How Can Anyone Believe in God?

[Gamer4Fire]

Reading for complete idiots.

Dude, I admited to the off topic part of the abortion thing, and that was way before that. I posted the abortion thing way before we got on to that subject. I love how you're avoiding this by claiming im off topic and calling me crazy.

^ doesn't have anything to do with the current question.

Yeah, cause that's claiming that you are off topic and crazy. Instead of pointing out that the question hasn't come up yet.

^ the question of causation comes up.

Oh, wow! The current question that I spoke of comes up! Holy Purple Monkey Dishwasher Dumbman! YAAFM.

This is what I want to know, and I've been saying this for the past posts. How is believing in the Universe always existed, and believing a God always existed any different? I'm not talking about Earth, Im talking about the particles, if you bash me for believing in something that I cannot see, you should re-look at your argument.

And I already answered this question, we already know that the universe exists. YAAFM.

Thank You Alt for actually responding to me, instead of being a bad example of a debater by trying to stray away from the subject by using childish name calling.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And now the explanation (w/ slides!).

Here's something that I want explained Snex. Where did all these evolutions come from? You'll say a cell. Well where did that cell come from, you'll say the big bang, which you will then say came from a super nova exploding, but where did that super nova come from? These things can't just exist, that would defeat logic. And if you say they can, then why can't God exist?

And in the beginning, lonleyjedi makes a false question about causation. A high school student can tell you that there is a vast difference between abiogenesis, evolutionary and the big bang theory. YAAFM.

Oh wait! lonelyjedi says that he's a high school student! Maybe he is lying.

Then you continue with the odd statement: "These things can't just exist, that would defeat logic." All the evidence that these theories are based on definitely follow logic. In fact, the universe existing is kinda self evident. YAAFM.

Oh yeah, and I bring up the infinite causes point and you say:

No it's not. Here's my point. I believe that God was here, by faith. So for you to believe that something was always here, and didn't come from something, then you are using the same faith that I am, and it's now not based on logic, but what you think you happened. So when you question my belief in a God that always was, you have to question your belief in particles that always were.

And I already answered this question, we already know that the universe exists. YAAFM.

You don't get my point, Im not talking about the earth. Im talking about how the earth got here, you have no proof of how the earth came together, because everything had to have an origin. If the earth came from the Big Bang, well where did that come from, and so on.

And we come back to the infinite causes... again. YAAFM.

You still haven't answered my question, neither have I changed the subject, you have. I asked about how the earth came to be, not the question of if the earth exists. Im staying with the subject, and you're the one avoiding it.

And now a completely different question, where did the earth come from? It coalesced from the matter and gasses from the formation of Sol. Yeah, you are really staying on subject. YAAFM.

And we are back to:

This is what I want to know, and I've been saying this for the past posts. How is believing in the Universe always existed, and believing a God always existed any different? I'm not talking about Earth, Im talking about the particles, if you bash me for believing in something that I cannot see, you should re-look at your argument.

And I already answered this question, we already know that the universe exists. YAAFM.

Woah, deja vu. Teh matrix must have a glitch [sic].

So I'll recap. Your questions were, in order:

"Where did all these evolutions come from? You'll say a cell. Well where did that cell come from, you'll say the big bang, which you will then say came from a super nova exploding, but where did that super nova come from?

"If the earth came from the Big Bang, well where did that come from, and so on.

"I asked about how the earth came to be, not the question of if the earth exists.

"How is believing in the Universe always existed, and believing a God always existed any different?"

YAAFM.

Thank you for playing beat the moron the home game! I know that you could probably go anywhere to get humiliated and beaten like a mental ******, but we are proud that you have chosen the Gamer4Fire for all your abusive needs. If you have questions or comments please post them in the forum at present. And don't be afraid to request the official Gamer4Fire beat down services in the future.

 

[lonejedi]

Yeah, cause that's claiming that you are off topic and crazy. Instead of pointing out that the question hasn't come up yet.



Oh, wow! The current question that I spoke of comes up! Holy Purple Monkey Dishwasher Dumbman! YAAFM.



And I already answered this question, we already know that the universe exists. YAAFM.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And now the explanation (w/ slides!).



And in the beginning, lonleyjedi makes a false question about causation. A high school student can tell you that there is a vast difference between abiogenesis, evolutionary and the big bang theory. YAAFM.

Oh wait! lonelyjedi says that he's a high school student! Maybe he is lying.

Then you continue with the odd statement: "These things can't just exist, that would defeat logic." All the evidence that these theories are based on definitely follow logic. In fact, the universe existing is kinda self evident. YAAFM.

