How should "The SHINE" be in brawl?

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

RRRrragh, I'm so sick of you people talking about how shine infinite is the reason why shine is imbalanced. If that's what you honestly think than you really shouldn't be talking.

Exactly.Call me blind to the obvious,but I don't see why people think that shine will be removed because it affects the tournament community.In the eyes of the creators of the game,it's semi balanced for conventional play.

Multiple JC shines and Infinates are irrelivant.Both are no use in tournaments or even high level play,they should only be used on spin attack spamming noobs who don't know how to play the game an a deeper level.Only eye candy.

 

[WHO?AreYou]

I'm guessing the shine will stay, but I hope it ends up being more like Jigglypuff's Rest than what it is now. Perhaps they could mix Falco and Fox's shines together. Something like if you hit with the inside part of the reflector, you shine like Fox, but if you hit with the outside, then the opponent goes straight up like Falco's reflector.
This would let the essence of the shine remain for the hardcore players, but make it a little more difficult, or at least add another layer of precision.
I'll admit it, I don't like the shine. But that doesn't mean it should be completely eliminated.

 

[Adi]

Exactly.Call me blind to the obvious,but I don't see why people think that shine will be removed because it affects the tournament community.In the eyes of the creators of the game,it's semi balanced for conventional play.

Multiple JC shines and Infinates are irrelivant.Both are no use in tournaments or even high level play,they should only be used on spin attack spamming noobs who don't know how to play the game an a deeper level.Only eye candy.

Thank god I'm not the only one. It's obvious these people are completely talking out of their ***es and have no clue as to what exactly to expect in a smash match vs. skilled players.

As far as what the above poster said, the idea wouldn't work because both of the shines are really tailored to their specific character. If Fox had falco's shine he would have a very small follow up options limited to only u-air. While I can see that being somewhat effective a horizontal shine is useful for Fox because it allows him to jab, or throw or an almost infinite amount of possibilities thereby increasing his potential greatly.

In any case what I'm trying to say is that combining both reflectors wouldn't add much to the competitive fox because A) Falco's shine is relatively useless to him and B) The shine's width is so small that you couldn't possibly aim which part you wanted to hit with, it would end up being about luck.

 

[CStrife187]

falco's shine is not useless, unless you meant falco's shine would be useless to fox, in which case I must agree.

 

[WHO?AreYou]

In any case what I'm trying to say is that combining both reflectors wouldn't add much to the competitive fox because A) Falco's shine is relatively useless to him and B) The shine's width is so small that you couldn't possibly aim which part you wanted to hit with, it would end up being about luck.

Falco's shine useless? You mean to Fox or Falco?
And the shine's radius is not as small as one might think. A Smasher had compiled a frame by frame analysis of most of the characters movesetts showing where they attack and for how long (I can't remember who or where it was...I'll try to find it. EDIT: Found it, it got taken down for some reason...) In it you can see that Fox's Shine extends out beyond his body quite a bit, while Fox himself is made invulnerable. If they shrunk the "Shine" radius a bit, that would make it more of a precision attack. Again, like Rest, the dedicated smasher is capable of using techniques that wouldn't seem possible. Jiggly's rest has a very small hitbox, yet players still manage to hit with it. If Fox's shine was shrunk down to that size (okay, a bit bigger than that) I doubt it would prevent players from using it.

 

[Gum]

Falco's shine useless? You mean to Fox or Falco?
And the shine's radius is not as small as one might think. A Smasher had compiled a frame by frame analysis of most of the characters movesetts showing where they attack and for how long (I can't remember who or where it was...I'll try to find it. EDIT: Found it, it got taken down for some reason..¥öáÈØ)iN2çê4ЬAêx¤Cä0ƒrx's Shine extends out beyond his body quite a bit, while Fox himself is made invulnerable. If they shrunk the "Shine" radius a bit, that would make it more of a precision attack. Again, like Rest, the dedicated smasher is capable of using techniques that wouldn't seem possible. Jiggly's rest has a very small hitbox, yet players still manage to hit with it. If Fox's shine was shrunk down to that size (okay, a bit bigger than that) I doubt it would prevent players from using it.

