Guide How to Hatch a Healthy Yoshi: A Group Project - Who wants it?

[.Marik]

Yo do you have a deviant art account????

If you are who I think you are those Yoshi shoes are sick man.

srry a little off topic.

Yes, I'm that exact person your talking about. They sure are, eh? Well, I had an DeviantArt account. But I got banned today. For the second time. >_<

 

[Sharky]

Bump to note update: altered tactics section to separate tactics from AT's. Figured some more organization would be helpful to anyone interested in the character.

I also added links to videos detailing all but two AT's (stutter stepping and Yoshi Bomb Cancelling.)

 

[.Marik]

Hey, the-yoshinator, I have to say, this is an amazing thread, and it's very informative, and I always skim through it, to keep up-to date with my maining and information about Yoshi. Kudos to you, very good job, this is one of the best threads I have ever seen in my life, ever. ^^

 

[Sgt. Baker]

Very nice guide guys. I think after placing 7th at a local tournament here where I live with Yoshi I'm going to make him my new main!!!

Seriously, I love how angry people get when they are getting KO'd by the most coolest/unexpected KO'er in Brawl (well, that's how it is to me )

 

[.Marik]

Yah. Yoshi is so much more better than Ganondorf. Srsly.

And also, I dunno what to put really, but I'm gonna start to have Tournament/ Smashfests with people all over the GTA as well as surronding areas, and well, If I need help, I'll ask. =P


But Peach is so annoying, especially when she spams the float move. -__-

And **** Olimar's Pikmen!

*Does egg roll*

Yeah, so does anybody wanna add my MSN? =P

*Needs people to talk too*

I think I'm gonna start to main him in Melee too.

Yoshi is awesome.

 

[1337-Zero]

Just a quick question, do you Yoshi mainers ever use Yoshi's sidestep dodge fakeout? (I don't know what it's called) Or is the technique useless?

 

[Sharky]

Spotdodge (that's the name) can be pretty useful. Just make sure you don't overuse it, as your opponent will begin to punish you when it's over.

 

[1337-Zero]

Spotdodge (that's the name) can be pretty useful. Just make sure you don't overuse it, as your opponent will begin to punish you when it's over.

No, that's not what I mean. Yoshi can spotdodge at any time during his sheild breakout animation. When he's breaking out of his shell, he can technically spotdodge out-of-sheild.
I think it's exclusive to Yoshi.

 

[bigman40]

No, that's not what I mean. Yoshi can spotdodge at any time during his sheild breakout animation. When he's breaking out of his shell, he can technically spotdodge out-of-sheild.
I think it's exclusive to Yoshi.

It's just spotdodging while he's in the out of shield animation. Since Yoshi's shield takes longer to go down, the game still interprets that he's partially in the shield (hence spotdodging late whenever you want to Dsmash immediately out of shield). the only difference is that you can still get hit while he's taking his shield down.

 

[1337-Zero]

It's just spotdodging while he's in the out of shield animation. Since Yoshi's shield takes longer to go down, the game still interprets that he's partially in the shield (hence spotdodging late whenever you want to Dsmash immediately out of shield). the only difference is that you can still get hit while he's taking his shield down.

Yep, that's it. I wanted to know if it was worthless or if it had any interesting uses.

 

[bigman40]

Technically, it sort of messes up Yoshi's buffer system, as you can't buffer a Dsmash or you'll get a dodge , but I don't really see any uses. Maybe someone else will.

 

[Ryusuta]

It should be noted that Yoshi CAN cancel his second jump, just not with his a attacks. He can still cancel his second jump with his specials, however. Canceling the second jump into his specials certainly has some uses.

 

[Mmac]

I manage to cancel his Double Jump with regular attacks a few times, though it was sheer luck and have no Idea what I did ala Super Jump. Plus both time it cost me the match ;_ ;

 

[Ryusuta]

That's strange. I'd like to see a vid of that happening sometime, and maybe we could decipher just what happened.

