How do I do a Barrel Roll? ~ Fox Q&A (Check the OP)

[M@v]

I always had the image that it's pretty safe on shield. That should make things a lot easier now that I play Ice Climbers.

Dair is super easy to punish. Just shield grab after the last hit.

 

[-LzR-]

That will make it soooooo much easier against our Fox player O_o

 

[Chef Fox]

I'm going to a tournament soon and a lot of banned stages are legal. Specifically, there is:
Luigi's Mansion, Pirate Ship, Norfair, Jungle Japes, Port Town Aero Dive, Green Greens, Corneria, and Skyword available for counter-picks, alongside the Unity Ruleset stage list.
Does anyone have any tips or personal experience on any of these stages they would be willing to share? Should I avoid any of them if possible? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[fox67890]

I'm going to a tournament soon and a lot of banned stages are legal. Specifically, there is:
Luigi's Mansion, Pirate Ship, Norfair, Jungle Japes, Port Town Aero Dive, Green Greens, Corneria, and Skyword available for counter-picks, alongside the Unity Ruleset stage list.
Does anyone have any tips or personal experience on any of these stages they would be willing to share? Should I avoid any of them if possible? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I have a nice amount of experience with fox. I'll admit I'm no where near the best, but I think I might be able to contribute some knowledge. Take it or leave it, it's your choice~

Luigi Mansion- personally, I would avoid this stage because the high ceiling(and the ones in the mansion) makes up smash insanely hard to kill. If you do decide to go here though, then one thing to take note of is the if you up throw them in one of the ceilings in the mansion, you can set up a tech chase.

Pirate Ship- not quite sure what to say here :\

Norfair- I suppose the lava could help you survive if you ever get gimped. In all honesty though, I don't have much experience with this stage.

Jungle Japes- Illusion paradise lol. One thing to note here is that with fox's illusion, you could easily maneuver around the stage by grabbing the edges, even if the edge is on the other side.

Port Town Aero Dive- why would they enable this stage ._.
Don't go here, ceiling is way to high

Green Greens- one thing to note here is that you could camp behind the boxes and fire lasers to only go through one row, making you safe. I think illusion works well here, but I'm not too sure

Corneria- I suppose this is a good stage. The ceiling is very low, so you could get an early up smash kill. You could also shine them against the wall on the right side over and over again. This could be escaped, but you opponent might not know this so you could try to test their knowledge.

Skyword- not quite sure what to say here :\

Some of the stuff I said might be wrong because I don't have too much experience on these stage. It would be wise to get someone else's input also.

 

[Chef Fox]

^Thanks for the input.
I went all Fox(minus one Bowser ditto B) ) at the tournament and got second place. Yay Fox.
Have any of you guys noticed how well Fox's first two hits of Fair combo into his other moves. When you fast fall the Fair and hit with only two hits(maybe one or even three) it combos into Jab, Upsmash, grab, turn around Up Tilt, etc. I do it very rarely but it seems to work all the time. Thoughts?

 

[TKD]

i stopped playing and am regaining understanding of fox gameplay so here are some ideas

in general
instead of being stuck spotdodging or rolling in bad blocking situations, it's better to short hop

after walk+block
1. if i see a shield:
grab to beat another grab to the punch, or
wait for spot-dodge or action from block to punish it
2. if anything else happens:
react accordingly

sh nair/dair is extremely viable to counter **** spot-dodges like ddd's and falco's

FOX VS MK
vs roll:
sh backwards (into mk's new spot) to hit him, or sh forwards
when landing:
#. USE SHINE before landing to scout and make the opponent trip (they have to go aerial or upb to hit preemptively if they read this which loses to air-dodge and maybe aerials)
1. if it looks like he'll block, move away
2. if it looks like not, land with aerial

shine when popping out of nado
usmash when he blocks to interrupt upb/roll/grab *roll forwards has a whole 4 start-up frames to hit him
fool around (with walk and hops) to observe what he's doing
DI his bthrow away (maybe down+away+tech)
counterpick stadium 2/battlefield/final
land outside of grab range
be patient and play a slow, hit by hit match (just an idea; aggro may work, i remember i had it down before)
if i'll go through mk with >B, it should be with the invencibility (pretty up close)
don't lose much time by blocking little and move a lot

i have plans to **** olimar too lol

with these things that i used to do, my awesome () fox may beat mk again
you're all welcome to try these out
thoughts?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

in general
instead of being stuck spotdodging or rolling in bad blocking situations, it's better to short hop.

Depends on what you consider "better". You're airborne on the 6th frame with Fox and are still vulnerable for some frames afterwards. The distance gained is also less than when you roll away from your opponent so it's surely the riskier option to choose.
It leaves you with more options for offensive purposes though - if you catch an opponent whiffing a move that way you can punish with weak nair -> usmash or dair -> grab. I'm pretty sure Yui uses this tactic also.

