotten recorded. Had fun playing you bro

 

[-ACE-]

By "the cloth" he means ganon's cheap rug/cape.

 

[chaddd]

Lol yeah another person said something to me about that too. Being a man of the cloth as I am, I had to post as soon as I realized it.

And Loosh, dude I wish our MM had gotten recorded. Had fun playing you bro

I've always kept my eyes on ganon while watching my opponent's DI with my peripherals. It made it easy to see exactly when the dthrow animation was up so I could dash>jcg in either direction as needed. It also helps you get used to the timing imo, especially on different characters (weight). So, I'm not holding backwards, just snapping backward to dash as soon as dthrow ends. Am I wasting frames?

Also Zane/Stane (lol)... post a link when your friendlies from MIST get uploaded!

From what I've understood since my first days playing the game everything spends a certain amount of frames. I think it was Mew2King that told me it actually takes 11 frames to pause the game, which is why it's so hard to continue on a follow up if the game has been paused.

Anyway, from what I know, it takes 11 frames to turn around by hitting back, but it's possible to turn around in just 2 frames if you dash dance. This is because you can cancel the first frames of your dash forward into a dash in the other direction.

 

[-ACE-]

Hmm... I think its easier to get the one frame pivot by dd'ing like you said, but it's still hard for me to believe that you can't get it just by snapping backwards (by frame: 1. input dash, 2. begin pivot via dash, input jump 3. pivot, jump, input grab, etc) if you are very precise. I can't really question chaddd's authority here though lol. I'm not 100% sure anyway. I'm pretty much money on all of ganon's cg's save spacies at low% though, idk I feel like I wouldn't be able to regrab browser when he di's behind at 0% (not easy) if I was wasting that many frames.

 

[Magus420]

If you only need to just grab behind you without JC grabbing (like Falco/Fox DIs behind below like 60 or so) you can just hold/tilt back, begin turning for 1 frame, then press grab, taking a total of 8 to get the grab out.

If you need to JC grab to reach them though, smash behind then do the JC grab. If you smashed fast enough that lets you do 1 frame of turn, 1 frame dash, 1 jump, 7 grab for a total of 10. If you press back too slowly though the turn doesn't go into dash until the 9th for a total of 17, and if you try to jump/JC grab before the laggy turn finishes you turn back to the original direction you were facing. You need to make sure you avoid getting that laggy turnaround when trying to dash behind you.

If you dash dance it'd end up about the same as the laggy turn. You can't turn around until the 5th frame of the dash if it's the 1st dash you've done (after the 1st turn in a DD you can do 1 frame turn -> 1 dash -> 1 turn -> 1 dash -> etc). If you press forward 1 frame, then press back on the 2nd or 3rd you'll actually moonwalk and not DD since it's the 1st dash. At best you'd dash 4 forward, turn 1, but then need to backtrack some of that distance to reach where you started.


GIFs and stuff about it:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11874209&postcount=70

 

[Deleted member]

i dunno about ganon's n-air vs falcon seems slightly suspect

but could work

 

[LoOshKiN]

Gahhh G. Vice you destroyed me but it was tons o' fun =) we gotta do it again. I'm craving redemption

Also, in Magus we trust

 

[Divinokage]

Well if it's another option to stuff the nair, might as well.. it trades, and it's always a good trade for Ganon. =P I mean for some reason SH bair was not beating Nair when I tried, I was so confused.. lol.

 

[chaddd]

If you only need to just grab behind you without JC grabbing (like Falco/Fox DIs behind below like 60 or so) you can just hold/tilt back, begin turning for 1 frame, then press grab, taking a total of 8 to get the grab out.

If you need to JC grab to reach them though, smash behind then do the JC grab. If you smashed fast enough that lets you do 1 frame of turn, 1 frame dash, 1 jump, 7 grab for a total of 10. If you press back too slowly though the turn doesn't go into dash until the 9th for a total of 17, and if you try to jump/JC grab before the laggy turn finishes you turn back to the original direction you were facing. You need to make sure you avoid getting that laggy turnaround when trying to dash behind you.

If you dash dance it'd end up about the same as the laggy turn. You can't turn around until the 5th frame of the dash if it's the 1st dash you've done (after the 1st turn in a DD you can do 1 frame turn -> 1 dash -> 1 turn -> 1 dash -> etc). If you press forward 1 frame, then press back on the 2nd or 3rd you'll actually moonwalk and not DD since it's the 1st dash. At best you'd dash 4 forward, turn 1, but then need to backtrack some of that distance to reach where you started.


