Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[DippnDots]

only watched the first fox match (gotta take my car into the shop) but i'll watch the rest later, from what I can see though you need to work on your timing, you seem to throw out attacks either really early or just in a quick succession. With the latter that'll just end up biting you in the ***, ganon doesn't really have an autopilot mode in the same way falco might, all your attacks need to be precise and with purpose.

 

[Dorsey]

v. fox those 2+ hit successions that lead to 40-50%+ are so crucial. that is what the fox player is hoping does not happen, and there were several opportunities for you to. that could be you not being really familiar with fox's tech options, or you not paying as much attention to your opponent / you're not ready to capitalize on it, idk, but a lot of times you would kinda read his tech, but still either time or space the punishment wrong.. even if just barely.

 

[LoOshKiN]

edgeguard with your back to the edge. Use bairs and reverse Uairs (tommyTipman's) and stay on the ground. I noticed a few times against fox you had an edgeguard setup but ya just double jumped. Think about covering the edge from the stage first.

 

[Divinokage]

Cut the ledge jumps.. don't hope for an attack, change your timing up. If you hope for an attack too much then you'll easily get hit by Fox. Because any character will hit Ganon inside his laggy moves since Ganon's moves are relatively slow, it's definitely enough time for especially Fox to get in lay some combos in. More reverse upairs edgeguard, it doesn't look like you can hit a Fox side-B if he sweetspots perfectly with low Ftilt. Check your positioning too when you compare with him.. again don't throw random attacks if he's not there... know he's going to come at you then you throw an attack. If you want to bait get a little closer to him and then you can play a guessing game.. is he going to full hop? Is he going to roll? Is he going for a SH nair? Fox's options aren't that great to approach, he's just really fast. I think if you tune in your reaction for every possible option depending on your positioning.. it's A LOT easier to have awesome spacing I think. At worst if you fail this, then you'll look like you'll have good spacing and then the position will reset.

 

[Manondorf]

Haha, I ledge jump a lot by accident because I mess up ledge hopping sometimes (a lot). It sounds like you're telling me I just need more practice and experience. Thank you for the advice.

Can you tell me if there was anything specific I did that was good/cool? I play against this guy a lot so the way I play is more like I'm trying to beat HIM since I have a good idea of what he's going to do. It's true though that I do not have much match up experience. If I could get some match-up specific advice that'd be cool.

Here are some more matches against marth. Please give me some advice on this match-up. As it stands I cannot win consistently against marth. I really don't like this match-up...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbwtiei1hrA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBdxXk6GC9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew-KGA6hw3E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_wWnO20wjY

 

[Divinokage]

Haha, I ledge jump a lot by accident because I mess up ledge hopping sometimes (a lot). It sounds like you're telling me I just need more practice and experience. Thank you for the advice.

Can you tell me if there was anything specific I did that was good/cool? I play against this guy a lot so the way I play is more like I'm trying to beat HIM since I have a good idea of what he's going to do. It's true though that I do not have much match up experience. If I could get some match-up specific advice that'd be cool.

Here are some more matches against marth. Please give me some advice I this match-up. As it stands I cannot win consistently against marth. I really don't like this match-up...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbwtiei1hrA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBdxXk6GC9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew-KGA6hw3E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_wWnO20wjY

Ok, will look into those too. But ya I guess more experience and stuff, just make sure when you attack with Ganon that you cover at least 1-2 options and keeping it safe if you really can't hit him.

 

[spider_sense]

I've only seen the Fox matches. Manondorf you didn't do so bad man; you just have to keep better stage control and learn to keep centered with Fox. Your use f-tilts and jabs to create distance and apply pressure which is great, but try to follow up with another jab to grab, remember Ganon has some really good setups from d-throw and u-throw grabs during mid to high percents. Also, try to switch up your recovery (though I know it's hard against Fox) try to up-b prematurely then let yourself look like you're coming back directly on stage, then tilt the control stick back to sweetspot the ledge.

 

[DippnDots]

against marth, you gotta remember you have more range than he does and neither of you have a projectile. You want to be in his face but in the end make him come to you.

It still seems like when you throw things out you're trying to play real fast, and your thought process is mainly advance / retreat, try to predict when marth is going to do something you know you can punish, then just execute the punishment.

That isn't the like, one sole tip that'll help you beat marth, but i really think it'll ease the match up for ya and help you figure out the rest with practice

 

[Dorsey]

that you cover at least 1-2 options and keeping it safe if you really can't hit him.

