How Super Smash Bros Brawl SHOULD be.

[Jigglymaster]

I don't play SSBM all the time. I only play it when my friends are over or when I go to a tournament. And of course you will always be righter in your mind than me. And I will always be righter than you in my mind. I guess that makes us even dosn't it.

You know? Whats the point in arguing? Its not like anything will happend. Brawl will still be the same, Melee will still be the same. Nintendo isn't going to come on here and say omg we've gotta make sure that you can't only play on certain stages and you have to have itmes on.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=106060

Go to 4 times the fun

There you will find what you (luke) describe as tech skill. It is one of four things that make up "skill".

It's still not what skill really is.

Hopefully that will shed some light on how the "glitches" do not play the biggest role in smash.

Then why do Smash***s like yourself constantly use them instead of skill?

How old are you? Like 13? Seriously, learn to make a real argument for once.

I'm making a better argument than anyone on this forums has ever made.

I'm glad you think you're "completely right" in your own mind, though...because there is no one else here who agrees with you. What you clearly don't understand is that your comments give you no credibility whatsoever, and they show that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Proof?

EDIT: By definition of skill, I mean one that will tell you who out of 2 people is the more skilled one. Dictionary definitions are more broad in nature, I am asking for one for smash bros.

Definition for skill in Smash Bros.: Not using glitches constantly to win but actually the skill you've gained from playing it.

"When two people use the same glitch, then that is proof they both suck at the game."

I'd like proof of this assertion

Like I said, it doesn't take any skill at all to do a glitch, ever. Skill is something you gain from practice, from having the right posture, etc. NOT using glitches to determine who wins the match.

 

[Linari Sabre]

Luke quit it
Its useless doing this and all your doing is getting people irritated theyre right your wrong
guess I was a scrub believe me on this one and now I do alot of the adv techs now and they did add new depth to the game
I learned them and applied them to FFAs for reason, most work out in the matches such as wding l-canceling
and fast fall (now this one saved my behind from a lot of attacks)

And guess what why cant just there own way and be done with it,ugh
But I wish there was some way that we can combine the two worlds (though impossible)


*sings*
Can you feel that beat /And we can ride the boogie/ Can you feel that beat of love

 

[Jigglymaster]

It's still not what skill really is.

Then why do Smash***s like yourself constantly use them instead of skill?

I'm making a better argument than anyone on this forums has ever made.

Proof?

No your not making a better argument. You just keep on saying the same thing over and over. You don't know what its like to play serioiusly. We don't always use glitches.

You even clearly ignored the fact that I could easily beat you with Jigglypuff even though I won't use your so called "glitches". And if you think your so good at making an arguement then why don't you go over to the ****ed Debate Room.

Also you don't really even know what your talking about because your only a Smash n00b and the people against you are Smash Lords and Apprentices

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

No your not making a better argument. You just keep on saying the same thing over and over.

Same to everyone on these boards, except I actually make sense.

You don't know what its like to play serioiusly. We don't always use glitches.

Glitches shouldn't be used at all to determine skill, that's exactly what I'm trying to point out, but Smash***s always seem to think that just because they know how to pull off certain glitches they can win.

You even clearly ignored the fact that I could easily beat you with Jigglypuff even though I won't use your so called "glitches". And if you think your so good at making an arguement then why don't you go over to the ****ed Debate Room.

No I didn't, I already responded to your Jigglypuff comment. But since you're too much of an idiot to even see that, I'll forgive you, 'kay?

Also you don't really even know what your talking about because your only a Smash n00b and the people against you are Smash Lords and Apprentices

It doesn't matter what your title says, you're still an idiot.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Same to everyone on these boards, except I actually make sense.

Glitches shouldn't be used at all to determine skill, that's exactly what I'm trying to point out, but Smash***s always seem to think that just because they know how to pull off certain glitches they can win.

No I didn't, I already responded to your Jigglypuff comment. But since you're too much of an idiot to even see that, I'll forgive you, 'kay?

It doesn't matter what your title says, you're still an idiot.