GIFs and stuff about it:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11874209&postcount=70

The frame god has spoken.

For the record, though (I'm no master of frame data, like yourself) but while chain grabbing I've always found it MUCH easier to smash the stick forward and then backwards to turn around. I wasn't aware that an actual dash dance would slow you down but if it makes any difference I've always timed it so that the dash forward never actually came out. It's just always felt like smashing in the other direction alone is less responsive.

EDIT: That's some amazing frame data, btw. It's definitely going to change a section of my play style a little. Thanks.

Hmm... I think its easier to get the one frame pivot by dd'ing like you said, but it's still hard for me to believe that you can't get it just by snapping backwards (by frame: 1. input dash, 2. begin pivot via dash, input jump 3. pivot, jump, input grab, etc) if you are very precise. I can't really question chaddd's authority here though lol. I'm not 100% sure anyway. I'm pretty much money on all of ganon's cg's save spacies at low% though, idk I feel like I wouldn't be able to regrab browser when he di's behind at 0% (not easy) if I was wasting that many frames.

You can get it by just smashing backwards, according to magus it's the easier way to do it. Based on what he's told me I have been hitting the motion for a dash dance simply because with the intention of doing it quick enough it guarantees that you're smashing backwards fast enough for the instant turnaround to work. But it's not technically a dash dance, and hitting forward isn't even necessary, it's just guaranteed that I was smashing it hard enough and fast enough to succeed in turning around fast enough.

I would have never known that if I hadn't been given the frame data on it.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

hmm...you know if you hit forward before you actually had frames to do so, and then slammed backwards when you actually did, your method is probably actually the same.

 

[chaddd]

hmm...you know if you hit forward before you actually had frames to do so, and then slammed backwards when you actually did, your method is probably actually the same.

Based on what Magus said, that seems to be what I've been doing. I just had no idea that hitting forward didn't actually do anything, it just seemed to really help my timing so I just started doing it. I still do, actually.

 

[-ACE-]

pretty sure chaddd's method makes it easy to get the one frame pivot since you're going from forward to back so quickly. I just pay attention to Ganon's dthrow animation and TRY to snap backwards as soon as it ends. I usually get the full dash but not always (sometimes I walk instead of run, which is probably due to me snapping the stick backwards a frame too early). This is basically the main thing m2k would be so uptight about when it came to controllers iirc... sensitivity of the joystick/ease of dashing out frame perfect after the lag from your previous move ends. The controller makes a big difference imo if you're trying to cg spacies at low/mid%

 

[Divinokage]

I know I posted on FB already but omg at M2k's Ganon, hilarious!! haha! <3 I love seeing other pros try to use Ganon, there's not many that do, it's so rare. =( It's usually either complete epic fail or super funny lol.

 

[choknater]

ganon is a pretty legit character. i like using him and have been using him more lately.

ftilt is a great move haha

 

[Divinokage]

Downtilt is the 2011 metagame. =P

 

[choknater]

hahaha wut. when are you supposed to use that move? is it safe

 

[Divinokage]

I just know ICs can't do much about it lol if you space it properly.. and.. it's the longest reach poke and has great juggling abilities to chain to other aerials. Dtilt is amazing vs Marth too. It sucks *** vs spacies though it's too slow.

 

[choknater]

hm i see haha yeah that's what i was thinking. for some reason every move in my head is discredited if it isn't good in the spacie matchup. i should change that mindset

i'll try it out more next time i play haha

i feel good. i 4-stocked my friend's falco the other day with ganon

 

[Divinokage]

The world is filled with spacies, I don't doubt you would think like that. lol.. (Especially WC rofl) but you still have to take every matchup into account, I mean I do change my moveset choice depending on the matchup. But I mean I like to chain jab into downtilt too, it gives so much to work with.. then you can nair into fair, or another jab to dash attack. Idk.. I like downtilt a lot.. lol. It fits my style pretty well. Give it a chance, you'd be surprised at the ******** Ganon combos you can do with that. Dtilt - forward B into wtv.. idk anything!

 

[choknater]

weird lol. nair to fair? what?

i gotta implement this kage technology

my favorite tactic with ganon is the forward roll LOL. sooo good. so fast, like dk's

 

[Divinokage]

Nair <3 in combos. =P