 

[Sharky]

As mentioned in the OP, I'm going to re-organize the thread in the near future to make it more visually pleasing (big white wall of text for the lose -_-) If there's anything you guys think I should add, let me know! =D

note: I'm already planning on at least linking a few threads, and possibly adding in a ledge-camping section since I like it so much. =P

edit: in case anyone else has noticed, yeah, I've been putting a lot more of my free time into smash, (and yoshi antics) lately. =D

DOUBLEEDIT: ****it, there's company over, and I probably won't have time to do much. >.> Will do ASAP when I get the chance. =/

 

[infomon]

Quick question: what's Yoshi's fastest aerial? I don't care about the hitbox, just the time to finish before he can perform something else.

 

[Chaco]

Quick question: what's Yoshi's fastest aerial? I don't care about the hitbox, just the time to finish before he can perform something else.

Hmm, probably uair actually. Nair keeps the foot up a bit long, bair takes awhile, dair hell no, fair no way.

 

[bigman40]

For the quickest startup and ending lag, Uair is the best move to fit that description. Although, Nair is the quickest aerial that has nearly no startup lag.

 

[Chaco]

I love getting agreed with by Scat, gives me an accomplished feeling. XD No clue why.

 

[infomon]

Alright awesome, thanks guys!

I dunno if this is already known by y'all Yoshis, but Yoshi benefits from a newly-discovered exceptional phenomenon. The G&W's call this "Bucket Cancelling", but it works with Yoshi's side-B and DK's up-B.

As you prolly already know, side-B stops all your aerial momentum. But did you know this can help you survive some ridiculous would-be-KOs, both horizontally and vertically?

After you escape hitstun early with your fastest aerial (Uair for Yoshi, apparently), using a Jump or a momentum-changing Special generally causes an extra boost to your knockback, pushing you further away from the stage. This stops moves like Fox's Shine from totally breaking the recovery system, lol.

But Yoshi's side-B is a total oversight -- it halts all your momentum, including knockback!

Check out my demonstration video:
[Crazy Recovery Techniques: G&W Bucket-Cancelling + moar!]

.... unless this is already known here, in which case I'm sorry

 

[bigman40]

Sweet stuff infzy. I would go insane about this, as you mentioned, Egg Roll makes us useless It might come in handy though since we can still have the aerial momentum, but it'll definitely make recovering harder to do. I'll mess around with this after my finals next week and see what I can come up.

EDIT: Also, no one knew about this since we never used Egg roll for any type of recovering.

 

[infomon]

Alrighty, then awesome... congrats Yoshi, you can now survive long-distance KOs better than Bowser. Rawr!

The egg-roll isn't so bad if you cancel it right away, since Yoshi's aerial mobility is so good (in the top 5 I think?); you might be able to recover. It's better than getting KO'd lol, and I reckon you gain like 20%+ recovery ability for long-range KOs in real matches.

 

[Sharky]

Actually infzy, Yoshi's got the top horizontal aerial speed. Granted, his acceleration isn't nearly as good as Wario and Jigglypuff, but once he gets going he has them beat. =)

Nice discovery there, too. =D I propose Egg Dropping as the name for this for Yoshi. =)?

 

[Mmac]

It's a cool find, But I just can't get over the fact that he's completely defenceless when doing this. Even if it does make him live at pretty high percents, he can easily be edgehogged or intercepted doing this.

It makes my quest on finding an Egg Roll Cancel even more important though.

 

[Poltergust]

Maybe we can find a way to actually increase Egg Roll's speed in the air? Just like it was in Melee?

If we can't, then we can only really use this for walk-off stages and vertical KOs. However, if we can, Yoshi would be the second hardest character to outright KO next to DK.

 

[Ryusuta]

How hard is this to do in a practical scenario? From that video, it looks like all of the momentum cancels were done at 1/4 speed (or possibly 1/2). If it can't be done on reaction (or at least on anticipation like Link's Z air ledge cancel for certain down smashes), it might not be all that helpful.

 

[infomon]

Eh, in the vid I just put it to 1/4 speed to show off some very ridiculous scenarios; near the bleeding edge of what is possible. In practice, you can still survive a lot of stuff. You can mash the button to quickly get in the Uair, then buffer the side-B.

Edit: Remember, you still have half-your-knockback-distance dead-time before you can even use the Uair, so that gives you time to prepare for it. It's easier than DI!

