How should "The SHINE" be in brawl?

[Thats Ludacris]

The shine is fine, no reason to change it all

 

[Papapaint]

Here is my question? How many of us can actually do that in combat? You think that i can just execute multiple shines like that in combat like that?It is a very difficult and situational technique,and the majority of Fox players wouldn't even try to execute that many JC shines.

You can't compare to the best players in the world,because not every player in on that skill level.Comparing me to him is simply stating that i am on that skill level(which i am not),i'm meerly an intermediate level Fox player,and if the JC shine was as easy as it looks,wouldn't every proffesional player execute multiple JC shines and destroy shields..

As you laughed at my post,yours just made me laugh...



I'm sorry,i didn't know being on topic qualified me as being a troll,and i also didn't know why you accuse me of doing so? Or are you just being an idiot...

I'm simply stating a fact that the shine is simply being exaggerated in it's terms of power.Doesn't anyone relize that the only way to use the shine effectivly is to be good with Fox?

Sure,it is boken,but that doesn't mean that it shoud be instantly nerfed,because as you said,what i said won't change,nor anyone else.

It would be diffirent if it were a simple character to use,but Fox isn't.He takes alot of time to master his techniques...Everyone assumes that if you play Fox you can instantly do:

-Waveshines
-Multile JC shines
-Drill shines
-Infinates
-Reverse Waveshine infinates
-Shine spikes

No,you cannot do that...If that were possible,Fox would have an insant win button.

I'm sick of people saying that all of the good characters should be nerfed simply to have the other characters have a better chance.But doesn't anyone try to think that there is rom for improvement? Or is it just impossible? Because X character isn't good against X character,don't nerf the better one,improve the other.

Fox isn't a god in the hands of an average player,he is a god in the hands of a proffesional,and only few are proffesional...

Eternal, I called you a troll because I said:

"Broken =/= Instant Win"

You then replied with:

"How could Broken=Instant Win?You obviously never played with Fox or Falco,because all of those combo's and techs take time to practice,and require quick fingers,and quick reactions."

I made a reasonable post saying that I didn't think the shine was incredibly unfair, but that it could do with some tweaking. Slightly slower startup (a few frames at most), slightly longer active time (a few frames at most) and some staggered knockback (so that the shine becomes more powerful, but less effective in chaining combos). None of my points were unreasonable or required "nerfing" the move. It'd still be a very very powerful move.

I play falco. I can Shine->bAir so fast people don't even see the shine. I can pillar like a madman, and do some crazy tech chasing. I've gone through a good few controllers. With all that said, I still think the shines are a little unbalanced. Not tremendously. I think that they should still be an important part of the movesets, and still require fast fingers to pull off. However, technical difficulty in performing these combos should not be enough to insist that they require no changing.

Ice climbers infinite requires some tough stuff to get started. Luigi's rising tornado takes a lot of button mashing skill. DK's Cargo throw combos take careful timing. Falco's SHL approaches take perfect finger control, as does pillaring. A lot of low tier combos require perfect timing on most moves. I've messed around with fox, and do well enough to pull off a few of the shine tricks, and the benefits of learning how to do them far outweigh the time required.

It's true that not all players can do it. But the few that can end up destroying many other tournament players. In many games--like Magic, for example--when the metagame relies on people having to learn to either play a certain way or understand perfectly how to avoid that method of play, the game has become too unbalanced. Fox is the top character in the metagame right now, and the shine is arguably the cornerstone of his game. The game right now is unbalanced. It shouldn't be a case of "beat em or join em."

I don't think the shine should be nerfed. But I do think it could do with a small amount of tweaking. My post stated that fairly well, and you responded in a very condescending manner.

 

[Shine-Fu]

people here seem to equate "Good with lots of practice" With "Needs fixing" which simply isnt true.

Fox makes the game interesting because good foxes need to practice and practice and practice to get all the little nuances and things down. Is he nearly unstoppable once you have them all memorized? Yes? Good. Can another player, with all the nuances of their character down dominate similarly? No? The other characters are flawed then. Fox requires you work for a high skill level, allowing a skill gap between the best and the rest. All characters should be amazing if you can master them, and the ammount of work to master them should be immense.

