How should "The SHINE" be in brawl?

[Vulpine51]

I got an idea! Mabe if we nerfed the shine, gave Marth a foam noodle, ditched Samus's bombs, scrapped Peache's turnips/spin/float-canceling, disabled all forms of chain-grabbing then everyone could enjoy the game. There needs to be no form of advantage for each character what-so-ever. You wouldnt have to worry about blaming your defeat on the character your opponent used because everyone would have the same generic moveset. I mean, who wants an inresting moveset anyways? Moves like the shine only encourage people to learn tricky combos that add depth to the game. Certanly something that should not be in a game, depth that is.

And I mean there's no avoiding the shine. Its like it zeros' in on you and theres nothing you can do to avoid it. Then if you're a character like Roy who hits the ground after the shine they can hit you with "Thunder's Combo." A combo thats totally noobish and unfair. I mean, they spent hours trying to perfect that move. Why should they be able to beat you? Its seriously gay.

I love satire.

On the other hand, we could focus on the advantages of the characters we play as and not the ones of our opponents. Unless you'd rather just deny that the person you lost to was merely better than you and that it was because of "X" character's "X" move. There will never be a game without some "broken" move. Somebody will take whatever moves that come in Brawl and find a way to "break" it. Someone will also find ways around that "broken" move.

The shine is not so big and bad. Its just one of the key moves that makes Fox who he is. Every character has certain advantages that can/will be exploited and its up to you to exploit the hell out of them. If you want to win that is. If not then why the heck are you playing in tournys?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I got an idea! Mabe if we nerfed the shine, gave Marth a foam noodle, ditched Samus's bombs, scrapped Peache's turnips/spin/float-canceling, disabled all forms of chain-grabbing then everyone could enjoy the game. There needs to be no form of advantage for each character what-so-ever. You wouldnt have to worry about blaming your defeat on the character your opponent used because everyone would have the same generic moveset. I mean, who wants an inresting moveset anyways? Moves like the shine only encourage people to learn tricky combos that add depth to the game. Certanly something that should not be in a game, depth that is.

And I mean there's no avoiding the shine. Its like it zeros' in on you and theres nothing you can do to avoid it. Then if you're a character like Roy who hits the ground after the shine they can hit you with "Thunder's Combo." A combo thats totally noobish and unfair. I mean, they spent hours trying to perfect that move. Why should they be able to beat you? Its seriously gay.

I love satire.

On the other hand, we could focus on the advantages of the characters we play as and not the ones of our opponents. Unless you'd rather just deny that the person you lost to was merely better than you and that it was because of "X" character's "X" move. There will never be a game without some "broken" move. Somebody will take whatever moves that come in Brawl and find a way to "break" it. Someone will also find ways around that "broken" move.

The shine is not so big and bad. Its just one of the key moves that makes Fox who he is. Every character has certain advantages that can/will be exploited and its up to you to exploit the hell out of them. If you want to win that is. If not then why the heck are you playing in tournys?

Best post in this topic......period.

 

[chu12ch]

Things defined as broken, are labeled so for a reason... its not like you can get rid of all the broken moves (like you said (unless they do periodic balance changes)), but you can nerf down the ones that are known about... i find it a pretty gay move, but it is awesome in terms of utility. I dont like the fact that the IC infinite is in the game, but if i need to use it, i will... Like i said, even if you do nerf the shine to a slower juggler, gave marth a q-tip, and made zelda's down+b do something else, different broken techniques will come to be known eventually...

 

[Vulpine51]

to Phoenix: *bows modestly*

chu12ch, do you really think that helps the game overall? I would be much more content if each character had their own advantages than having balanced (which would also be banal) movesets.

Moves like the shine are NOT broken. There's more than one way to deal with the shine. Use your brain. In fact, use the shine against them. The people I play with take advantage of me when I get all shine happy on them. Remember that you are playing with the actual human next to you and not the person on the screen. If you can pick out one's techniques well you wont have a problem beating them.

 

[chu12ch]

How is the shine not broken? it leads right into a grab/usmash/more shines, it sends you at a negative angle, stuns you, comes out as fast as you press it, and cancels as fast as you want it to... Personally i feel that anything that can bring you from 0 to death (against a decent opponent) is broken and needs to be fixed...

 

[Vulpine51]

You act like doing all of those things are easy. Like anyone who picks up fox can instanly do that crap. The shine isnt an "I win" button or even an "easy" button. There are other moves and techniqes that need to be learned to take advantage of the shine. If the shine is as broken as most people make it out to be, then why isnt everyone playing as Fox or Falco? How come a random person cant pick up Fox and expect to come out on top over seasoned players? Why is Fox one of the hardest characters to master? Why isnt every tourny won by a Fox or Falco? Why do I see 2x as many Marth players as Fox?

