How Super Smash Bros Brawl SHOULD be.

[NES n00b]

thats true. I need to be a lil more "well rounded" maybe.

my bad

Don't worry about it. As long as you understand that some people like to wavedash and some people like items and they are free to like whatever they like and none of these things should be removed.

 

[Bassoonist]

Don't worry about it. As long as you understand that some people like to wavedash and some people like items and they are free to like whatever they like and none of these things should be removed.

QFT.

And no matters which style you play you don't "lack skill" or are a "loser".

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

Viewtiful Joe, people have fun playing the game in different ways. Pros aren't asking to take items and strange levels out of the game, they just don't use them. Casual players like yourself should do the same with wavedashing. Don't like it? That's okay, I understand, so just don't use it. Why take it out and ruin the fun for everyone else that uses it.

This is why Melee is so popular, it caters to both casual and more serious players. Everyone is happy with Melee the way it is, why take one side over the other when making Brawl?

Personally, I think if they just keep all of the Adv. Techs they way they are, but mention them in the instruction booklet, everyone will be fine.

.....My name's Jeff....

Openly acknowledging every Advanced Technique and putting it in the instruction booklet would probably appease me, but you know what'll happen? People will discover more techniques.

Hell, I just wish they'd come out and say whether or not they support Wavedashing and the like. Would make things quite a bit less complicated.

 

[mario-man]

@ Andrew
Exactly, the only thing is that people who don't use advanced techs choose to be good in a different way. They're not "bad", they just choose not to be good. It's okay with me, cuz if they wanted to, they could be good. Here's one thing in their defense. Suppose somebody buys this game. They play it alot with their family or whoever. Some people don't think it's much "fun" to be alot better than everybody else. If they use Adv. techs, then they would ALL have to, otherwise they would be alot better, and thus not have "fun". Some people aren't good enough at videogames to use advanced techs, because they aren't "gamers". They just play for fun. All this said, either way, you can have fun, it just depends on your preference and/or situation.

 

[Superstar]

You might not read the face of the player but you take into account which character he's usuing, the map, and the circumstances that just occured. So in essence your reading the player via the character instead of reading the players face.

Of course, the character is read. However, Poker's main skill is that, while in Melee, reading the character is a partner to tech. Luck is tolerable in Poker, those games, while in fighters luck is preferred off competitively, yeah, as it has been stated, items HAVE been tried in tournaments before, but it developed into tournaments of today.

Yeah, of course I'll keep using Wavedash even if the developers dislike it, it'll just let me know if Brawl will have it.

 

[narmerguy]

I'm growing quite bored of everyone claiming they need WD to survive. If you're good and "tourny" level, it shouldn't matter. So what, I can do it. I don't live and die by it. Take it out already I'm sick of all the drama it creates and the little hiearchy people create because of it.

"You can't WD? Hah, newb."
Basically all I read on this forum. It grows old and I even WD.

 

[mario-man]

Woooaaahhhh!!!!!!!!!

207 replies and it's only been up 6 hours.LoL

 

[Tank McCannon]

.....My name's Jeff....

Openly acknowledging every Advanced Technique and putting it in the instruction booklet would probably appease me, but you know what'll happen? People will discover more techniques.

Hell, I just wish they'd come out and say whether or not they support Wavedashing and the like. Would make things quite a bit less complicated.

Of course people will discover more. It's part of the game and there's no way to stop that. If you're a serious player, cool, you'll probably learn how to do it and use it yourself. Casual player? That's fine too, it shouldn't affect you in any way.

And why should it matter if they support Wavedashing or not? I paid money to play this game, so why should I have Nintendo tell me how to play it? The game is made for gamers, play it how you want.

 

[KratosAurion192]

Competitve level of smash will always ban items, levels and certain moves (I think final smash should stay in, only being able to use it once makes me think that way)... because of either cheating or chance.

My opinion, put EVERYTHING in to the game. Anything and everything you can think of to put in the game, goes in. Just make an option to turn it off...

And as for things like WDing. Wii is online... patch them. Call it an exploit, call it a glitch, call it a strategy, when it comes down to it, it isn't how the game was ment to be played... if you can prove otherwise I'd love to hear it...

 

[greenblob]

I can prove that it doesn't matter.


Z-canceling.

