How Super Smash Bros Brawl SHOULD be.

[greenblob]

Doesn't matter. Items give random advantages. Randomness is to be avoided.

 

[Adi]

Wouldn't the more "Skilled" player be able to avoid the legendary, in general, and still fend off the n00b item user?

Yeah but how does adding such a huge handicap to one player enrich the gameplay in any way.

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

Yes it does. He knows about them. He intentionally put them in. He gave you bonuses for completing some of them In Melee.

Proof, please.

Who cares? (Besides, that's not even true)

O rly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Wii#Demographic

Nintendo wants to get more people who've never played video games to play them. The last thing on their mind is pandering to competitive players right now.

 

[greenblob]

To paraphrase Iwata, hardcore fans will be satisfied by the end of the year.

For proof, look in AR. And try edgehogging--you'll get bonus points for it.

 

[Salaad]

Proof, please.



O rly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Wii#Demographic

Nintendo wants to get more people who've never played video games to play them. The last thing on their mind is pandering to competitive players right now.

Then why would they make online play? For the casual gamer? No, online is almost always for the hardcore/competitive gamer.

 

[linkw00t]

I know you're just going on with the general consensus of this, but it adds randomness that can potentially benefit EITHER play. Statistically it's just as likely to benefit either person. There isn't a glitch that messes with Spawn rates.

Randomness is ONLY to be avoided by those who lack the skill of adaptation and HIGHER skill. When arguing about items, anti-item players tend to only point out a single circumstance that effects one person negatively. They never mention that they too, have the same ability to affect the other person negatively. It's exactly the same in the tournament community.

To say that the most SKILLED players are the ones who are the best at controlling what their character does with very specific limitations is absurd. I guarantee you, that if items were turned on, the best would STILL be on top, Or they wouldn't move that far, and if they DID, than they weren't as skilled as everyone might have thought. ONLY skilled under a certain circumstanced deemed fair. And by fair I mean in a scenario where there are no other variables in the gameplay. None.

 

[greenblob]

Let's say there's some skilled player and some weak player. With tournament rules, the skilled player beats him every time. With items, the weaker player has the chance of winning because some explosives might land in the skilled player's face and the weaker player might end up getting a crapload of heal items.

Again, the reason items are turned off isn't to limit gameplay. It's to limit randomness.

 

[the grim lizard]

I want to see you guys play Ani or Isai or Ken in an any stage, item match. You'd all still get pwned.

 

[Leobenmc]

Next up, items. Items are part of what make Smash Bros great, and the fact that it seems to be a prerequisite that they be turned off in tournaments (this is what I've heard) leaves me aghast. Items add a special thrill to the game. The fun of picking up a motion sensor and tossing it on to the ground and then giggling like a schoolgirl as the opponent steps on to it and takes a nice long trip into the sky, the suspense of throwing a Pokeball, accompanied by the laughs of triumph as Lugia bursts out and rains destruction upon the opposition or the cruel jeers from the opponent as Goldeen emerges and worthlessly flops about, or the awe and wonder as Mew appears, quickly followed by annoyance that it didn't do anything. Or, and this is my personal favorite, the horror etched into the opponent's face as Marth, Link or Roy pick up the saber and proceed to bring sweet sweet twin-bladed death unto all that oppose him. And all the other wonderful little treats in between. If the characters are the heart of Super Smash Bros and the stages are the body, then surely the items are the lifeblood. This is why items should never be banished from a match, because when the blood stops pumping, the body will surely wither and die.

I love this paragraph Jeff, thanks for writing it.
And I agree that WaveDashing should be got rid of in the Brawl (and I do wavedash a lot) - give everyone a fresh start. Make a more refined game, see what people can do without the added versatility of the slide - put every competitor on the same playing field. People who don't know how to wavedash are arguably "n00bs", but you can know the fundamentals of the game without knowing how to wavedash. And those matches will be great to play for all - no "additional techniques" that separate them, a common knowledge of the game and the buttons. So yes, I'd love for a faster, more fluid roll to replace the wavedash.

