How should "The SHINE" be in brawl?

[SHINE FX]

Look at Ken... His Fox hardly shines, and he still *****.
Shine alone doesn't make Fox win.

 

[psicicle]

I'm just making a point that it is not practical for a human to JC shine enough to break a shield or powershield, and so those techniques should not be considered in the shine's "broken"ness. The original post said "if". I also say "if". They are both probably not going to happen. Show me a tourney match where somebody breaks a shield with JC shines and I'll concede the point.

 

[Eaode]

Doesn't DaCheezWizard claim to have this Shield Breaking JC shine Prowess? Although I think he uses falco, but same point. I also heard somewhere that BS has this ability, Although it's probably not reliable.


Anyway, why does it matter? Your actually right, JC shield breaking shines are never used, but how did that get brought up? Any changes suggested for the shine already have not even touched uon that issue.

Hell, I don't know how they WOULD change that.

 

[dizzy]

crap, double post...

 

[dizzy]

I'm just making a point that it is not practical for a human to JC shine enough to break a shield or powershield, and so those techniques should not be considered in the shine's "broken"ness. The original post said "if". I also say "if". They are both probably not going to happen. Show me a tourney match where somebody breaks a shield with JC shines and I'll concede the point.

It's true that people on the SSBM scene typically don't abuse infinite jc shines. But that doesn't mean it won't happen in the future, because as technically demanding as they are, jc shines are just a matter of muscle memory. Harder combos have been mastered before, especially in other fighting games, so it's not unreasonable to believe that players could eventually master jc shines with enough practice.

On the other hand, perfect powershielding simply cannot be done consistently. Besides the fact that it requires frame-perfect timing, it also requires the player to predict ALL of the opponent's attacks. That's not just difficult, it's literally impossible. Your comparison doesn't work at all.

There's also no real reason not to remove the infinites, no matter how unlikely you think they are. They don't benefit the game, but they could have the potential to throw off game balance, however small. Why not get rid of them now to guarantee that there won't be problems later?

 

[psicicle]

Yes, the infinites should probably be somehow removed either way, what was being argued was that they are not what makes the shine broken. A page or so back, several people tried to bring them up as the reason that it was broken.

 

[TastelessRamen]

I find it funny how there is a debate here about how fox is "ridiculously" overpowered, and in the IC forums there is a debate about how the ICs are "ridiculously overpowered".

To response to tasteless ramen, if fox gets nerfed, there will be a new "best" character. Should we just nerf everybody down to jabs or (less extreme) to the same movesets just to maintain perfect balance? I think that a small amount of imbalance is perfectly fine, as long as it keeps seperating the good from the great.

This is not a small amount of imbalance

Melee is a great game which is, unfortunately, completely broken. I have recently switched to guilty gear because there is something immensely cool about being able to be competitive with any character as long as you learn them well and play right.

Even super low tiers can do reasonably well in big name tournaments with the top players in the world in Guilty Gear, and guess what, the movsets for the different characters are wildly divergent and varied, much more so than smash brothers.

A game doesn't have to have only one character to be balanced, and Guilty Gear proves it. So your point is moot, diluting every character into one, boring, character is a silly counterpoint and really has no relevance.

Instead, how about they make a balanced game which allows any character to be competitive, instead of less than 25% of them.

Oh, what a novel idea.

I'm surprised that everyone is so against it, to be honest.

 

[TastelessRamen]

You do realize your fox would be 5 stocked by Azens mario? And that despite how good fox is, there are still counterpicks, IE : Falco and Marth.

Also, it depends on your playstyle.

Just watch shadowclaw, TAJ's bottom tier mewtwo, RIPS through fox players. He even has some like... 0 to death from grab combos going on. its sick.

No, the game doesn't need to be ''balanced'' this isnt an RTS, this is a fighting game. Nerfs are not necessary

However they should make some of the OTHER characters suck less, no arguments there.

Oh and Captain falcon needs a better recovery.

A better player is a better player is a better player, and Azen is certainly a better player than I am.

Still doesn't mean the game is well balanced at all, and guess what, it isn't. A player at Azens level would five stock his mario with their Fox, your point is moot.

I can five stock a complete noobs fox with my Mario, because I am a more experienced/better player. That doesn't mean Fox isn't vastly, and I mean VASTLY superior to Mario in almost every way.