Thats unecessary though. All that really needs to be done is make other characters' stronger moves more interesting and usable in more situations like shine, that way you could play your favorite character and break wutever move they have that is equal to shine. Im just saying it would make the whole game better in general.

 

[Impmacaque]

I believe it's a bit silly to assume Ninty takes the same path with the "clone" characters as they did in Smash. Although I could see significant moveset overhauls for falco, ganon, and doc being massively unpopular, I wouldn't put it beyond the devs.

Shine needs to be retuned, in any case. I'm hoping they don't nerf it into oblivion by adding huge lag frames after initial use that makes it basically impossible to cancel out of with any speed.. But the smaller hitbox seems reasonable since right now it's *moderately* forgiving.

 

[Gum]

I believe it's a bit silly to assume Ninty takes the same path with the "clone" characters as they did in Smash. Although I could see significant moveset overhauls for falco, ganon, and doc being massively unpopular, I wouldn't put it beyond the devs.

Shine needs to be retuned, in any case. I'm hoping they don't nerf it into oblivion by adding huge lag frames after initial use that makes it basically impossible to cancel out of with any speed.. But the smaller hitbox seems reasonable since right now it's *moderately* forgiving.

no seriousley, a new moveset for ganon would be awesome. I mean, it's ****ing ganon, that dude is a beast. He should have a projectile and the use of his sword in Brawl.

 

[Press22]

Well, if you thought about it enough in a match you could get away from shines, its all wrong place wrong time thing.

 

[Eaode]

Okay people, we get it! The shine is NOT an instant win. There ARE some ways around it. It is DIFFICULT to use....

But it still needs fixing.


I don't care if the top players aren't insant winners who use JC shines to break shields and win matches in 40 seconds because of shine-spiking. Why does it mater? It still has the potential to completely take control of the other player in a match. It comes out in ONE frame! All the people who want it as-is are probably so used to using it and don't want it gone. I'll admit it, if the shine isn't as powerful as in Melee, I will miss it. Just like I'll miss Falco's 0-afterlag SHL that leads into a free grab/shine and makes an unbelievably easy aproach. But that doesn't mean I want it to stay. Just because it's not a winbutton doesn't mean it's not broken.

Why is the fact that it's difficult even brought up? Is that relevant? Sure it takes a while to get the hang of it, but once you do, it's muscle memory. It doesn't mater how hard it is, that doesn't justify how powerful it is.

Again, it shouldn't be completely destroyed, that would suck, hardcore. Maybe just tweak it a bit. maybe make it lanch them up (with fixed knockback) at a low angle (like 20 degrees or something). You'd still have combos, but eliminate 0% shinespiking. Also, make it wall-techable, eliminating wall infinites. See, if you launch up-sideways, but make it techable, you can still chain combos before they reach the ground, but you can't wall infinite them. You could still flatland drillshine infinite, but it's a step in the right direction.


IC's infinite isn't that widely used, and it's situational, but that doesn't mean it should remain, because it's a rogramming oversight that allows complete control of the other player, making 1 grab =1 stock.



^^ sorry if it seems incoherrent, im kinda sleepy and distracted.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Okay people, we get it! The shine is NOT an instant win. There ARE some ways around it. It is DIFFICULT to use....

But it still needs fixing.


I don't care if the top players aren't insant winners who use JC shines to break shields and win matches in 40 seconds because of shine-spiking. Why does it mater? It still has the potential to completely take control of the other player in a match. It comes out in ONE frame! All the people who want it as-is are probably so used to using it and don't want it gone. I'll admit it, if the shine isn't as powerful as in Melee, I will miss it. Just like I'll miss Falco's 0-afterlag SHL that leads into a free grab/shine and makes an unbelievably easy aproach. But that doesn't mean I want it to stay. Just because it's not a winbutton doesn't mean it's not broken.