Oh yeah, and I bring up the infinite causes point and you say:



And I already answered this question, we already know that the universe exists. YAAFM.



And we come back to the infinite causes... again. YAAFM.



And now a completely different question, where did the earth come from? It coalesced from the matter and gasses from the formation of Sol. Yeah, you are really staying on subject. YAAFM.

And we are back to:



And I already answered this question, we already know that the universe exists. YAAFM.

Woah, deja vu. Teh matrix must have a glitch [sic].

So I'll recap. Your questions were, in order:

"Where did all these evolutions come from? You'll say a cell. Well where did that cell come from, you'll say the big bang, which you will then say came from a super nova exploding, but where did that super nova come from?

"If the earth came from the Big Bang, well where did that come from, and so on.

"I asked about how the earth came to be, not the question of if the earth exists.

"How is believing in the Universe always existed, and believing a God always existed any different?"

YAAFM.

Thank you for playing beat the moron the home game! I know that you could probably go anywhere to get humiliated and beaten like a mental ******, but we are proud that you have chosen the Gamer4Fire for all your abusive needs. If you have questions or comments please post them in the forum at present. And don't be afraid to request the official Gamer4Fire beat down services in the future.

Thanks for the mental beat down G4F. If I ever feel like I'm too happy and have to be brought back to reality by being mentally beat down, I'll be sure to come here.

 

[Deleted member]

You see, it is possible that the universe just simply "is" and was never actually created. Thus it requires no "creator".

As lonejedi said, the same logic can be applied to God. And it will be, if you continue reading:

Before Hawking developed this theory, it was a common argument to say "Well, clearly the universe MUST have been created, and it MUST have been created by someone or something." But we now know that this is not true, it is possible that there was no creation.

Just because someone important in the scientific community has a theory contradictory to the current one, (the idea the universe must have been created) that does not mean that the current theory is deemed not true. It's just another possibility.

Either you're appealing to authority or you didn't understand lonejedi's post - it made a lot of sense actually.

How is believing in the Universe always existed, and believing in a God always existed any different?

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Because we already know that the universe exists.

 

[Deleted member]

Then I know you aren't fit to debate.

 

[lonejedi]

Then I know you aren't fit to debate.

Watch out Delorted, you disagree with Gamer, he might call you really mean names like Moron and ******. Just a warning. Oh and, and me might mentally break you down, to where you can't go on anymore. Just a warning.

 

[cF=)]

How is believing in the Universe always existed, and believing a God always existed any different?

Show me the rationality of this before I keep on debating, I'd like to further know your stance.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Watch out Delorted, you disagree with Gamer, he might call you really mean names like Moron and ******. Just a warning. Oh and, and me might mentally break you down, to where you can't go on anymore. Just a warning.

Gee, really? I didn't know that I had affected you so much. I apologize for destroying your confidence in yourself and undermining your self respect. Do you need me to go out and get you a straw?

Then I know you aren't fit to debate.

Okay, wait a minute here. Your question was as quoted by lj that to believe that either gods have always existed or the universe always existing are equal in the amount of belief. (If not, correct me now so we don't go in circles like lj did.) And my point was and is that we know that the universe exists, but we don't know that gods exist.

So it is a lot easier to see and create a logical basis for the universe having always existed. But you have to go through a lot more work to find proof that gods created the universe and they always existed because we have nothing to show that they did. It is therefore a big difference in the amount of faith.

You can also go back and read this posted in different words in the back and forth between lj and me.

 

[Deleted member]

No. Leaps of faith are subjective. You think it's hard to believe in a higher power - we get that. Others find it very easy and incorporate it effortlessly into their lives.

Furthermore, just as this is a subjective side-bar, I find it very hard to believe in a universe that exists infinitely. I may be living in it right now, but that doesn't stop the fact that it's tough for me to see.

You don't seem to understand the idea of subjectivity; this is why I posted what I did.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

But I don't need a leap of faith to believe that the universe may have existed eternally. There is enough evidence, for example, for me to believe that the Earth is four and a half billion years old. Between geological, astronomical and radiological evidence, I am sufficiently convinced the Earth to be that old.

I have no evidence, however, to have any belief in the existence of any gods. I would like to know why you don't believe in other gods. Plenty of people believe in Krishna, Allah, Amaterasu, Yubu, Waheguru and Ahura Mazda. Why don't you believe in them?