The shine is not the bane of every character. Its well known that it works great on some characters, while it failis on others. A simple way to combat a Fox player is to use a variety of characters, but hey theres more than one way to be successful.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

How is the shine not broken? it leads right into a grab/usmash/more shines, it sends you at a negative angle, stuns you, comes out as fast as you press it, and cancels as fast as you want it to... Personally i feel that anything that can bring you from 0 to death (against a decent opponent) is broken and needs to be fixed...

Your lack of knowledge exceeds you in your lack of skill obviously....

If you knew:


1. Infinates are the worse things you could do in a tounament,because they are predictable,and can be DI'd out of.

2.It is very hard to master shine combo's.The people who play with them merely make it look like a cake walk.

3.Infinates with Fox only work on people who suck.

4.The shine isn't impossible to defeat,i have seen Peach's beat Fox's on several occasions,even Doc/Mario.

 

[chu12ch]

Yeah it takes skill to learn and pull off... but it is still broken regardless of how much effort you put into it... im not saying using fox is insta-win, im saying that fox is already awesome if you dont even use the shine, but that one move takes him into a whole new level of greatness... being able nullify all shieldgrabbing makes his already insane shffl capabilities too good... (what really gets me mad is) i've never even said its an easy thing to do and that anybody can do it (which both of you accuse me of thinking), im just saying it makes fox too good vs more than half the cast...

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yeah it takes skill to learn and pull off... but it is still broken regardless of how much effort you put into it... im not saying using fox is insta-win, im saying that fox is already awesome if you dont even use the shine, but that one move takes him into a whole new level of greatness... being able nullify all shieldgrabbing makes his already insane shffl capabilities too good... (what really gets me mad is) i've never even said its an easy thing to do and that anybody can do it (which both of you accuse me of thinking), im just saying it makes fox too good vs more than half the cast...

But you should think about this...Don't nerf Fox,make the other characters better to the point that the playing ground would be better suited for both players rather than an unbalanced fight.I would rather see two really good characters fight each other than two lame characters fight..

It makes more visually pleasing that way.

 

[Metà]

But you should think about this...Don't nerf Fox,make the other characters better to the point that the playing ground would be better suited for both players rather than an unbalanced fight.I would rather see two really good characters fight each other than two lame characters fight..

It makes more visually pleasing that way.

I have been saying that for such a long time. People are so obsessed with nerfing or simply getting rid of 'flaws' in the game, that they forget that maybe some other things in the game could be better adapted to deal with these 'flaws'. Instead of wimpifying a few characters, why not make all the other characters better? Leave in the Shine, leave in Marth's crazy disjointed hitboxes, leave in Falco's evil spike and blasters--just give all the other characters something equally awesome. Screw nerfing, let's make everyone awesome! ^ ^

 

[Devastlian]

I have been saying that for such a long time. People are so obsessed with nerfing or simply getting rid of 'flaws' in the game, that they forget that maybe some other things in the game could be better adapted to deal with these 'flaws'. Instead of wimpifying a few characters, why not make all the other characters better? Leave in the Shine, leave in Marth's crazy disjointed hitboxes, leave in Falco's evil spike and blasters--just give all the other characters something equally awesome. Screw nerfing, let's make everyone awesome! ^ ^

But apparently if every character is on the same level (or at least close enough that skill fills in the blanks) then the game would be lame...somehow. I don't know how that makes sense but I agree with you and Eternal phoenix Fire.

 

[Shine-Fu]

The shine should stay the same, every other character should be brought up to foxes level. Thats where games are fun, fox v shiek, ect. top tier guys. just make em all top tier.

Honestly, who wants to plahy all mediocre charaters? i know i dont.

 

[GreenMamba]

Seeing what happened to Kirby, Pikachu, and Ness in Melee, I'd be concerned about Fox if I were you.

 

[chu12ch]

(i guess i agree with the idea of just making everybody better, but) the game was created with some balance in mind... but things were found out and characters started to stray away from the group due to the broken-ness of some of their characteristics or moves...

(i am a bit afraid of what they're doing to fox, he was high tier in 64, and top in melee... if the trends continue he's either gonna be godly or sad... very sad...)

 

[LowRoad75]

Just my 2 cents but I think the shine is fine the way it is. The shine isn't broken it does what it was designed to do, reflect projectiles, and it does it well. The fact that people have developed other uses for the move doesn't mean its broken.