Why is the fact that it's difficult even brought up? Is that relevant? Sure it takes a while to get the hang of it, but once you do, it's muscle memory. It doesn't mater how hard it is, that doesn't justify how powerful it is.

Again, it shouldn't be completely destroyed, that would suck, hardcore. Maybe just tweak it a bit. maybe make it lanch them up (with fixed knockback) at a low angle (like 20 degrees or something). You'd still have combos, but eliminate 0% shinespiking. Also, make it wall-techable, eliminating wall infinites. See, if you launch up-sideways, but make it techable, you can still chain combos before they reach the ground, but you can't wall infinite them. You could still flatland drillshine infinite, but it's a step in the right direction.


IC's infinite isn't that widely used, and it's situational, but that doesn't mean it should remain, because it's a rogramming oversight that allows complete control of the other player, making 1 grab =1 stock.



^^ sorry if it seems incoherrent, im kinda sleepy and distracted.

A really intelligent post ^_^

maybe the shine should change the way you said it because lets face it, well always have the shine from melee.

I dont want it changed though because I dont think that fox should be shield grabbed, the shine is his anti shield grab and it takes practice to perfect shining someone after attacking their shield and before they can grab.

Main reason fox shouldnt be shieldgrabbed so easily and have an option to escape it at higher levels of play (the level where you can consistently get your shield attack to shine out) is because he falls so **** fast, so once he gets grabbed by many many characters, Marth being the most obvious, but also mario, another fox, even mewtwo can either chainthrow him or inflict MASSIVE throw combo damage on him.

 

[YOSHIDO]

hmm the developers keep sayin their going to focus alot more on arieal battle. U'll proabably beable to di alot more. maybe even tech off the shine itself.

 

[dReAMCloUd - Assault K 40]

Yo you guys need to actually experiment before you talk............first off fox can be shield grabbed you just have to be quick and expecting the shuffles.....in other words, fox cannot just throw shuffles out there randomly. Against good players this WILL NOT work.......play better people and you may actually notice that interception is a viable option for much of the rest of the cast. In addition, as of now the ridiculous potential of fox is not even close to being unlocked and thus he currently is not broken....why mess with something that isn't even close to reaching its own metagame. Chill out until someone comes onto the scene with near perfect control like ability while actually thinking as fast as they're playing.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Yo you guys need to actually experiment before you talk............first off fox can be shield grabbed you just have to be quick and expecting the shuffles.....in other words, fox cannot just throw shuffles out there randomly. Against good players this WILL NOT work.......play better people and you may actually notice that interception is a viable option for much of the rest of the cast. In addition, as of now the ridiculous potential of fox is not even close to being unlocked and thus he currently is not broken....why mess with something that isn't even close to reaching its own metagame. Chill out until someone comes onto the scene with near perfect control like ability while actually thinking as fast as they're playing.

Which wont happen ^_^ So yeah, I agree withou 100%

 

[TastelessRamen]

...

You guys realize that Fox is almost certainly the strongest character in the entire game?

I mean, why balance it, right? It's better broken?

give me a break.

 

[psicicle]

I find it funny how there is a debate here about how fox is "ridiculously" overpowered, and in the IC forums there is a debate about how the ICs are "ridiculously overpowered".

To response to tasteless ramen, if fox gets nerfed, there will be a new "best" character. Should we just nerf everybody down to jabs or (less extreme) to the same movesets just to maintain perfect balance? I think that a small amount of imbalance is perfectly fine, as long as it keeps seperating the good from the great.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

...

You guys realize that Fox is almost certainly the strongest character in the entire game?

I mean, why balance it, right? It's better broken?

give me a break.

You do realize your fox would be 5 stocked by Azens mario? And that despite how good fox is, there are still counterpicks, IE : Falco and Marth.

Also, it depends on your playstyle.

Just watch shadowclaw, TAJ's bottom tier mewtwo, RIPS through fox players. He even has some like... 0 to death from grab combos going on. its sick.

No, the game doesn't need to be ''balanced'' this isnt an RTS, this is a fighting game. Nerfs are not necessary

However they should make some of the OTHER characters suck less, no arguments there.