Sounds like you're kind of looking for match-up specifics manondorf, which I'm no expert on all of ganon's MUs, but I thought this was the most important thing you were lacking. Not properly having an option covered..

 

[Ulti]

I'll try to give some advice on the Falco vids, since no one else has looked at them.

Match 1:
Yeah, you need to get faster and more consistent on your tech. Probably obvious stuff you like missed platform dashes and the like.

You also seem to go for stomp a lot (0:47, 1:52, 2:25, etc). Stomp is really rewarding when it lands but it's definitely in the list of Ganon's moves that cannot be thrown out there. Granted, you did land it a lot against your opponent here, but be aware of the risks associated with and how slow it is, since Ganon is just hanging in the air starting with his 7-frame jump and 15 frames of start-up. Even if the start-up isn't punished, it can be blocked on reaction.

2:22 I honestly would've gone with a fair about here to pressure Falco near the ledge or even get him offstage (where he dies). Don't continue a tech-chase for more damage once you can take the stock.

Edge-guarding was also a bit spotty. Jab and ftilt (angled down, typically; bair can work if you're facing away already) are pretty quick moves that can hit Falco if he tries to illusion onstage or go for the edge (angle f-tilt down). I think he gets hit as long as he doesn't perfectly sweetspot the ledge and over time you'll figure out when this is possible. Upair is good for intercepting, but a lot of times you won't have time to set one up, so be aware of what you're faster options are.

Match 2
Nice tech-chase at the beginning, but again, I would've finished with fair rather than uair. Get the bird offstage!

A couple times this match you would do dthrow uair. Probably just an input error on your part, but work on not doing that.

Some other times Falco would get you in shield and you seemed to have a lot of trouble getting out (even after a full jump by Falco), recommend investing some time into learning wavedash out of shield to get you some space when he leaves gaps like that.

1:55, good example of when an f-tilt would've killed Falco. You got him almost immediately afterwards, but just look out for opportunities where you can use a simple move to kill him. I think you figured as much since you did use ftilt to kill him later on that stock, but don't be afraid to use it earlier.

2:26, why Falco took no action to avoid that missed stomp is beyond me, but keep in mind that stomp oos is VERY situational. You get punished in the whiffed lag. Other Falcos will utilt or shine you during the start-up. Use with caution. Towards the end, Falco was beginning to sort of catch on to your dair approach, once your opponent starts shielding due to Ganon's haymakers, start going for grab (dash grab, empty short hop grab, short-hop waveland grab, etc).

2:43 again, I'd go for the punch. Uair normally won't kill like it did here. Not to overstate this, but this matchup is only even/close to even as long as Ganon is getting Falco off-stage early and not letting him get back on unless it's on a respawn platform. Upair is good for edge-guarding and great for providing coverage around ganon, but when it comes time to knock spacies off-stage, few moves are better than The Punch.

Best of luck in improving!

 

[Linguini]

Alright Manondorf......watched a match vs marth

First thing I noticed is that you aren't capitalizing on the speed of the jab.

When you grab marth at very low percents and they di back you can jc grab them usually.

Full jump fair is godly against marth.

More cc's and definitely into dtilt, pops up marth nicely and sets up for an easy aerial.

When marths like to spam utilt on your shield just up b oos them lol

Thats it for now, not looking bad tho good shee

 

[A2ZOMG]

Manondorf, grab the edge when Marth recovers. In the first match I didn't understand why you didn't do that. Especially if you're comfortable with the ledgehop U-air, it's easy for Ganon to edgeguard Marth. Mostly though, grabbing the edge and edgestalling alone is really good. If your timing is good, a well-placed ledgedrop U-air generally should cover Marth's low recovery options quite nicely. Just don't suicide attempting to do that. Alternatively waveland -> tipman works well.

I'm not sure how to tell you to improve your spacing. Honestly Marth should be fearing your spacing, and I didn't get the feeling you were able to make him fear your spacing. The general rule of thumb is B-airs are good. Mixing up your Shffled aerials with fullhops to throw off his timing is important. Tilts are pretty good for spacing in general too. All in all though I think you have what it takes, just if you get a little more comfortable with spacing, you should be doing better.

 

[-ACE-]

Manondorf, learn how to gimp marth.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=266671

And when he's on the edge, bair is your best bet at punishing his getup. Mindgame him into thinking it's safe to come up (being good with platforms helps here) and then bair him. It covers any legdehop option, stand up, and getup attack. If he rolls you have a free grab and jump is always punishable.