Oh and yes the shine is hard to master, thats been established. It takes super fast fingers, near perfect timing, and loads of practice to do and utilize in a fight. Certainly people can do it for awhile, but sooner or later they are gonna screw up a bit even the best foxes. Take the time to punish them for it.

 

[Red Exodus]

What if the make they shine bigger, with more knockback lol. Fox would be in a super god tier

 

[greenblob]

Hm...how about just making it so that DI affects it a lot more?

 

[BurningCrusader777]

As Eternal has been saying for the past 4 pages, shine is strong, we can't deny that, but because of the practice required to use it, Fox can't just be picked up by some guy and win. And yeah, we don't need to nerf shine; heck, we don't need to nerf anything. Just buff most of the other characters, so that the Tier List is even MORE closely placed.

Shining is very useful, but as it was said earlier, it needs timing and practice. Besides that, it isn't the only thing Fox has. In fact, IMHO, it only seems broken. Fox's moveset and playstyle are the powers behind that shine. Sure, he could have shine, but if he had nothing to use it with, it would be much less used...

 

[MetaKnight0]

So vulpine seems to suggest the 'give everyone something broken as hell so it ends up being balanced' strategy to balance the characters.

Hey let's look at Roy's advantages! He's strong at close range. Why not give him a storable Flare Blade so he has a way to kill any opponent at 30%? Let's give Bowser a 3 hit indiscriminate super armour because he's heavy and strong! Let's give everyone something so **** broken to be exploited at tourney levels because god forbid if we do a nerf!

Face it, Fox's shine destroys half the cast. You can use your brain all you like, but if you have to use all your thinking to be able to beat something that your opponent throws at whenever, there's something wrong. Fox tosses out random shine and wavedashes forward without thinking, but he hit you because you missed the on the frame timing needed to grab him out of that. He then grabs you throws you up and kills you all without even planning or preparing for anything? Why? Because shine covers his *** and hands him his opponent's *** on a plate.

 

[chu12ch]

I would be fine with the shine in brawl if they just decrease the stun time...

 

[1048576]

It works both ways, though. If you mess up, you will eat about 40 damage from shine based combos (unless you mess up off the stage, but then you die against most characters). If the Fox messes up, he will eat, I dunno, death from just about every high tier character in the game. He's kinda easy to combo. And light. Trust me, it's much easier for the Fox to mess up. He's a very technically demanding character to play.

Anyway, I think that leaving the frame properties the same, but making it's hitbox only connect in front of him instead of surrounding him on all sides is the best way to balance the shine. Thoughts?

 

[chu12ch]

Anyway, I think that leaving the frame properties the same, but making it's hitbox only connect in front of him instead of surrounding him on all sides is the best way to balance the shine. Thoughts?

That's probably the most likely thing to happen...

 

[shadenexus18]

I can't think of a purpose of the Shine other than being a trophy.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

So vulpine seems to suggest the 'give everyone something broken as hell so it ends up being balanced' strategy to balance the characters.

Hey let's look at Roy's advantages! He's strong at close range. Why not give him a storable Flare Blade so he has a way to kill any opponent at 30%? Let's give Bowser a 3 hit indiscriminate super armour because he's heavy and strong! Let's give everyone something so **** broken to be exploited at tourney levels because god forbid if we do a nerf!

Face it, Fox's shine destroys half the cast. You can use your brain all you like, but if you have to use all your thinking to be able to beat something that your opponent throws at whenever, there's something wrong. Fox tosses out random shine and wavedashes forward without thinking, but he hit you because you missed the on the frame timing needed to grab him out of that. He then grabs you throws you up and kills you all without even planning or preparing for anything? Why? Because shine covers his *** and hands him his opponent's *** on a plate.

My Exaggeration detector just yielded an emense explosion...

The shine isn't nearly as broken as the aboved mentioned things.A shine pushes you over,a flare blade kills you be default,so which one is worse?

When i said"give both players an advantage",i didn't mean"completly destroy them".

You can make a character better without breaking them sir..

 

[MetaKnight0]

Haha right now the flare blade is bad and only really good in edge-guarding as well as maybe some gimmicks.

Shine pretty much gives Fox a free rushdown WHENEVER he wants! The only characters that can really do something about it are the best characters. Against anyone that's like Captain Falcon and lower they have a REALLY hard time beating Fox's shine.

It really seems like you don't play Fox at all because if you did you would know that waveshining after is all muscle memory. On a hit you get an easy up smash or grab or you can start tech-chasing! On a miss it's very difficult and high risk to punish so Fox mostly doesn't worry if he gets a shield. If they DD, well, Fox DDes better than anyone else except Falcon and arguably Marth. He doesn't need shine then, but when he goes for an opening shine covers him.