 

[Deleted member]

Nice try, but you still cannot seem to grasp the simple concept of subjectivity. Your post shows only your beliefs. What is your thesis? We disagree on our fundamental beliefs, this is fairly obvious. This is a subjective matter; your opinion isn't factual.

I have not placed any allegiance to any particular God. Why are you asking me that?

 

[Gamer4Fire]

What? It isn't subjective, I was presented evidence to prove an objective point that the earth is four and a half billion years. The evidence was compelling enough for me to agree. It isn't my opinion, its a generally agreed upon theory. If I was talking about something whether white chocolate or dark chocolate is better or if I preferred sunny days to cloudy days, that is subjective.

And I asked you why you didn't believe in those gods because it is gives me information about your beliefs. So why don't you believe in Hutu, Tirthankaras or any of the other gods I've asked about?

 

[cF=)]

Your post shows only your beliefs.

To believe or disbelieve, you need evidence. If you don't show me proof of god, it's not even a debate nor a subjective matter.

 

[AltF4]

Come on, G4F. You don't have to be quite so hostile.

Del:

The exact meaning of this is tough to put in words. The no boundary condition does not assert that the universe "was not created", but rather "it did not HAVE to be created. There are other possibilities."

So that means when you're having a debate (what we're doing) and someone says "well, hey, the universe MUST have been created" that is a false statement. It might have had a moment of creation, but it might not have. So you can't say that it MUST have been created.

Make sense?

 

[lonejedi]

Gee, really? I didn't know that I had affected you so much. I apologize for destroying your confidence in yourself and undermining your self respect. Do you need me to go out and get you a straw?

Yes, a blue swirly straw that lights up would be prefered, but if you can't find one, a regular one will do.

Okay, wait a minute here. Your question was as quoted by lj that to believe that either gods have always existed or the universe always existing are equal in the amount of belief. (If not, correct me now so we don't go in circles like lj did.) And my point was and is that we know that the universe exists, but we don't know that gods exist.

So it is a lot easier to see and create a logical basis for the universe having always existed. But you have to go through a lot more work to find proof that gods created the universe and they always existed because we have nothing to show that they did. It is therefore a big difference in the amount of faith.

You can also go back and read this posted in different words in the back and forth between lj and me.

Let me ask you something Gamer, let me ask you a legit question. Have you ever tried Christianity, have you ever given it a shot. Instead of outright bashing it and not even trying something out, have you even given it a thought. You say I 've never seen God, so how can he exist. Well that's partially because you've never even tried. That's like me saying I don't like Fish, but I've never tried it.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Come on, G4F. You don't have to be quite so hostile.

Did you read what he put me through in the first place? There is a reason I got angry. I'd say it is akin to the righteous anger that Jesus displayed to the pharisees in the temple at Jerusalem. Although we had different reasons. But the point being that he kept changing what he was saying until I decided to display the documented evidence in chronological order... Then he blows me off like I didn't write anything of content! So I repeated my evidence with vicious commentary.

Let me ask you something Gamer, let me ask you a legit question. Have you ever tried Christianity, have you ever given it a shot. Instead of outright bashing it and not even trying something out, have you even given it a thought. You say I 've never seen God, so how can he exist. Well that's partially because you've never even tried. That's like me saying I don't like Fish, but I've never tried it.

You mean have I gone to church and heard their message? Sure. I have plenty of Mormon friends, also. They are relatively unabrasive. Have you ever tried Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Islam or Zoroastrianism? If not, then how do you know that you have found the correct religion? If you haven't tried fish, you won't know if you don't like it. And I'm not just saying that to be a jerk, have you ever really tried any other religion other than your own?

 

[lonejedi]

Did you read what he put me through in the first place? There is a reason I got angry. I'd say it is akin to the righteous anger that Jesus displayed to the pharisees in the temple at Jerusalem. Although we had different reasons. But the point being that he kept changing what he was saying until I decided to display the documented evidence in chronological order... Then he blows me off like I didn't write anything of content! So I repeated my evidence with vicious commentary.



You mean have I gone to church and heard their message? Sure. I have plenty of Mormon friends, also. They are relatively unabrasive. Have you ever tried Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Islam or Zoroastrianism? If not, then how do you know that you have found the correct religion? If you haven't tried fish, you won't know if you don't like it. And I'm not just saying that to be a jerk, have you ever really tried any other religion other than your own?

I know what most of those believe in, and have friends who belive in all of them, and I still stand on the one I stand on. And I'm not talking about just going to church and hearing a message. Anyone can do that, if that were true, then everyone has been a christian at some point in time. Im talking about experiencing it, giving it a month, raelly delving into it.