Why have a game that is balanced in such a way that one character is simply better than another in every way? I'm sorry, that's lame.
ps. Sorry for double post.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

A better player is a better player is a better player,

Exactly. hence why FUMI is like.. well he.. I cant put it into words

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnwDlircP2c

So if you're a better player you can beat a lower player with a low tier character vs a high tier, correct?

the thing about fox is, he's a fast faller. No matter how you look at it, all you need is the skill advantage IE : being a better player and if you know a low tier character well, you can combo fox to oblivion.

And if you're on an equal level with the player, you might still win if you know a low tier to a godly level because if hes not used to fighting say... DK then perhaps you get the mindgame advantage?

If you are lower in skill you mightaswell counterpick fox with marth and hope for the best. You'll probably lose.

Skill is the deciding factor, not tiers. Tiers DO exist. fox IS a better character than any other in the game, but he has to be used correctly to unlock that potential..

I dunno thats just the way I see it.

I say many characters need a buff, but fox nor his shine should not be nerfed.

 

[Mamush]

BUFF THE PUFF! XD

kirby that is...

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

BUFF THE PUFF! XD

kirby that is...

^^ agreed. His dair shouldnt have startup animation. It should just bloody happen.

 

[Takalth]

That said, it wouldn't even be that hard to fix the **** thing. As far as shine infinites go, just make it so the shine's knockback increases with damage, like every other attack in the game. Then make sure that DI works properly... so that DIing the shine upwards will get you airborne and DIing left/right will alter the sliding distance. Done. No more flipping shine infinites.

Dizzy's suggestion is best because it allows a skilled way of evading a skilled attack (rather than just disabling the attack somehow). Just add the ability to walltech and you've covered the wall infinite, as well.

Though I should point out one error here. DIing along the trajectory of a hit does not change how far you go, because DI only changes direction, not distance. Thus you couldn't increase or decrease how far you go from the shine. On the other hand, a slight upward DI would put you just above the ground and permit you to tech almost instantly, so putting some proper DI in would allow an escape, even if you kept the fixed knockback.

 

[Stryks]

I bet shine will be nerfed, doubt sakurai will make it more powerful than it already is...

 

[petre]

lol if sakurai buffed the shine i think i would cry...reduce knockback on the ground and increase it in the air, as well as sending opponents straight downwards...also double the damage and stun time. there! fox is complete.

 

[maelstrom218]

This is not a small amount of imbalance

Melee is a great game which is, unfortunately, completely broken. I have recently switched to guilty gear because there is something immensely cool about being able to be competitive with any character as long as you learn them well and play right.

Even super low tiers can do reasonably well in big name tournaments with the top players in the world in Guilty Gear, and guess what, the movsets for the different characters are wildly divergent and varied, much more so than smash brothers.

A game doesn't have to have only one character to be balanced, and Guilty Gear proves it. So your point is moot, diluting every character into one, boring, character is a silly counterpoint and really has no relevance.

Instead, how about they make a balanced game which allows any character to be competitive, instead of less than 25% of them.

Oh, what a novel idea.

I'm surprised that everyone is so against it, to be honest.

Er. . .Smash is completely broken? GGXX is incredibly balanced? You, good sir, need to recheck your facts. MVC2 is a game RIDDLED with infinites and broken tactics that makes wobbling, chaingrabbing, and infinite shining look tame in comparison. Once you see vids of what Magneto can do, you'll understand. Crazy lockdowns and ridiculous pressuring combos that exist in MVC2 are absent in Smash, yet MVC2 is wildly popular.

And GGXX has its fair share of really stupid broken stuff as well. In #Reloaded, Eddie was clearly broken, since his corner pressure ***** everyone for free, and required practically no skill to use. There were dust loops that were essentially inescapable and caused massive amounts of damage (Sol and Baiken come to mind). Even in the newest iteration, Accent Core, you have really unfair stuff like Testament's Badlands loop, Baiken's superman counter (a virtual get-out-of-pressure-for-free card). . .and this game is BALANCED?

I think you have to revise your definition of "balanced." As far as I know, Smash and GGXX are pretty decent, balance-wise compared to other crazy games like SF3S and MVC2. There's a lot less broken stuff in both Smash and GGXX.

 

[GenG]

lol if sakurai buffed the shine i think i would cry...reduce knockback on the ground and increase it in the air, as well as sending opponents straight downwards...also double the damage and stun time. there! fox is complete.

Give Fox 5 jumps like Pit: That's what I call complete. You can literally **** recoveries jcing over and over.