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

To paraphrase Iwata, hardcore fans will be satisfied by the end of the year.

For proof, look in AR. And try edgehogging--you'll get bonus points for it.

First, you'll have to explain what AR means.

Then you'll have to provide screencaps, videos, or something similar. Word of mouth isn't good enough proof, sadly.

Then why would they make online play? For the casual gamer? No, online is almost always for the hardcore/competitive gamer.

Or, just maybe, online play is for players who wants to meet new people and play the game with them, as they're somehow unable to play with people near them.

I for one, use online play in an exclusively casual manner.

 

[greenblob]

You know, without wavedashing people would just pivot, which is harder. And WD never replaced rolling. Look at Smash 64--no WD, and yet people don't roll any more than they do in Melee.

 

[Rikka]

Something that needs to be said:

Even if every advance tech was removed, the online scene would more than likely or not becomes predominately competitive. That's what happens in pretty much every other online game. Smash has chance because the number of players in a match creates a much thinner line between if a match is more competitive or not, but still, that might not be enough. I hope it will be, but history doesn't make it look likely.

 

[Salaad]

First, you'll have to explain what AR means.

Then you'll have to provide screencaps, videos, or something similar. Word of mouth isn't good enough proof, sadly.



Or, just maybe, online play is for players who wants to meet new people and play the game with them, as they're somehow unable to play with people near them.

I for one, use online play in an exclusively casual manner.

Give me one example of how you have met ANYONE on Nintendo online. I'm saying, the majority of the people that are going to play are competitive. Casual players play online too, I agree, but once they lose to someone who uses advanced techs, they will stop playing online or try to learn Advanced techs. Basically, Nintendo online is like a blind date, but your not really meeting anyone cause all your doing is playing with them, not socializing. Which brings me to my next point, "Item-players" like to play for fun and throughout this thread I have seen the word Socialize come up. Nintendo online =/= Socialization. xD ( I love making up words...)

 

[the grim lizard]

You know, without wavedashing people would just pivot, which is harder. And WD never replaced rolling. Look at Smash 64--no WD, and yet people don't roll any more than they do in Melee.

That reminds me...a spot-on pivot is kind of a hard technique to pull off. Should they take that out, too? So that you can only turn around by running a little bit? I mean, otherwise you can grab someone behind you. That's not fair! They should take out pivoting!

 

[Bassoonist]

Give me one example of how you have met ANYONE on Nintendo online. I'm saying, the majority of the people that are going to play are competitive. Casual players play online too, I agree, but once they lose to someone who uses advanced techs, they will stop playing online or try to learn Advanced techs. Basically, Nintendo online is like a blind date, but your not really meeting anyone cause all your doing is playing with them, not socializing. Which brings me to my next point, "Item-players" like to play for fun and throughout this thread I have seen the word Socialize come up. Nintendo online =/= Socialization. xD ( I love making up words...)

I disagree. SSBB online should not be totally "tournament style".

If I want to play online, I shouldn't be forced to switch my playing style.

I'm not saying that tournament players shouldn't be allowed to play with their rules online, I'm just saying that there should be matches for casual players as well.

 

[Salaad]

I disagree. SSBB online should not be totally "tournament style".

If I want to play online, I shouldn't be forced to switch my playing style.

I'm not saying that tournament players shouldn't be allowed to play with their rules online, I'm just saying that there should be matches for casual players as well.

I never said you should be forced to play our way. If you read it correctly, all the things casual gamers are looking for are not in online...Ex. Socialization. How are you supposed to socialized with one another? Imagine a casual gamer about to play a game. he gets killed, 5-stocked. What do you think he's going to do?

1) Stop playing online.

2) Learn Advanced Techs.

As far as friend codes go, your friends aren't always there to play item-matches. You'd have to schedule it. I'd rather not expand cause I'm too lazy. =/

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

I never said you should be forced to play our way. If you read it correctly, all the things casual gamers are looking for are not in online...Ex. Socialization. How are you supposed to socialized with one another? Imagine a casual gamer about to play a game. he gets killed, 5-stocked. What do you think he's going to do?

