How Super Smash Bros Brawl SHOULD be.

[Harry Megamix]

Lol...that actually made me laugh.

Why is Japan a scrub?

 

[NES n00b]

The competative Japanese smashers play "honorably". . . . . . . . . . .they complain if someone chaingrabs and stuff. They also don't like rest combos in ssb64. Eh. Not all of them are scrubs, but alot of them are.

Have you played Kid Icarus to get the example, because I don't think I explained that well.

Edit: You definitely need to answer that tourney question I had. How do you win without advance techs if other people are using them?

 

[Harry Megamix]

Yes, I've played Kid Icarus. Is this turning into an example?

P.S: Isn't Bombsoldier Japanese?

 

[NES n00b]

Yes he is. . . . . . . . .not sure if he is a scrub or not. Not a big enough scrub to get rid of advance techs definitely.

You know when you fight the last boss. Well, there is an easy way to do it. This is an example of an exploit. It isn't cheating, but it was not intended. why not take advantage and beat the boss when you know the pattern and can just beat her?

Edit: How you do it. The last boss of Kid Icarus you can beat Medussa by standing near the middle but a little lower and shooting Medussa and the snake.

 

[Harry Megamix]

Hmmm...I never thought of that. That's kind of clever.

But it's not the same thing. Why? Because in tournament play, you're playing against other people. It's fair, if you only play other people who use advanced techs. But the consequences of going against someone who does, when you're someone who doesn't, is, more often than not, defeat. Why do they lose? Only because they refuse to indulge in an exploit that cheapens both the used-against and the use-ee (that's not a word ).

When you're playing against people, it's a different matter. It's competetive. And it's only fair that both sides have an equal starting chance at winning. The tourney-goers take so much care in making each match perfectly advantage-free, and they go through the trouble of banning stages and items so that there's no question as to the balance of the game. I don't have a problem with not using items, or only using certain stages for serious skill play. It's just the use of unintended exploitation during competitive, serious play, which means that when someone who simply chooses not to use this exploitation goes up against someone who does, 9 times out of 10 the exploiter comes out on top.

 

[NES n00b]

But the person can just learn to use these "explotations". Nobody is stopping them from learning these tatics, glitches, or what have you. What if people refused to use the a button or the second jump (just bear with me, I know that these are intended), do you have to cater to these people, too? Or better yet, the people that think rolling is cheap. Thankfully, none of these people come to tournaments (scrubs of other kinds still do =/).

If the person doesn't take the time to learn advance techs, then the person is usually not competative enough to practice and be able to beat tourney goers anyways (with or without advance techs). The most likely response: "Why don't they not use them then?" For one when facing each other, nobody in that play circle cares if the other is using glitches or what have you. 2. They want to win, so they want to play their best. 3. Why not? It only benefits using them.

 

[Harry Megamix]

You kind of backed me into a corner there. There's several things I could have said, but I can probably predict what you would respond with.

I guess you're right in a sense. Why not? I can't really answer that. If I say because it wasn't intended, we're just going in circles. I really don't see why not. It wouldn't apply to me, however, because I've used advanced techniques before, but I guess in most cases it comes down to pure laziness. People don't want to take the time to learn the techs, so they try and shove their mentality into other people's faces, hoping it will change their minds and bring others down to their level to make it easier on them.

Me, I don't know whether or not I will still use advanced techs. I'm far from actually placing even in the top ten in most tourneys, but I do fairly well for someone who doesn't use them. However, I believe you've made a good point, and I applaud you for it. Good argument, and I believe I'm better because of it.

 

[NES n00b]

Glad we had a civilized debate. =D

Usually, these turn into flame wars with personal insults and stuff. I think there are many different reason for people not using advance techs and then trying to spread the mentality to not use them.

Also, good to hear that you can do well without advance techs. What character do you use in tournies, I use mostly Link.

 

[Harry Megamix]

Mario/Dr. Mario, and I'm slightly skilled with Luigi. You use Link, you say? He's pretty low tier (as are my characters). How well do you fare?