 

[Primetime84]

Why does everything revert back to talking about Wavedashing? lol

O yea and just to stir the pot G&W would own Jigglypuff anyday. I was just never a fan of Jiggly so i've sworn her off since SSB, nuthin personal. And Earthworm Jim is an awesome idea!!!! he had sick gadgets and weapons. Also if it was earlier maybe I could think up a legit moveset for Dr. Mario, and yes i'm glad someone reminded me that Dr. Wright is an AT........I kinda mentioned it myself in my own text, I don't need reconfirmation lol

 

[MzNetta]

tl;dr

I did, however, pick up on the fact that the uninformed should not make topics.

 

[Bassoonist]

O yea and just to stir the pot G&W would own Jigglypuff anyday. I was just never a fan of Jiggly so i've sworn her off since SSB, nuthin personal.

If it's "nuthin personal" then maybe you should stop saying she should be taken out of the game because your own personal opinion.

There are several Jigglypuff fans, and one person's personal opinion won't make a difference. Especially since keeping her in isn't going to hurt you in any way.

 

[Team Giza]

Wavedashing was known about when PAL version was released. There were many glitches fixed in this version and many characters were even rebalanced. Yet wavedashing remained... hmm... interesting. Much like L-canceling reappeared in SSBM after the 64 game I think wavedashing will remain. Perhaps wavedashing will change up a bit and become more thought out and implemented but I still think the basics of it will be there. Even when I play casually I still wavedash and L-cancel. Its fun. I think wavedashing makes the game funner over all. I mean hell I love use going into a 4 player items FFA and using them. Its cool with me. Bone up and learn it or find other ways around it if you don't like it.

And don't say I am just a tournament guy who doesn't understand casual play. I may do tournament rules more, but I still turn on items and go to even the most gimmicky of levels. Heck today, my friends and I teamed up and played against a lvl 9 DK with his handicap at 9 and all three of our handicaps at 3. Friendly fire off, items on. It was fun stuff.

I think it will stay in. To those who say "its not how the game is meant to be played", that doesn't mean we shouldn't use it. I mean heck, if people decided it was wrong to use combos in the original Street Fighter 2 when it was considered by many to be a glitch then were would we be now? Many games evolve through the exploits found in the older installments. So there is nothing wrong with using whatever tactics are in your arsenal in a game as long as it doesn't break it.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

The way Smash really should be:

The way you want it to be. Smash was created through the essence of freedom. You can play in a wide plehtora of ways that you can make up, or just play the standard items on marketting demographic type play. You can also have the option to play tournament style.

Smash wasn't created to be played one specific way, that is why it has variety and popularity.

 

[_the_sandman_]

Any style to smash is great! Its only a problem when people belittle one another about certain styles.

 

[Xaron Fisk]

this forum might not exist but for the tourney players and their itemless glitch-lovin' stage bannin' debauchery. the majority of you clowns weren't even here from 2003-2006. most of you will be gone by mid 2008 only to resurface a half decade later when the next smash is announced. tournaments are the lifeblood of this community. you complainers are leeches.

 

[Flare233]

The "itz not in da instruction b00klet!" argument is weak, because there are many intentionally added techniques that aren't mentioned in the booklet or the game (short hop? L-canceling? Extended Samus grab anyone? Even Link and Samus's hook ledge recoveries)

Also, if I pwn a n00b who has no clue about advanced techs, if they are willing to learn them I will teach them. If they don't want to learn then they can't whine and complain about losing and about how "cheap" adv. techs are. That's like being beaten by a martial artist in a fight, not being willing to learn their techniques and then claiming that their hard-earned and endlessly practiced moves are "cheap."

 

[Jigglymaster]

Why does everything revert back to talking about Wavedashing? lol

O yea and just to stir the pot G&W would own Jigglypuff anyday. I was just never a fan of Jiggly so i've sworn her off since SSB, nuthin personal. And Earthworm Jim is an awesome idea!!!! he had sick gadgets and weapons. Also if it was earlier maybe I could think up a legit moveset for Dr. Mario, and yes i'm glad someone reminded me that Dr. Wright is an AT........I kinda mentioned it myself in my own text, I don't need reconfirmation lol

1. Jiggly is higher on the tier list than G&W

2. On the character match-up list it says Jiggly would win 5-4 in a best of 9.


Also, the Jigglypuff on the N64 is just as good, but with a different playing style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsulZCCw48U

 

[smidge]

Aweful. Items ruin matches, and stages with cheap gimmicks are fun, but rather trivial. Honestly, the serious pro smasher, who dominates the gameplay and is the main consumer/user, is who the game should be catered around. not the little ten year olds who dont kno what a smash attack it. really, if you want that, go back to SSB on the 64 and leave all us smashers alone.