1) Stop playing online.

2) Learn Advanced Techs.

As far as friend codes go, your friends aren't always there to play item-matches. You'd have to schedule it. I'd rather not expand cause I'm too lazy. =/

Or they'll play with other casual players.

Pardon me for saying so, but all of your logic is horribly flawed.

 

[Takeshi245]

Or they'll play with other casual players.

Pardon me for saying so, but all of your logic is horribly flawed.

Could you please explain this to me?

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Simple. What Nintendo could do (if they were smart) would be to create two different types of online play. Tourney play and casual play (not official names, but I'm calling them that for now)

If you wanted to play 5 life, FD stage, itemless matches, you'd choose Tourney mode.

If you wanted to mess around, use items and basically not give a ****, you'd choose Casual.

 

[Hydde]

Meh, Snaking wouldn't be as bad if it wasn't for two things:

1.The only tactic that can beat Snaking is Snaking.
2.There is no other kind of advance move to add to it.
Correct me if I'm wrong on either point.

Sure, Fox and Falco are dominant in Smash, but others are played and all the advance techs come together to form different playstyles.

excuse me but, what means...and what is snaking?

 

[Takalth]

In most online games, you have a mode where one person creates a game type and others join it. Why not with Brawl?

You don't need to limit it to "casual settings" and competitive settings." If somebody wants to play a 23 minute coin match on flatland, let them make the game.

There are so many different minor settings in Smash (Do you prefer items on medium or high? Teams, FFA, or 1 vs. 1?) that a "1 size fits all" or even a "2 sizes fit all" just isn't appropriate. As long as your memory card remembers all of your settings, it would be almost as fast as an automatch system.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

In most online games, you have a mode where one person creates a game type and others join it. Why not with Brawl?

You don't need to limit it to "casual settings" and competitive settings." If somebody wants to play a 23 minute coin match on flatland, let them make the game.

There are so many different minor settings in Smash (Do you prefer items on medium or high? Teams, FFA, or 1 vs. 1?) that a "1 size fits all" or even a "2 sizes fit all" just isn't appropriate. As long as your memory card remembers all of your settings, it would be almost as fast as an automatch system.

That could work, but I don't want to end up playing some hardcore "anything to win" tourney player when I feel like messing around and playing with a crappy character for the sake of laughs.

 

[Salaad]

Or they'll play with other casual players.

Pardon me for saying so, but all of your logic is horribly flawed.

If you actually read my post, I said that if you have other casual players' friend codes that'll work out, but he's not going to be there EVERY single time you want to play with him. Then you'll have to add more friend codes and SCHEDULE fights. And for the 3rd time, tell me how you're going to socialize.

Explain to me how this is flawed.

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

If you actually read my post, I said that if you have other casual players' friend codes that'll work out, but he's not going to be there EVERY single time you want to play with him. Then you'll have to add more friend codes and SCHEDULE fights. And for the 3rd time, tell me how you're going to socialize.

Explain to me how this is flawed.

You seem to assume that there's a very low amount of casual players and they're all in the same time zone. This is the flaw in your logic.

As for socializing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_over_IP

There's also exchanging email, AIM, etc. etc.

 

[maxpower1227]

Let's say there's some skilled player and some weak player. With tournament rules, the skilled player beats him every time. With items, the weaker player has the chance of winning because some explosives might land in the skilled player's face and the weaker player might end up getting a crapload of heal items.

Again, the reason items are turned off isn't to limit gameplay. It's to limit randomness.

Don't do single elimination then. Do best out of 3 or 5 matches. BAM. PROBLEM SOLVED.

 

[Salaad]

Did I ever say that they are in the same time zones? In fact, what I'm saying is that they are not in the same timezones and THATS why their matches need to be scheduled beforehand. Did I ever say that there is a very low amount of casual players? Socialization...Tell me, can you socialize whilst playing a match online? Is there a microphone? You have got it backwards, you are assuming that I think there are not a lot of casual players and they are in the same time zone and VoIP...meh..