I can't say I've done that with all those religions, because I haven't, but what I've gotten from Christianity, is enough for me.

EDIT:

Alt: You say it could go either way, it could be true, it could be wrong. So you're putting your belief in something thats not certain. Sure my beliefs rely on that, but for someone who's arguing on logic, you're putting your faith in something that could be wrong.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Yeah, I tried that once with a government program and now I'm a trained killer. I'm not dumb enough to do that twice. But I was a regular church goer at one time. Never did anything for me. You can't force someone to believe. Could you make yourself believe that Krishna was the one true god? Neither could I.

 

[AltF4]

Jedi:

No, I don't believe that the "no boundary" condition corresponds to our universe. It has no evidence to suggest that it does. I don't believe in things without evidence. But it could be true, and that fact is what's important, for reasons previously stated.

 

[Crimson King]

Jedi, you basically attacked G4F's lack of faith and pretty much told him to try to believe in a god, but when he suggested you try other religions, you blew it off with the exact same evidence as he used against you.

How is that even logical?

My stance of the topic at hand? I don't care. If there is a god, he did a good job starting things, and we did a good job ****ing things up. If their is no god, mother nature did a good job starting things, and we did a good job ****in it up. I really can't see a god like the Christian, all powerful father figure god, existing just because of how the world runs. Free will pretty much opposes omnipotence which is a major tenant of what god is.

 

[Falco&Victory]

This thread is still alive >_>

Praise Allah someone closes it lol

But anyway this thread is pointless, no one can have a point in an unprovable argument. It's like watching presidential politics.

If there's a god, we're f***ed when we die. If there's not a god, we're f***ed when we die.

 

[Miharu]

If there's a god, we're f***ed when we die. If there's not a god, we're f***ed when we die.

I don't really understand the reasoning behind this statement.

If there's a god, we can potentially go to heaven, if it exists.

If there isn't a god, then there might still exist alternatives such as reincarnation etc.

 

[Falco&Victory]

If there's a god he'll probably be pretty pissed at us for lack of devotion, and if there's not then reincarnation just doesn't sound likely to me >_>

but idk until i die so i won't argue ><

 

[memphischains]

If there's a god he'll probably be pretty pissed at us for lack of devotion, and if there's not then reincarnation just doesn't sound likely to me >_>

but idk until i die so i won't argue ><

I don't believe in "god' persay, but more like a higher being. Kind of like the city in the giants fingernail if that makes sense.

But, based on the idea of God, he gave of thr right to devote otherwise.
If he acually created us, and wanted us to worship him undoubtfully and say OMG OMG OMG U TEH GOD TIER then he would have i guess.

does that make sense?

 

[Kips]

All evidence shows that God is not alive, such as when he commands that one shall not worship a false idol. Apparently this can apply to pretty much any other religion, but I see no smitings. The idea of being created, of coming out of nowhere, makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

If there's a god he'll probably be pretty pissed at us for lack of devotion, and if there's not then reincarnation just doesn't sound likely to me >_>

Lack of devotion. It depends on which god we are talking about. Wōden only wants you to die a glorious death in battle. And a few of the Chinese gods only want you to live a good life and afford people the same respect they afford you. For other gods, the only requirement is to be part of its chosen people and you get in autmoatically, everyone else is subhuman.

If a god does exist, how do you know which one it is?

 

[Crimson King]

Falco&Victory, post intelligently or you will be the first casualty of my relaxed system.

 

[snex]

if god exists, then god wants us to be atheists, because god provides no evidence of his own existence. thus, if god exists, all atheists will go to heaven, and all theists will go to hell (or just get another try, if he's nice).

 

[RDK]

Jedi, you basically attacked G4F's lack of faith and pretty much told him to try to believe in a god, but when he suggested you try other religions, you blew it off with the exact same evidence as he used against you.

How is that even logical?

My stance of the topic at hand? I don't care. If there is a god, he did a good job starting things, and we did a good job ****ing things up. If their is no god, mother nature did a good job starting things, and we did a good job ****in it up. I really can't see a god like the Christian, all powerful father figure god, existing just because of how the world runs. Free will pretty much opposes omnipotence which is a major tenant of what god is.

Technically, if you're talking about the Christian God, He did a good job starting stuff, AND a good job ****ing stuff up.

God creates humans with the capacity to sin. Humans sin. God blames humans? Quite a holy god that is.