 

[NES n00b]

Not that well. . . . . but I fare pretty well for a Link player. XD Haven't been playing for long. . . . . . . . the curse of learning about tournies far too late. In addition, I use Mario and Luigi. Yay! I also play Falcon and Marth, but I use Link more than any of these characters. Hopefully, my performance is enough to warrant power ranking in mid south since I didn't start in time to be considered for power ranking (I would have not made it back then anyways). I got vids of me online if you want to see me play with my characters. Better Link vids will come soon (I don't have that much of my Link for some reason, something I am trying to rectify).

On topic, play the way you want. =D

 

[Harry Megamix]

Thanks...from what I've heard, it's important to try and post on topic, or you get points for spamming.

Go ahead and post your vids, or if they're in another thread already, paste the link and I'll go take a look.

 

[greenblob]

Actually, the Japanese don't care about rest combos. It's just not as common because the Japanese version of Smash 64 has a much weaker rest.

The "unintended" thing is pointless--you could argue that for almost everything, from a combo that someone discovered to the neglect of certain moves (such as Sheik's chain or Falcon's Falcon Punch). It was never intended that you connect certain moves that way, and it was never intended that you don't use those moves.

I think the best way to go about this is to compare advanced techs in Smash to advanced techs in other activities. For example, I play ping pong. One technique that's fairly common is spinning the ball. If you know how to spin the ball use that effectively, you'll be at an advantage over someone who doesn't. Is that fair? Of course. You are at an advantage because you know more. Similarly, Smash isn't about button mashing--knowledge is a big part of the game too.

 

[NES n00b]

Oh really. The more you know about why Japanese don't use rest combos. XD I think the arguement has been resolved for now.

I sent a PM about the the vids Harry Megamix.

Ummmm. . . . . . .on subject, I like the bumper better than the flipper. So yay for it returning. I might use the bumper once in a while (put the setting for bumpers on very high) for nostalgia of old ssb. I am pretty flexible actually when it comes to how this game is supposed to be played. =D

 

[psicicle]

How super smash bros brawl should be?

Hopefully the ice climbers will make a return, I've built up so much skill in using them, and hope that they make a return along with desyncs and stuff.

Also, I hope crawling can be done quickly and can be cancelled by jumping or putting up the shield and stuff like that

 

[konoha107]

How Brawl should be? Well, for one, I really don't think EVERYONE from Melee should return. After all, people kinda have to have a reason to play Melee after Brawl is released, right? Maybe everyone except two or three characters should return.
Also, someone else said (although I can't remember who) that some characters like Dr. Mario should be kept, but moved to alternate costume status, pills and all. Kinda like Daisy was an alternate costume for Peach in Melee. The same goes for a couple other clone sets, like Marth/Roy or Samus/Dark Samus (if she's in Brawl).

 

[the grim lizard]

I really wish people would stop saying, "Here, I'll make it simple..." And then proceed to post a 10 foot paragraph. Putting it simply is like this:

There will be advanced techniques in the game whether they intend them or not. They may or may not be the same ones as Melee, but regardless, competitive players will find them and use them and they will become the new standard for playing competitively. Nothing that any casual players says will change it.

 

[Octillus]

I just hope this doesn't become a game of performance enhancement. I hate drugs.

As a player who never will play in a tournemant but uses adv. tech just frustrate the crap out of my friends, I feel like these little back and forths are kind of annoying.

Everyone should just grab a few beers and calm down.

Also, don't drink and drive.

Unless you really really have to...

 

[whiterob]

I can't wait until next week when I get to read another thread just like this because someone gets their panties in a bunch. Threads like this should be closed once they get 2 pages deep.

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

But the person can just learn to use these "explotations". Nobody is stopping them from learning these tatics, glitches, or what have you. What if people refused to use the a button or the second jump (just bear with me, I know that these are intended), do you have to cater to these people, too? Or better yet, the people that think rolling is cheap. Thankfully, none of these people come to tournaments (scrubs of other kinds still do =/).

