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How Can Anyone Believe in God?
- Thread starter RDK
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- Jan 14, 2002
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Sadly, I can't warn him because that quote could be doctored. It's best to just ignore *******.
Peeze
Smash Master
I got the same pm. At least i made him laugh.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I wish people who had that amount of free time on their hands would just do what is required to be a full-time debater.
The only hate-mail I got was for my poetry thread. Surprisingly, I didn't get any from this one.
The only hate-mail I got was for my poetry thread. Surprisingly, I didn't get any from this one.
Oddly enough, I don't get much hate-mail. And to stay within the scope of this topic, that is why I do not believe in god, because she would have smitten me down by now, otherwise.
This reflects a lot about your poetry.
Ouch. Hear that bacon sizzle.
*HIDES FROM FUNDIE CHRISTIANS*
snex
Smash Master
heh ive gotten lots of PMs about my debates here, and usually they were positive. ive even scored one conversion story. :D
D
Deleted member
Guest
Actually, it doesn't. I didn't even receive hate-mail, I exaggerated. One guy simply disagreed and told me it was a literary art-form.
Wow, I exaggerated a lot. Looking back -
re: poetry
Hey dude, I read your post about yout thoughts on poetry. Poetry is very subjective and it's like philosophy, it can sway from person to person and give off different emotions/thoughts etc simply depending on the person who read it.
Not hateful at all.
I did, however, get plenty of posts saying I was spot on and they thought my thread was hilarious.
/derail
Quicksand
Smash Apprentice
I agree. The question now becomes; does the opposer's bias become apparent when taking a supposed "objective" look at said topic?
The answer to your question is: God is. He had already promised that he would destroy Satan. He must allow Satan to exist for a short while because when Satan rebelled in heaven, the question, not of God's power, but of his right to rule. Once that question was raised, it must now be made apparent without any of God's influence that anything apart from God (keep in mind, the ultimate authority) does not bode well.
When looking at this matter, we must toss aside any preconceived notions that the human experience has given us and look at things from what "God's point of view" would be. Ending suffering temporarily does nothing to remedy the original problem of rebellion from God. God has promised a "resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous" -Acts 24:15, and he promises so in a timely manner. Healing an amputee or saving someone from starvation does absolutely nothing other than help Satan's case. The whole point is that humanity as a whole must see the consequences of rebellion.
God promises to make "all things new" so we need not worry what happens in the temporary circumstances we reside in, or what happens to us.
I couldn't agree more. Good thing that the bible doesn't teach that God will torture you eternally - no matter what.
Quicksand
Smash Apprentice
So you then disagree that 1 + 1 is impossibly anything but 2?
Whether or not a theory can be falsified doesn't make it unworthy of consideration.
Quicksand:
Yes, mathematics is based entirely off of a few unprovable axioms. (Google "Peano Axioms" for example.) It is conceivable that these axioms are in fact false, thus negating all of mathematics. Yet I do not believe this to be the case.
And also yes, non-falsifiability does make a theory unworthy of consideration. Perhaps fun to think about, maybe even intellectually stimulating. But not worthy of consideration in the sense that we might actually believe it to be true.
Yes, mathematics is based entirely off of a few unprovable axioms. (Google "Peano Axioms" for example.) It is conceivable that these axioms are in fact false, thus negating all of mathematics. Yet I do not believe this to be the case.
And also yes, non-falsifiability does make a theory unworthy of consideration. Perhaps fun to think about, maybe even intellectually stimulating. But not worthy of consideration in the sense that we might actually believe it to be true.
snex
Smash Master
my only bias is that of observable reality. no gods are observed, so no gods must be believed in until they are.