And if you don't think that's bad enough to warrant giving Roy a stored Flare Blade then tell me what Roy should get so he's Fox's equal.

I don't understand why people are bringing up how technical Fox is. So many Foxes have reached beyond that point anyways, they can do the hard stuff that makes Fox good. Nearly every region in the world has Fox and Falco players at the very best levels. There's a trend and you can see that shine is a very very powerful tool when you look at these players play.

It's easy what I'm suggesting! Give the bottom tiers some buffs in their weakest spots, nerf the top tier character's in areas that are unfair to the rest of the cast, and you have a much more balanced game (given the assumption that the core of each character isn't changed...). Face it SSBM isn't even close to being a balanced game

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Haha right now the flare blade is bad and only really good in edge-guarding as well as maybe some gimmicks.

having it stored is broken,not the attack itself...

Shine pretty much gives Fox a free rushdown WHENEVER he wants! The only characters that can really do something about it are the best characters. Against anyone that's like Captain Falcon and lower they have a REALLY hard time beating Fox's shine.

Your right,the shine is impossible to dodge,it Zeros in and gives an instantanious kill.Hey,why even come in close contact with the opponent when i can just shine you whenever i want,without even having to chain with attacks,i'll just drop to the bottom of Hyrule and just keep shining.After all,i can attack anytime i want,i don't even need to be in close proximity,i have t3h uber 1337 shine,duh...

It really seems like you don't play Fox at all because if you did you would know that waveshining after is all muscle memory. On a hit you get an easy up smash or grab or you can start tech-chasing! On a miss it's very difficult and high risk to punish so Fox mostly doesn't worry if he gets a shield. If they DD, well, Fox DDes better than anyone else except Falcon and arguably Marth. He doesn't need shine then, but when he goes for an opening shine covers him.

Actually i do play Fox.If it's so easy,them how come the Majority of current Fox players have a hard time doing it and switch to Falco?

Here are some things:

1.You an DI away from the shine.

2.You can DI the Uair as well one way on the initial hit,then smash DI the other direction on the last hit.

U-throw>U-smash doesn't work that well on everyone,mostly Fast Fallers,and it only works at Low-Mid percentages.

Why don't you star thinking insted of Making Fox seem like god? He is only as good as the players skill can take him..

And if you don't think that's bad enough to warrant giving Roy a stored Flare Blade then tell me what Roy should get so he's Fox's equal.

Why not just give him a better aerial game,tilts,range,and a stronger(but not stored)flare blade?

I don't understand why people are bringing up how technical Fox is. So many Foxes have reached beyond that point anyways, they can do the hard stuff that makes Fox good. Nearly every region in the world has Fox and Falco players at the very best levels. There's a trend and you can see that shine is a very very powerful tool when you look at these players play.

When you look at THE PLAYERS!!!!!! *emphasis*

It's easy what I'm suggesting! Give the bottom tiers some buffs in their weakest spots, nerf the top tier character's in areas that are unfair to the rest of the cast, and you have a much more balanced game (given the assumption that the core of each character isn't changed...). Face it SSBM isn't even close to being a balanced game

Yeah,that's great,we can play the game with"average" and"boring"characters,insted of having characters that all have great abilities and complex leaning curves,just perfect...

 

[MetaKnight0]

Long post and **** coming up.

Flare Blade can be Smash CC'd, Smash DI'd, Sheild-grab, Air-Dodged, spotdodged, whatever. How broke can it be really? And no I really don't give a crap about this particular thread of my argument, I just hate the idea of buffing everyone up so that they're equal with the top 5.

As for the case, using shine randomly isn't getting you anywhere. It's really kind of funny, you're probably so used to Fox's shine that you don't see how broke the thing really is. It kills anything in a shield. It can kill opponents at 0%. It can create an opportunity to do a 40% or more follow up. It can interrupt anything (either through clanking or through sheer speed). It can do infinite combos. It can break any momentum the opponent had. It can let Fox mindlessly toss Neutral Airs on the opponent and shine after if he misses. It's a LOW-RISK/HIGH REWARD MOVE!

I don't think anyone should care about the weak players where you could probably win with Pichu spamming Neutral Air. The majority of Fox and Falco players aren't good enough to get past the first pool of any reputable tournament. Do we take their skill into account when considering a move's total and showcased potential? For that matter, is Ice Climbers high on the tier list cuz the majority of Ice Climber players in the world don't know what desyncing is? And for shine DI, you have 2, maybe 3 frames to smash DI away or down. The other isn't even a way to 'beat' shine, it's to 'beat' the follow-up. And as for thinking... theory fighting is good and all but when you go in a fight you aren't dealing with comfortable theories on text anymore.

