How Super Smash Bros Brawl SHOULD be.

[Superstar]

If you can't handle different levels and improvising with the terrain and items, then you shouldn't call someone a bad player if they decide not to play on FD all the time.

Someone mentioned it, FinalD is not the only tournament stage, merely the favorite. And put a tournament player and a casual player together, and even with items on the tournament player will win [unless hammers are set to very high]. However, when two tournament players play, and their skill level is slightly closer, items do add a great luck factor, and just gets people pissed in tournaments.

I don't hate you for not playing on FD all the time, but don't say its skilless to not play with items [when you said can't handle you implied it].

 

[_the_sandman_]

2: Mhmm...so I should be able to "improvise" on the fact that certain stages blatantly benefit some characters, and that depending on pure luck, your opponent can get a bomb while i get a goldeen pokeball?

Kirby has no advantage on FD since his attacks are too weak. But at least on levels like Kongo Jungle or Yoshi Island he has a better chance to win.

Falco on FD... you think thats fair?

Even without items, people should play on other levels. I guess they don't have to... but they should! Someone can't be that great at the game if they can't survive on Brinstar or Onett

 

[maxpower1227]

/agreed

I will always play;
No Items
No Final Smashes
No Ghey Stages

Competitive formats are always the basis for games. It's the only way to play.

Elitism alert

I mean come on, how fair is it, if you are about to kill someone at 100%+ and he grabs a maxim tomato? or a Pokeball with an Entei, or just about any other item that one sides the match.

The game should be played on the precedent of SKILL, the BEST PLAYER should win not the LUCKIEST. What fun is it if you are 1000x better than you friend, and he just gets a few lucky item drops and wins? That is not fun

If one lucky item drop can affect the outcome of the match, then the players were probably fairly evenly matched to begin with; one was not "1000x better" than the other.

You don't want items affecting the outcome of a match? Turn their frequency down. Or, turn it all the way up so that all players are equally likely to get something. Or better yet, learn to adapt.

Honestly, don't they have tournaments for games that involve dice? And isn't one of the most popular (by FAR) tournament games on television Texas Hold Em? Does that not involve *gasp*... some luck?

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

Man, this thread is starting to go way faster than I can keep up with....

Anyway. Fun is subjective. Yes, I get that now. I shouldn't try to shove my own standard of 'fun' down someone else's throat, because then I'm becoming the same person I'm arguing against. I suppose some people could find Advanced Techniques with Fox on Final Destination, Battlefield or Fountain of Dreams fun. I would never find such a thing fun, personally, especially if it's the mode I would be playing the majority of the time.

Here's the thing. I want to go to gatherings and socialize with people who play Smash Bros and make new friends just as much as you guys. The way tournaments rules are set up makes that very hard, because honestly, I doubt I'd get to play more than one or two rounds if I went to a tournament. I'm saying that tournaments need more variety, instead of just being stuck one way (because if they were in a purely casual state of mind, then you tourney guys would be screwed over and we'd be right back at square one).

Variety. If tournaments had that, I'm sure there'd be a lot less debating.

I'm pretty sure while I was typing this, a boatload more posts came up. This place moves a lot faster than I thought....

 

[Pieman0920]

Hmm, I was always under the impression that it wasn't the items themselves that were the problems, but rather those annoying exploding crates. Seeing as most normal items can be dodged, or caught, I thought skilled players would be able to adapt to it, and it was just those random explosions that took them out. ;>_>

 

[NES n00b]

Kirby has no advantage on FD since his attacks are too weak. But at least on levels like Kongo Jungle or Yoshi Island he has a better chance to win.

Falco on FD... you think thats fair?

Even without items, people should play on other levels. I guess they don't have to... but they should! Someone can't be that great at the game if they can't survive on Brinstar or Onett

Brinstar is a counterpick stage you know. This definitely proves you do not know about tourney play.

 

[Tipo mastr]

Kirby has no advantage on FD since his attacks are too weak. But at least on levels like Kongo Jungle or Yoshi Island he has a better chance to win.

Falco on FD... you think thats fair?

Falco on FD simply proves my point. Certain characters do better on certain stages, and it's not something you can help.

 

[_the_sandman_]

Variety. If tournaments had that, I'm sure there'd be a lot less debating.

I agree. More variety would at least make the gameplay at tournaments a bit more even in my opinion.

 

[CodeRed]

I never thought of Viewtiful Joe for Brawl. I think he would be pretty cool, and since Nintendo and Capcom have been pretty close since the Gamecube's life, his chances might be pretty good.

 

[greenblob]

Kirby has no advantage on FD since his attacks are too weak. But at least on levels like Kongo Jungle or Yoshi Island he has a better chance to win.

Falco on FD... you think thats fair?

Even without items, people should play on other levels. I guess they don't have to... but they should! Someone can't be that great at the game if they can't survive on Brinstar or Onett

Better yet, Fox on Yoshi's Island...you think that's fair? How about Falco on Yoshi's story 64?

And you don't have to pick neutral stages after the first match. If you want Rainbow Cruise, go ahead.