Look, even though you did point out my jiggly comment you still didn't understand what I was talking about. I was pointing that out becasue I'm saying that I can easily beat you without using any kind of advanced technuqies. And if you think wavedashing is so cheap then why not just come on to SSB Online, I'm waiting for you to come so I can own you just as easily.

Also I've been playing this game seriously since 2005. You however have never. So we do have much more knowledge than you do. Its kinda hard to argue back when your against a opponent at their homebase. I've learned many thing over the course of my 939 posts, you however have a mearly 26 posts, therefore you are new to the boards and know little about what we do other than wavedashing.

And for the last time advanced techniques aren't glitches. And we don't use them that often.

 

[psicicle]

y'know, I think that luke is just trolling. Nobody can lack so much logic. Case in point is this statement:

"Definition for skill in Smash Bros.: Not using glitches constantly to win but actually the skill you've gained from playing it."

which does not enable one to tell who is more skilled out of two people, and therefore cannot be applied to the topic at hand.

I will address one statement:

"Then why do Smash***s like yourself constantly use them instead of skill?"

It gives an advantage.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

Look, even though you did point out my jiggly comment you still didn't understand what I was talking about. I was pointing that out becasue I'm saying that I can easily beat you without using any kind of advanced technuqies.

Yeah, I'm sure anyone could beat someone else with glitches, no matter how actually skilled the player you're fighting against.

Also I've been playing this game seriously since 2005. You however have never. So we do have much more knowledge than you do. Its kinda hard to argue back when your against a opponent at their homebase. I've learned many thing over the course of my 939 posts, you however have a mearly 26 posts, therefore you are new to the boards and know little about what we do other than wavedashing.

Yeah, I mean, posts totally prove it, right? This is the only forum in existence, right? WRONG.

In any case, I don't need to post anything on the internet to prove my knowledge on glitches, or this sh-tty forum. Like I said I've done all the glitches many times, I know what they're about. They're glitches that don't take skill at all, ever.

And for the last time advanced techniques aren't glitches. And we don't use them that often.

Yes they are, dude, and if you don't use them often why does every Smash*** praise them like they're the best techniques ever? (although I just asked that question earlier)

y'know, I think that luke is just trolling.

It's a mix of both, I'm trolling but I am being completely honest.

Nobody can lack so much logic. Case in point is this statement:

"Definition for skill in Smash Bros.: Not using glitches constantly to win but actually the skill you've gained from playing it."

which does not enable one to tell who is more skilled out of two people, and therefore cannot be applied to the topic at hand.

You don't need to determine skill out of two people, I can easily determine skill by just playing the game normally and constantly getting ACTUAL techniques right instead of using glitches constantly and calling it "skill."

I will address one statement:

"Then why do Smash***s like yourself constantly use them instead of skill?"

It gives an advantage.

Exactly, gives you a cop-out for actual skill, no?

 

[Jigglymaster]

Yes they are, dude, and if you don't use them often why does every Smash*** praise them like they're the best techniques ever? (although I just asked that question earlier)

Because thats what your first impression on us is.

We don't ****ing praise to them. And also wavedashing does not hurt anybody. You've sill got to hurt them.

This is the friekien biggest smash community boards in the entire internet. If this is a ****ty board that must mean all the other smash boards must be this boards little ****lets.

Your not being completely honest because the advanced techniques aren't glitches! They are mearly physics of the game. I mean the IC Freeze Glitch, Link's super bomb Jump, and the yo yo glitch are all glitches.

Also what are you even planning to get out of this argument. Get us to agree with you and change the tourny rules so that your not allowed to use your so called "Glitches" and have all the stages and except for the "boring ones" and turn all the itmes on? I mean you can't possibly see that happening do you? So why argue, all were trying to do is slap you sensless until you understand that your not going to be able to acomplish this.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

Because thats what your first impression on us is.

And I believe it's correct.

We don't ****ing praise to them. And also wavedashing does not hurt anybody. You've sill got to hurt them.

That's not my point, wavedashing or any other glitch should not be acceptable as a type of skill, any sensible fighting game community would tell you that.