Improve Roy with better aerial game,tilts,range,and a stronger(but not stored)flare blade? Where do we draw the line? Hell who knows what improvements will make Roy broken or not that much better? What if he becomes better than Fox? Next installment improve Fox? What if he's worse? Improve him even more? What you're suggesting is to just let the lowest characters get buffed and the top stay the same? That's like throwing a skydiver out the window without a parachute and hope he lands on the target alive. You're totally ignoring the evolution of a tournament fighter. Even simple changes to a character can cause something totally unforeseen to a character.

I talk about the players at the top because they are the proof to the metagame. They show what is good, what is bad, what works, and what doesn't. I quote them because they are the best showcase of what a character is capable of. Fox is capable of absolutely ridiculous abare (damage potential) on a large variety of the cast. Shine is a large portion of this damage potential.

And the last thing you posted is just insulting to anyone who mains low tiers. They aren't boring. They're only average because the top tiers **** on them. If you can nerf the broken aspects of the top tiers and give a buff to the worst characters suddenly the median is different, more accurate, and more balanced. It seems that you would rather have SSBM's equivilent of Storm/Sentinel/Magneto/Cable own everyone else in the game then have a balanced game with several characters because you think balanced games can't be fun or exciting.

Sidenote: It sounds like you're all confident in your argument because you've used bad spelling and sarcasm in a deliberate attempt to troll me or make me look like the noob... How about you cut the smart-*** sarcasm and say **** in my face instead of covering it up? If you think I'm a ******* say it up front. Show some respectable behaviour instead of resorting to low-level trolling posts. Maybe you've impressed your forum buddies but if that's the goal of your posts then just stop this charade now.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Long post and **** coming up.

Flare Blade can be Smash CC'd, Smash DI'd, Sheild-grab, Air-Dodged, spotdodged, whatever. How broke can it be really? And no I really don't give a crap about this particular thread of my argument, I just hate the idea of buffing everyone up so that they're equal with the top 5.

As for the case, using shine randomly isn't getting you anywhere. It's really kind of funny, you're probably so used to Fox's shine that you don't see how broke the thing really is. It kills anything in a shield. It can kill opponents at 0%. It can create an opportunity to do a 40% or more follow up. It can interrupt anything (either through clanking or through sheer speed). It can do infinite combos. It can break any momentum the opponent had. It can let Fox mindlessly toss Neutral Airs on the opponent and shine after if he misses. It's a LOW-RISK/HIGH REWARD MOVE!

I don't think anyone should care about the weak players where you could probably win with Pichu spamming Neutral Air. The majority of Fox and Falco players aren't good enough to get past the first pool of any reputable tournament. Do we take their skill into account when considering a move's total and showcased potential? For that matter, is Ice Climbers high on the tier list cuz the majority of Ice Climber players in the world don't know what desyncing is? And for shine DI, you have 2, maybe 3 frames to smash DI away or down. The other isn't even a way to 'beat' shine, it's to 'beat' the follow-up. And as for thinking... theory fighting is good and all but when you go in a fight you aren't dealing with comfortable theories on text anymore.

Improve Roy with better aerial game,tilts,range,and a stronger(but not stored)flare blade? Where do we draw the line? Hell who knows what improvements will make Roy broken or not that much better? What if he becomes better than Fox? Next installment improve Fox? What if he's worse? Improve him even more? What you're suggesting is to just let the lowest characters get buffed and the top stay the same? That's like throwing a skydiver out the window without a parachute and hope he lands on the target alive. You're totally ignoring the evolution of a tournament fighter. Even simple changes to a character can cause something totally unforeseen to a character.

I talk about the players at the top because they are the proof to the metagame. They show what is good, what is bad, what works, and what doesn't. I quote them because they are the best showcase of what a character is capable of. Fox is capable of absolutely ridiculous abare (damage potential) on a large variety of the cast. Shine is a large portion of this damage potential.

And the last thing you posted is just insulting to anyone who mains low tiers. They aren't boring. They're only average because the top tiers **** on them. If you can nerf the broken aspects of the top tiers and give a buff to the worst characters suddenly the median is different, more accurate, and more balanced. It seems that you would rather have SSBM's equivilent of Storm/Sentinel/Magneto/Cable own everyone else in the game then have a balanced game with several characters because you think balanced games can't be fun or exciting.

Sidenote: It sounds like you're all confident in your argument because you've used bad spelling and sarcasm in a deliberate attempt to troll me or make me look like the noob... How about you cut the smart-*** sarcasm and say **** in my face instead of covering it up? If you think I'm a ******* say it up front. Show some respectable behaviour instead of resorting to low-level trolling posts. Maybe you've impressed your forum buddies but if that's the goal of your posts then just stop this charade now.