 

[greenblob]

You clearly don't know what [wiki]tournament legal[/wiki] rules are.

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

Don't do single elimination then. Do best out of 3 or 5 matches. BAM. PROBLEM SOLVED.

With Max Power, you don't do single elimination! You strap yourself in and FEEL THE Gs!

 

[Salaad]

Did I ever say that they are in the same time zones? In fact, what I'm saying is that they are not in the same timezones and THATS why their matches need to be scheduled beforehand. Did I ever say that there is a very low amount of casual players? Socialization...Tell me, can you socialize whilst playing a match online? Is there a microphone? You have got it backwards, you are assuming that I think there are not a lot of casual players and they are in the same time zone and VoIP...meh..

Yeah...

I didn't get a word you just said there...=/

 

[LaniusShrike]

. . .
See, really, one of the very best things about Smash Bros. is that they give you options, and therefore the way the game is SUPPOSED to be played is that, in fact, you can alter options however you enjoy it. If people enjoy playing one way, let them play it. The only problem is when people tell them they're setting the options wrong and that their OPINIONS are wrong.

 

[bored]

excuse me but, what means...and what is snaking?

snaking is a cheap *** way to win wifi matches on mario kart DS

 

[Tabris-]

excuse me but, what means...and what is snaking?

Boosting out of a powerslide I believe. If you can do it well enough, you can boost an entire race.

 

[tstumo]

i myself wave dash and use advance techniques. but i dont rely on it. if you cant play SSB without wavedashing and you will boycott buying Brawl just because WD is omitted then something is serioulsy wrong with you. I have more fun without using it. SSB was originally designed to be played with items. Sakurai has opened the doors to make the game more customizable. so now if you dont feel like playing with items you dont have to. I feel that items or someone learning advance techniques dont need to be forced apon them. if you want to use items use items. if you want to use advance techinques use them. if they get taken out in Brawl simply adjust. the whole argument about tournament players vs players who play for fun is tired. gosh I miss the days of Super smash bros where all of this nonsense wasnt being brought up.

 

[Rikka]

They're arguing about item use in tourneys.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I stopped reading somewhere after "the wave-dash should be removed".

If you could do it properly, I garuntee you'd say otherwise - just like all the others..

On a side note - *Yawn..*

 

[Cisne]

eh...u dont like wd ? dont use it , u like items ? play with em.

Play as u like and dont bother tournament level game play bcoz u dont like it.

BTW, I think u have no idea of what can be done with wd and how items affect every character.

WD useless ? Please , learn how to play , then talk.

 

[Frigid_Aztec]

Errrr, your way off on the wavedashing part. I'm also fairly sure it will be removed, but its in no way useless. As a Falco user in Melee I've noticed that waveshinning is very crucial to alot of comboes.

As for items, thats all personal opinion. I personally don't like items, they got boring after a little bit. I'll try a few item matches in Brawl, but then I'll turn 'em off.

Final Smashes I may use more then regular items because they only appear once per match, but they too will be turned off eventually.

 

[FlatSoda]

I don't like the idea of a 'should' be thread. There's nothing to compare brawls current gameplay at the moment. we all haven't played it.

Until it's released, i say we point out it's glitches, and it's drawbacks and what should be changed.

The idiotic fan based crap annoys me, except for THOUGHTS.

 

[TheSpindoctor]

I hate snakers....with a passion of a thousand needles....


that is all.

 

[Micahc]

Ok, so I just read the last page of this thread and this is what I got form it:
You want to take out wavedashing for some unknown reason. I'm just gonna assume it's because you think it's "cheap," or it's a "glitch," or it sucks the fun outta the game. But to be honest, wavedashing isn't anything close to "cheap," it's not a "glitch," and adding depth to the game makes it funner and more challenging. So unless you hate to be challenged and want everything handed to you on a pretty silver platter, wavedashing should stay.

Will I miss it if it's gone? Not really; no.

Another thing I got from this thread is people want Items in tournaments. Just go back to Game FAQs please.