 

[TKD]

it's better. you gain nothing (most of the time) from rolling and it's very easy to react to.
hopping from block is way more of a default action than rolling should ever be, IMO.
rolling is still useful sometimes. buffered roll is amazing on defense.

 

[fox67890]

^Thanks for the input.
I went all Fox(minus one Bowser ditto B) ) at the tournament and got second place. Yay Fox.
Have any of you guys noticed how well Fox's first two hits of Fair combo into his other moves. When you fast fall the Fair and hit with only two hits(maybe one or even three) it combos into Jab, Upsmash, grab, turn around Up Tilt, etc. I do it very rarely but it seems to work all the time. Thoughts?

Your welcome~
As for the fair thing, I find it unreliable to fair to the ground, due to it's short range and landing lag. However, if I ever do mess up doing an auto canceled Fair, I usually go for a grab or something like that. I suppose it could work in some situations, but I think your opponent is able to get out of it. Whenever I do mess up an auto canceled fair, but it connects, I usually go for some time of reward.


Oh hey, it's TKD.

shine when popping out of nado

if i'll go through mk with >B, it should be with the invencibility (pretty up close)

i have plans to **** olimar too lol

I find shining straight out of popping out of nado very useful. Usually from there I go for a soft Nair, which I believe combos into Up-smash at killing percents.

Does fox's illusion actually have invincibility frames? I never knew that.

I have no idea about how to fight olimars and toon links with fox. It just seems like whatever I do, I either get screwed by olimar smashing or grabbing me, or I eat a boomerang/arrow straight to the face. How should these match-ups be played?

 

[TKD]

The first 3rd or 4th or Illusion's trajectory is invincible.

vs Olimar you have to learn to space nair. You have to space it right into Olimar from a full hop or platform drop (from full jump, you should fast-fall it), so it feels like it'll hit no matter which side he moves to. You also have to activate it a bit early so it counters usmash if he does it. Once nair hits, you combo from there (buffergrab/walkgrab/dash attack/usmash: depends).

The tricky part is that you also have to hit him at the side or his back once you're there and drift away from him if he blocks, so he whiffs usmash if he does it and you can then dash attack him, jab to clash with it and then punish or just move away. I think nair is very important as you can guess.

I also think it's best to move onto platforms so pikmin never latch onto you. Shining a white may be pretty good but remember that pitmin toss is the only move in the game you can't hop after reflecting (what's wrong with you sakurai?). Some of the best moves to use if they do is AC full hop dair onto platform, and shine which takes them off in one blow but doesn't work on yellows. Blocking and air-dodging the latched pikmin's hits around can work too LOL...but if it's best to focus on the Oli because he's going for offense, then do that. The only move I've used to get pikmin off of Fox's ears is utilt (shine doesn't reach LOL), but I haven't tried fsmash, usmash, nor sideb (maybe it takes them off quickly :O). Dash away +usmash sounds pretty good for it...

Anyway, use the safe approaches and live in the air. Sneak blasters in when you can (eg when falling from plat since it takes much less time than sh blaster). Having the lead and escaping is a good idea. Olimar's a slow char.

As for Oli chasing you at the air, dair trades with 2 hits of Oli's uair so it's easy for it to counter it, and air-dodging (with fast-fall if you can) when you think the opponent will hop to try to catch you is great: Oli will be above you or stuck in an aerial's animation which is bad for him. Dair beats his usmash too btw, but it's easy for him to block+usmash so be aware of that.

To juggle Oli, watch out for his aerials, try to block and punish them, or bait them (so you can dash attack a whiffed aerial or an air-dodge). If you get directly below Oli, tipper utilt from below works like it does vs most chars. Walk up block works to shield-grab many of his landings too.

CP stages I recommend are Stadium 2, Stadium, and Battlefield, in that order. Lylat is good too because of the platforms: low and numerous for easy approaching. Illusion cancel level 3 from one side of the stage to a platform on the other is something Olimar simply can't catch up to. Full jump + airjump fair + shines are great for making time, and the level 3 illusion if you need it or is a free escape is icing on the cake.

That's why it's best to avoid the pikmin latches: for the advantage in damage, so you can pressure the opponent with the timer.


I don't really know the match-up against Toon Link, but some ideas: shine+hopcancel his boomerangs, avoid his bombs, juggle/combo him, bait his grab (he can cg, and dsmash from cg, and dsmash at around 10% sends you very far away). The most puzzling thing for me when fighting toon link is his zair because most chars don't have that option. Camping toon link with blasters and ****** him up close when you can may be the best idea. Avoiding his zair is probably a good idea too. He's probably not fast enough to punish an away roll before zair gets to Fox. If you do block the zair, maybe full jumping away works, unless he's not fast enough to catch up to a roll in that situation either. If you can get a hitbox in there before zair comes out, toon link will be hit, so that's good when you can make it happen.