You can survive on Onett... Just pick Fox.

 

[Salaad]

Tournaments are set up for FUN and experience even if you lose 1st round. Don't worry about Brawl, because the way that the stages are going, there will be A LOT of variety, and what Max said on the last page "Learn to adapt"

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

I never thought of Viewtiful Joe for Brawl. I think he would be pretty cool, and since Nintendo and Capcom have been pretty close since the Gamecube's life, his chances might be pretty good.

HAHAHAHAH.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capcom_Five

Sure they have.

 

[NES n00b]

You know there are item tournies right? Just find those, and see how you do. You do not have to use "exploits" to win either. Just use ALL of the things that the programmers did intend like shffling, l canceling, and DI.

Edit: lol, good one Greenblob. Most banned stages hold advantages for the top tiers and that is why they are banned (along with some of the randomness of Icicle Mountain and Brinstar Depths).

 

[maxpower1227]

Hmm, I was always under the impression that it wasn't the items themselves that were the problems, but rather those annoying exploding crates. Seeing as most normal items can be dodged, or caught, I thought skilled players would be able to adapt to it, and it was just those random explosions that took them out. ;>_>

I don't get that either. Just don't open a crate by throwing it down at your feet . Problem solved. *shrug*

 

[Pieman0920]

I don't get that either. Just don't open a crate by throwing it down at your feet . Problem solved. *shrug*

It's not just that. If you throw it away, then you just threw it away. It's a unpredictable hassle! :O

Of course what I always assumed it was is wrong, but I still wish that feature went away. (Or at least could be turned off)

 

[_the_sandman_]

The thing with me and levels, is that every time I go through tournaments its always...

Final Destination, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi Story, Kirby 64, no questions asked....

It used to have more choices in tournaments. But somewhere along the line I was normally only allowed to choose those levels. I've been around the states and cities, and to be honest I'm sick of these levels with wavedashers. I wasn't even allowed to pick Pokemon Stadium at one of the matches!

Meh, oh well, hopefully Brawl will change for tournaments. Otherwise it will only be Smashville for every match.

 

[greenblob]

You know there are item tournies right? Just find those, and see how you do. You do not have to use "exploits" to win either. Just use ALL of the things that the programmers did intend like shffling, l canceling, and DI.

The SHFFL is no different than the Wavedash.

Wavedashing: Airdodging into the ground, the airdodge was intended, the sliding animation was intended, the use of this for movement was not.
SHFFL: short hop attack fast fall l cancel, all of which were intended. However, the use of these for ground-level aerials to combine aerial attack usefulness with ground maneuverability was not intended.

 

[NES n00b]

The SHFFL is no different than the Wavedash.

Wavedashing: Airdodging into the ground, the airdodge was intended, the sliding animation was intended, the use of this for movement was not.
SHFFL: short hop attack fast fall l cancel, all of which were intended. However, the use of these for ground-level aerials to combine aerial attack usefulness with ground maneuverability was not intended.

I would give the programmers more credit than that. I am pretty sure they wanted alot of characters to have shffle upair combos. How else would anyone use Falcon? >_>

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

You know there are item tournies right? Just find those, and see how you do. You do not have to use "exploits" to win either. Just use ALL of the things that the programmers did intend like shffling, l canceling, and DI.

Edit: lol, good one Greenblob. Most banned stages hold advantages for the top tiers and that is why they are banned (along with some of the randomness of Icicle Mountain and Brinstar Depths).

Please, point me towards these items tournaments.

If there's a decent number of them, then obviously, you've destroyed my argument, and I will be oh-so-happy that you did.

 

[_the_sandman_]

Please, point me towards these items tournaments.

If there's a decent number of them, then obviously, you've destroyed my argument, and I will be oh-so-happy that you did.

There used to be item tournaments, actually there used to be timed tournaments. It isn't as crazy as it sounds, heh.

 

[Superstar]

sandman, those are the neutral stages, there are plenty more stages called counterpick stages.

The yellows and greens are choosable in tournaments.

 

[Eaode]

CASUAL PLAYERS AND ANYONE ELSE, CLICK HERE
Read it.^^

 

[NES n00b]

Please, point me towards these items tournaments.

If there's a decent number of them, then obviously, you've destroyed my argument, and I will be oh-so-happy that you did.

They are mostly in the west coast in California. Look them up in the regional sections. Usually over there, they have tournies that go like: Singles, teams, low tiers, items. That is where they are most prevalent. You can also look into big city type places. If you are in some place like the midSouth, then you will never find one. lol

And the sandman is correct that all those use to exist.

 

[greenblob]

I would give the programmers more credit than that. I am pretty sure they wanted alot of characters to have shffle upair combos. How else would anyone use Falcon? >_>

Falcon... PUNCH!

 

[Bobz]

whoever you are, wherever you are, play the game the way you want to.

want an items tourney? host one in a basement, you'll get some people.

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

whoever you are, wherever you are, play the game the way you want to.

want an items tourney? host one in a basement, you'll get some people.