Also what are you even planning to get out of this argument. Get us to agree with you and change the tourny rules so that your not allowed to use your so called "Glitches" and have all the stages and except for the "boring ones" and turn all the itmes on? I mean you can't possibly see that happening do you? So why argue, all were trying to do is slap you sensless until you understand that your not going to be able to acomplish this.

I'm not trying to accomplish this, but I'm still right.

 

[Adi]

If it's so **** easy and gamebreaking to use did you ever think about using it yourself you ****ing tard.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Exactly your always going to think what you think is right. And were always going to think what we think is right. Also don't ever judge a book by its cover.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

Exactly your always going to think what you think is right. And were always going to think what we think is right. Also don't ever judge a book by its cover.

So what's your point? Dylan was the one who decided to go in and attack my post, so in a sense it was the forum community members who started this, not me.

 

[Jigglymaster]

So what's your point? Dylan was the one who decided to go in and attack my post, so in a sense it was the forum community members who started this, not me.

Actually Veitifull Jeff started this. Because he made the thread.

Seriously though, whats the point of arguing if nobody loses. I mean the whole day is being wasted just because were sitting on the computer arguing over something stupid that will never end.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I really don't care if you can beat me or not, I'm still righter than you could ever be. Plus, I have better things to do other than play SSBM all of the time.

A little while ago, I said that you were shooting yourself in the foot with these asinine comments. Well, you might as well have taken that gun and pointed it straight between your eyes. That statement alone has killed ninety-nine percent of your argument right there; I'm not even going to bother to further reinforce this fact with the rest of your post, considering that it's mostly conjecture.

As a proponent of the "get a life" club, I can see what you mean. There's more to life than just Smash. However, it seems that you'd rather sit there and waste said time on *****ing and moaning about mechanics that are part of the freakin' game. "Glitching" is a very fluid term in and of itself in the gaming community; as a general rule of thumb, the literal definition of a glitch is not always applicable. A "glitch," to most gamers, is silly **** that makes the whole freakin' game bug out or crash (i.e. the Black Hole glitch, Pandora's Box, etc). Wavedashing does not make the game freeze, nor does L-Canceling. Both of these things were incorporated into the game by design; if have access to a program like AR and you access Smash's debug menu, try Wavedashing sometime. You'll see the words "Landfall Special" come up somewhere.

Now, before you get into a tirade about AR being for cheaters, it is also a tool of sorts. It is not entirely dissimilar to the programs that actual video game designers use and accesses some of the key tools used to tweak around the game. The debug menu is one of those tools; with it, you can actually see the framework for the game as it was when the developers had it. Wavedashing is part of that framework; it is merely a minor exploitation of the physics engine and little more. This a widely known fact. Of course, if you wanna consider it a glitch, more power to you. But there is evidence here to substantiate the tourney-goers claim. Just because it looks unnatural to you does not make it anathema.

On to the matter of skill. Yes, what you cited from dictionary.com is one hundred percent accurate. Congratulations. But I think you missed psicicle's point, though. I'll go ahead and quote myself here:

Knowledge is power, even on a fundamental level. Luck and perseverance will not always save your happy ***; most of the time, it boils down to what you know and how to apply it. It's not "cheap" when you are knowledgeable about something and somebody else isn't; it's called an "advantage," leverage that you have over your opponent. Even the most casual of players exploit this trait all of the time. One guy knows, bare-bones, that his character's move is better than the other guys. Therefore, he is going to use it to the best of his ability.

That's my take on the term "skill." As with glitching, it is a very malleable term. You ever hear the phrase "To each his own..?" Well, it's applicable here. In fact, it's applicable to the whole **** argument.

You don't wanna go to tourneys, that's fine; play however the hell you want to. Nobody is going to stop you, man. However, you don't have to step on the toes of those who have a different belief system than you. There is no right or wrong way to play a video game; it is just meant to be played, pure and simple. The means may differ, certainly, but the ends are the same.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

I really don't care about your whinin', I didn't start this, the Smash Community did, so don't put blame on me like little f-ggots.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I really don't care about your whinin', I didn't start this, the Smash Community did, so don't put no blame on me like little f-ggots.