I cant think of a move as versatile as the shine. This is the issue, not some percieved stregnth, but rather versatility. The shine has so many uses, that training in its use is a large part of what makes fox such a deep character. Each and every character deserves a move that is this versatile, and thus both strong and deep.

I am not suggesting we give broken moves to every character. (For this argument, assume a broken move is somthing somewhat easy to use (samus charge-shot easy for instance))
I am suggesting that each character get a move that has many different applications, and thus makes the character more versatile in combat.

 

[TastelessRamen]

I like your ideas Shine-Fu, but there is still a problem. I have been playing Fox for two days and I can already waveshine to some extent as well as perform most of the advanced techniques outlined in other posts. I can already see the overbearing power of his moves, and the only reason my play group can keep up with me is because they also switched to high tiers at the same time, so they each have broken moves as well.

I simply can't buy that, "but it takes loads of practice" excuse.

I'm sorry, but versatile and broken are different things and Foxs' shine, Sheiks' forward air, Peaches Down-smash, Marths forward smash, ect... are simply broken.

Here's what I mean, they are ridiculously strong, often capable of instantly killing a skilled opponent at ridiculously low percentages, and relatively easy to execute successfully, as well as having little to no lag before and after and being extremely versatile.

No move should be that good.

Take, for example, Captain Falcon, whose knee I failed to mention. C.Falcons' forward air is extremely powerful, versatile. However, it isn't broken. It comes with a disadvantage, it takes a long time to come out, and only has one frame of "insta-kill" critical hit.

That is different from say, any of the moves I outlined above, which come with little or no disadvantages.

The way to keep a fighting game interesting and fun is to force every player to be adaptable, using different strategies and techniques against everyone. Falcon doesn't have the luxury of forward airing to get out of every situation, he has to do many different things in order to stay competitive. It's no coincidence that Falcon fails to reach the top teir, it's a clear consequence of his lacking a completely unfair/broken move.

As I get better with Fox, I see more and more how multi-purposed the shine is. I can do it to kill my opponent, I can do it to recover, I can do it to delay my fall and confuse my opponent, I can do it to combo into, I can do it to cancel an opponents combo.

And i'm sorry, but simply pressing down b with a semblance of timing is all it takes to accomplish these tasks.

In addition to all of this, a skilled Fox can use the move to do even more things, such as permanent and consistent shield stunning, crippling 0% waveshine combos and more.

Now, I understand it's an exaggeration to say that Foxs' moves are easy, and likely, the reason that I am having little difficulty learning his moves is because I have been consistently playing the game very (and I mean very) often for years. And it's also an exaggeration to say that he can always shine, since it isn't the be all end all of his repertoire.

However, the shine is too powerful for its' ease of use, and difficulty of avoiding. I'd like to see Fox given a more rounded skill structure where the shine was somewhat less powerful, say, taking two frames to start instead of one, and where his other moves were more useful.

I understand the shine is important to the character, and it's pretty fun to do, but the line has to be somewhere.

 

[Papapaint]

I like your ideas Shine-Fu, but there is still a problem. I have been playing Fox for two days and I can already waveshine to some extent as well as perform most of the advanced techniques outlined in other posts. I can already see the overbearing power of his moves, and the only reason my play group can keep up with me is because they also switched to high tiers at the same time, so they each have broken moves as well.

I simply can't buy that, "but it takes loads of practice" excuse.

I'm sorry, but versatile and broken are different things and Foxs' shine, Sheiks' forward air, Peaches Down-smash, Marths forward smash, ect... are simply broken.

Here's what I mean, they are ridiculously strong, often capable of instantly killing a skilled opponent at ridiculously low percentages, and relatively easy to execute successfully, as well as having little to no lag before and after and being extremely versatile.

No move should be that good.

Take, for example, Captain Falcon, whose knee I failed to mention. C.Falcons' forward air is extremely powerful, versatile. However, it isn't broken. It comes with a disadvantage, it takes a long time to come out, and only has one frame of "insta-kill" critical hit.

That is different from say, any of the moves I outlined above, which come with little or no disadvantages.