 

[Ryusuta]

That's pretty crazy. It could end up being just the thing to have Game & Watch topple Snake in the tier list.

 

[Chaco]

I need to try this tomorrow. XD

 

[Mmac]

I did some research, and I think this is blown out of proportion for all three characters. I did some tests with Yoshi's DI, Attacks, and the Egg Drop, and this is what I got. The test were done at the Middle of FD, using MetaKnight's Dsmash

No DI - 132
DI, No Attack - 143
DI W/ Bair+Jump - 149
DI W/ Bair+EggDrop - 160

Overall, the EggDrop only saved roughly 10%. Although I haven't tested with the Airdodge (Maybe I should), even if it did stop the momentum, I was way too low to recover from the break out. I do not think it's worth the risk.

However, I might have found a substitute. Egg Reversing (B-Stick up while holding backwards where your facing (So in this case, DI TOWARD Death!). Naturally it reverses the momentum, but from quick testing in knockback, it might actually save a few more percents horizontal wise because it contests with the momentum, sending you straightish up. I tested this with extreme conditions (Ie. Dedede's Fsmash at 160) and wasn't too impressed, but it might be helpful for saving a few percents in a realistic scenario.


Edit: With Airdodge, Combine with Jumping you can live up to 152%, so thats the best option for DI'ing. Egg Dropping out of Airdodge works up to 163%. I estimate that Egg Reversing from Airdodge would work until about 159%

Remember, this is horizontal values

 

[Depster]

Remember though, the vertical KO aspect of this tech still does wonders. Don't forget the huge priority boost from bouncing in the egg

 

[Mmac]

But what if they chase you with an aerial?

 

[Depster]

cancel and fastfall maybe? there really are more options than we're giving this I think

 

[infomon]

Mmaaaaaaaac....

I really can't reproduce your numbers. However, you're right that this "egg braking" (the G&W ppl call it "bucket braking" now, lol), doesn't really help all that much. At least not on small/medium sized stages, anyway. It helps the most on long-distance KOs, particularly on big stages; the amount of improvement you'll get, and indeed the recovery method you should use, is really dependent on the distance you're going to travel and proximity to both the side and ceiling killzones.

I don't know why you say you should airdodge; Yoshi's fastest aerial is his Uair (not his Bair; I've found a situation where I can only survive with his Uair not not his Bair, lol), and surely the Uair is faster than Yoshi's airdodge... maybe by about 10 frames? Just a guess. And you can fastfall an aerial whereas you can't fastfall an airdodge, so using an aerial should be strictly better than ever using an airdodge, as a method of cancelling hitstun so you can avoid the killzones.

Now, I'm also unable to reproduce the effect you describe using Yoshi's B-reversed / wavebounced / reverse B-sticked / whatever you want to call it, up-B. I've noticed that if you're in knockback (after you've escaped hitstun), using Yoshi's up-B causes an extra boost away from the stage. Furthermore, I get the same effect no matter how I perform the up-B, I wasn't able to get any sort of momentum-change from B-sticking it while I'm in knockback. Is there something I'm missing? Are you sure you were performing it during knockback? I recommend testing on a large custom stage so that you can see Yoshi clearly during the entirety of his knockback trajectory.

Anyway, I just spent a long time experimenting with Yoshi on FD, since I couldn't reproduce your numbers... here are MY numbers They illustrate some interesting things... man, recovering with Yoshi is tricky.

This is in training mode on Final Destination. I'm using the back side of MK's Dsmash, which hits for 13 damage. MK is always positioned to the left of Yoshi, hitting him to the right. The numbers indicate the lowest damage I can give to Yoshi where he will die; that is, I can get him to survive at any lower percent, using the specified recovery method.

Yoshi's teetering at the right edge of FD:

No input: 77
Leaning towards the stage (after hitstun starts; no DI): 83
Bair > Jump: 84
Uair > Jump: 85 (Uair is faster than Bair)
DI up + lean towards the stage: 105
DI up + Uair > Jump: 113
Anything involving side-B is death; since we're too far horizontally, and not high enough vertically.
Since we were dying off the side, it doesn't matter if we fastfall the Uair or not.