 

[TastelessRamen]

Er. . .Smash is completely broken? GGXX is incredibly balanced? You, good sir, need to recheck your facts. MVC2 is a game RIDDLED with infinites and broken tactics that makes wobbling, chaingrabbing, and infinite shining look tame in comparison. Once you see vids of what Magneto can do, you'll understand. Crazy lockdowns and ridiculous pressuring combos that exist in MVC2 are absent in Smash, yet MVC2 is wildly popular.

And GGXX has its fair share of really stupid broken stuff as well. In #Reloaded, Eddie was clearly broken, since his corner pressure ***** everyone for free, and required practically no skill to use. There were dust loops that were essentially inescapable and caused massive amounts of damage (Sol and Baiken come to mind). Even in the newest iteration, Accent Core, you have really unfair stuff like Testament's Badlands loop, Baiken's superman counter (a virtual get-out-of-pressure-for-free card). . .and this game is BALANCED?

I think you have to revise your definition of "balanced." As far as I know, Smash and GGXX are pretty decent, balance-wise compared to other crazy games like SF3S and MVC2. There's a lot less broken stuff in both Smash and GGXX.

Yeah, Guilty Gear has had several broken moves, and can be relatively unbalanced. You're missing two important points, however

1) Guilty Gear is STILL infinitely more balanced than Smash Brothers

2) They update the game with new versions regularly, and fix the broken elements that they find, in order to keep it as balanced as possible, and that's what i'm suggesting they do with Smash. They've also managed to do so with a great deal of success, and if you've played Slash or Accent Core you would know what I mean.


As a Testament player, I take issue, yes, he is very good in the newer versions. But the badlands loop is EXTREMELY situational, and you can only pull it off on an opponent who you completely out pace. You have to get them exactly where you want them and they have to fall for it. That being said, it is a bit too powerful. But my main point is that they made an effort to balance it, and yes, there are problems, but they have more or less succeeded.

I wasn't saying Guilty Gear is perfectly balanced, what I was saying is that it is wholly within the realm of possibility to make a game which is both more balanced than Smash Brothers and which has much more diversity among the character roster than Smash Brothers, something which it is almost inarguable that the Guilty Gear series does.

I would never hold up MvC2 as an example of good game balance because, well, it's a terrible example, one of the most broken fighters ever, except earlier entries in its' own series.

Yes, there are plenty of good strats and overpowered abilities in Guilty Gear, but the truth of the situation is that even characters rated the lowest of the low (robo-ky in Slash) can still win big tournaments.

Show me a Smash Tournament where Bowser or Mewto took home 1st place and i'll show you a tournament that didn't happen. Even the mid tiers have little to no chance at all in competitive, high level, Smash Brothers. A players only recourse is to pick up one of the tops and try to have some fun with that.

What could be more one dimensional, what could be more boring?

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Hey, guilty gear is gay. And smash owns it. Stop making these god**** balance comparisons.

Does Guilty gear have captain falcon, or the best fighting game system ever?

sorry just had to say that. Smash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever.

 

[CutMet]

Captain Falcon and Ice Climbers are Middle Tier and can still do well in tournaments. Just saying middle tier does have a chance.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Alright screw this post. Im starting over.

1) Guilty Gear is STILL infinitely more balanced than Smash Brothers

2) They update the game with new versions regularly, and fix the broken elements that they find, in order to keep it as balanced as possible, and that's what i'm suggesting they do with Smash. They've also managed to do so with a great deal of success, and if you've played Slash or Accent Core you would know what I mean.


As a Testament player, I take issue, yes, he is very good in the newer versions. But the badlands loop is EXTREMELY situational, and you can only pull it off on an opponent who you completely out pace. You have to get them exactly where you want them and they have to fall for it. That being said, it is a bit too powerful. But my main point is that they made an effort to balance it, and yes, there are problems, but they have more or less succeeded.

I wasn't saying Guilty Gear is perfectly balanced, what I was saying is that it is wholly within the realm of possibility to make a game which is both more balanced than Smash Brothers and which has much more diversity among the character roster than Smash Brothers, something which it is almost inarguable that the Guilty Gear series does.

3 reasons why you're Wrong.

1. Guilty Gear isn't smash.
2. Guilty Gear is health based.
3. Refer to #2

Ok?

GG. You think you can compare that stuff to smash on this forum?

''Show me ya moves!''

 

[dizzy]

3 reasons why you're Wrong.