[
if this is the route you want to take, then you have no basis to say that god is good, or that morality comes from god. you cant say that god is good, god's morality for humans is good, but god is not himself subject to it. if morality is to be objective and from god, then god himself must follow it - or it aint objective morality.
but even without this semantic argument, it shows that god does not *love* us. we all know how a loving parent would act when somebody threatened their child. god refuses to act because he does not love us or doesnt exist.
lastly, its just the excuse you use to evade the fact that god refuses to show himself. even if you are correct about god's motives, you are still left with the fact that without showing himself, your belief in him is not justified. we could just as easily posit that the true god is the god of islam, but the reasons he refuses to show himself are exactly the same.
in short, your answers put you in no better a position than you were before. the problem of evil still remains problematic.
the bible doesnt teach most things that most christians believe. and it teaches a lot of things that very few christians believe. you all just cherry pick the parts you like and ignore the parts you dont. that doesnt speak much for any of it, especially when god himself refuses to come down and sort it out.
Quicksand
Smash Apprentice
The fallacy is that when referring to God, we must be referring to the ultimate authority. So if God is indeed the ultimate authority, then that would nullify any and all sort of implications we place on what we think the course of action he should take would be. He would obviously know (and would define) what would be the correct course of action. If God is not the ultimate authority, then he does not deserve our worship.
Well, let's take the view of a higher power, and not necessarily the Christian God. Empirical evidence shows that we don't get what we have so far without intelligent or premeditative thought. Voltaire (who seethed with sarcasm in his theological statements) said that "if God does not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
Also, the Christian and Islam (and Jewish) God is the same. Both religions follow the God of Abraham.
What is evil? It is only defined by what individuals place on it. We think that shooting somebody is "evil" because we as humans have already placed a psychological stamp on it that our minds read as "ouch". In reality, evil is just the absence of goodness and truth, God. How can you measure coldness or darkness? You can't. You can only measure the absence of (or amount) of heat or light in the area. In the same way, all evil is, is the absence of righteousness. God didn't "create" evil, it is an inherent part of being separated from godliness - deciding something that you have no authority or wisdom to decide.
That's a strong generalization you place on me. Just because you have some hypocrites, it doesn't make the original idea invalid. You can't judge the bible based on what some Christians do.
The bible does not teach that God tortures people eternally.
Quicksand
Smash Apprentice
What was the point of bringing this up? I say this because.... v
In reality, nothing is falsifiable. Can you prove everything is not an illusion? No you can't.
We can only go by what apparent evidence points us to - we are able to deduce a "fact" based on what we observe, without having doubts on it's reality.
snex
Smash Master
but it is your claim that god has deigned to give us some rules that are moral rules. if he himself does not follow those rules, then either he is not moral, or the rules he gave us do not need to be followed because they arent moral rules.
i dont know who told you that lie, but you should stop listening to him. there is no evidence anywhere of any intelligent creators except for humans.
they are not the same god. they demand different things of their followers.
was hitler evil? by what standard? he claimed to be doing god's will in mein kampf. since you have no authority or wisdom to decide, maybe god *really did* tell hitler to do what he did. after all, he told the hebrews to commit genocide on several occasions. whats one more, right?
if youre just going to appeal to ignorance of god's will, then you have no authority to make moral judgments AT ALL! this puts you in an even worse position than the atheist who holds himself or society as the arbiters of moral authority. you are simply lost and have no basis to decide that anything is good or bad, since god's motives are hidden from you.
do you keep kosher? the bible says you should. do you stone homosexuals to death? the bible says you should. ill bet you dont follow either of these rules that god himself gave and deliberately put in the bible.
not eternally. no. but most christians DO believe this. and in any case, torture in hell at least for a finite time IS taught in the bible. this is only slightly less horrid than eternal hell.
Quicksand
Smash Apprentice
God does follow his rules.
If you were from another country and came to USA and looked at Mt. Rushmore - you would not think that it was a byproduct of chance erosion over millions of years. You obviously know it has a designer. Similarly, science and evolution does not have an answer (other than speculation) as to how things as complex as a single cell could come from non-living matter could come about. Let alone amazingly complex systems like the Bombarder Beetle's acid spray, blood clotting, bacterial flagellum, the immune system, etc. could come about by mutations and natural selection. Not only that, but we can't even fathom how the entire universe and the amazingly fastidious laws of physics and nature are able to be in place. Everything appears to be specifically designed for life to be supported.