 

[G. Vice]

Guini where's that combo vid?? You're keeping us waiting too long bro

 

[KlunkyMonkey]

Hey guys,

i have a question to all you ganon mains out there: How exactly do you ledgehop waveland with ganon?
i can never get the timing right and it's limiting my options trying to get back on stage

-KlunkyMonkey

 

[A2ZOMG]

You are able to do the regular ledgehop right? Make sure you are 100% comfortable with that before trying that. Don't forget that happens to be one of Ganon's better ledge options as well.

It's easiest to do if you're in Ganon's forward jump animation. Get in the habit of successfully ledgehopping with that animation, and then add in the shield button after that. The timing is fairly early after you press forward on the control stick, though it's better to be late and end up shielding than it is to be TOO early and end up suiciding.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I press left or right on the c stick to let go of the ledge, then right after I jump with the analog and hold left or right while pressing the r button.

 

[Jonas]

I just press down, jump and dodge.

Here's how to practice:
If you can drop, jump and land on the stage, that's the timing you need to be able to waveland. So practice ledge dropping and double jumping on to the stage.
Next, the timing of the dodge itself. It's actually a bit sooner than you'd think. If you just land and shield, you're doing it too late.

 

[KlunkyMonkey]

thanks guys for the tips

i can get the ledgehop correctly with ganon but i end up just shielding after returning to the stage. Is there any video or something that can help me get better at this?

-Klunkymonkey

 

[G. Vice]

thanks guys for the tips

i can get the ledgehop correctly with ganon but i end up just shielding after returning to the stage. Is there any video or something that can help me get better at this?

-Klunkymonkey

Easiest way I've found to do it is just hold ever so slightly away from the ledge, you'll see ganon release, then you just hold straight back on the stage, jump and push L/R. It really just takes practice and muscle memory, I don't think a video would help much.

 

[KlunkyMonkey]

Thanks G. Vice

ill work on it

 

[n0ne]

Hey ppl. Any new vids up? ive been off the boards since a couple of months ago when i uploaded some of mine...?

 

[Linguini]

Guini where's that combo vid?? You're keeping us waiting too long bro

haha I got you g. vice, i just made it through finals and **** so i've been maddd busy but i will get it done and it shall be everything its been hyped up to be.

HOLLA

 

[Roneblaster]

How does one lcancel with ganon?

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

The same as with everyone else in the game.

 

[Divinokage]

I fail L-cancels 1% of the time still.. lol.

 

[Roneblaster]

It seems harder than normal.

 

[Dorsey]

yeah I fail L-cancels every now and then. It's usually with ganon, too. Something about his slower aerial hitboxes. . . I usually spam/hit it a few times to make sure I get it.

 

[LoOshKiN]

You don't even want to fast fall his aerials like a normal character because his aerials take longer to come out. They have more active frames so keeping it out is better (most of the time) than fast falling as soon as possible. Draaagg his hitboxes around. Then lcancel before you hit the ground, independently from the fast fall.

 

[-ACE-]

Fastfalls are key to increasing your speed and your defensive game.

 

[LoOshKiN]

Right, I'm not disagreeing with you, but for example:
I used to fast fall Falcons nair too soon. The second kick wouldn't come out...

 

[Superspright]

FF off of platform landed aerials is not always good too unless it is bair or uair. Fair won't even come out, and dair will come out for a single frame. Nair will only get a single kick.

 

[-ACE-]

Of course there are times when you shouldn't fastfall, but to say that not fastfalling is better than fastfalling... That's a bit hard to swallow since everything is so situational, so I interjected to remind a few of you that falling is still very important and useful.

 

[warlock-don-mia24]

any one seen my videos in the ganon videos thread check them out

 

[Superspright]

fast falling is really only useful to speed stuff up. If your hitbox ends on frame 9, then that is when you wanna touch the ground and be l-canceling. Ganon's fair stays out FOREVER. There is no reason to FF it usually. I rarely do unless I am aiming at small characters, or crouching jigglys.

 

[godslafco]

I agree, with SS, that with Ganon speeding up everything isn't necessarily good, rather, speeding up fairs and dairs tends to be a situational thing for me. I'd rather the hit be out longer because that's how it is designed, a long slow hit.

 

[KlunkyMonkey]

speaking of fairing jigglys,

can someone tell me the ganon-jiggs matchup?

 

[Dorsey]

It's really situational like ACE said. Taking a side.. either FFing or not FFing is what's wrong. I FF plenty as ganon, it's just a part of proper spacing. It's much better just to look at it that way instead of picking out situations in which there are no reason to FF... i mean why would someone FF when they shouldn't? lol, yes I would avoid doing that. I use it to better space stuff all the time, though.