1. Guilty Gear isn't smash.
2. Guilty Gear is health based.
3. Refer to #2

Ok?

GG. You think you can compare that stuff to smash on this forum?

''Show me ya moves!''

1. Guilty Gear is awesome. Smash is awesome too, but awesome is obviously not reserved for Smash, because Smash does not have Bridget.
2. Health-based does not mean shallow and unplayable and boring, because health-based gave rise to Bridget.
3. See #2. Also, Bridget kicks Captain Falcon's ***, golden nipple buttons and all. Proof: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=bridget&word2=captain+falcon

 

[psicicle]

umm that's because a lot of people are talking about a bridget from somewhere else. It's kind of a common name

look at this:

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=bridget&word2=falcon

 

[FrozenRoy]

If I may state my opinion.

In my, humble, opinion. The shine does not NEED to be nerfed. However, I do believe some people are going to far. It COULD be nerfed.

My three options(If I were making the shine):

1. Keep it the same(Most likely)
2. More lag VS. Shields, perhaps 7-8 Frames?(Second most likely)
3. 3-4 Lag when used, period.(Least likely)

Flame me or whatever, that is my opinion.

PS: Off-topic: Roy needs an upgrade.

 

[dizzy]

umm that's because a lot of people are talking about a bridget from somewhere else. It's kind of a common name

look at this:

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=bridget&word2=falcon

not fair, hahahaha

 

[TastelessRamen]

Alright screw this post. Im starting over.



3 reasons why you're Wrong.

1. Guilty Gear isn't smash.
2. Guilty Gear is health based.
3. Refer to #2

Ok?

GG. You think you can compare that stuff to smash on this forum?

''Show me ya moves!''

Yes, Guilty Gear isn't smash, but it IS better balanced. And I was merely using it as an example of how a game could have both superior balance than Smash Brothers and a more diverse character roster. These two points are more or less undeniable to anyone who has seen both games in action at the competitive level.

GG

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Yes, Guilty Gear isn't smash, but it IS better balanced. And I was merely using it as an example of how a game could have both superior balance than Smash Brothers and a more diverse character roster. These two points are more or less undeniable to anyone who has seen both games in action at the competitive level.

GG

No, you can't compare them at all.

In smash the more you get hit, the further you fly. Smash is it's own game in every right bearing no resemblence other then the ACT of fighting to any other fighter ever made.

So ok, guilty gear is more balanced in terms of tiers.. its not the same game.

As for the topic. If the shine changes, that's gay. I hope to god they dont change it.

I dont get this whole ''smash is imba'' attitude carried by so many people here because of tiers. Its just lame, the old argument used to be ''Tiers dun exist!'' and now its ''Omg tiers. Imba!''

It's just lame. Melee is a great game, stop spending so much time coming up with excuses and just GET BETTER at it.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Hey, guilty gear is gay. And smash owns it. Stop making these god**** balance comparisons.

Does Guilty gear have captain falcon, or the best fighting game system ever?

sorry just had to say that. Smash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever.

Uh...I don't agree with you.I'm a Guilty Gear fan as well.Even though I love smash even more,I still love Guilty Gear as well.I may not have Accent Core,but I can tell you that it's very in depth and fun.You can't base an analysis on the games engine to another though.

Ky player by the way,LJ loops FTW!!^^


But either way,this whole shine contraversy seems to be alittle out of hand.I'm going to add that I doubt that the effect of Fox's/Falco's reflector won't leave,why?

First of all it was an intentional application that was implemented in the game through out the smash bros. series.In melee it was enhanced because it was treated like a shield,and was actually capable of breaking.This also allowed you to jump out like you could do a shield.
This enhancement was made because the ability to cancel it from a jump landing was backwards.The only way to jump out of it is when a projectile doesn't come in contact with it,and that's completely fine,just like a shield.With the old reflector the move couldn't remain active in the air,but the change to the shine was very useful who likes to use the reflector often.

Secong of all,I believe that the shine will remain jump cancelable because of the reasons I stated in the above statement.Another problem with the shine was that people became very vulnerable upon using it in the original super smash bros. which would often opt your opponent for an open attack.

Third of all,I still believe that the shine won't be removed because of our trivial uses of the shine.Because to Sakurai and Nintendo,the reflector knockback was balanced becaused advanced playing mechanics were not taken into consideration,and they still aren't.From the perspective of the general gamer,the use of the shine would only be a small push in a direction that reduces the vulnerability of the character using it.But the ending lag wouldn't be enough to punish the opponent,just enough to get them out the way.That is how Nintendo views it as well.It's an easter egg of sorts.