Yes, just because science cannot current account for life does not prove that "God did it". However, the deeper and deeper we delve into the complexity of life, the more we see that - things just don't happen on it's own. Life gives evidence of purpose, not the mindless accumulation of mutations.
They are the same God, whether or not the interpretations of either one which may or may not be true is correct. All three claim to worship the God of Abraham. Whether or not they are doing it right is another matter all together.
Yes, Hitler was evil. By God's standard as set forth in the Bible.
Jesus did away with the Mosaic covenant, this means no more sabbath, no more passover observance, no more stoning homos - he told us to follow the examples of the congregations he set forth in the first century.
No it isn't.
snex
Smash Master
no, he doesnt. you even admit as much at the very end. ill address that later.
i would also know that mountains 1) do not reproduce, 2) have no environmental selection to look like human faces, and 3) can and are regularly cut by humans. i also know that humans have a tendency to make statues of themselves.
where is your similar evidence for biology or physics? oh right, you got none. youve never seen or observed any gods in any way, so you have absolutely no idea how likely theyd be to create biology.
and why did you just lie to me? biologists do have evolutionary explanations for the bombardier beetle, blood clotting, flagellum, and the immune system. you could have easily searched the scientific journals for these topics, but you instead chose to repeat the lies told to you by your fellow christians. quite despicable. if you want to be respected here, you should immediately stop telling lies.
just look at what happened at the dover, PA trial about intelligent design. mike behe was on the stand, and was given several books on the evolution of the immune system and over 30 papers on it. and even though he admitted that he hadnt even read most of them, he said that none of it counted! the judge of course saw right through this and ruled that intelligent design was religion, not science, and therefore could not be taught in public schools. your leaders are lying frauds and you would do well to stay away from them. if you want to learn about biology from a christian, then look at francis collins or ken miller.
another lie.
it is not the same god at all. the muslim god says that jesus was NOT divine.
you mean the standard that says that genocide is evil? but god ordered the hebrews to commit genocide on the midianites, the ammonites, the jebusites, and others.
BZZT! jesus never did away with them. it was st paul who claimed that they no longer applied. you know, the st paul that never actually met jesus?
how about this one... jesus said you should hate your family. he also said you should sell everything you own. have you done either of these?
it absolutely is. any torture at all is horrid. somebody who loves you will NEVER torture you. and, isnt torture one of those things thats against god's rules? so if he does it, he isnt moral. oops.
Quicksand:
Of course we can falsify theories. In fact, that's all we can do with them.
Unless (and this sounds like what you're doing) you're trying to appeal to some sort of Descartes-ian evil genius (or Matrix, equivalently) world. I see your point that a posteriori knowledge is fallible, but at some point we have to place (reasonable) belief that our observations are true and not manipulated by some malicious omnipotent creature.
I mean, otherwise you might as well never get out of bed right? After all, who knows if it's the floor beneath you and not a poisonous monster in disguise?
If someone had a theory that the sun should have changed color to blue yesterday, we can say with reasonable belief that it didn't, and is thus falsified. Because, after all, if an evil genius were angry at us and was omnipotent, we're screwed anyway. Might as well make false assumptions.
Of course we can falsify theories. In fact, that's all we can do with them.
Unless (and this sounds like what you're doing) you're trying to appeal to some sort of Descartes-ian evil genius (or Matrix, equivalently) world. I see your point that a posteriori knowledge is fallible, but at some point we have to place (reasonable) belief that our observations are true and not manipulated by some malicious omnipotent creature.
I mean, otherwise you might as well never get out of bed right? After all, who knows if it's the floor beneath you and not a poisonous monster in disguise?
If someone had a theory that the sun should have changed color to blue yesterday, we can say with reasonable belief that it didn't, and is thus falsified. Because, after all, if an evil genius were angry at us and was omnipotent, we're screwed anyway. Might as well make false assumptions.
- Joined
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Quicksand:
Double post one more time and you are gone.
Double post one more time and you are gone.
Peeze
Smash Master
Paul never claimed that the mosaic law no longer applied. He said that the law was fulfilled in christ, and that the law was needed to make transgressions manifest, until the seed arrived. Jesus ended the mosaic law.