If the person doesn't take the time to learn advance techs, then the person is usually not competative enough to practice and be able to beat tourney goers anyways (with or without advance techs). The most likely response: "Why don't they not use them then?" For one when facing each other, nobody in that play circle cares if the other is using glitches or what have you. 2. They want to win, so they want to play their best. 3. Why not? It only benefits using them.

Well first off, if someone actually refused to use a button on the controller for any reason besides "my thumbs are too short to reach it", I'd be the first one to smack them upside the head.

Secondly, someone can be competitive enough to practice their head off but not learn advanced techniques because they don't want to, because it goes against what their beliefs concerning the game are.

Lemme give an example. In Yu-Gi-Oh, tournaments are usually dominated by one or two decktypes. And if you don't play these decktypes then you usually get steamrolled in the first or second round. This is frustrating, because people just take these decks from the internet and then assemble the decks without using a single ounce of creativity. For people who carefully design their decks but then get beaten anyway, this is very annoying.

Granted, it's not the exact same thing as Smash Bros since you have to put a bit more effort into advanced techniques, but still, it's the same basic principle, and it's still very annoying.

But, whatever. I probably won't complain anymore once Brawl comes out, since I'll just be able to have as many "casual" tournaments as I want on /v/. But, for the moment, it still gets under my skin.

Edit: By the way. Stop using the term 'Scrub'. Just please, stop. I don't care if you're not referring to anyone in this thread, it's still comparable to using a racial slur (granted to a lesser degree, but it's still offensive), even if you're not referring to anyone in specific at the time.

 

[Superstar]

A scrub you say?

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/introducing-the-scrub/

This is a scrub, scrubs are not people that stink. Also, learning advanced techs can be against your beliefs, but people shouldn't complain about it when other people use it, gets downright annoying... Also, there are tournament players that are scrubs as well, and are annoying anyways.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/how-far-should-you-go-to-win/
For those that call playing to win cheating, how far you should go to win.

And something the same guy put in another article

You should recognize the level of commitment you are willing to live with for a particular game, and be content with it. There are a few games I take very seriously, and the rest I simply enjoy as much as I can with my limited commitment. For example, I have read many books on chess and played chess occasionally over the years. On the whole though, I am a terrible player. During a game of chess, I do everything I can (within the scope of the game) to win, but I do very little to improve myself over the long haul. I am not a member of the chess community, I do not seek out superior chess players as mentors, and I do not even seek out the readily available wealth of opponents free to play on the internet. In a very limited way (during a particular game only), I “play to win,” but the whole endeavor of chess playing is an occasional “fun” activity for me, not a serious attempt to dominate the chess world. I’m comfortable with that, because I realize I can only dominate so many worlds.

So Playing to win is not always equal to learning the techs, you can still play to win WITHOUT the techs, though if you don't use any techs at all you will be dominated by a decent player.

 

[NES n00b]

The point is that nobody is stopping these people from learning advance techs or forcing them to use the techs. Go to a tourney without advance techs, you will lose, but it is your choice how you play against your opponent and what character you use. Just like it is the people's choice if they want to use inferior decks in Yugioh (which is more like character tiers in this game but eh).

 

[Takeshi245]

Good points, NES n00b and Superstar.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

viewtiful jeff: about everything you said: WELCOME TO COMPETATIVE GAMES.

if you dont want to do the best thing in the game reguardless of what it is, then your choosing not to win. honor is for REAL LIFE. video games are just GAMES. they are us playing. your saying the competative people are taking them so serious with all our rules and "cheating". yet your the ones stating "id feel bad if i won using this stratagy"

logic = if you could beat a certian player with one move and JUST one move. do it. why?

well lets look at the options, if you continue to do it, the player will either learn to overcome it, or lose to it forever , or stop playing. so lets weight those, if they quit? they obviously didnt care enough anyway. if they overcome it, AWESOME , they just got better as a gamer.