I just wish that all of the people who are complaining about the shine look at it from the perspective of the general smash player,then look at it from there.And another thing,the next person to say that the shine is cheap because of waveshine combo's,shine spikes,multiple JC shines,and shine infinates...please,just get the hell out.All of those things are just used to look flashy,and there are way more useful substitutes:


Ledge-Hop Bair>Shine Spike

Full Jump out of shine>Multiple JC shine

Nair to shine>Drill shine infinate

Waveshine to U-smash or Grab>Multiple Waveshines.

Most of the people here complaining never probably even been to a tournament.So you people even know how to play with Fox essentially?I swear,sometimes people have their heads shoved so far up shined blind's arse it's not even funny.

All of those trivial uses for the shine suck.Just stick with what works.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Sorry about the guilty gear is gay comment that was me being a jerk.

But I still dont think you can compare health based fighters like street fighter or Guilty Gear to smash, just because of how unique smash is.

And I agree with Phoenix Fire. especially this

Ledge-Hop Bair>Shine Spike

Full Jump out of shine>Multiple JC shine

Nair to shine>Drill shine infinate

If you're *****ing about the shine, You're a scrub. No two ways around it.

 

[Dacvak]

Wow, what the hell did this thread turn into? I thought we were just talking about the Shine in Brawl, not Guilty Gear. =P

Either way, Dylan's right... Well, about a few things, at least.

Some people can say Smash is broken, and for all intents and purposes, it is... But only to a small extent. You guys are throwing that word around so easily... Calling a game broken originally meant that no matter what, if you did a certain action in said game, you would pretty much win.

Smash isn't broken. In fact, Melee is one of the most balanced games I've ever played in my life. Are there certain moves that are better than others? Absolutely, but without that, the game would be monotonous. You want to know what's broken in a video game? Snaking in Mario Kart DS is broken. The shotgun in Gears of War is broken. The Mountain Dew car in Rush 2 is broken. (Anyone who gets that reference gets a dollar.) Is Melee broken? Hell no, not compared to that.

If someone is better than me at Melee, then no matter what I do, I'm going to lose. Even if I shine all day. If I'm better than someone at Melee, I'm going to beat them. I have yet to see this rule broken. People who are better than others can typically whoop other people with almost every character. If Melee was broken, then everyone would be Fox. I certainly don't play with Fox as my main, but I can still Shine.

Do I think the Shine needs to be nerfed? A little, yes. But as it stands now, my roommate plays Melee and uses Fox as his main. All he does is shine (which sucks when I'm Luigi). But I still always beat him, despite anything being unbalanced.

The point is, if you're sitting there b*tching about the game being broken or unbalanced, you probably just suck a.s.s. Quit complaining and blaming your sh*tty skills on people using unbalanced characters. If you're really better than your opponent, you'll beat them. End of story.

~Dac

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

THANK YOU.

Tiers exist. Skill exists
Skill >> tiers
Equal skill = higher tier has better chance of winning.

yes, pichu and mewtwo and link suck, maybe they should be buffed.

Yes, fox falco marth peach sheik captain falcon samus and the ice climbers rule. No, they shouldnt be nerfed.

''Omg broken'' = cry of the n00b.

Broken, is good in smash. Just because a move is effective, does not mean you can necsarrilly hit with it.

Just be grateful its not ssb64 where if falcon got a fthrow on you and knew what he was doing you were pretty much dead.

The most damage you can do in smash, with ANY combo is 1 stock. Thats what keeps the balance of the game in check, plus you get that little invincibility thing going on so you get control for a bit.

Smash is great, stop johning.

 

[NES n00b]

"link suck"-Dylan

You, good sir, are not on my good list. JK

I like playing as Link and suprisingly, do well with him. I guess I just get how to use him better than other characters and people are not that use to fighting Link.

Anyways Shine should be close to the same or completly the same. I say just make Fox's and Falco's other stuff suck worse. Lol

Edit: Glad to see you back Eternal phoenix Fire. Flame n00bs and scrubs too much so you got banned.

 

[Dacvak]

I never thought Link to be low-tier; this is news to me.