The way to keep a fighting game interesting and fun is to force every player to be adaptable, using different strategies and techniques against everyone. Falcon doesn't have the luxury of forward airing to get out of every situation, he has to do many different things in order to stay competitive. It's no coincidence that Falcon fails to reach the top teir, it's a clear consequence of his lacking a completely unfair/broken move.

As I get better with Fox, I see more and more how multi-purposed the shine is. I can do it to kill my opponent, I can do it to recover, I can do it to delay my fall and confuse my opponent, I can do it to combo into, I can do it to cancel an opponents combo.

And i'm sorry, but simply pressing down b with a semblance of timing is all it takes to accomplish these tasks.

In addition to all of this, a skilled Fox can use the move to do even more things, such as permanent and consistent shield stunning, crippling 0% waveshine combos and more.

Now, I understand it's an exaggeration to say that Foxs' moves are easy, and likely, the reason that I am having little difficulty learning his moves is because I have been consistently playing the game very (and I mean very) often for years. And it's also an exaggeration to say that he can always shine, since it isn't the be all end all of his repertoire.

However, the shine is too powerful for its' ease of use, and difficulty of avoiding. I'd like to see Fox given a more rounded skill structure where the shine was somewhat less powerful, say, taking two frames to start instead of one, and where his other moves were more useful.

I understand the shine is important to the character, and it's pretty fun to do, but the line has to be somewhere.

I agree on some points, but not with your examples. Marth's Fsmash, Peach's Dsmash, and shiek's Fair are not, in my eyes, broken. Yes, they're vicious moves, but all of those moves need to be set up in some way. None of them hit as fast as the shine, and they're all much more easily punished. Shielding against a Marth means you don't die from Fsmash. Don't CC Peach's Dsmash. Don't let the shiek set you up in the air. And even if you do get hit by one of these attacks, it doesn't necessarily instantly spell death.

Fox's shine, however, when done properly, is unstoppable. Sheilds and CCing do nothing, and it needs very little setup--it is, after all, the fastest move in the game (aside from rest). It's also instantly cancelable.

Yes, it takes practice. That doesn't mean it's not powerful. It takes practice to get a lot of things. Freeze glitch, Soul Stunner, and many other glitches are pretty tough to get. That doesn't mean they're not broken. The fact that people are willing to dedicate so much time to learning how to do these combos is, in my mind, an example of just how broken it is. People dedicate just as much time to luigi's rising tornado, IC's desynching, Falco's SHL, Link's projectile tricks, etc, and the payoff of mastering the shine outdoes them all by a mile, but requires probably the same amount (in some cases, like the tornado and desynch combos, less) of effort.

Broken, in my eyes, is when the payoff of learning is farrrrr greater than the loss of time invested. The IC wobbles combo is broken. The shine is broken. They need fixing. Not nerfing, fixing. They shouldn't lose potency--ICs should still have insane grab combos, the shine should still be powerful--but they should pay off the same way other characters do.

 

[Samochan]

I agree on some points, but not with your examples. Marth's Fsmash, Peach's Dsmash, and shiek's Fair are not, in my eyes, broken. Yes, they're vicious moves, but all of those moves need to be set up in some way. None of them hit as fast as the shine, and they're all much more easily punished. Shielding against a Marth means you don't die from Fsmash. Don't CC Peach's Dsmash. Don't let the shiek set you up in the air. And even if you do get hit by one of these attacks, it doesn't necessarily instantly spell death.

Agreed, though Marth's fsmash and sheik's fair are too easy to set up in many occasion, which makes those two moves extremely dangerous. Removing like, Marth's fair would make it quite difficult for him to combo into fsmash, whereas now it's too easy, just throw them once, fair them accross stage... Sheik's fair would not be so broken if it weren't for her excellent setups that are quite reliable setups for her fair. Grab someone, tilt them, jab them (heck, sheik's jab is broken, 2 frames >_>; ) 75% of sheik's moves lead to the deadly fair. If it weren't for these excellent setups, sheik's fair would be a lot less broken move. With fox, almost any move can lead to shine and the setups are ridiculous and have big payoff, compared to how difficult the shine and the followup is to be dodged. The best way would be of course, just shield the shine, then either wd out of shield, spot dodge, roll or jump cancel shield to an aerial, but even that way can be nullified by fox with a simple jc grab out of shine. ._.