And to reply to that...I'm not trying to impress anyone,nor am i showing off,i'm simply trying to proove that it is unecessary to make a character worse,meerly to balance the game.

I for one know that the shine can't completly destroy shields.I was playing my friend for several hours,and ever time it canceled aerials and followed up with shine,i got shield grabed,even when i did multiple JC shines,he simply timed the grab and grabed me right after the shine...

Another thing...dude,you need to chill out.I made no remarks to you personally,and i apologize if i offended you some how..

I just believe if that everyone had something good,it would make the game more...well...deep.

 

[Devastlian]

Yeah,that's great,we can play the game with"average" and"boring"characters,insted of having characters that all have great abilities and complex leaning curves,just perfect...

But if no characters pull ahead from le peloton then all the characters will be boring and average. There will be no upper tier for the non-conformists to hate and no lower tier characters for the elitists to scoff at. There'd be no claims that one plays a top tier character "just 'cause they're their favourite". This community would suffer terribly and this forum would lose it's purpose altogether.

Spoiler

[/sarcasm]

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

But if no characters pull ahead from le peloton then all the characters will be boring and average. There will be no upper tier for the non-conformists to hate and no lower tier characters for the elitists to scoff at. There'd be no claims that one plays a top tier character "just 'cause they're their favourite". This community would suffer terribly and this forum would lose it's purpose altogether.

Spoiler

[/sarcasm]

XD

Hehehehe....

 

[Samochan]

And to reply to that...I'm not trying to impress anyone,nor am i showing off,i'm simply trying to proove that it is unecessary to make a character worse,meerly to balance the game.

I for one know that the shine can't completly destroy shields.I was playing my friend for several hours,and ever time it canceled aerials and followed up with shine,i got shield grabed,even when i did multiple JC shines,he simply timed the grab and grabed me right after the shine...

XD I laughed at that. Really. Shine does destroy shields and if you actually got shieldgrabbed when you shffled an aerial and followed with a JC'ed shine, then you're not the person to say what is broken and what is not. You're also using yourself and your friends as an example to prove your point while it means nothing, since you nor your friends are obviously not the best players in the world. If you can't JC shine multiple times and break theirs shields, just don't do that and go for the riskless approach like waveshine, jc that shine into your own grab or just jump out of it. You can also waveshine to their backside, turn around in that shine and jc that into a grab before they can do anything. Because it's that broken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovxWM9ou-VU

Here is some shield destroying JC shines done by Prosmasher Tim. The guy in shield can neither roll cause it stuns, sidestep those, jump or grab. And neither could anyone else with faster grab either, they take 7 frames at least to come out and perfect JC shine takes 3 frames, so there is even plenty of room for error. It also stuns so a lot more frames to make JC shines.

 

[Papapaint]

Why are people bothering to argue with Eternal Phoenix Fire? He's just a troll. He won't be deciding how the shine works in the next game, and it won't really destroy the smash community if he's not happy.

A majority of players think the shine could do with a bit of weakening. Not totally weakened, but enough to stop it from being absurd. Likewise, ICs could do with losing the Wobbles combo.

The questions is not whether or not it can be prevented or it's difficult to do. I think it's an example of how broken it is by the number of players who practicepracticepractice to get it down. I play falco, my friend plays fox. There is no denying how intregal the shine is to our game. I also play luigi and marth. Falco is by far the least interesting, but the most challenging. A big part of that is the shine.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

XD I laughed at that. Really. Shine does destroy shields and if you actually got shieldgrabbed when you shffled an aerial and followed with a JC'ed shine, then you're not the person to say what is broken and what is not. You're also using yourself and your friends as an example to prove your point while it means nothing, since you nor your friends are obviously not the best players in the world. If you can't JC shine multiple times and break theirs shields, just don't do that and go for the riskless approach like waveshine, jc that shine into your own grab or just jump out of it. You can also waveshine to their backside, turn around in that shine and jc that into a grab before they can do anything. Because it's that broken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovxWM9ou-VU

Here is some shield destroying JC shines done by Prosmasher Tim. The guy in shield can neither roll cause it stuns, sidestep those, jump or grab. And neither could anyone else with faster grab either, they take 7 frames at least to come out and perfect JC shine takes 3 frames, so there is even plenty of room for error. It also stuns so a lot more frames to make JC shines.

Here is my question? How many of us can actually do that in combat? You think that i can just execute multiple shines like that in combat like that?It is a very difficult and situational technique,and the majority of Fox players wouldn't even try to execute that many JC shines.

