How Super Smash Bros Brawl SHOULD be.

[Superstar]

Joe, you should REALLY change your first post... At least a footnote edit... Cause:

1) Your first post makes me shrivel up in anger.
2) People judge other people by the first post in a long thread, just like with Dylan's.

You have no hope at all of changing the main tournament metagame, but you could set up another. It might not have as much momentum going but you could still try. Someone in another site told me that he even saw one local tournament where Jiggly was banned due to Rollout... o.O

Same thread I was explaining to him why Jiggly's infinite stall is banned, telling him that its not truely beatable.

 

[Kada]

Yeah, that's totally using glitches constantly to win instead of actually work, right?

Oh, come on now guys, you know he's right. We all know that tech skills makes you win automatically, you just don't want to admit it. All of us competitive smashers have been harboring this secret for far too long, I think It's time I set the record straight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH3SUv8pBVA

Wavedashing = win

Spoiler

Also, Shine-Fu. I'd just like to say that you're a genius. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Yeah. And I'm not suggesting that the jokers be forced back in, I'm suggesting that a second table be set up where a deck with jokers is used.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what all the competitive people have been saying this whole time? Last I checked, you were the one who started this thread by saying the game SHOULD be played with Jokers. Altough, I realize opinions change, I'm a bit late, so maybe you've changed your mind. It seems like a bunch of others haven't, though.

 

[Shine-Fu]

Be more specific in your use of this analogy, if you could. Do you mean that there be two games, or two tournament types? Because in the case of the former, it is impossible, whereas in the case of the latter, nothing is stopping you from going out and creating a tournament where all the casual purists can play (no Advanced Techniques (further abbreviated as AT's), items on, etc.)

The issue is, when this happens, a few things tend to happen.

A. Players who do this, and do it for a while, begin to notice their losses to random elements. The more they improve, the more they notice it. Eventually, they try to remove it. This is the route that west (could be east, I don't remember which locality chose to leave items on) went.

Incidentally, I am all for tournaments like this, because it is a gateway to the more traditional tournaments. Even you may find yourself drawn to upper level play once you have reached the maximum skill possible without AT's.

B. A lot of players will be turned off by enforced house rules against what happens in game (Distinction between in game and out of game, in game being after stage selection). You could nitpick with peaches 'butt bomb' stalling technique being banned, and I can't refute that it is a similar case, however it is also a corner case with one character involving stalling, as opposed to AT's which actually speed up game play, rather than stonewall it.

In short, I encourage you to go and set up a tourney like this, because it will both eventually fuel the larger tournament scene with new players (potentially in the process granting you insight as to our way of play) and will hopefully reach a middle ground. However, you may find this challenging, as once someone hears tournament, they will immediately think AT, no items, etc.

 

[Apollo]

If a "second table" with jokers is going to be there at all, YOU have to do it. Or someone else who thinks like you.

My point is that nobody, no tournament, no host of any smashfest owes it to YOU or people like you to set this table up. You say you don't go to tournaments or don't want to go because you don't like the rules they set up. Well, do something about it. And by that I mean do something other than get on this smash forum and complain about how unfair life is. First you have a problem with "cheats and glitches," then it's having items on or off, then it's stages, then it's whatever you're arguing about now. Start your own tournament, spread your own word and rules. But you're just like this whole entire thread- Too much talk and no walk.

Nobody cares about your stolen crap. I mean, yes I think stealing is wrong, and yes, I do empathize with you as a fellow human being that you've been wronged, but don't bring that up whenever someone says "Start your own tourney."

BTW, the card analogy with the jokers is awesome. And if I could add to it, I would say that putting items in a tournament is like putting wild cards in a poker tournament. But then the same people would just argue about the better players "adapting to the items and stages." That's bull. How am I supposed to "adapt" to my opponent getting a four of a kind just because he got tossed a one-eyed Jack and I didn't? How is my opponent supposed to "adapt" when a heart container drops next to me? Yeah, you could argue that both people have a chance and it's not always going to land next to the worse player or whatever, but randomness, being what it is, says that it is just as likely to be heads 10/10 as it is tails 10/10. That argument doesn't hold water.

 

[Dark_Ermac]

Aweful. Items ruin matches, and stages with cheap gimmicks are fun, but rather trivial. Honestly, the serious pro smasher, who dominates the gameplay and is the main consumer/user, is who the game should be catered around. not the little ten year olds who dont kno what a smash attack it. really, if you want that, go back to SSB on the 64 and leave all us smashers alone.

I was 8 when I got this game... And even then I quickly adapted to the basics, even though I played Mortal Kombat at that time.

I guess I'm just that kind of person...

