Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

There is no way that any of these anti-fastfall advocates have never played top level spacies/sheik/falcon/marth. Acting as if you can make generalizations about how fastfalling limits your options is stupid, it is beyond necessary at high level play. Speed means so much at high level play, and I say this actually knowing matchups and having a lot of experience in each. I don't want to hear any bs about speed not being important in comparison to strategy from people that lack in the strategy department lol. Knowing what to do in a matchup makes you a very good ganon; being able to execute this strategy properly against characters twice as fast as you takes a good deal of speed/trickery. Take the simplistic approach when it comes to playing efficiently and knowing your own limits; don't take the simplistic approach when it comes to innovation. Think big, think outside the box, and realize that by not fastfalling you are purposely augmenting ganon's biggest weakness; his lack of speed.

edit: ulti, good writeup.

 

[Manondorf]

Hey dudes,

Thanks for the tips, I only just got a chance to look them over. I will make sure to put the advice to use.

Was playing a few rounds last night and doing pretty good. My friend couldn't seem to beat me with mario or link, lol. And I took a few off his fox. Falco is still a ***** though.

Much appreciate the tips on marth. Honestly I don't know what to do against him beyond the basics so any info I can get is a great help. Definitely reviewing that material.

All in all, thanks again, your words of encouragement are inspiring, haha. Probably gonna get some more matches in today.

Train hard and stay strong gentlemen!

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Kage already gave me all the advice I could ever want, but I'm curious as to what other Ganons have to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-NvN6g6IkU

 

[godslafco]

There is no way that any of these anti-fastfall advocates have never played top level spacies/sheik/falcon/marth. Acting as if you can make generalizations about how fastfalling limits your options is stupid, it is beyond necessary at high level play. Speed means so much at high level play, and I say this actually knowing matchups and having a lot of experience in each. I don't want to hear any bs about speed not being important in comparison to strategy from people that lack in the strategy department lol. Knowing what to do in a matchup makes you a very good ganon; being able to execute this strategy properly against characters twice as fast as you takes a good deal of speed/trickery. Take the simplistic approach when it comes to playing efficiently and knowing your own limits; don't take the simplistic approach when it comes to innovation. Think big, think outside the box, and realize that by not fastfalling you are purposely augmenting ganon's biggest weakness; his lack of speed.

edit: ulti, good writeup.

I agree that speed means so much, both how perfectly you can control your character at the limits of their speed, and how quickly you can adapt, react, and read your opponent's tendencies are crucial at higher levels of play - I will not argue that. I'm saying that there is, with many mid and low tier characters, a limit that they have reached meta-game wise, and I believe that's in part by the players focusing only on making them faster.

With such a priority on the speed that players put moves out, or move their character, their tends to be, with lower level players, ignoring of sound theory and overall innovation. I understand to get better most people will often imitate those who are/were the leaders with a certain character but that just leaves a lot of people who play a decent/good/decently good such and such character. I don't like that, I don't want to be like that.

Having a grasp on the match ups, on the things you can capitalize on, on the weaknesses and strengths is incredibly important, and needs to be combined with the speed to employ the winning strategy.

Fine.

I'm just looking to see if there are slightly different ways of employing the winning strategy. I want to make it winning strategies. Things like changing up from continual FFing in mid match to a slightly whiffed, but not FFd Fair can catch an opponent. It can make them rush in on that seemingly whiffed Fair and if they catch it hard, especially if it leads directly to a stock taken, then they'll wait an extra few frames, just in case which can leave them open to a rising fair->waveland->grab.

Not that any of this isn't heavily based on pressuring and reading your opponent. It is however, something that will set my Ganon apart from others of higher levels.

Yah dig?

 

[LoOshKiN]

Kage! You watched my ganon on Trail's livestream!
"any pointers?"
"Crush your opponents"
Seriously though did you notice anything?

 

[Superspright]

Ganon is not a character who 'needs' to FF all the time. Spacies do, and it helps a lot. Ganon rarely gets follow ups at high percents--so there is really no reason to FF if you just want to leave out your hitboxes a little longer. At low percents I play faster so I can definitely get a techchase, or follow a read. But, if I just want to get someone off stage I will do whatever I can. Mixing up FFing and not FFing is one of those things. Or I'll FF late, or early. I don't like to keep a rhythm at all.

 

[Dorsey]

if it will help you out-space/prioritize then fast fall, depending on what you want to do. idk what's up w/ this discussion..... and I don't FF late / early. I do it for a reason. . . kind of drunk else I'd say more, but it's still pretty simple imo.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i was playing with a friend (josh, for those who know NC), and he was frustrated with me because i was punishing his mistakes. instead, he wanted me to gain the upper hand before he believes he made a mistake. he was playing mostly falco at the time, but also a lot of falcon. while i am a believer that ganon has the ability to pressure opponents into making a mistake, i don't think he has enough of an advantage against either of these characters to garner a combo opportunity without the opponent making a mistake, even if that mistake is an easily predicted roll or approach.