LAMOW ^^^^^ hope its a joke

love this thread btw

 

[Thunderslf]

Why do threads like this exist? Smash Bros. is perfect the way it is. There's no need or reason to take any of the features out, because in the game there are ways to avoid these features if you don't want to experience them. The hardcore players will play with their hardcore playing friends with items off, and the casual, not n00b, like most people here call them so immaturely, will play with items on and just play for fun, not for competetiveness. I call myself a casual player, I don't care for Final Destination with all items off, it's boring. I like the element of suprise and fun items bring, and I like playing in a variety of levels with lots of stuff to do. If you don't like it, fine, then play with items off on Final Destination. The game already allows you to make decisions like these, so why bother taking some features out if it'll just upset a large amount of the fanbase? This goes for both casual and hardcore players, casual take up the majority of Smash, but that doesn't mean the hardcore players don't matter and visa-versa.

 

[the grim lizard]

The fact that there is a techniques tab in the How to Play section means Sakurai cares about adv. techs, and it means he is appealing to the competitive players. They only have a couple on there right now, but there are a couple new ones, which means they want to advance the game and give people more options for strategies.

 

[Takeshi245]

The fact that there is a techniques tab in the How to Play section means Sakurai cares about adv. techs, and it means he is appealing to the competitive players. They only have a couple on there right now, but there are a couple new ones, which means they want to advance the game and give people more options for strategies.

Good point, grim lizard. For example, the footstool jump can have uses in both casual and competitive play as well. That technique seems interesting to me.

 

[Bassoonist]

this forum might not exist but for the tourney players and their itemless glitch-lovin' stage bannin' debauchery. the majority of you clowns weren't even here from 2003-2006. most of you will be gone by mid 2008 only to resurface a half decade later when the next smash is announced. tournaments are the lifeblood of this community. you complainers are leeches.

Quit saying the forum only exists for people who are tournament players. >_>

 

[Viewtiful_Jeff]

The fact that there is a techniques tab in the How to Play section means Sakurai cares about adv. techs, and it means he is appealing to the competitive players. They only have a couple on there right now, but there are a couple new ones, which means they want to advance the game and give people more options for strategies.

That doesn't prove Sakurai loves, hates, or even acknowledges the Advanced Techniques. Note how it says 'Techniques' and not 'Advanced Techniques'.

And if Sakurai is appealing to competitive players, then he must be makin' Shiggy quite mad, since that's the exact opposite of what he wants Nintendo to be doing right now.

 

[the grim lizard]

That doesn't prove Sakurai loves, hates, or even acknowledges the Advanced Techniques. Note how it says 'Techniques' and not 'Advanced Techniques'.

Yes it does. He knows about them. He intentionally put them in. He gave you bonuses for completing some of them In Melee.

And if Sakurai is appealing to competitive players, then he must be makin' Shiggy quite mad, since that's the exact opposite of what he wants Nintendo to be doing right now.

Who cares? (Besides, that's not even true)

 

[Adi]

Quit saying the forum only exists for people who are tournament players. >_>

Well this forum may not only be for competitive players but it certainly was created and sustained by them. If advanced techniques didn't exist there'd be little to no strategy to discuss and the tournament scene for smash wouldn't even exist.

 

[Bassoonist]

Well this forum may not only be for competitive players but it certainly was created and sustained by them. If advanced techniques didn't exist there'd be little to no strategy to discuss and the tournament scene for smash wouldn't even exist.

I know that. I'm just sick of people who play in tournaments act so arrogant about it.

 

[Binx]

Eoade: It's not as spiteful as you think. I guess you could say I'm a bit frustrated though. I understand the fact that tournaments are supposed to be based on skill, but that doesn't change the fact that it feels like all the fun is sucked out from the arbitrary set of rules that are attached to tournament play. When you dilute so much out of the game for the sake of making it about "skill", when playing a game is supposed to be about fun, it feels like the entire point is being missed.