Yoshi's at the very centre of FD:

No input: 117
Leaning towards the stage (no DI): 125
Uair > Jump: 135
side-B is death, with no DI.

DI up + lean towards the stage: 153
DI up + Uair > Jump: 152 (yes, this is worse! Since the jump would kill us off the top)
DI up + fastfall Uair > Jump: 159 (we're at the corner, but die from the side killzone)
DI up + fastfall Uair > Jump > side-B: 160

So there's our first example where we needed to Jump to avoid the side, but needed to cancel the Jump with a side-B so we avoid the ceiling.

DI up + Uair > side-B: 157 (we're in the corner, but seem to die from the ceiling at 157% or higher)
DI up + fastfall Uair > side-B: 166

In that last option, at any higher % we could still survive the hit, but be too far sideways to grab the ledge as we return to the stage. Note, I'm cancelling the side-B as soon as I can, since we have more mobility in the falling state afterwards, than during the egg's drop.

It's quite possible that there's an optimal way to DI that Dsmash, where we can use a better combination of fastfalled Uair > Jump > side-B that would survive at or beyond 166%.

MK teeters at the left edge of FD:

No input: 146
Leaning towards the stage: 155
Uair > Jump: 169 (at the corner, looks like we die off the ceiling)
FF Uair > Jump: 169 (same result, but it looks like we die off the side now, lol)
side-B is death, without DI.

Uair > Jump > side-B before we hit the ceiling: 175
fastfall Uair > Jump > side-B before we hit the ceiling: 174 or worse.

In that case, there's a VERY delicate tradeoff. We want to fastfall the Uair, which gives us more vertical space, so we can spend more time jumping. The only purpose of the jump, though, is to gain us as much height as possible, before we start the side-B; so that the side-B can be cancelled early enough, that our drift towards the stage will allow us to grab the ledge. However, we're still flying away horizontally during the Jump; Yoshi's Jump isn't very effective at counteracting knockback.... I mean, it fights knockback, but we're still travelling away from the stage throughout almost the entirety of the jump; we're just flying towards the side slower than if we hadn't jumped. Anyway, fastfalling the Uair is basically undoing the point of using the Jump itself, which is to gain us height. This is why it was slightly better not to fastfall the Uair, and use the side-B quite quickly after the Jump.

God that was complicated

Finally,
Di up + fastfall Uair > side-B: 168 (this is bad now, since DI'ing straight up sends us over the top.)

From the left side of FD heading right, MK's Dsmash sends us at almost directly towards the stage corner; so that's about as good a "long distance KO" as we'll find on FD, with which to experiment with these recovery tactics.

Still, you'll see the relative gain from using side-B as a recovery measure increase a lot on larger stages, especially with walk-off edges.

 

[Chaco]

I'm with Infzy, those numbers seem accurate. And I'm pleased with what Mmac has done here, using egg toss momentum might make him live realllly longer. You DI Up, Uair, and reverse egg momentum. your going to be going to opposite way. Or come to a complete halt. It's definitely worth looking into further.

But I agree with Dep, egg bouncing does give you priority over some smashes even. It's worth it on vertical. As for horizontal def try testing out the egg momentum more. I think it'll be the best bet.

 

[Sharky]

With the arguments over the usefulness of it aside, I've added the EggDrop to the techniques section, complete with warnings of its limited usefulness. I've also added the single naner lock on Diddy, with a (I think) decent description of the process. As stated here and in the banana thread, I'm working on an infinite and will try to put up a video of the basic lock over the weekend.

 

[teh_w0lf]

I'm not a yoshi player myself but my friends and I noticed a change in yoshi between launch copies and more recent copies of brawl. In the launch version yoshi is able to second jump AFTER his up-b...this is helpful for obvious reasons such as preventing edge-guarding. In the newer version yoshi is unable to do this. Has anyone else noticed this???

 

[Poltergust]

Um... are you sure that tap jump is off?

 

[Sharky]

what poltergust said. Tap-jump on=you'll use your second jump when you up-b by hitting up.
tapjump off=you don't use your jump when you hit up, and you keep your jump.

 

[SOVAman]

What they said its all about tap jump and whether or not its on

pro tip: with yoshi turn off tap jump.