 

[nutinbutadime]

i like shine as is

 

[Papapaint]

i like shine as is

Deep. Well said.

 

[shadowmm151]

i think the shine is great. its combo ability is awesome and it's blazingly fast. however i think they need to eliminate the shine spike. or at least have it send you out and up. it can kill you at very low damage and very easily. this is obviously just for fox in this instance. falco's shine is combo crazy though and should probably have tiny bit of lag added to it to let up on his unrelenting comboing.

but it should not add or get rid of what make the shine a shine. its too cool. it should stay jump canceled.

 

[okami473]

They need to keep the shine, but maybe add a delay time before being able to jump cancel it, which prevent waveshining and what not.

 

[petre]

i think the best way to make the shine not broken is to remove the one property it has over all other moves-the set knockback. think about it. no more infinite combos (unless youre by a wall...), alot less low % spiking, not to mention it would require alot more work to perfect, instead of having to know how far each different character moves back from a shine, you would also need to know how far they are going to travel based on their damage. having a set knockback was just asking to be broken. i mean, if another character had a set knockback move, it would most likely be the most often used for combos, and likely to be part of an infinite as well. a good example is from SSB64, kirby's utilt. it wasnt exactly set knockback, but it was pretty close for the first 5-10 hits. imagine if, say, marths fair had set knockback. not only would the ken combo would be extremely easier to pull off, but youd see alot more things comboing with the fair (as if it isnt used enough).

what do you guys think?

 

[kuenzel]

yep, shinin's the best thing to happen to fox since his uair combo back in SSB64.
Heres to kicking it old school!

 

[Sundown]

Shining isnt broken, and no i dont play fox.

 

[Darkfur]

I got an idea! Mabe if we nerfed the shine, gave Marth a foam noodle, ditched Samus's bombs, scrapped Peache's turnips/spin/float-canceling, disabled all forms of chain-grabbing then everyone could enjoy the game. There needs to be no form of advantage for each character what-so-ever. You wouldnt have to worry about blaming your defeat on the character your opponent used because everyone would have the same generic moveset. I mean, who wants an inresting moveset anyways? Moves like the shine only encourage people to learn tricky combos that add depth to the game. Certanly something that should not be in a game, depth that is.

And I mean there's no avoiding the shine. Its like it zeros' in on you and theres nothing you can do to avoid it. Then if you're a character like Roy who hits the ground after the shine they can hit you with "Thunder's Combo." A combo thats totally noobish and unfair. I mean, they spent hours trying to perfect that move. Why should they be able to beat you? Its seriously gay.

I love satire.

On the other hand, we could focus on the advantages of the characters we play as and not the ones of our opponents. Unless you'd rather just deny that the person you lost to was merely better than you and that it was because of "X" character's "X" move. There will never be a game without some "broken" move. Somebody will take whatever moves that come in Brawl and find a way to "break" it. Someone will also find ways around that "broken" move.

The shine is not so big and bad. Its just one of the key moves that makes Fox who he is. Every character has certain advantages that can/will be exploited and its up to you to exploit the hell out of them. If you want to win that is. If not then why the heck are you playing in tournys?

I'm in agreement with Vulpine here. I may not be able to use it, but I don't think it's broken.

... but... Can we still give Marth a Foam noodle. :D That sounds cool.

 

[Takalth]

The thing that makes shine so good is not any particular property. It's because it's a move with unique characteristics and a large variety of situations where it's useful. A combination of the attack coming out in 1 frame, the ability to jump cancel, the way it slows your falling speed to almost nothing, and the type of knockback (fixed for fox. Good for combos in falco's case).

Instead of taking away some of these properties, they should strive to make moves this cool for more characters. The WORST way to balance any game is to take away cool or strategic stuff.

If a character is powerful because of a super noob move (peach's down smash, for example), nerf the move. If a character is powerful because of a deep and interesting move like the shine, bring other characters up to their level.

 

[petre]

do you think the game would be more balanced overall if every character had a shine?

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

The shine shouldn't change. Anyone who thinks it should probably wouldnt make it out of pools in a tournament anyway.