Oh and Captain falcon needs a better recovery.

 

[GenG]

Oh and Captain falcon needs a better recovery.

No, he needs to **** more. Who needs recovery when you can't be knocked out?

I think the shine is allright, maybe less knockback, DIable (do you can?) or meteor-cancellable to give chances for recovery, because it's very easy to put it as an edgeguard move for some recovery moves.

However, what makes shine so useful and versatile is the wavedash (consecutive shines for shield attack, waveshine to whatever), and that opens for infinites. They should check that before messing with the shine itself. Not removing wavedash, but tweaking it for some characters or moves.

I can afford to lose wavedash (wavelanding, etc.) for a better balanced game

 

[psicicle]

fox infinites are impractical

 

[Eaode]

^^ Altghough impractical, they're still unfair.

Yes, let's keep an infinite combo in a fighting game, because well, its not too practical anyway.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

^^ Altghough impractical, they're still unfair.

Yes, let's keep an infinite combo in a fighting game, because well, its not too practical anyway.

BUT YOU CANT DO IT IN A REAL MATCH 99.9999% OF THE TIME

 

[Eaode]

WHY DOES THAT MATTER? ITS STILL AN INFINITE. INFINITES ARE BAD FOR BALANCE!

I hate caps xD

 

[Eaode]

EDIT: just to clarify, are you talking about the flatland drillshine, or the wall assisted Drill/wave shine? b/c the wall assisted one is actually pretty darn easy.


no edit is gay

 

[DainBramaged]

No, he needs to **** more.

Wellll .......

 

[psicicle]

so, if you had a button combination, for example (X,A,R,B,start,joystick in some angle) that had to be excecuted with precision of 1/60th of a second in a pixel perfect spot on one stage, that took half an hour to excecute, that resulted in the opponents automatic loss of a stock, even though it would be impossible to do in a real match (let alone be discovered), would it go towards whatever character could do it's brokenness?

Although not that extreme, the fox infinites DO NOT EXIST in tournament play! Seriously, is roy's fully charged B move "broken" because it has too much knockback? Nobody will pull that off.

 

[Impmacaque]

Just for the record, Nintendo can deliver live updates and patches through the Wii net connectivity. I hope they don't go patching all the unique player-discovered techs like Fox's infinite (even if it is impractical, the only way to get rid of it would also ruin conventional use of fox's DB as a spike, etc) - Imagine how badly *that* would've sucked. -.-

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

WHY DOES THAT MATTER? ITS STILL AN INFINITE. INFINITES ARE BAD FOR BALANCE!

I hate caps xD

but if you cant do it in a normal match, unless you're Lunin and you get a really good chance to do so vs a peach or a falcon, its not gonna happen.

As for against the wall, ya that one IS easy, even I can do it consistently. But the solution to that is stay away from the wall vs fox, duh..

How does an impracticle ''infinate'' that has been done way more in training mode than in a real match unbalance the game?

 

[dizzy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDwgHCw2GMs

^Which is why the shine is mechanically broken, infinites aside...

It's not really a matter of practicality. Yeah, it takes a load of tech skill. But the fact that Fox has the potential to completely **** any defense based on finger speed alone is just stupid. A bunch of you say that nobody will ever get that fast, but if people do get that fast, and they figure out that "all your shield are belong to us" because developers decided the shine would be "too hard to use in practice anyway," you'd better not be the ones whining about it later.

That said, it wouldn't even be that hard to fix the **** thing. As far as shine infinites go, just make it so the shine's knockback increases with damage, like every other attack in the game. Then make sure that DI works properly... so that DIing the shine upwards will get you airborne and DIing left/right will alter the sliding distance. Done. No more flipping shine infinites.

As far as the repeated jump-cancel shield-**** shine tactics go, just give the shine landing lag when it's used in mid-air. Here's how the consecutive shines work in the first place: you shine, you jump-cancel, you shine as soon as you leave the ground, you land-cancel (SHB-style) with no lag, and you shine again. But if we just give the shine's landing animation some lag, Fox won't be able to shine consecutively to break shields.