ok so you dont do it, or do it occasionally, no one gains anything, no one loses anything, because the person is "well as long as he dosent do that move ill win" and your "well im being honorable"

no, what your doing is taking AWAY from the game, and the players playing it. your dumbing it down, using worse options, choosing to not play your best. theres a difference if your tyring to say, teach someone, or someone is just new, or your feeling sympathetic. etc.

where as i run that option ito the ground, and my imaginary "beat by one move" friend, learns to overcome it, because he loves the game. sweet, he practice and practiced and now if i do the move, he hurts ME for doing it. so now its a mind game, in "situation a" will i do that move? or will i use another worse option because of the players expectance? or will he keep his cool and take the safe approach and assume ill do it, or will he press the advantage assuming i wont? or MAYBE he got good enough as a player to see which one im doing and react to it? thats a whole new SET of things and options and ideas.

and i dont know about you, that sounds alot more fun than doing the same crap over and over and gaining nothing from it.

aka "whoops, you got a *insert item used effectivly* looks like i lost again!"

side note about yugioh: i RUN a mid tier deck because i like the cards, what do i do? i find ways to make it work as best it can, try to have a variable and strong side deck so i have better options mid set.

if you find all those things annoying, playing video games against other people should not be something you invest time in. because this country as of late is getting a wake up call on competitive gaming in general, if you choose to play a certian way, and it loses to mine, dont complain , its your choice to play that way, or at all.


now for harry:

chess wasent designed to be played with agressive rush down strats and single peice mix ups. but it is.

super turbo wasent meant to be played with safe fierce fireballs, but you can kara them.

Guilty Gear wasent "meant" to have jump install. (neither was HNK)

Tekken wasent "suposed" light dashing, jump cancled throws, fuzzy guarding, un-seeable 50/50s etc. etc.

if most games were played "as intended" they would die and have no replay.

speed runs? super plays? those werent intended. technically, if you want to be a ****, most game developers dont even intend for you to have fun, they intend to make money, if you having fun happens to get them more money, then theyll do it.

poker is all luck, and THEN strategy, all the strat is all when to bet/how much when to call, or fold.

skate boards werent made to fly off the ground and spin in cool ways. (neither were bikes.. or skates.. etc. all that jazz)

cherry syrup wasent made for cola, it was made for cherry soda. but ill be ****ed if its not good as hell in pepsi.

so essentially, yeah, all the stuff i said to jeff is double for you. if you dont like it, keep losing, or stop playing. if you want to learn and get better as a gamer and a person, im all for it.

either or, complaining will get you nowhere with either. (excuse some of my post being rehash other peoples comments)

side note: scrub is a racial slur..? what? thats the first ive ever heard of that.

 

[Harry Megamix]

...that was a little harsh, on account of I already said you guys were right, but okay, continue the merciless bashing.

most game developers dont even intend for you to have fun, they intend to make money, if you having fun happens to get them more money, then theyll do it.

Lol, I just had to quote that, it's completely true.

BTW, I never said I've never used advanced techs or don't use them--I was just against using them.

 

[NES n00b]

I don't think most people read the entire thread. -_-

I still like his post because it is compilation of most of what we all said with some personality and stuff of his own.

Edit: Props for the examples

 

[Harry Megamix]

Well then, whenever you get another "scrub" in here, just quote that ******* so there's no more unnecessary, repeated discussion. Sometimes in certain threads, discussions / arguments go on around and around and around...

It's kind of ridiculous. Just make a mega-post like that and be done with it.

 

[the grim lizard]

This is stupid. It's like saying you shouldn't foul at the end of a Basketball game to try to win because James Naismith didn't say in the rules of Basketball that you could.

 

[NES n00b]

I'll just say read page 22 to 23. I swear that all the points are covered in those two pages alone.

On a side note, have you seen the vids yet? If so, what do you think? =D

 

[Limey]

I said this in the other thread, but not this one, i think.