 

[Gum]

I must agree with Eternal phoenix fire, (that's a first). In this situation he's completely right. There's plenty of ways around a shine spike and the shine in general. If you're getting owned by a fox, change your playing style! There's no reason to complain if you don't put in any effort to get around it. Anyways, I bet it won't change much. Its purpose was to reflect projectiles and stun people. Which it does, so there's no reason to fix what isn't broken.

Actually thats bs. Personally I hope they balance the whole game out in general. As far as shine goes, It's really not hard to use in combat. Oh look I can shine-infinite you forever. I win. You can be a good fox player without using shine at all, and still **** *****es, but shine has become THE fox/falco dynamic. It would be awesome if they got rid of the element where shine stuns you for a ****ing hour, giving your oh-so- lite' opponent time to wavedash in your face and do it over and over again.

 

[Gum]

The thing that makes shine so good is not any particular property. It's because it's a move with unique characteristics and a large variety of situations where it's useful. A combination of the attack coming out in 1 frame, the ability to jump cancel, the way it slows your falling speed to almost nothing, and the type of knockback (fixed for fox. Good for combos in falco's case).

Instead of taking away some of these properties, they should strive to make moves this cool for more characters. The WORST way to balance any game is to take away cool or strategic stuff.

If a character is powerful because of a super noob move (peach's down smash, for example), nerf the move. If a character is powerful because of a deep and interesting move like the shine, bring other characters up to their level.

I agree with this. The only problem is the lack of balance itself. Why should fox/falco have shine, and no other character has a move comparable to it, except peach (who is comparable to everything period). Think about it, the same five characters are used in tournaments world wide, simply because of their character dynamics. People rely so much on individual character elements, master them, and because those elements happen to be so broke, they win. They could be complete crap players with no creativity at all and still win just because they can shine you from here to Vegas all day. Take peach for example. They gave peach insane priority, insane recovery, the ability to attack while flying, projectiles, random item pick-ups, a downsmash that wrecks people who aren't even near her, a counter ability, an insane forward throw, and a dash attack that outranges most other attacks. No other character in the game has as many advantages as peach. y is that?

 

[Takalth]

do you think the game would be more balanced overall if every character had a shine?

Not if every character had a shine, if every character had moves with a lot of depth (which the shine is one of). Some do, such as:

Samus (bomb)
Ness (PK Thunder)
Link (bomb)

Admittedly, only Samus among those three really has much of a chance at top levels of play, but in each case, the move is useful in a variety of ways. Most other moves are either only useful in a few places or are sufficiently good that they are practically used for everything (such as Zelda's kick).

I want to see more moves designed with the same thinking as the shine or those listed above. Whether or not the shine needs a small nerf, they shouldn't make the move more shallow.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

If you want to balance it, add a delay to the end of Reflector like with Ness' PSI Magnet, the kind of delay you can't use glitches to cancel.

If you don't want to balance it, good for you. You can drop your opinion off over there ->

(EDIT: That last line was a joke btw, for those of you who get flame happy <_<)

 

[Adi]

IMO rather than nerfing characters we should just buff other characters to give them their own little "broken ability"

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

How does that fix things? That makes a game look tacky and poorly thought out.

For instance;
"Well, we didn't want to fix these problems, so we just introduced these problems!"

Right now the majority of characters aren't "broken". Rather than "break" those characters and try to balance "broken" abilities, it's easier to fix what's already "broken".

Even if more characters were "broken", some would be moreso than others which would defeat the purpose of even trying to balance them like that.

Can you see the logic there?

 

[Takalth]

If you want to balance it, add a delay to the end of Reflector like with Ness' PSI Magnet, the kind of delay you can't use glitches to cancel.

But then you've balanced it by making it a less interesting move, which is exactly what I want to see them avoid.

The easiest way to balance any game is to make it more shallow, but then you're getting balance at the cost of gameplay. A much more difficult way to balance smash would be to bring all of the other characters up to the level of fox and falco, but if you do it that way, you're achieving balance and enhancing gameplay at the same time.

The shine may need a SMALL nerf (something like cutting a couple frames off of the stun time), but no more.

EDIT: Just read your last post.