So yeah vs TL I'd say reflect boom, avoid bomb, camp with lasers, juggle where you can even though zair stops juggles well, play your close quarters game around his zair, avoid cg at low %. Shine kills TL when he's recovering. His upb can be shined from above or with ledge invincibility. You'll have to do more if he has a bomb of course, and may not have chance to ledgehog if he boomerangs the ledge.

 

[fox67890]

Wow. It took a while for me to digest all of that information. :o

I've heard many say to use nair against Olimar, but I never thought of hitting his side or back, and then reacting accordingly. That makes a lot more sense than what I have been doing. ._.

I suppose I need to shine hop TL's boomerang more perhaps then. Before, I didn't really know TL's projectiles ATs and had no idea when certain projectiles were coming. TL's zair also seems to mess me up occasionally. It's good to know that fox is fine in close range
I actually never thought of that method of halting TL's recovery. That should help me against some TLs I know.

That was very helpful information you shared. Thanks TKD~

 

[TKD]

No prob. Remember to try to find out more for yourself and come tell us

 

[Kuares]

Shine kills TL when he's recovering. His upb can be shined from above or with ledge invincibility. You'll have to do more if he has a bomb of course, and may not have chance to ledgehog if he boomerangs the ledge.

Just wanted to say that ledge invincibility doesn't really work depending on the placement of the recovery, from I've seen of Zeton vs MJG. Fox has to go alittle further from the ledge for Shine to work but when it works, it's awesome.

Need to find out what TL's options are for recovery. He can't Zair recover with a bomb but what that actually changes is what I don't know.

 

[BadKarma]

so I was playing around in training mode today and tried short hop air dodge, and it seemed like from the start of the sh to the landing he had invincibility frames and it canceled.( so I think) I was wondering if fox does get invincibility frames when he does this from start till he lands. I buffered the air dodge from the sh.

 

[fox67890]

Just wanted to say that ledge invincibility doesn't really work depending on the placement of the recovery, from I've seen of Zeton vs MJG. Fox has to go alittle further from the ledge for Shine to work but when it works, it's awesome.

Need to find out what TL's options are for recovery. He can't Zair recover with a bomb but what that actually changes is what I don't know.

Link can zair with a bomb. He has to airdodge first and then do the zair. Thus, he actually could zair the ledge with a bomb in hand. I would assume it's the same for toon link.

so I was playing around in training mode today and tried short hop air dodge, and it seemed like from the start of the sh to the landing he had invincibility frames and it canceled.( so I think) I was wondering if fox does get invincibility frames when he does this from start till he lands. I buffered the air dodge from the sh.

I believe he does get invincibility frames from start to finish, but I'm not 100% sure. Regardless, SHADing (Short hop air dodging) is a very useful maneuver for fox imo, due to the length of his short hop and fast falling speed. It helps to penetrate the enemy's zone and do some damage from there. Some useful strings from SHADing are Utilts, grabs, double jab canceling, down smash, and upsmash.

 

[TKD]

SHAD isn't a good option. You can't be invincible until like frame 9, and there are 4 frames of landing cool-down. It's also easy to react to and punish, without even the need to think about it.

Every time I punish it or watch it get punished (which is most times people do it), I remind my friends that there's no good reason to do it.

It does work sometimes, but then again everything does. Maybe it's good vs pikmin toss or something.

 

[fox67890]

^

Oh, I actually didn't know that. I'll be sure to keep that in mind.

 

[izic]

I'm having trouble consistently upsmashing OOS and I use L(jump)+ Cstick + R(shield) to do it. Sometimes I accidentally grab instead of doing an upsmash. Is there an easier way to do it? Maybe R(shield)+ X or Y(Jump) + Cstick?

 

[Kuares]

If you got Tap-jump on, you can just upsmash with Up and A, the jump will input automatically for you. For me, I set R to jump so that only one hand is putting in the commands. I think it works better for Muscle memory, but not exactly sure.

Sounds like you're pressing the commands to close together. If I remember, there should be a decent window after the jump to upsmash. Just practice ever so often and it should get easier as time goes on

 

[fox67890]

Speaking of up-smashing out of shield, I actually have a question.

So a few days ago, I was watching a video about "Shield SDI to Buffer Grab". Upon reading the description, I find this:

"-Not in vid -
SDI to buffer Upsmash OOS - Must have tap jump on. Press up on the control stick and forward on the c-stick during shield hitlag."

Sounds very useful imo, especially since fox's up-smash is lethal. Only one problem though. I don't use tap jump :\

So I have two questions:

1) Is this possible to perform without tap jump, and if so, how?

2) Does anyone else do this? If so, do you find it useful?