I view ganon as a counter type character. he will take an opponents mistake and capitalize, hopefully very swiftly. he can take a missed L cancel and turn it into something large. but i don't think he has the inherent ability to face up a high/top tier opponent and, without strong predictions to hard counter an approach, gain the advantage.

thoughts?

 

[Divinokage]

That's actually a huge misconception.. because if you are able to hit someone that means the opponent must have failed something in order for you to successfully hit them. It's true for every character. Looking at this, that way.. yes it seems pretty depressing but ya less fails = you'll win most likely. Even if you punish a simple jump, that's a fail from your opponent lol.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

that's what i thought too. but at the same time, i think some characters (falco and fox especially) have the ability to place their opponent in a situation (almost at a whim) where they don't need to predict a wrong move to put them in a horrible position. they can either react to anything, or punish everything. i guess that is the ability to gain the upper hand prior to a mistake. i guess overall, that's the ability to safely approach...

would you agree that some characters have safe approaches while ganon doesn't, or would you rather say that no character has a safe approach, or that every character does if they "do it right"? (note, this is not directly to kage, but to any/all of you)

 

[Divinokage]

that's what i thought too. but at the same time, i think some characters (falco and fox especially) have the ability to place their opponent in a situation (almost at a whim) where they don't need to predict a wrong move to put them in a horrible position. they can either react to anything, or punish everything. i guess that is the ability to gain the upper hand prior to a mistake. i guess overall, that's the ability to safely approach...

would you agree that some characters have safe approaches while ganon doesn't, or would you rather say that no character has a safe approach, or that every character does if they "do it right"? (note, this is not directly to kage, but to any/all of you)

Umm let's see here.. well this is why the matchup chart exists it's because spacies do have the ability to punish much greatly and easier than Ganon. One punish almost always leads into 30% combos minimum... however Ganon has to rely on one huge hits most of the time in order to punish only once... so Ganon has to have insane reads to win. You need to read the opponent more than he reads you I guess. It's maybe a generalization but it's true for Ganon, it's really hard. I played vs 2 very safe Fox/Falco (Sauc3 and Tect) and I lost to them because (well either I was way too high for the tournament because I don't remember anything or they outcamped me and did the proper punishes to put Ganon off-stage and then faceroll edgeguarded me. lol. I think they improved a lot since I last played them still.. Just Ganon off-stage is really impossible to recover lol.. In this metagame, everyone has 100% edgeguard vs Ganon/Falcon.

 

[G. Vice]

I have to agree that Fox/Falco are better characters than Ganon, and that they can capitialize on mistakes far more efficiently than Ganon. I won't lie, the more I play this game the more I see Ganon getting shut down more and more often at high levels of play. I wonder what changes Ganon is going to have to make to compete.

 

[Divinokage]

This game has been out for 10 years, it will take insane minds to create new things these days. lol.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

hmm yeah, glad to see you guys agree. it's definitely true how the punishes work, but i wasn't really trying to look at that as much. less so than the punishes, i wanted to look at the ability to make openings. how each character follows up after that is a different discussion to me. it seemed preposterous to me to suggest that ganon could get a hit without a mistake.

it may have just been my friends elevated rambling though, just being upset about making mistakes and me punishing them. because any read i get is a mistake by my opponent. and any hit i get is due to a read.

 

[Superspright]

Ganon lacks the 'tools' to punish at their levels. Ganon has to capitalize on EVERYTHING. He's an all or nothing character. A lot of characters at the higher echelons get leeway in what they do, or can cover multiple options easier.

Ganon would need to find some new option that would allow him to capitalize on things far easier, or just some new utility that breaks a matchup or evens it up. The metagame is pretty much fully evolved--but I could be wrong.

 

[Divinokage]

Well now's definitely no longer the time to be depressed about it. I have to keep going at this!

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Ganon theory is best theory.

 

[LoOshKiN]

Ganon theory is best theory.

theoretical pseudo-scientific black wizard wins

 

[Superspright]

Ganon in theory cannot really win. People can get in and out of his space pretty easily. He has to make effective reads on people to win. He can barely react to most things--jab doesn't get em all, and sh uair is too slow, and ftilt can be baited into a grab. But, I like reading minds. It's the only way to play.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Actually, Ganondorf, in theory, has the largest penis in the game.

My studies have shown this to render everything else in the game as irrelevant.