Jesus never said you should hate your family. He said disowning oneself, and following christ would cause divisions in families.
The bible teaches that when you die, your dead. Your conscious of nothing. Feel no pain, emotion, etc. In fact god himself says that the thought of torturing humans never came up into his heart.
snex
Smash Master
you dont even know your own holy book.
this is what jesus said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
and this is what paul said: "As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean."
remember that paul never actually met jesus and never had the conversation about old testament law with him.
jesus said: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."
this is not a translation error. the original greek confirms that it does in fact mean "hate" in our modern sense of the word.
i guess you arent familiar with the phrases "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and "lake of fire." they both appear several times in the NT.
Quicksand
Smash Apprentice
Please refer to what you're talking about.
Yes, but mountains are formed by "blind" natural erosions.
Even if my believes from God are false, doesn't make evolution true.
There are explanations, but an explanation is separate from factuality, the explanations rely on assumptions. There is no observable information to show that the above systems could indeed evolve.
Actually, Behe was never given a chance to read all the papers on the evolution of the immune system. The dumping of the books on the court stand was just for show, and in poor taste at that. Also, when Behe said that "none of it counted" it was because NONE OF THEM ever answered the questions he raised - no one can seem to understand that he is looking for the reasons such processes would occur - not the assumed process.
It would be an opinion either way. Instead of just saying "another lie", you should back it up with the reasons as to it is a lie.
Jesus isn't God. Like I said, all three religions claim to worship the God of Abraham, whether or not they are doing it right is a whole different matter all together
There is no scripture that says "genocide is evil". Killing and murder are two different things. Murder is unjustified killing. The only way killing is not murder is if it is under edict from a divine and ultimate authority. Anything less would not have the right to do so. The ones that God ordered the Isrealites to kill were ones who willingly and knowingly, even after given chances to turn around, decided to reject God and stay apart from him. They also were really into child sacrifices, big gay sex orgies, and bestiality. Not to mention all the false God sacrifices.
It was in harmony with this purpose of God that the Messiah Jesus began to lay the foundation for a congregation of which he would be the divinely appointed head. The individual members of this congregation under Christ were not personally foreordained or predestinated; only the number of members and their Christian characteristics were foreordained. Just as he showed by his teachings, Jesus knew that the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34 foretold how God would make a "new covenant" with His people. Accordingly, the old Law covenant that Moses had mediated for the natural Jews would come to an end.
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26) Jesus obviously did not mean that his followers should literally hate their family members, since he commanded people to love even their enemies. (Matthew 5:44) Rather, Jesus here meant that his followers must love family members less than they love God. (Compare Matthew 6:24.) In keeping with that understanding, the Bible says that Jacob "hated" Leah and loved Rachel, which meant that he did not love Leah as much as he loved her sister, Rachel. (Genesis 29:30-32) Even our own "soul," or life, Jesus said, should be hated, or loved less, than God.
But there is absolutely no torture.
Quicksand
Smash Apprentice
In discussing this place, Jesus did not use the word "Hades," the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word "Sheol." Rather, he used the word "Gehenna." This word referred to a refuse dump close to Jerusalem, called the Valley of Hinnom, where a fire was kept burning to destroy the garbage. It was a fitting term to make Jesus' listeners think, not of eternal suffering, but of complete destruction, annihilation by fire.
The Revelation given to the apostle John speaks of a "lake that burns with fire and sulphur" into which are thrown all those who practice bad things. (Revelation 21:8) If hell exists, this must be it, since the wicked go there. But this same Bible book tells us that death, inherited from Adam, and Hades will be thrown into this same lake of fire. Can these two abstract things suffer? No. But the fire here can and does represent their disappearance, which will take place once they have 'given up those dead in them,' that is, after the resurrection of the dead. -Revelation 20:13, 14.