It seems that age recession is possible. Sorry that we drove you to this point, Luke.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Rikka]

Why are you responding to him? He's either a troll, or an ignorant idiot, which means he's right because he's him and you're you.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Why are you responding to him? He's either a troll, or an ignorant idiot, which means he's right because he's him and you're you.

You got me there, Rikka. Sorry for providing the troll food.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Superstar]

I think someone dropped Luke as a baby.

Techniques
* L-Cancelling - Not a glitch, was in SSB and SSBM, programmed into the game.
* Short hop - Was in SSB and SSBM, programmed into the game.
* Fast fall - Programming into SSB and SSBM, evend had an animation in SSB with a star, not a glitch
* SHFFLc - A combination of the above 3 along with an aerial attack to attack quickly. In SSB you couldn't fastfall during an aerial attack, but in SSBM you COULD, so you can shffl. From its procedure its not a glitch
* Crouch Cancel - Due to the programming of the physics, crouching let's you absorb attacks with no knockback at lower percentages. You can also crouch in order to stop your run and do a Smash attack with the C-Stick
*Crouch Cancel Counter - Taking advantage of the Crouch Cancel to counterattack.
* Powershield - Allows you to block and reflect any attack, humans cannot do it consistently [but can still use it], but CPU's do it all the time.
* Jump/Up-B out of shield/reflector - Programed into the game, not a glitch.
* Shield grab - Since grabbing is Z+A, while shielding you can grab the opponent to punish them for attacking your shield, not a glitch.
* Jump Canceling - Not a glitch, the initial jumping animations somehow stop your run, allowing you to do a standing grab while running. Also good for running Up-Smashes.
* Smash DI - programmed into SSB and SSBM, letting you survive to higher percentages
* Automatic DI - Hold the Control Stick during your flight to alter your angle, programmed into Melee, allowing people to escape combos easier.
* Rising Pound - Using DI on Jiggly's pound to float up on your pound, as DI isn't a glitch neither is this.
* Wall Bombing - Using Peach's side B to scale a wall, not a glitch, the physics just work for it.
* Desynch - Now this IS a glitch, but it actually makes the Ice Climbers worthwhile [without it they suck]. You can control Nana and Popo seperately.
* Wobbling - Using Desynch to grab infinitely with the Ice Climbers, however even then the Ice Climbers aren't that overpowered [but pretty strong].
* Wavedash - Most argued, although the physics itself is intended, the use of it is not, the developers didn't know a good thing when they saw one.
* Waveshine - Combines wavedash and reflector for sweet combos.


Banned in Tournament play
* IC freeze glitch - The Ice Climbers can halt the movement of one character, beat them up inifinitely [they are still in midair], then grab to finish off
* Infinite stalling with rising pounds and wall bombing.

And there are even more techs,

 

[the grim lizard]

Superstar brings up a good point (which I was thinking about right before I read it actually)...glitches, true glitches are banned from tourney play, such as the IC freeze glitch. It would be stupid to allow such things. But using an air dodge on the ground to get some spacing can hardly be equated with someone so devastating to the match...

 

[Superstar]

With the IC Freeze Glitch, you can just freeze your opponent, bring them to high percentages [they take no knockback while frozen], then just wait in part of the arena for the timer to go out and win. Evil little tactic, so the technique is BANNED!

You lose complete control of your character, your controller becomes worseless, and getting grabbed removes the curse.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VM5L4pRzC5g Done to a sandbag.

 

[Link Sharingan]

well super smash is ment to play whit items

 

[Superstar]

Hopefully, that's sarcasm. If items were unable to be turned off then it was made to play with items, but for the fact you can turn them off you can CHOOSE how to play.

I used to play with items in SSB, but I turned them off immediately for Melee, personally, the items sucked in Melee.

 

[the grim lizard]

How the great divide works:

Why do you care about something you never use? If you don't like the way tourney are, tuff noggies.