I disagree completely with removing all advanced techniques. That'll completely wipe the fun for competitive players, and it's not as if casual players like myself are forced to use them.

But i insist that it would take a much greater amount of skill to beat someone who used advances techniques effectively while not using any yourself.

If someone could play a match without using any ATs and still beat someone who knew how to use them perfectly, it would impress me greatly.

 

[Salaad]

Wow, I'm just about tired of this thread. Why don't people get over it? Seriously....If you have problems with Advanced Techs. Deal with it, the worlds not going to end..We can play with advanced techs and you can play with items. We don't care, just don't bring up "But j00 guyz play on liek 6 stages and no itemz so j00r taking out all duh fun!1!1" and no more of using the term"Scrubs"

 

[Superstar]

smash_fan, it would impress me greatly as well, cause you would have to be God to beat a a person who uses them "perfectly". Seriously, its true. And the person should use some advanced techs, to be even greater.

But wait, in one handed smash very little techs are used, if any at all, so these people should be good as well. [Actually, I know nothing of one handed smash, better search the boards, last I heard you can get shoulder button usage].

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

Wow, I'm just about tired of this thread. Why don't people get over it? Seriously....If you have problems with Advanced Techs. Deal with it, the worlds not going to end..We can play with advanced techs and you can play with items. We don't care, just don't bring up "But j00 guyz play on liek 6 stages and no itemz so j00r taking out all duh fun!1!1" and no more of using the term"Scrubs"

Nobody's got a gun to your head.

 

[Bassoonist]

Seriously Viewtiful_Jeff, the fact that they're using such things in tournaments won't hurt you. Let them be.

You can use items all you want, as is what I will do. We can all get along if we just stop telling each other how to play their games. SSB is great in that it doesn't force us to play a certain way.

 

[Salaad]

Nobody's got a gun to your head.

You know what?

You still havn't told me the flaws in my logic, I answered back and you simply ignored. Let me find it now....

Did I ever say that they are in the same time zones? In fact, what I'm saying is that they are not in the same timezones and THATS why their matches need to be scheduled beforehand. Did I ever say that there is a very low amount of casual players? Socialization...Tell me, can you socialize whilst playing a match online? Is there a microphone? You have got it backwards, you are assuming that I think there are not a lot of casual players and they are in the same time zone and VoIP...meh..

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Ok Viewtiful_Jeff, for the first time, i'm not going to be an ******* when posting this.

Your first argument is "I can't win without abising obscure techniques".

First of all, I would like to inform you that tournament play is far more difficult than just spamming a few techniques. I use to believe that abusing techniques=win, but it doesn't. When you enter a tournament, it's obvious that everyone knows the requiered techniques to play the game on a more advanced level, so it's up to your mental skill.

Knowing specific match ups and mindgames contribute more than you would think.For example: I was Sheik and my opponent kept techning my throws away from me, so I would tech chase> Grab. My opponent thinks that if he keeps teching away he'll get grabbed again, so I decide to mix up my game plan as he does. My opponent decided not to tech, so I D-tilt>F-tilt>Fair combo him because he didn't tech. There are far too many options in the game than to just wavedash. And the few common techniques that you know of really aren't all of them. There is:

-Crouch Canceling
-JC Grab
-Edge Canceling
-Edge Techning
-Ledge Hopping
-U-smash/Up+B Out of shield
-ASDI(Automatic Smash Directional Influence)
-Smash DI
-Shield Grab
-Pivot
-Ledge Hop
-Float Cancel
-DJC(Double Jump Cancel)
-Jab Cancel
-Power Shielding
-Chain Grab

In theory, I think that you should try to understand the competative community before you make assumptions on how we play based on YouTube videos.

Second Argument "Smash is for fun and should be played for fun etc."