These last examples show that fire is only a symbol for annihilation, or eternal destruction. So there is no suffering in the lake of fire, or Gehenna, any more than there is in Hades (or, Sheol), where faithful servants of God, as well as wicked people, go.
snex
Smash Master
yes and we know the kinds of patterns that natural erosion has. we can LOOK and see them. we can even classify them according to the type of environments that cause them. while they sometimes create patterns that vaguely resemble human faces, they do not create exact replicas of 4 real human beings, all of whom had historical significance in the country in which the mountain appears.
imagine instead that you are an alien arriving on earth, and that all humans have gone extinct. there are no pictures of us, no bones, nothing, *except* for mount rushmore. since you are an alien, you are not familiar with how our environment interacts with mountains. you also have no patterns to compare them to. in that situation, you might not even consider mount rushmore distinctive at all. it simply would not jump out at you as something out-of-the-ordinary. identification of design depends FULLY on our background knowledge. you have absolutely no knowledge about biology, so you are not justified in making leaps of judgment to design.
which is entirely irrelevant. evolution has EVIDENCE. your god has NONE.
the explanations are based on the same assumptions that all science uses - namely that the world isnt lying to us when we perform experiments. that is the only assumption required, and you yourself hold it every time you put an object that looks like food into your mouth, or take a step onto what looks like solid ground.
never given a chance?? the man claims to be an EXPERT in the area! he has no excuse to not have read papers relevant to the field before-hand. what happened was that he was exposed as a fraud and a liar. he claims to be an expert and it was proven in court that he was not. any scientist who wants to make claims about the evolution of the immune system MUST have read these papers. behe did not. and YOU havent read them either, so how can you possibly know whether or not they answer the questions? you are displaying the same arrogance that behe did. you refuse to even read the subject you pretend to be critiquing. its pathetic and dishonest.
can you demonstrate that its true? if not, then asserting it is a lie. dont do it.
who says jesus isnt god? most christians say he is. jesus cant be simultaneously god and not-god. he either is or he isnt, and the people claiming the opposite of each other are not worshipping the same god. unless you want to claim that god is contradictory (and im more than happy to oblige that, it means he doesnt exist!)
youve just given the greatest reason of all to reject christianity. you honestly think that if a booming voice came into your head and told you to start gassing jews, it would be moral to do so. thats EXACTLY what hitler did! and since you admit you cant know the mind of god, you have no authority to say hitler was wrong.
this doesnt even address what i said.
i see, so the bible is literal when you say it is, and not literal when you say it isnt. it must be great to know better than god himself, who chose the words to be written.
a lake of fire sounds pretty torturous. or do you ignore that part too?
Wow, someone angry at a christian that isn't me. This hasn't happened in a week and a half.
Good bye Quicksand. It's really nice of you to double post right after being told not to.
About your entire death is nothingness, this man disagrees with you and he has all the scripture to prove you wrong. The bible explicitly states that hell is an eternity of pain in the fires that burn but do not consume. Of course I'd be more impressed if it weren't for the fact that the bible can say anything you want it to.
Good bye Quicksand. It's really nice of you to double post right after being told not to.
About your entire death is nothingness, this man disagrees with you and he has all the scripture to prove you wrong. The bible explicitly states that hell is an eternity of pain in the fires that burn but do not consume. Of course I'd be more impressed if it weren't for the fact that the bible can say anything you want it to.
Quicksand
Smash Apprentice
Yes, we see "design" in the faces.
The aliens would notice Rushmore because it is vastly different than any other rock formation around it. If I looked a sheet of paper covered in red, I would notice a little blue dot in the center.
It is not irrelevant, it doesn't prove evolution because you think that God doesn't have evidence.
The explanations science gives for evolutionary processes are assumptions without a factual basis for believing so. This isn't to say that there isn't any merit in them, but until we actually figure it out, we need to stop parading it around as undeniable.
I understand it would be hard to see the opposite point of view when you only accept force feeding from opposing view's propaganda. Instead of assuming Behe's motives and knowledge, why not take a look at what he himself had to say: http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=697
Yes, I prove that it is an assumption based on the fact that scientists cannot (using any amount of elements under any circumstances) cause a cell to come from non-living matter.