A broken move is one which can be easily spammed to replace most other strategies. A good move is one that is extremely powerful in the hands of a skilled player but only moderately useful for a noob. We're not talking about making Samus shoot missiles as fast as fox shoots lasers, we're talking about giving other characters greater potential.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

I was using the terms of the guy who posted before me~

Anyway. Interest is in the eyes of the beholder. If you ask me, a game where strategy matters more than which move you can spam better than the other guy. I realize there's more depth to it than just that, but a game where one class of moves dominates all others isn't a very interesting game to me. Look at GunZ: The Duel, it's an online game. There's a set of glitch techniques called K-Style which really resembles what the top tier characters and players do in the tournament scene.

It got to the point on GunZ where everybody played like that, pretty much, and it got very boring for almost everybody to watch. The only people that cared any more were the people who got so obsessed with spamming their haxx0r move that it took priority to enjoying the game.

That's the kind of thing I think should be avoided in Smash Brothers, having a few characters be so appealing that every "pro" player is essentially a carbon copy of every other "pro" player. Again, I'm not saying that's how it is, I'm saying that's what I feel should be avoided.

It's just interest in different lights I guess, I can see why having a bunch of players jumping around acting like ninjas with different characters could be appealing, but also think of it from the designers' point of view. Why put so much time in effort into creating other things if all people are going to do is bounce around on a flat stage and ignore most every other aspect of the game?

 

[Takalth]

I can see your point, but shine spam isn't what makes a good fox player. While learning good shining techniques is an essential part of mastering fox, you will still only be moderately good if you haven't learned to use other techniques and stay unpredictable.

Keep in mind, giving other characters moves as deep as the shine doesn't mean they have to be as fast. PK thunder is extremely slow, but there's a ton of useful tricks you can do with that. Samus's bombs look unimpressive on the surface, but with bomb recovery, beam cancel, wavebombing, and all of the mind games they open up, a good Samus player can really get a lot done with them.

 

[Klowne]

I got an idea! Mabe if we nerfed the shine, gave Marth a foam noodle, ditched Samus's bombs, scrapped Peache's turnips/spin/float-canceling, disabled all forms of chain-grabbing then everyone could enjoy the game. There needs to be no form of advantage for each character what-so-ever. You wouldnt have to worry about blaming your defeat on the character your opponent used because everyone would have the same generic moveset. I mean, who wants an inresting moveset anyways? Moves like the shine only encourage people to learn tricky combos that add depth to the game. Certanly something that should not be in a game, depth that is.

And I mean there's no avoiding the shine. Its like it zeros' in on you and theres nothing you can do to avoid it. Then if you're a character like Roy who hits the ground after the shine they can hit you with "Thunder's Combo." A combo thats totally noobish and unfair. I mean, they spent hours trying to perfect that move. Why should they be able to beat you? Its seriously gay.

I love satire.

On the other hand, we could focus on the advantages of the characters we play as and not the ones of our opponents. Unless you'd rather just deny that the person you lost to was merely better than you and that it was because of "X" character's "X" move. There will never be a game without some "broken" move. Somebody will take whatever moves that come in Brawl and find a way to "break" it. Someone will also find ways around that "broken" move.

The shine is not so big and bad. Its just one of the key moves that makes Fox who he is. Every character has certain advantages that can/will be exploited and its up to you to exploit the hell out of them. If you want to win that is. If not then why the heck are you playing in tournys?

I was going to come make fun of you guys for complaining about the shine, but this guy summed up everything for me, so now i just feel lost and confused.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

While that may be true, it's still generally people abandoning most other parts of the game for "advanced" aspects. I wanna see that balanced out more than any particular move, because trust me, when a game is improved intentionally without the glitches, it's a lot better.

 

[Adi]

Sorry I should have made that a bit more clear. Rather than make everyone "broken" they should generally enhance the gameplay viability and options for different characters. By the term "broken" I meant some sort of technique or move that greatly enhances an individual characters performance, such as the shine when used properly.

Take for example Mewtwo. He has one of the most limited movesets in the game, if not the most limited moveset. His options at the higher level play is reduced to wavedashing, downtilting, and maybe a reverse shadow ball cancel if you're feeling lucky. All of these moves are either followed by another downtilt, grab or an f-air. In general has no way to enhance his gameplay through different styles or strategies, because his viable moves are only a couple in his arsenal.