 

[Divinokage]

New way to edgeguard spacies when they Forward-B onto the stage.

Instead of Jab.. Upsmash crotch hitbox.. there's no way in hell they'll come back. lol. (Though that requires more prediction rather than timing.)

 

[Bl@ckChris]

ask any spacie i play, the cockblast is my primary edgeguard in friendlies lol.

i once took a first stock straight from the "GO!" with a fair, and when he tried to side B back on stage, i cockblasted him. as falco, he was too far to recover just from that. LOL.

edit: i will say, as a cockblast connoisseur, that hitbox is rather temperamental at some times. Sometimes it seems to extend forever in front of you, but other times they'll be completely safe landing right in front of you. I guess i need to look at the hitbox frames again but yeah...it's pretty off and on, for me at least.

 

[-ACE-]

...you could have used

THE PUNCH

lol

 

[Divinokage]

Nah the crotch is x10 more satisfying than The Punch lol. Actually I remember doing a team combo on Yoshi's with my friend in tournament this weekend. I upsmashed techchased someone on a platform at 50%, and then when the first hit, hit.. he daired with Falco, and then the 2nd hit of the upsmash hit.. in total it did like 60% dmg already in 1 second into Falco shine off the top, it was freaking awesome.

Or you can do something ridiculous like Dair into Dair.. into crotch hitbox upsmash on a spacie... I think from 0 no matter where he is, he's going to be off-stage lol. But everyone DIs now, so it might not work.. =P

 

[DippnDots]

New way to edgeguard spacies when they Forward-B onto the stage.

Instead of Jab.. Upsmash crotch hitbox.. there's no way in hell they'll come back. lol. (Though that requires more prediction rather than timing.)

i actually did the upsmash to edgeguard an illusion but i was a second too preemptive and he ended up eating both hits and getting popped up, still kinda worth it i suppose, couldn't follow up with anything, but added 40% onto his lazer pewing ***

 

[-ACE-]

crotch blast is more satisfying, yes... but that's partially because it doesn't get landed very often lol. doing a side-b straight into ganon's mid section isn't very smart in general.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well, i think i started doing the usmash when people started going for head height when my jabs and downward ftilts were on point. of course, head height usmash gives the pop-up, but depending on percent, it can be followed. if they don't go head height, the iasa frames usually allow for a downward ftilt if they wait to go for the edge, or something else if they choose to up b.

 

[-ACE-]

it has it's uses, I'm just sorta anti-usmash as far as it being a "go to" strat in most situations... it's a good mixup if you know he's going to side-b into you, but you'd never want to do it enough for it to be predictable.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Sounds like you're anti-dyick, Ace.

The dark lord would be very disappointed.

Also, I feel infinitely accomplished for starting discussion of Ganon's crotch.

 

[Divinokage]

Ganon's crotch is underused! lol.

 

[spider_sense]

I just usually try to shorthop uair to get the option covered if they decide to come at me at head level.

 

[Dorsey]

i deep six spacies with the wizard's foot spike

 

[Superspright]

Crotch attack is good. Ironically his best horizontal smash. That thing kills at 60 on the edge. But, it is SO hard to get off from anything other than dair or a great techread/combo.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I love using fsmash on floaty characters. Nobody expects it. Fsmash is super legit.

All of his smashes are ****.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtZAm9DG7DE&feature=channel_video_title

4:55 classic.

on a side note, i think i've gotten worse at this game lol. i think i'm starting to get back on the right track and mindset, but i feel like i was thinking about the right things moreso in this vid and in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkgYZQ4kTk4 this vid than i have since then. it's frustrating to recognize this fact...but liberating to know that i'm getting back on the right track. sucks to feel like i've been wasting time though. when i couldve been improving, i was busy staying stagnant or getting worse.

time to break out again.

 

[Divinokage]

Excellent combo, hahaha! And what do you mean you've gotten worse? Is it because you are beaten?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

no, i got worse when i stopped thinking about my opponent and just tried to get faster. i was worrying solely about my tech skill/combos and forgot to pay attention to things like spacing/zoning/and adjusting to my opponent. the latter set of skills is essentially much more vital, at least to my improvement, and i forgot about them. it was silly of me.

back on track now, and thinking harder than ever.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

It happens. I know how you feel, though. I've currently hit a wall myself, and I can't seem to improve.

So I'm asking for advice and pushing myself as hard as possible.

 

[Superspright]

I am a wall. So I don't have to worry about it.

 

[spider_sense]

The best way to deal with plauteu is probably to take an extensive break from the game and then get back into, it allows your brain to gain insight and also helps you encompassed everything you've learned up until the break. I'd say about 2-3 weeks without playing and you should be good.