 

[Jet300]

How do you do SHTL? I been trying to do this AT all day.

 

[izic]

How do you do SHTL? I been trying to do this AT all day.

There's a few ways to do it but using L to jump and B for special has been the easiest for me.

 

[BadKarma]

I'm having trouble consistently upsmashing OOS and I use L(jump)+ Cstick + R(shield) to do it. Sometimes I accidentally grab instead of doing an upsmash. Is there an easier way to do it? Maybe R(shield)+ X or Y(Jump) + Cstick?

The easiest way I think is to press up on the control stick while in shield (assuming you have tap jump off) then sliding your thumb across x or y (jump button) to the A button. Its the only way I can do it consistently.
Hope this helps.

 

[vato_break]

does d-tilt make opponents trip?

 

[crifer]

does d-tilt make opponents trip?

No, I don´t think so. Most moves that make someone trip send the character horizontaly to the stage...

Another question: I just tried SDI ing snake´s nair in training mode.
I tried quartercircle DI and just normal DI with SDI. (Dual stick DI).
I tend to get out if I DI away or down... if I DI away it´s not safe because it depends if the snake moves forward or backward whie doing a nair.
If I DI the nair down, I sometimes get out and can punish with dair, dsmash whatever BUT if I screw up. I´m dead @ high %.

Shine can work if I DI into him, but if I screw up... I die :D

How do you guys get out of Snake´s Nair?

 

[Chef Fox]

@crifer
You've got to keep smashing the C stick upwards. Go to 2:20 on this video to see what I'm talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecrl_hzvPlM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[crifer]

@crifer
You've got to keep smashing the C stick upwards. Go to 2:20 on this video to see what I'm talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecrl_hzvPlM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Yeah I´ve seen that vid, but I thought about other ways to get out more easily or to punish it better...
other suggestions?

 

[DUB]

The best way to DI Kirby's F-throw combo is to smash DI the up-air up and away right? However I never seemed to be able to jump after unless it was on a slope. F-throw-Up-Air-F-tilt is def true on Fox.

Side Note. I been playing this for the past 3 days quite a bit with our Kirby main. Would it throw off the flow of the match up thread if I bumped the Kirby Matchup thread with a write-up?

 

[Ragnar0k]

local kirby main lolololol

 

[C.R.Z]

Guys what gives off more hitstun in general
dthrow, dashAttack or utilt?

this is quite important

 

[Robfox]

^^^^^ I would say Dthrow only because dash attack's restart doesn't give enough time to react to it's hitstun & Utilt gives very little as im sure we've all seen.

WHO'S GOING TO APEX!!!

 

[C.R.Z]

what about on high damage? like 100+

 

[Jet300]

what about on high damage? like 100+

Well, Fox's Dthrow dose like 9%. Dthrow is a good option to do on high damage.

 

[C.R.Z]

Well, Fox's Dthrow dose like 9%. Dthrow is a good option to do on high damage.

not damage, hitstun -_-

 

[DUB]

What is this hitstun you speak of?

 

[Jet300]

not damage, hitstun -_-

Well, Fox's Dthrow dose not gives hitstun. Sorry for the late reply.

 

[Robfox]

^^^^^.........um
yea it does bro

 

[TKD]

The best way to DI Kirby's F-throw combo is to smash DI the up-air up and away right? However I never seemed to be able to jump after unless it was on a slope. F-throw-Up-Air-F-tilt is def true on Fox.

you're not SDIing. don't lie to us.

Guys what gives off more hitstun in general
dthrow, dashAttack or utilt?

this is quite important

i guess dash attack deals the most, but the cooldown is enormous. just remember that airdodge interrupts hitstun.

 

[fox67890]

Since it was brought up in that other thread and I've been wondering about it for awhile, I'll ask about it now.

About running off the stage and jumping back on with lasering so that it hits enemies with low crouches (like Kirby and Snake), how is that done? I think I heard someone call this technique "rain lasering", but I'm not sure.

Anyway, is it just as simple as running off and then double jumping and lasering back on to stage with the correct timing? I was just wondering if there's any B reversals or something like that involved.

TKD does it around 1:34 in this video.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Man using SHTL is so weird to me. I mean granted, I can totally do it now after some practice but I have to place my hands in the weird way to play Fox while doing it. Like my left hand is in a normal position like you would for a GC controller. Left thumb on Control stick and left index on the L button (Shield) But my right hand is all jank. lol Like my right index is on the B button (Special) and my right middle is on X (I can't use Y to jump it feels wayyy to awkward with my giant hands). I can still freely switch to use the A button and stuff but it just seems janky lol My Y button is grab for convenience. I was just wondering what people think I should try to make this easier. I mean I can SHTL consistently using this method but Im hoping there's an easier way so that I don't have to keep using this weird form.