Yes, smash was intended to be a party game, but was also intended to be played in a variety of ways other than the way it was presented. Because you think a game is fun your way doesn't mean we don't find the game fun our way. A lot of us actually find organized tournament style gameplay fun. I remember when I used to play FFA's with items, the game got stale and boring. Then I discovered the competative scene, and now I can't stop playing it. Smash Bros. wouldn't be popular if it didn't offer variety

Opinions of fun are biased depending on the person. One may thinking having a random crazy FFA match is fun, and another person may find organized and competative fighting fun.It's only a matter of what you like, not another person.

Find your own definition of fun insted of thinking yours is valid.

Third Argument "I can't get good in smash because I don't want to practice"

Well...Duh.

It's the facts of life, you can't expect to accel in something you don't strive to perfect. The only way to become good at a game is to practice.

Professionals in general don't become professionals immediatly, it requieres dedication and practice. Why do you think you should be able to achieve what others have without any imput? It's completely lazy and unethical. No one is forcing you to play smash on a competative level, but if you refuse to dedicate yourself and practice you will fail. It works just the same in life.

The way we play shouldn't affect the way you play at all, So why can't we play on our terms without sinking to your level? Perhaps you're just envious.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Viewtiful_Jeff if you turn the item switch to ''ON'' in your copy of melee, I will track you down, hunt you, and kill you.

Dylan_Tnga has warned you.

And yes I am serious. I play with tournament rules and despite there already being a competitive community, I will take it upon myself to personally take a plane to the house of all casual players and force them to play smash without items by force.


And if you believe any of this, I'll kill you.

XD


edit : whoops, just saw phoenix's post.

Pretty much everything he said? Yeah, that's what I would have posted if I wasn't tired of doing so. Read his post and not mine

 

[the grim lizard]

Yeah, ledge jumping is a hecka lot harder than WDing. Trying to do an attack out of it? fugetaboutit...that takes a lot of practice...way more practice than WDing does. The timing is insane. And this is the kind of stuff that will help you totally control your game and make your opponent think twice about edge-guarding. And I can guarantee you that there is no way they are going to take the time to prevent ledge jumping from being done.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Viewtiful_Jeff if you turn the item switch to ''ON'' in your copy of melee, I will track you down, hunt you, and kill you.

Dylan_Tnga has warned you.

And yes I am serious. I play with tournament rules and despite there already being a competitive community, I will take it upon myself to personally take a plane to the house of all casual players and force them to play smash without items by force.


And if you believe any of this, I'll kill you.

XD


edit : whoops, just saw phoenix's post.

Pretty much everything he said? Yeah, that's what I would have posted if I wasn't tired of doing so. Read his post and not mine

I just wanted to take the time to say this:

OMG HELL YES!! Dylan's back!! ; )

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Yeah, ledge jumping is a hecka lot harder than WDing. Trying to do an attack out of it? fugetaboutit...that takes a lot of practice...way more practice than WDing does. The timing is insane. And this is the kind of stuff that will help you totally control your game and make your opponent think twice about edge-guarding. And I can guarantee you that there is no way they are going to take the time to prevent ledge jumping from being done.

Hmm true, I never thought about it, but ledgehopping specifically with some characters IS among the hardest techniques in the game.

Luckily im not -too- bad at it, but I still actually have to be REALLY careful when I ledgehop knee with falcon, first of all not to get fsmashed by marth, second of all to not kill myself by not landing on the stage, thats the worst way to die, next to missing a tech and airdoding to your doom.

I consider the hardest technique in the game to be Reverse Lasering with both fox and falco, not to do once, but to do consistently. The slightest slip up and you illusion, either getting your butt combo'd to high damage or death, or just plain flying off the stage and dying.

Wavedashing I could do that 3 weeks after I started playing melee, along with shorthopping, other techniques such as JC grabs and whatnot I learned way later.

OMG HELL YES!! Dylan's back!!

Hide your daughters. Hide your stupid scrub daughters.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

^^ Ledge Hopping with Marth=

Ledge Hop WaveDash with Fox=

I think i'm going to have to FedEx two knees today.