With these fixes, waveshine tactics besides infinites are mostly unaffected. The shine's landing lag wouldn't apply to waveshines, because waveshines don't involve shining in the air at all. The land lag would only keep people from abusing consecutive jc shines. For waveshine combos, Fox now has to think about the opponent's damage and follow DI, but it's not like that's a bad thing anyway.

Yeah. So there you go. Who wins again?

 

[psicicle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDwgHCw2GMs

^Which is why the shine is mechanically broken, infinites aside...

It's not really a matter of practicality. Yeah, it takes a load of tech skill. But the fact that Fox has the potential to completely **** any defense based on finger speed alone is just stupid. A bunch of you say that nobody will ever get that fast, but if people do get that fast, and they figure out that "all your shield are belong to us" because developers decided the shine would be "too hard to use in practice anyway," you'd better not be the ones whining about it later.

hmmm, IF. Oh wait, if we are considering that people can do that, why don't we examine powershielding. I mean, somebody who can do that as much as he or she wants to is about as likely as somebody who can powershield anything, so just powershield them. Solved.

 

[dizzy]

hmmm, IF. Oh wait, if we are considering that people can do that, why don't we examine powershielding. I mean, somebody who can do that as much as he or she wants to is about as likely as somebody who can powershield anything, so just powershield them. Solved.

Um, how about no, because powershielding is done on reaction, which makes it a completely different type of skill than jc shining over and over again. Fail.

 

[psicicle]

Well we are considering stuff outside of the realm of possibility for humans. Saying fail does not constitute a sentence or an argument.

 

[psicicle]

Don't kill me for the double post but the edit button doesn't work. Merge pls.

In addition to what I just said, I have as much reason to expect 100% powershielding as you do to expect consistent JC shines, all you said was IF people could JC shine infinitely. All I said was that we have as much reason to expect that as powershielding everything.

 

[Eaode]

Has anybody ever been able to powershield everything? JC shining is at a CONSTANT speed, there is no reaction involved if you get started. even though the JC shines are extremeley difficult themselves, it is much more reasonable to believe that someone can use muscle memory to press a bunch of buttons in about 10 frames than it is for someone to powershield (as in, press on the same exact frame of getting hit) on an attack that comes out on one frame.

This is the only place the argument of "well its too difficult" comes into play. It is actually completely humanly impossible to instantaneously react to something that, by the time you comprehend tha it has been used, has already done damage to you on FRAME ONE.

If someone COULD powershield shines because they themselves memorized the timing for perfect JC shines and when to shield, all the fox has to do is delay the shine one frame and bam, you're back to shield ****.

 

[i8waffles612]

like i have an idea on what the shine is lol

 

[the grim lizard]

I hope it does 1% damage and has knockback equal to Ice Climbers' dair. Serves them shiners right. It pisses me off how a move with a name and intention of REFLECTOR has become the main source of Fox/Falco's potential...

It's mostly Fox, but I agree...

Where they heck did the "reflector" come from anyway?? This?!:

DO A BARREL ROLL! (Press Z or R twice)

 

[RyokoYaksa]

JC Shine infinites is muscle memory. Perfect powershielding is either reactionary or a total fluke with faster attacks. They don't meet the same expectations by a long shot.

 

[Eaode]

Thank you Ryoko!

 

[Solid_Sneak]

Hmm it's iffy to me because all characters are categorized into tiers...

It's hard to say the shine is broken if you're using say, a lower tier character vs. Fox. Of course it may seem broken because you're lower tier and don't match properly with Fox.

If it was Fox vs. Fox, then you can see if it's broken, but then.... You have it too. I guess it's only fair to accuse it of Imba, if you use Shiek.

 

[Wrath`]

What if the shine were to be removed? What would you do?

Now depending on how you answer this will ether prove or disprove a point i am making on another thread.

 

[Solid_Sneak]

I think the argument is it should be nerfed, not removed.