You can't compare to the best players in the world,because not every player in on that skill level.Comparing me to him is simply stating that i am on that skill level(which i am not),i'm meerly an intermediate level Fox player,and if the JC shine was as easy as it looks,wouldn't every proffesional player execute multiple JC shines and destroy shields..

As you laughed at my post,yours just made me laugh...

Why are people bothering to argue with Eternal Phoenix Fire? He's just a troll. He won't be deciding how the shine works in the next game, and it won't really destroy the smash community if he's not happy.

A majority of players think the shine could do with a bit of weakening. Not totally weakened, but enough to stop it from being absurd. Likewise, ICs could do with losing the Wobbles combo.

The questions is not whether or not it can be prevented or it's difficult to do. I think it's an example of how broken it is by the number of players who practicepracticepractice to get it down. I play falco, my friend plays fox. There is no denying how intregal the shine is to our game. I also play luigi and marth. Falco is by far the least interesting, but the most challenging. A big part of that is the shine.

I'm sorry,i didn't know being on topic qualified me as being a troll,and i also didn't know why you accuse me of doing so? Or are you just being an idiot...

I'm simply stating a fact that the shine is simply being exaggerated in it's terms of power.Doesn't anyone relize that the only way to use the shine effectivly is to be good with Fox?

Sure,it is boken,but that doesn't mean that it shoud be instantly nerfed,because as you said,what i said won't change,nor anyone else.

It would be diffirent if it were a simple character to use,but Fox isn't.He takes alot of time to master his techniques...Everyone assumes that if you play Fox you can instantly do:

-Waveshines
-Multile JC shines
-Drill shines
-Infinates
-Reverse Waveshine infinates
-Shine spikes

No,you cannot do that...If that were possible,Fox would have an insant win button.

I'm sick of people saying that all of the good characters should be nerfed simply to have the other characters have a better chance.But doesn't anyone try to think that there is rom for improvement? Or is it just impossible? Because X character isn't good against X character,don't nerf the better one,improve the other.

Fox isn't a god in the hands of an average player,he is a god in the hands of a proffesional,and only few are proffesional...

 

[TastelessRamen]

It is totally inconsequential how good YOU are, Pheonix, or how good the average player is. This has nothing to do with the overall balance of the game or the move.

I have played with some of the top players on the west coast. I am not nearly on their level, but just from playing and watching them it is easy to tell that Foxs' shine is broken.

With Mario, I cannot move, and it might be true that my skill level isn't high enough to compete, but I am pretty good at the game, and familiar with almost every advanced technique and I CANNOT MOVE.

There should be no level of skill attainable with any character that allows you to completely prevent another character from moving at all. I'm sorry, it is BROKEN.

Sure, you could make marios cape come out in one frame as well but all that will do is further imbalance the game.

There is no way Mario can render Fox completely immobile, and guess what... there shouldn't be.

It is ridiculous to suggest that every character should have some kind of godly unfair move. It is equally ridiculous to suggest that the game would somehow be less fun because the characters are equal power levels.

Isn't the interplay between equally powerful but unique characters infinitely more interesting than watching some pre-rehearsed combo by a top tier which completely mitigates that the lower tier character has?

What if they just made it so every character had a unique moveset and was on an even field with eachother.

There's two ways that can be done, every character besides the top tier can be buffed heavily. But these buffs would likely have hundreds of unforseen consequences which further upset the balance of the game, and might not even be as effective as was intended.

The alternative is to simply downpower the top tier slightly and buff the bottom tier slightly, since the framework used for modification is already in place, slight modifications would likely have few unforseen effects on gameplay.

I'm sorry that you aren't fast enough to do an effective shinedash, but when done properly it is wholly overpowering and unfair.

 

[TastelessRamen]

It would be diffirent if it were a simple character to use,but Fox isn't.He takes alot of time to master his techniques...Everyone assumes that if you play Fox you can instantly do:

-Waveshines
-Multile JC shines
-Drill shines
-Infinates
-Reverse Waveshine infinates
-Shine spikes

No,you cannot do that...If that were possible,Fox would have an insant win button.

This little passage is very indicitive of the inherent flaws in your argument. You admit it yourself, if foxs' techniques are executed perfectly he "has an instant win button." There should be no level of technical skill which is attainable with any character which affords you that kind of power.

It doesn't matter how hard it is to do, the bottom line is that it is in the game, and even if your opponent is also playing perfectly he has no chance, unless he's using Fox too.



Theoretically this level of skill is indeed attainable with fox and that is, undeniably, a problem.

p.s sorry for double post.