As for saying how much certain stages and items add too much 'luck' to the game, all games have a certain amount of luck to them. That adds a layer of unpredictability. Skill is important yes, but it's not all that's important. I think saying "You only got lucky!" because you got blasted into next week by an Arwing is bad sportsmanship. Also, what about the saying, "Luck is part of one's skill." or "Luck favors the prepared"?

Also, qdMbp, I must disagree with what you said about Samus. Zero Suit has been around since Zero Mission (or even before that), and Samus has been more sexualized than this before. I personally think the Zero Suit is flattering without turning her into a sex object.

The set of rules aren't arbitrary at all, they were developed over years by the majority of tournament smashers to create a fair enviroment for us to compete in. If I was going to play smash with a my 10 year old brother or something on his bday and he had 50 of his little friends over and they were using items I would go ahead and just play with items for their sake and I am sure I would have plenty of fun anyways because I am SO much better than the average casual smasher it wouldnt matter, however against someone with similar skill items would make the game ******** and random and the way we would decide who wins would be by pokeball.

Hey guess what tourney***s, how about you go play a real fighting game?
You take out items, levels, andything "random" to have skill be the defining factor in fights.
Oh, except almost EVERY SINGLE FIGHTING GAME BEFORE SSB WAS LIKE THAT.
Way to remove everything that made SSB unique.
Maybe you should get your heads out of your ***** and play something like Marvel vs Capcom, a Street Fighter, or Soul Caliber.
Or are you afraid of playing a game without wavedashing?
Jesus Christ tourney***s are pathetic.

Have you tried wavedashing? It takes a while to learn and impliment into your game, I know your upset that you cant just roll the entire match against someone who can run at you and wavedash backwards and grab you but you need to just stop rolling man, its ok its a very beatable strat just learn to play the game you;ll be fine.

Dude, other fighting games stink. All you have to do to get a combo is rapidly press the attack button. Smash is faaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrr better than any of those. You actually can make up your combos as you go. Oh.....that's rough isn't it, having to actually MOVE YOUR FINGERS.

I second this. Smash has the most in depth control system for combos and such, alot more freedom of movement and tons of movement and attack options at all times.

Look at Mario Kart for the DS. If you play online, you'll be left in the dust if you don't exploit the game's physics and snake. If Brawl is online, I don't want to have to exploit the game just to keep up with the "tourney" players.

Learn to snake then, why would you want to play a game the simplest way, if you cant learn how to use a more advanced form of movement because its harder you should play with other lazy people or stop caring if you win.

What do you mean by this? You would still have to do stuff that was intended in the game like DI and l canceling as well as practice. Just because you get rid of "exploitations," it doesn't mean you would be able to keep up with "tourney" players. Play with your friends or quit any game with "tourney" players if you really do not feel like facing them.

This goes for all casual players IMO, if you dont want to change the way you are playing to accomodate us then dont, but if you arent willing to dont expect us to. I dont care how you play them game, I know I would beat you in the game.

It's interesting that you bring up this example actually because I have a story behind how I learned to snake in Mario Kart DS. I learned it when I got completely smoked in my first online match. In fact, I even thought he was hacking at first, and got pretty angry about it. However I played more online matches and still continued to get owned, so I realized that everybody can't be hacking. I went to Gamefaqs and that's where I first found out about snaking. I never complained about it for an instant, I practiced on time trial, owning some of the Nintendo Staff Ghosts in the process =P. When I came back, I managed to hold my own with some of the Snakers and it gave me a real sense of accomplishment and pride that wouldn't have been acheived otherwise if I just won by pressing one button to throw a blue shell.

My point is that the intent of the developer is irrelvant. It is essentially it's own entity using whatever rules have arisen after it's release. If you still have this feeling that exploiting a game's physics to win is cheap I strongly advise you to read the article at sirlin.net

QFT

 

[greenblob]

To people who are telling us to play a different fighting game: Screw you. Go play Mario Party.

 

[Rikka]

Meh, Snaking wouldn't be as bad if it wasn't for two things:

1.The only tactic that can beat Snaking is Snaking.
2.There is no other kind of advance move to add to it.
Correct me if I'm wrong on either point.