 

[Sandy]

God does exist for a number of reasons

#1 Cause I'm a Christian

#2 It says so in the Bible

#3 If you believe the Bible is not true well i have a way to prove it, there are prophets in the old testament, and they have prophesied. all those prophecies have been fulfilled

#4 Nature PROVES that God exists, because all those different designs in nature, a big bang couldn't of have made that or a spec that was alive, there had to be a creator therefore GOD, he does exist

 

[Falco&Victory]

Falco&Victory, post intelligently or you will be the first casualty of my relaxed system.

No more 'my 2 cents' stuff huh?

God does exist for a number of reasons

#1 Cause I'm a Christian

#2 It says so in the Bible

#3 If you believe the Bible is not true well i have a way to prove it, there are prophets in the old testament, and they have prophesied. all those prophecies have been fulfilled

#4 Nature PROVES that God exists, because all those different designs in nature, a big bang couldn't of have made that or a spec that was alive, there had to be a creator therefore GOD, he does exist

number 3... only Muslim prophecies have been fulfilled.......
and they could have been 'prophesied' after they happened >_>

and #4.......
A scientists years back put gases into a sealed container and shot electricity through it. In a few hours bacteria began to form to live off the gases, without any exposure to earth's atmosphere. After slowly changing the gases in more recent experiments the bacteria begin to adapt very slowly...

I'm christian, i'm just saying you could have valid reasons >_>

 

[Miharu]

God does exist for a number of reasons

#1 Cause I'm a Christian

#2 It says so in the Bible

#3 If you believe the Bible is not true well i have a way to prove it, there are prophets in the old testament, and they have prophesied. all those prophecies have been fulfilled

#4 Nature PROVES that God exists, because all those different designs in nature, a big bang couldn't of have made that or a spec that was alive, there had to be a creator therefore GOD, he does exist

All your opinions are skewed/biased because you are of the Christian Faith.

It's just as easy to say that either none of the aforementioned exists, or are false, as follows:

1) I'm not Christian.

2) I don't believe in the Bible (aka it's false)

3) You can't use something itself as proof of it's own existence.

4) Theres plenty of scientific research that's been done to show that evolution can and indeed does occur.

But there's really no way for either side to conclusively prove to the other either the existence or non-existence of God.

 

[Digital Watches]

Um... anyone else think this is really tedious and repetitive?

I hate religious debates.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

If you believe the Bible is not true well i have a way to prove it, there are prophets in the old testament, and they have prophesied. all those prophecies have been fulfilled

If you have proof of this, I would be willing to listen.

 

[lonejedi]

Um... anyone else think this is really tedious and repetitive?

I hate religious debates.

*raises hand*

I make an attempt to try and debate in these, but it's really hard to debate something, when you believe something based on Faith.

I think this thread should be closed, I think we're not going to get any where deeper into the debate.

 

[RDK]

and #4.......
A scientists years back put gases into a sealed container and shot electricity through it. In a few hours bacteria began to form to live off the gases, without any exposure to earth's atmosphere. After slowly changing the gases in more recent experiments the bacteria begin to adapt very slowly...

Do you have a source on this?

I hate when people post things without sources. I could talk all day long about magical leprechauns creating the universe, but without sources, my arguments aren't valid. I hold you to the same principles.

 

[Deleted member]

I make an attempt to try and debate in these, but it's really hard to debate something, when you believe something based on Faith.

Especially when the faithful are considered liars and harassed for their beliefs.

Red Font, your post applies to almost everyone in this thread. For some reason, people are failing to cite sources and claiming they win before they do so. Look back, that one guy was complaining about it.

 

[Miharu]

Do you have a source on this?

I hate when people post things without sources. I could talk all day long about magical leprechauns creating the universe, but without sources, my arguments aren't valid. I hold you to the same principles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primordial_soup

A rather short description of a hypothesis on how life on Earth was able to originate from non-life.

 

[RDK]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primordial_soup

A rather short description of a hypothesis on how life on Earth was able to originate from non-life.

I'm familiar with that hypothesis--my statement was basically me making a point about how half the people in this thread post vague examples without citing sources.

Thanks for the link, though. At least someone does it.

 

[Falco&Victory]

stfu >_>


It's a famous test so I thought everyone had heard about it.

I have a link to prove it too
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=3999354&postcount=278

Lol but yeah evolution is natural. And with it being impossible to see outside our universe we have no idea what's out there

No link for this(was on some weird site) but many scientists hypothesize WE are a simulation, hence pseudo-thought and other weird stuff(don't take this as a point, just 2 cents i'm pitching)