 

[kithkin]

i think the shine is fine, like yes i play falco (although i am a complete noob skills wise (like actually doing the waveshines and all that crap) but i know that the shine should stay as it is, maybe it could go a little worse, but not much, maybe just a slight bit more lag or something, rather than unable to cancel, cause if you couldnt cancel, it would be no way to link a combo.

but it could get much much better (a few of you said it couldnt) but if a single tap of r canceled it like as sheilding was mentioned, that could be godly.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

It is totally inconsequential how good YOU are, Pheonix, or how good the average player is. This has nothing to do with the overall balance of the game or the move.

I have played with some of the top players on the west coast. I am not nearly on their level, but just from playing and watching them it is easy to tell that Foxs' shine is broken.

With Mario, I cannot move, and it might be true that my skill level isn't high enough to compete, but I am pretty good at the game, and familiar with almost every advanced technique and I CANNOT MOVE.

There should be no level of skill attainable with any character that allows you to completely prevent another character from moving at all. I'm sorry, it is BROKEN.

Sure, you could make marios cape come out in one frame as well but all that will do is further imbalance the game.

There is no way Mario can render Fox completely immobile, and guess what... there shouldn't be.

It is ridiculous to suggest that every character should have some kind of godly unfair move. It is equally ridiculous to suggest that the game would somehow be less fun because the characters are equal power levels.

Isn't the interplay between equally powerful but unique characters infinitely more interesting than watching some pre-rehearsed combo by a top tier which completely mitigates that the lower tier character has?

What if they just made it so every character had a unique moveset and was on an even field with eachother.

There's two ways that can be done, every character besides the top tier can be buffed heavily. But these buffs would likely have hundreds of unforseen consequences which further upset the balance of the game, and might not even be as effective as was intended.

The alternative is to simply downpower the top tier slightly and buff the bottom tier slightly, since the framework used for modification is already in place, slight modifications would likely have few unforseen effects on gameplay.

I'm sorry that you aren't fast enough to do an effective shinedash, but when done properly it is wholly overpowering and unfair.

Your statement is true enough..The shine can be balanced in numerous ways,but i really don't know if the chances of that happening are high or minimal.

When Nintendo developed Super Smash Bros. Melee,the game was created for general use of the public.It was one of the most nonsensical fighting games on the market,ad it was intended to be that way.

Even though we do take part in Super Smash Bros. tournament wise,it makes me wonder if that they ae building the game reflecting the general public or the tournament community.Melee..obviously,was created for the general public,being unawareof the small programing the could to an unforseen demise for the tournament community for smash bros.

I actually find it somewhat likely that Masahiro Sakurai is developing this towards both the tournament community and the gereral public.He claims that he is trying to balance things out in smash bros. and on a side note,make improvements on certain parts of the game engine(I.E. Aerial Combat).

But i fear that this may make things further unbalanced things as we know that the game was intended to be created wit balance.We really aren't aware of what aspect of balance he is talking about.But theoreticaly,if the game is balanced through improvement,then the game shal become as broken as previously stated.

The game can be balanced to an extent,but the game shal never be truely balanced...atleast in theory.

Also,all of the things listed,i can actually do,i just can't do 10 JC shines so quickly. >_<

This little passage is very indicitive of the inherent flaws in your argument. You admit it yourself, if foxs' techniques are executed perfectly he "has an instant win button." There should be no level of technical skill which is attainable with any character which affords you that kind of power.

It doesn't matter how hard it is to do, the bottom line is that it is in the game, and even if your opponent is also playing perfectly he has no chance, unless he's using Fox too.



Theoretically this level of skill is indeed attainable with fox and that is, undeniably, a problem.

p.s sorry for double post.

True...

But i was trying to say that not all Fox's can do that in an instant,but with practice,it is possible.

 

[Vulpine51]

What ruckus over a tiny little hex.

They better be careful with it. Id rather they make Fox a completely new moveset then remake him with a crappy shine. The shine is the key that unlocks all of his ability. Without it you cant use Fox to his potential. I do believe that they built him with this in mind as most of his moves revolve around it.

So if they do anything to fox they might as well rebuild him completely. Make him blindingly fast so he still has something to work whith. Although it would be a heavy heart that I would give it away.

 

[TastelessRamen]

Well, I tried playing with Fox tonight, and I understand the concern here. The shine is pretty fun to use and a big part of Fox. It's still a bit too powerful though, so there has to be some solution.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Well, I tried playing with Fox tonight, and I understand the concern here. The shine is pretty fun to use and a big part of Fox. It's still a bit too powerful though, so there has to be some solution.

Yeah,it feels great.But could there be a solution?

I wouldn't care if they changed his ground attacks,but i hope they keep his aerial attacks(except for his Forward Aerial).Those are the key elements that made the shine powerful.