But again, my main is Luigi, so what do I know about tiers? =P (And by the way, I'm a pretty **** good luigi. I just got second in a big 300 person competition. I was in the finals with best in PA, and I lost. Pretty badly. =P)

But actually, I love the tier system. I got awesome with Luigi (ironically just for his ending taunt, where he does The Worm twice), and now when I play with him, no one expects me to be good. It works as a continuous mind game, in my favor. If we didn't have tiers, that wouldn't be so.

If I see someone come up playing Bowser or DK, I just mentally don't prepare myself as much as if I was playing someone like Marth or Fox.


~Dac

Oh, and R.I.P. Young Link. I liked you so much more than the older one. =(

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I never thought Link to be low-tier; this is news to me.

But again, my main is Luigi, so what do I know about tiers? =P (And by the way, I'm a pretty **** good luigi. I just got second in a big 300 person competition. I was in the finals with best in PA, and I lost. Pretty badly. =P)

But actually, I love the tier system. I got awesome with Luigi (ironically just for his ending taunt, where he does The Worm twice), and now when I play with him, no one expects me to be good. It works as a continuous mind game, in my favor. If we didn't have tiers, that wouldn't be so.

If I see someone come up playing Bowser or DK, I just mentally don't prepare myself as much as if I was playing someone like Marth or Fox.


~Dac

Oh, and R.I.P. Young Link. I liked you so much more than the older one. =(

Yeah low tier rapeage is a good mindgame. Look a lot MORE people play high tiers. I believe a low tier requires more work to become good with.

NO it does not make you unique, NO it does not make you honorable. Thats the excuse of scrub low tier users who still get pwnd

Im glad to hear you play a killer luigi because luigi owns!! Link sucks. Sorry Im just bias, I hate link in smash. Im a rabid zelda fan but link sucks in fighting games. hes low tier in ssb64, melee, and in soul calibur for gamecube. hes ALWAYS low tier, he makes a bad fighter. Sheik chainthrow for the pwn *omg broken sheik should be nerfed and should have no attacks*

I play high tiers though, I just like fox/shiek. But I play mario and ganon as my secondaries along with captain falcon, so meh Im not a big tier whor.

I used to main link haha.

 

[Dacvak]

I've seen some D.A.M.N good Links in my day. I make a pretty decent Young Link, too.

And I mained Link in SC2. I thought he was freaking awesome. (And cheap! His grab move when you're backed up against an edge is just amazing!)

~Dac

 

[NES n00b]

Link is one place lower than Luigi which is the top of Mid Tier. Actually, both of these characters are pretty good and are undervalued. They beat the other low tiers like if they are top tier (not really but you get my point that they have a big advantage). I like playing characters that no one is prepared to play.

Mookierah today-"I won't play Falco because that would be gay" when I picked Link. After beating his Roy, he played Falco three times (I won all three times). Then, he switched to Marth and it was an even battle. Each of us would win one with one stock and stuff where before, he would beat my Link by three stock (or one time today with 4 stocks >_>). Since I have problems with Marth, I have definitely got better.

Wait a minute, how did explaining where Link was on the tier list get into my personal story lol. Just had too much fun today.

Also >3 Mookie

I thought Link was high tier in Soul Caliber. He was the only one with a grab to throw off the edge and he had projectiles even if they are situational.

 

[Dacvak]

Where can I see the tier list?

~Dac

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Smash boards is really acting up.

 

[NES n00b]

Smash boards is really acting up.

What do you mean? That smash boards is having a screwy server? Because if so yes. If you mean that there are alot of scrubs and n00bs in the Brawl boards (and some other portions of the site but to a lesser degree), than I agree.

Whatever, still missed your colorful posts.

 

[Dacvak]

Still, where can I get a tier list for Melee?

~Dac

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Link is one place lower than Luigi which is the top of Mid Tier.

Completly, and totally wrong.

Link is one spot above luigi, and they're both top of the LOW tier. They both suck wayyy too much to be middle tier. let alone top of middle, thats reserved for Captain Falcon, Ic's and Samus.

I thought Link was high tier in Soul Caliber. He was the only one with a grab to throw off the edge and he had projectiles even if they are situational.

Nope. He's bottom tier. gets ***** in tournaments big, and just overall is a ****ty character. Ive played a bit of competitive SC2 so id know.

Top tier

Fox
Falco

High tier
Sheik
Marth
Peach

Middle tier
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Samus
Dr. Mario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ganondorf

Low tier
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu

Bottom tier
Yoshi
Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

Had to get it off the smash wiki, forgot where it was on the forums.