Yeeah, unfortunately, it just ain't as easy as that.

 

[SmashChu]

Ohhh, controversy. My thoughts

Agree
I do think Wavedashing should be removed. Not for the reason you mentioned though. If Brawl is to be online, then it's not fair that you can win with a glitch that no one else know exist. The same goes for L-Canceling. Also, I also feel competavitve Smashers are a bit squimish with courses. They are so afraid of random elemnets that there are only 7 nutural courses. I a bit shocked that even foreside isn't at least a counter.

Disagree
While I like items, it's not fair that they have to be on. Some times, it's just nice to turn them off. It adds customization to the game. There was some other stuff, but nothing I felt you weren't trying to force apon people. But, I do beleive you need to be able to at least have ZSS soimeway in the begining of the match.

 

[greenblob]

For the longest time my friend didn't know that you could short hop. Does that mean that short hopping should be cut? Of course not. What if someone discovers a new combo? Should that combo be banned because only he knows of it?

And why is Fourside banned? Fox.

 

[Superstar]

L-cancelling is truely not a glitch, not even a little, it was in the original smash, and in Melee, that must never be removed, and I'm glad you don't make the game [didn't mean it as an insult, I was just pissed, L-cancel is THE most powerful advanced tech in the game]. Wavedash might get removed as it wasn't intended to be used [not a glitch, it was just a programmed response to certain stuff, like the airdodge as an example], but it wasn't intended. However, I would love very much for wavedash to stay.

Also, truth of the matter, advanced techs are not like snaking. You could use them and STILL suck, and much more practice is needed to be good with techs than to be good with snaking. It adds competitive depth to the game, and presents an option to the competitive, true hardcore player.

 

[T-Rex]

Honestly, don't they have tournaments for games that involve dice? And isn't one of the most popular (by FAR) tournament games on television Texas Hold Em? Does that not involve *gasp*... some luck?

Luck is for people who cannot win solely with skill.

 

[greenblob]

There's a difference between gambling and competition.

Also, it's funny that Poker people are trying to pass Poker as a game of skill and that luck has nothing to do with the outcome.

 

[TheSpindoctor]

What do you mean better? Maybe better for YOU, but not better for ME. I like wavedashing. Just because you think it is cheap or whatever doesn't give you the right to talk about getting rid of it. What if tourney players said we should get rid of items since we do not use it and we think it is "cheap."

Did I mention I think wavedashing make this game more FUN to me?

thats true. I need to be a lil more "well rounded" maybe.

my bad

 

[JesterBox]

If you don't know what your talking about.....

If you don't like glitches, don't use them, get crushed I don't care.

 

[Rikka]

The idea of taking wavedashing out because another player doesn't know about is horrible. But I want to use another technique for an example, shffling. The shffler decided to look up the game and decided to learn to use this technique because he wanted to get better. The person who didn't know how to use it wasn't defeated unfairly. The other player deserved to lose if he did because he was the lesser player.

 

[Superstar]

There's a difference between gambling and competition.

Also, it's funny that Poker people are trying to pass Poker as a game of skill and that luck has nothing to do with the outcome.

In Poker, the major skill involved is reading your opponent's cues. If you read Sirlin's book, he mentions that the same players always win at Poker. Having, Smash is a different kind of game, you don't even look at the face of your player, so you cannot compare it.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

Hey! Whaddya know!
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=110719


;]

 

[Tank McCannon]

Viewtiful Joe, people have fun playing the game in different ways. Pros aren't asking to take items and strange levels out of the game, they just don't use them. Casual players like yourself should do the same with wavedashing. Don't like it? That's okay, I understand, so just don't use it. Why take it out and ruin the fun for everyone else that uses it.

This is why Melee is so popular, it caters to both casual and more serious players. Everyone is happy with Melee the way it is, why take one side over the other when making Brawl?

Personally, I think if they just keep all of the Adv. Techs they way they are, but mention them in the instruction booklet, everyone will be fine.

 

[Kayn]

In Poker, the major skill involved is reading your opponent's cues. If you read Sirlin's book, he mentions that the same players always win at Poker. Having, Smash is a different kind of game, you don't even look at the face of your player, so you cannot compare it.

You might not read the face of the player but you take into account which character he's usuing, the map, and the circumstances that just occured. So in essence your reading the player via the character instead of reading the players face.

 

[the grim lizard]

What about teching? That's basically the same as L-cancelling...It's a very useful technique and not at all difficult to do. (M2 looks really weird when he techs).

Wow, I don't know what my point was...oh well. I like adv techs. Even if you don't do WDing or DDing...seriously, they are helpful. Why do people complain so much?

"Ledge-hogging is so cheap!" >_<

 

[greenblob]

In Poker, the major skill involved is reading your opponent's cues. If you read Sirlin's book, he mentions that the same players always win at Poker. Having, Smash is a different kind of game, you don't even look at the face of your player, so you cannot compare it.

Well, yeah, I agree that there is a lot of skill involved in Poker, but it's silly to deny that the basis of Poker is luck.