That's why each character should have a more viable moveset in general, and have options such as fox and falco open to them. Techniques that you can't spam, but when you use properly significantly improve your gameplay.

 

[Gum]

Not if every character had a shine, if every character had moves with a lot of depth (which the shine is one of). Some do, such as:

Samus (bomb)
Ness (PK Thunder)
Link (bomb)

Admittedly, only Samus among those three really has much of a chance at top levels of play, but in each case, the move is useful in a variety of ways. Most other moves are either only useful in a few places or are sufficiently good that they are practically used for everything (such as Zelda's kick).

I want to see more moves designed with the same thinking as the shine or those listed above. Whether or not the shine needs a small nerf, they shouldn't make the move more shallow.

although these other attacks do have depth, they aren't nearly comparable to shine. Im a samus player. yes bombs have much use, but they are nothing compared to shine. my point is if you can take shine and break it, then I should be able to take samus' (insert move here) and break it too, but I cant because samus doesn't have a move that has that much of a dynamic. SWD can be broken if you dance with it, but thats almost a toss up move.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

although these other attacks do have depth, they aren't nearly comparable to shine. Im a samus player. yes bombs have much use, but they are nothing compared to shine. my point is if you can take shine and break it, then I should be able to take samus' (insert move here) and break it too, but I cant because samus doesn't have a move that has that much of a dynamic. SWD can be broken if you dance with it, but thats almost a toss up move.

Wes + Samus = broken

 

[Chi's Finest]

No, 3-4 frames would be better. For it's original intention of bouncing back projectiles, it should have a much longer startup time.

 

[strider43]

Yea lets take away Fox's and Falco's shines, and while we're at it lets go steal Marth's sword and fracture Falcon's legs and how about lets go and force Sheik to pull her leg muscles... At least it will give the other characters a chance. -.-

 

[bloodvayne]

Just make it a reflector, don't allow it to do damage just by popping out on a character.

 

[o.Odyssey.o]

Falco and Fox would probably nothing without their shine. Just my opinion...

 

[<π]

The shine should have no knockback at all. in stead it should be used to reflect items, or maybe counter attacks....

In my defence I'd like to point out a handful of characters with a defensive attack without knock back... infact lets see where they rank in the tier list. Marth, shiek, Peach. High ranked characters that some how manage to live on without a move that come out instantly sends opponents down and can be canceled into anything including itself.

 

[Takalth]

The shine should have no knockback at all. in stead it should be used to reflect items, or maybe counter attacks....

In my defence I'd like to point out a handful of characters with a defensive attack without knock back... infact lets see where they rank in the tier list. Marth, shiek, Peach. High ranked characters that some how manage to live on without a move that come out instantly sends opponents down and can be canceled into anything including itself.

Marth's CounterAttack: Very rarely used at high skilled play.

Peach's toad counter: Virtually never used at high level play.

Sheik: what move are you talking about?

That's certainly one way to balance the game. Make useful moves useless. Achieve balance by cutting away options, and then we get a button masher game.

No, I'm not saying that the cutting the shine would do this, but that kind of balance mentality certainly would. Cutting options should only be used for balance when every other idea has been tried and repeatedly failed.

If the shine has problems, cut a frame or two off of the stun time. You could still do wicked stuff with it, but a good player could avoid or counter any combos that weren't supported by good mindgames.

 

[Gum]

Wes + Samus = broken

Are you kidding me? Wes+samus=good, not broken. Wes x Phanna + Samus=broken. cmon man.

Anyways there is only a handful of options against shine infinite, and those are only available to certain characters. The point is, don't nerf shine, but give the other characters something equally as interesting and cool that can be used as an advantage. I want to be able to pick up a controller, choose any character I want, and wreck face by using that character's exceptional strong points, like shine. If anything I think that would make the game more interesting overall. Players would no longer just be able to say, "oh Im X and your Y, haha I win" just based on the match up.

 

[tshahi10]

i believe the shines should just have longer startup times.
You should just be able to cancel it normally, except the longer startup time would slow this

 

[Adi]

RRRrragh, I'm so sick of you people talking about how shine infinite is the reason why shine is imbalanced. If that's what you honestly think than you really shouldn't be talking.