 

[Ulti]

vs. Jiggs

A lot of people have trouble spacing Jiggs. In the air, she has really good hitboxes to the sides of her and a decent one above her. She is vulnerable when you're below her and surprisingly, her hitboxes don't really cover her diagonals that well. The way to take advantage of this is to attack Jiggs from the diagonals/below her as much as possible and make sure you're really on point with your punishments. Assuming Jiggs is facing away from you and bairing most of the match, the moves you should be using as pokes/spacing tools are:

Uair: Uair is very fast and reverse uair has decent priority. Both versions can also hit Jiggs at a diagonal. You can also mix up shffl uairs with sh uair double jump --> whatever (another aerial, platform dash from the DJ, etc)

Bair: Lots of priority and this hurts. Decent speed too. Pretty straightforward to be honest. Like Uair, you can mix shffl or shffac bairs with sh bair DJ --> whatever.

Ftilt: Angled up or not angled will probably be used most. Jigg's SH can be hit by either depending on where in the jump she is. Angled up is nice since it will hit that diagonal that she can't cover.

Fair is useful in this matchup, but I find it an awkward spacing tool to use if Jiggs is bairing (which she probably is). But if she over commits to something feel free to punch. It hits surprisingly high above Ganon, so sometimes you can catch her with fair if she is returning to the stage high.

Jab is still a decent option if she gets really close (hitbox is pretty high and frame 3 is nice), but ideally she should be kept out of jab range.

Fsmash may also find itself as a useful tool in your arsenal since Ganon leans back in the initial start up -- which can cause a whiff -- and the KB is all vertical so this can KO pretty early.

Dair: Good to use on platforms (especially the highest one) since if Jiggs is going to approach you from below she has to take a long time to get up there and you can just stomp through it. Not something to base the MU around, but a nice trick if you need some time/room to breathe since Jiggs actually has an awkward time approaching from below.

Ganon can have a difficult time grabbing Jiggs if she is playing very safe but he gets a huge reward for doing so. A few pages back Magus had some info regarding dthrow --> Usmash which can KO very early (don't remember percents off the top of my head). Uair and bair work as usual, but I think that after around 60% dthrow --> fair is guaranteed so you should go for that when the opportunity presents itself. Dthrow --> fair and Dthrow --> Usmash both KO pretty early, so learn those. You can also dthrow --> nair puff at very low percents. Weird timing, but 30% at the start of a stock is nice.

As far as what Puff can do, look out for (bair)-->utilt -->rest. After about 50% I think the combo will no longer work. So be wary if Jiggs is really committing to bair at low percents. You can cc dtilt bair for a bit, but if you know she's committing that much you actually might be able to space a fair on her. After around 50%, your position on stage becomes more important than your actual damage. Being in the middle of stage while at a 100% is much better than being near the edge at 15%. Jiggs can't really KO you directly until high percents, but she should never let you back on stage. If she starts trying to zone with fair for some reason, you can actually outspace her with your fair very consistently.

Punishing rest:
Before 30%: I typically go for stomp --> FH stomp --> tech chase grab.
After 30%: Utilt. Or charged fsmash if you don't have time to utilt.

Edge-guarding: Don't jump out there and try to intercept. Edge-guard the way you play the rest of the match. Pressure her by being near the ledge and try to poke her with something to get her offstage. Don't do what a lot of people do and give her the ledge for free. Watch for pounds since those are very punishable. In some instances, it may be worth it to stomp her if she pounds close to the stage -- honestly depends on the player and how many jumps puff has left.

Stages to CP: PS BF, maybe YS (she dies early, but you have so little stage to run around on it's easy to get gimped), FD (no platforms -- I like them for this MU since you can use them to camp/get some breathing room, but it's a wide stage which is nice)

Ban: DL64. You can win here but it's her best neutral.

 

[godslafco]

It's really situational like ACE said. Taking a side.. either FFing or not FFing is what's wrong. I FF plenty as ganon, it's just a part of proper spacing. It's much better just to look at it that way instead of picking out situations in which there are no reason to FF... i mean why would someone FF when they shouldn't? lol, yes I would avoid doing that. I use it to better space stuff all the time, though.

I agree that the concept of FFing is situational, I'm just trying to build a different Ganon and I think that not FFing is more in step with the ideal I have of the character. Long active frames, slightly 'off' hitboxes, I think a lot of cunning goes into playing Ganon and not FFing plays into the deceptiveness of many of his moves.