Why do they want everyone to be forced to play like them?

Casual and Pros, United, we piss each other off, divided, everything is fine.

Quoted for Awesomeness...

JesterBox is still my favorite person of this thread.

 

[Superstar]

Its good, cept he should have put scrubs instead of casual. Casual players aren't necessarily that bad, scrubs are, 100%.

I don't know, I just recently have been playing with advanced techs [1-2 month before my join date], and since I don't get to go to tournaments [cruel fate], and I get annoyed when people insult casuals, but scrubs deserve it 100%.

 

[the grim lizard]

Well, the meaning is implied. I've only hosted a couple local (very) tourneys. I haven't been to any others as I am pretty isolated. But, I've only been doing the really advanced stuff (stuff you'd only know about by coming here) for a little over a year. I was playing the 64 version regularly until about 3 years ago...>_<

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

When two people use the same glitch, then that is proof they both suck at the game.

Because you see someone use a specific technique doesn't mean that you can do it in real life.

Smash isn't determined on these so called glitches, match up knowledge and a good mindset contribute far more than some techniques. L-cancels etc. only enhance the game engine, or make it faster to an extent. Don't think you can win just because you can wavedash or shuffl.

The definition of skill is:

Yeah, that's totally using glitches constantly to win instead of actually work, right?

Apparently, you lack the ability to read/comprehend, I feel sorry for you.

No, not really. Nice try, though.

Yes it is, anyone with intelligence would know that.

Intelligent people don't make assumptions on a subject they have no knowledge of. One can say you are border line retarted.

...Oh snap, never mind, sorry about that, I can't expect you to even know considering your lack of intelligence. Sorry, dude.

I really don't care if you can beat me or not, I'm still righter than you could ever be. Plus, I have better things to do other than play SSBM all of the time.

I find it ironic that you claim that but you do nothing but complain about how unfair something is rather than actually gaining knowledge on the subject.

I'm tired of stomping noobs. -_-

 

[cubaisdeath]

lol phoenix fire ftw. I wonder if Luke ever even tried to wavedash, then he would realize its harder than most would think, considering each character has a different wavedash timing. but then again, that would make me a cheating ******* now wouldn't it?

 

[pr4n4y]

First off, "wavedashing". I have no doubt in my mind that this technique (or, glitch, really) should be completely removed from the game. It just doesn't serve any practical purpose. I've seen it used in matches and referred to as an "advanced" technique, but the only reason it's in use is because every one else uses it. If it weren't there, I assure you, the majority of players would not miss it. It's a glitch, and it shouldn't be in Brawl.

Honestly, alt+f4 your life or something.

I know this was opinion, but this person's mentality is just plain out stupid.

Ever heard of edge hogging, or are you too busy trying to beat Classic on Very Easy still?

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

I'm tired of stomping noobs. -_-

I say again, nobody's got a gun to your head.

@pr4n4y: Quoting the first post of a 12-page thread? You're a frickin' genius, y'idiot.

 

[pr4n4y]

Okay sorry about the flaming even I still don't agree with the no items, or wavedashing. I just stopped reading after that.

Quoting the first post of a 12-page thread? Idiotic? I doubt it, especially since it is the basis of this thread even if other people stated other ideas.

 

[cubaisdeath]

its a 32 page thread....

 

[pr4n4y]

Aww ****it. 12 was okay, 32 screws me over.

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

its a 32 page thread....

You should switch to 40 posts per page.

It, unlike the other settings, doesn't suck.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

You should switch to 40 posts per page.

This man speaks the truth.

 

[cubaisdeath]

meh, I'm too lazy to switch now, haha

 

[Shine-Fu]

I would like to make a comment on how some causal players seem bewildered as to how Tournament players could find smash fun without the random element.

Here's why

Generally speaking, we, the 'serious' players, prefer a scenario where it is me versus you, with no interference, be it stage or items. This is because, due to the unique properties of the game, you can have a fight where it is based on reactions, timing, judgment calls, and all around, skill. In this way, it is akin to poker. Its a game of skill. Why do you think they take the Jokers out of a poker deck for high level play? The concept is the same as items being off in smash. We get our kicks from being able to prove we are the best at the game that we can be. We love the challenge presented by a genuinely tough opponent. We revel in the ability to out think, out play, and defeat opponents, and we strive ever more to be able to do so.