(I have a friend who says that only queers that do cheap tricks can win... Any way to prove him wrong?)

 

[Superstar]

Show him this article:

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/introducing-the-scrub/

AND

I think someone dropped Luke as a baby.

Techniques
* L-Cancelling - Not a glitch, was in SSB and SSBM, programmed into the game.
* Short hop - Was in SSB and SSBM, programmed into the game.
* Fast fall - Programming into SSB and SSBM, evend had an animation in SSB with a star, not a glitch
* SHFFLc - A combination of the above 3 along with an aerial attack to attack quickly. In SSB you couldn't fastfall during an aerial attack, but in SSBM you COULD, so you can shffl. From its procedure its not a glitch
* Crouch Cancel - Due to the programming of the physics, crouching let's you absorb attacks with no knockback at lower percentages. You can also crouch in order to stop your run and do a Smash attack with the C-Stick
*Crouch Cancel Counter - Taking advantage of the Crouch Cancel to counterattack.
* Powershield - Allows you to block and reflect any attack, humans cannot do it consistently [but can still use it], but CPU's do it all the time.
* Jump/Up-B out of shield/reflector - Programed into the game, not a glitch.
* Shield grab - Since grabbing is Z+A, while shielding you can grab the opponent to punish them for attacking your shield, not a glitch.
* Jump Canceling - Not a glitch, the initial jumping animations somehow stop your run, allowing you to do a standing grab while running. Also good for running Up-Smashes.
* Smash DI - programmed into SSB and SSBM, letting you survive to higher percentages
* Automatic DI - Hold the Control Stick during your flight to alter your angle, programmed into Melee, allowing people to escape combos easier.
* Rising Pound - Using DI on Jiggly's pound to float up on your pound, as DI isn't a glitch neither is this.
* Wall Bombing - Using Peach's side B to scale a wall, not a glitch, the physics just work for it.
* Desynch - Now this IS a glitch, but it actually makes the Ice Climbers worthwhile [without it they suck]. You can control Nana and Popo seperately.
* Wobbling - Using Desynch to grab infinitely with the Ice Climbers, however even then the Ice Climbers aren't that overpowered [but pretty strong].
* Wavedash - Most argued, although the physics itself is intended, the use of it is not, the developers didn't know a good thing when they saw one.
* Waveshine - Combines wavedash and reflector for sweet combos.


Banned in Tournament play
* IC freeze glitch - The Ice Climbers can halt the movement of one character, beat them up inifinitely [they are still in midair], then grab to finish off
* Infinite stalling with rising pounds and wall bombing.

And there are even more techs,

And tell him you get an edghog bonus for edgehogging.

 

[cubaisdeath]

(I have a friend who says that only queers that do cheap tricks can win... Any way to prove him wrong?)

show him this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pS5peqApgUA
that is anything but a cheap trick, but stuff like that can be applied to any game. Daigo just played it really smart, not cheap.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I would like to make a comment on how some causal players seem bewildered as to how Tournament players could find smash fun without the random element.

Here's why

Generally speaking, we, the 'serious' players, prefer a scenario where it is me versus you, with no interference, be it stage or items. This is because, due to the unique properties of the game, you can have a fight where it is based on reactions, timing, judgment calls, and all around, skill. In this way, it is akin to poker. Its a game of skill. Why do you think they take the Jokers out of a poker deck for high level play? The concept is the same as items being off in smash. We get our kicks from being able to prove we are the best at the game that we can be. We love the challenge presented by a genuinely tough opponent. We revel in the ability to out think, out play, and defeat opponents, and we strive ever more to be able to do so.

> This is where our enjoyment comes from <

Specifically, personal growth in skill. We enjoy getting better. We enjoy knowing we will survive more often, get more kills, etc with practice of techniques. Without these advanced techniques, the total skill you can have in the game caps at a certain point, meaning there will be no more room for improvement.

To us, having no more room for improvement kills our enjoyment of the game. We would have nothing to work for. Especially frustrating is that while we would be willing to work at anything to get better, the game won't give us a function to do so. This is why, smash would be largely dead to 'serious' players if they killed the advanced functions. Not enough room for improvement.

Short version, we enjoy the near limitless potential to improve that advanced techniques give us. We aren't suggesting that the deck of poker cards not come with the jokers, just that you let us remove them when we play.

Along with Apollo's statement, I believe this justifies as a great argument.

I would like to personally thank both of you for possesing intelligence.

This is the exact definition of what makes us satisfied in competative smash., the ability to improve, perfect, and play with knowledge and dexterity.

This factor is what seperates us from the casual players. Because to them, it's the fun-game-is-fun idealism that makes smash great.