God = God
Jesus = God's Son
Based on the Bible, we know that a booming voice did not come into Hitler's head, and it will not come into my head. We cannot know the mind of God, we can only assume to know his motives by what he has told us in the Bible.
Jesus set forth the first century Christian congregation. As such, we are able to realize that we are no longer under the Mosaic covenant as also proposed by the scriptures I posted.
That would be the case if it didn't fortuitously go against what I would hope would be common sense and the obvious demonstration of a metaphor - also showing other parts of the bible to being in harmony with what I said. The only way that you can claim that I cherry pick which parts of the bible are literal is if you egregiously ignore obvious illustrations and metaphors.
If I was hurled into a lake of fire, I don't think I would be "tortured", I would think I would be instantly destroyed, how am I suppose to survive a lake filled with fire? In the Bible, fire is used as a symbol of purification and destruction.
Inanimate ideas and objects are shown to be hurled into the lake of fire in the Bible. Please explain to me how "death" can be "hurled into the lake of fire" and suffer for eternity, especially realizing that death is not a conscious being?
Kips
Smash Ace
The Bible is merely a way to inspire fear that creates altruism. It is a guildine that shouldn't be taken literally, but more of moral lessons to show that it pays off to be good.
Quicksand
Smash Apprentice
What is your basis for saying this?
PRINCESS PEACH777
Smash Lord
well do you belive in God.......?
i know i do
i know i do
Digital Watches
Smash Ace
See? Theists have all the fun.
Digital Watches
Smash Ace
The *******S. Why can't I have schizophrenic visions of an almighty dude telling me what to do?
With enlightenment comes a curse.
Do you really think the Bible is the ultimate moral absolute? What is THIS based on, may I ask?
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2002
- Messages
- 28,982
I'll give quicksand the benefit of the doubt that he missed my warning, but really, I am just being lazy.
Princess Peach, don't start posting badly already. It won't help you.
Princess Peach, don't start posting badly already. It won't help you.
Digital Watches
Smash Ace
...That's what she said? Wait... that doesn't work.
I'd enlighten her curse all night long... no, not that either.
Whatever, it's lame enough on its own.
Duh. From the bible of course.
Sandy
Smash Champion
In absolute honesty, why do the atheists here bother to argue with anyone regarding the existence of God? Wouldn't you perceive it to be rather a waste of time better spent elsewhere?
I am sure you could apply that argument to any debate. Does that mean that we shouldn't bother with debates?
Falco&Victory
Smash Champion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment#Experiment_and_interpretation
THERE it is
anyway yeah, it was miller urey, but i knew that more than just amino acids were created. Lipids(fat), sugar(cellular chemical energy), AND amino acids(building blocks of organic systems) were all formed in just one week. All gases/energies used in the test were those commonly found in earth's atmosphere. Seeing as these organic compounds became microorganisms, then plants/animals, then eventually humans shows that life, theoretically, COULD form without divine intervention. My science book referred to Miller Urey and other experiments(all listed under 'other experiments') and related that earths conditions were right for forming the basic nucleotides(sugar, phosphate, and a base(thymine, adenince, cytosine, and guanine bases)).
Lulz at me believing in god
THERE it is
anyway yeah, it was miller urey, but i knew that more than just amino acids were created. Lipids(fat), sugar(cellular chemical energy), AND amino acids(building blocks of organic systems) were all formed in just one week. All gases/energies used in the test were those commonly found in earth's atmosphere. Seeing as these organic compounds became microorganisms, then plants/animals, then eventually humans shows that life, theoretically, COULD form without divine intervention. My science book referred to Miller Urey and other experiments(all listed under 'other experiments') and related that earths conditions were right for forming the basic nucleotides(sugar, phosphate, and a base(thymine, adenince, cytosine, and guanine bases)).
Lulz at me believing in god
Quicksand
Smash Apprentice
That's why scientists are making microorganisms out of organic compounds all the time in the lab.
Oh wait...
I never said that. Only an omniscient being can give a moral set and it be faultless. The question now becomes: How do I know that that being is the Judeo-Christian God?Red Darkstar Kirby said:
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