> This is where our enjoyment comes from <

Specifically, personal growth in skill. We enjoy getting better. We enjoy knowing we will survive more often, get more kills, etc with practice of techniques. Without these advanced techniques, the total skill you can have in the game caps at a certain point, meaning there will be no more room for improvement.

To us, having no more room for improvement kills our enjoyment of the game. We would have nothing to work for. Especially frustrating is that while we would be willing to work at anything to get better, the game won't give us a function to do so. This is why, smash would be largely dead to 'serious' players if they killed the advanced functions. Not enough room for improvement.

Short version, we enjoy the near limitless potential to improve that advanced techniques give us. We aren't suggesting that the deck of poker cards not come with the jokers, just that you let us remove them when we play.

 

[Weed]

I would like to make a comment on how some causal players seem bewildered as to how Tournament players could find smash fun without the random element.

Here's why

Generally speaking, we, the 'serious' players, prefer a scenario where it is me versus you, with no interference, be it stage or items. This is because, due to the unique properties of the game, you can have a fight where it is based on reactions, timing, judgment calls, and all around, skill. In this way, it is akin to poker. Its a game of skill. Why do you think they take the Jokers out of a poker deck for high level play? The concept is the same as items being off in smash. We get our kicks from being able to prove we are the best at the game that we can be. We love the challenge presented by a genuinely tough opponent. We revel in the ability to out think, out play, and defeat opponents, and we strive ever more to be able to do so.

> This is where our enjoyment comes from <

Specifically, personal growth in skill. We enjoy getting better. We enjoy knowing we will survive more often, get more kills, etc with practice of techniques. Without these advanced techniques, the total skill you can have in the game caps at a certain point, meaning there will be no more room for improvement.

To us, having no more room for improvement kills our enjoyment of the game. We would have nothing to work for. Especially frustrating is that while we would be willing to work at anything to get better, the game won't give us a function to do so. This is why, smash would be largely dead to 'serious' players if they killed the advanced functions. Not enough room for improvement.

Short version, we enjoy the near limitless potential to improve that advanced techniques give us. We aren't suggesting that the deck of poker cards not come with the jokers, just that you let us remove them when we play.

the truth, indeed
the cards are a pretty good analogy

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

I would like to make a comment on how some causal players seem bewildered as to how Tournament players could find smash fun without the random element.

Here's why

Generally speaking, we, the 'serious' players, prefer a scenario where it is me versus you, with no interference, be it stage or items. This is because, due to the unique properties of the game, you can have a fight where it is based on reactions, timing, judgment calls, and all around, skill. In this way, it is akin to poker. Its a game of skill. Why do you think they take the Jokers out of a poker deck for high level play? The concept is the same as items being off in smash. We get our kicks from being able to prove we are the best at the game that we can be. We love the challenge presented by a genuinely tough opponent. We revel in the ability to out think, out play, and defeat opponents, and we strive ever more to be able to do so.

> This is where our enjoyment comes from <

Specifically, personal growth in skill. We enjoy getting better. We enjoy knowing we will survive more often, get more kills, etc with practice of techniques. Without these advanced techniques, the total skill you can have in the game caps at a certain point, meaning there will be no more room for improvement.

To us, having no more room for improvement kills our enjoyment of the game. We would have nothing to work for. Especially frustrating is that while we would be willing to work at anything to get better, the game won't give us a function to do so. This is why, smash would be largely dead to 'serious' players if they killed the advanced functions. Not enough room for improvement.

Short version, we enjoy the near limitless potential to improve that advanced techniques give us. We aren't suggesting that the deck of poker cards not come with the jokers, just that you let us remove them when we play.

Yeah. And I'm not suggesting that the jokers be forced back in, I'm suggesting that a second table be set up where a deck with jokers is used.