We play the way we want, and so should you. Just like you said Jeff...

No one's holding a gun to your head.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Someone in another site told me that he even saw one local tournament where Jiggly was banned due to Rollout... o.O

Yeah that is pretty creepy. Thats like one of Jigglypuffs worst moves and is not recommended to use. I mean the only place I see it taking the best effect is in Mute City. Probably some Jiggs user that spams rollouts and the other players aren't good enough to dodge it. I mean, thats pretty easy, but my friend can just grab, u smash, jab, or shine me right out of my rollout.

 

[Dacvak]

I'm keeping mine short and sweet.

Jeff, I hope we'll be able to play Brawl exactly how you view it should be played. I also hope we'll be able to play it like competitive Smashers have been playing Melee. Choice = Win-Win-Win

~Dac

 

[Salaad]

I'm keeping mine short and sweet.

Joe, I hope we'll be able to play Brawl exactly how you view it should be played. I also hope we'll be able to play it like competitive Smashers have been playing Melee. Choice = Win-Win-Win

~Dac

Winner! Dacvak!


Win-Win situation. For future reference he's Jeff, not Joe. xD (I got it mixed up too)

 

[THK]

Just one thing. When it comes to item arguments, why do people use examples that would be turned off anyway? Hammers? Off. Healing items? Off. Starmen and the likes? Off.

 

[Superstar]

Hmm, dunno, I just don't wish to play with items just cause of the random factor, that's it. I will play with items for fun though if the items are like in SSB64 [in Melee they kinda suck].

Also, JigglyMaster, I was thinking the exact same thing. Only reason I get hit by rollout is when my brother is in the bubble and I jump to try to dodge and get pelted in midair, or when I am testing ways to punish Rollout.

 

[DireVulcan]

A very good idea that someone in my crew (Deadly Alliance, which some of you may have heard of) thought that this would be a good idea

First off the REALLY cheap items like anything healing and starman/bob-omb are banned.

then out of the allowed list, you both get to choose two items that you want. setting on low

If you don't like the item your opponent has, then you grab it before he does and throw it out.

That, in tourneys, would be very additional to the depth of the game.

What would help this idea tenfold is if they magically added the ability to fully customize the items so that you can take off capsules and crates, so no more random boom.

simply the rare appearance of balanced items that take mastery to use effectively.

 

[ecstatic]

Shine-Fu wins the topic.

I don't think any tourney-goers here have a problem with two types of tourneys, so really, all of you who want item and all stage and such tourneys, feel free to start your organizing.
But please do it at another forum, as I already posted. A huge majority of the people here are pro-no luck, so we would feel cluttered, and you guys would probably get an extremely low number of applicants. I suggest gamefaqs, or better yet, make a new forums, and advertise it in your sigs here, and make topics about it at gamefaqs.
Let me warn you now, though, that even with the above measures and others you may think of, you still probably won't get as much applicants as the mainstream tourneys, because, although I hate to tell you, most people who will be willing to attend tourneys are also the type that like direct payoff for their hard work (competitive smashers).

 

[SmashChu]

I really wish people would stop saying, "Here, I'll make it simple..." And then proceed to post a 10 foot paragraph. Putting it simply is like this:

There will be advanced techniques in the game whether they intend them or not. They may or may not be the same ones as Melee, but regardless, competitive players will find them and use them and they will become the new standard for playing competitively. Nothing that any casual players says will change it.

Thank You!

 

[Salaad]

Here, I'll make it simple...


This is an essay. This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay.This is an essay. This is an essay. This is an essay. This is an essay. 10 paragraphs.10 paragraphs10 paragraphs10 paragraphs10 paragraphs.10 paragraphs.10 paragraphs.10 paragraphs.10 paragraphs.10 paragraphs.10 paragraphs.10 paragraphs.

Lol, JK.

We should all just get along. xD

 

[PurpleStuff]

Here, I'll make it simple-

Learn to read. I. Know. Your. Small. Brains. Can. Only. Comprehend. Short. Sentences. But. ****. I'm. Sure. Even. You. Can. Read. Dr. Seuss.

Lol, JK.

Let's be friends!

 

[Sheep88]

I'll make it simple.

Loved your opinion. Agreed. This is how it is meant to.

 

[Team Giza]

lots of good stuff about items

Dire... thats good stuff. I would simply love it if the games items were that customizable in it. I have actually done something similar to what you meantioned before; Allowed item list on low, each player picks 3 items from the list to put on. It sucked when boxes exploded but we had alot of fun playing competitively like this. It was fun stuff.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I'll make it simple.

SIMPLE