Sure, Fox and Falco are dominant in Smash, but others are played and all the advance techs come together to form different playstyles.

 

[linkw00t]

Listen to these guys. It takes a LOT to be skilled ONLY under certain circumstances(Level specific, items off, etc.)

Obviously the most SKILLED players are the ones that are restricting the gameplay the most. Isn't that a bit different from most games? Don't the less skilled players usually set the specific guidelines?

 

[greenblob]

About items: no one here is saying that items detract from the game. Items enrich the game. The reason they're turned off is the item factor. And I heard that Ken is a beast with items.

Same with stages. You'll notice that stages are primarily turned off for randomness, not for stage hazards.

 

[Adi]

Listen to these guys. It takes a LOT to be skilled ONLY under certain circumstances(Level specific, items off, etc.)

Obviously the most SKILLED players are the ones that are restricting the gameplay the most. Isn't that a bit different from most games? Don't the less skilled players usually set the specific guidelines?

Because summoning a legendary pokemon from a pokeball takes much more skill than doing an infinite drill shine amirite?

 

[Imperial Wraith]

"The majority of players would not miss it". FFS change it to

The majority of non competetive/serious players who don't even know about it would no miss it. You just lost all credibity with that statement. This forum is just a big flamezone.

 

[maxpower1227]

Because summoning a legendary pokemon from a pokeball takes much more skill than doing an infinite drill shine amirite?

o_O

First of all, legendary pokémons are fairly rare in SSBM, so they're unlikely to be that big of a problem. Second, any combo with the word "infinite" in its title is cheap imo. It looks cool, but if it's something that the other player can't do anything about once it hits, then it's far more of an effect on the match than a pokémon would be.

 

[Adi]

o_O

First of all, legendary pokémons are fairly rare in SSBM, so they're unlikely to be that big of a problem. Second, any combo with the word "infinite" in its title is cheap imo. It looks cool, but if it's something that the other player can't do anything about once it hits, then it's far more of an effect on the match than a pokémon would be.

The effect of either action is irrelvant to my statement. The point I was trying to make was regarding skill involved in each of them.

The competitive standard for tournaments was never just created abritarily (sp?). It was an evolution of rule sets, and in fact the original Smash Bros. tournaments did involve items and all stages. The path to a more fair tournament scene was an ardous one, and the rule sets that you see today are the result of 5-6 years of debating. We played with all items and stages, we realized the error in doing so, and made revisions to the tournament standard.

 

[Superstar]

The Fox Infinite is pure theory, its impossible to pull off unless you have a wall, and the opponent is dumb enough to get caught by it. Fox Infinites almost never happen.

There is also Wobbling, which is the Ice Climber's infinite, but without Wobbling the Ice Climbers suck, so it "balances" the game even more, isn't that what you want?

And I'm pretty sure casual tournaments exist. Someone commented that in one tournament they saw [a friend of mine on another site], Jigglypuff was banned cause of rollout XD.

 

[Limey]

Aweful. Items ruin matches, and stages with cheap gimmicks are fun, but rather trivial. Honestly, the serious pro smasher, who dominates the gameplay and is the main consumer/user, is who the game should be catered around. not the little ten year olds who dont kno what a smash attack it. really, if you want that, go back to SSB on the 64 and leave all us smashers alone.

Smash pros are not the main audience for the game. There are far less of them than casual players. I'm sure your post has been picked up on by many people, but you're one of the elitist tourney players that piss me off, so i had to comment on it. You are not the sole reason Smash Bros was created. If you think that it should only ever be used for competitive play, like your post suggests, go get a ****ing life a play a sport.

Anyway, as i've replied to the thread saying why tourney rules are good, i'll reply to this, just to be fair.

All your ideas are stupid.

I play casually, but i don't ****ing force tourney players to use items, or tell them that they're wrong. If they want to turn them off, so what? I don't get why you can't blissfully play Brawl in your house, like i will, not worrying about what other people do with the game.

 

[linkw00t]

Yes, it does take more technical knowhow to preform a drillshine infinite. But knowing when and where to throw a Pokeball does as well. Also, each player has JUST as much benefit from Pokeballs. and the same likelyhood that a Legendary would appear.

Wouldn't the more "Skilled" player be able to avoid the legendary, in general, and still fend off the n00b item user?