Houston Smash Ultimate Thread

[Gea]

Some FDs have walls that reach down to the bottom blastzones. Like the Pac-Man arcade level.
That's already starkly different than an omega Battlefield.

The point though is that someone taking you to FD is going to be taking you there because of the most prominent feature. If you ban the stage, you're going to ban it for the same reason someone will CP it. No platforms, flat, long. Let the CPer get the choice in which version.

For starter, let the person who doesn't "pick" FD select which version. So if you are the one that gets to choose between 2 stages and you pick FD, the other person picks which FD. Boom, done.

Edit: Zano's breakdown of the stage list is pretty good.

 

[alex mora]

Oh cool. That's close to where I live.

hope to see you out then!

 

[RunC.T.]

After lurking for a billion years, I'm finally talking in this thread, lol.

got the game on release, mainin Rosalina. offensive frame traps are too good with this character.
she forces roll dodging and baits shield options for good damage. fast, strong characters are her only weakness as far as I've been playing.

 

[Xyro77]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x60Rvt4kjXg&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA

Its broken. Im not sure on how to handle it. Early brawl teams was kinda dominated by G&W bucket as well. But this time its pretty insane

A few things.


1. One thunder=full bucket?

2. Several other teams that have a GW can do the same, right?

 

[UltimateRazer]

Can we have the Wario Ware FD banned? The camera is zoomed out way too much for some reason.

A few things.


1. One thunder=full bucket?

2. Several other teams that have a GW can do the same, right?

1. One thunder = full bucket. The worse part is that thunder comes out on frame ONE. So literally if they are next to each other in the beginning of the match, you get a bucket. It kills at 0, breaks your shield, and even stuns your invincibility somehow. It is extremely polarizing and would break the counter pick system. There is none. It's literally pick pika/GW to fight back.

2. We haven't seen another team that can do this. Filling a bucket with 3 aura spheres and killing at 0 like in Brawl is a powerful technique but not damaging like this.

 

[Zano]

yes one thunder fills the bucket instantly

most likely they can but pika is the most optimal cuz you can't stop it period.

few other very important details.

thunder comes out on frame 2 and will drop regardless of pika getting hit

gnw is invincible during bucket

gnw dthrow confirms into bucket

it breaks shields

it causes your invincibility on respawn to stagger for like 5 seconds so they can just fill up another bucket and hit you with that

 

[Gea]

Because of how bucket was changed, yes. I think thunder is the best one, though. As for Razer's request, I am like 99% sure that punch-out's ring has the same blast zones (has the same top, no idea about the bottom) without the zoom issues.

Edit: www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcWLT8a6iqk

 

[RunC.T.]

yea, that gw/pika team is nasty. guess we counterpick to battlefield? spawns aren't next to each other.

 

[UltimateRazer]

My gripe isn't with the blast zones (so all for glory stages have different blast zones? Not the same?). Just that Wario Ware FD makes the camera zoom out a lot. It's bothersome for sure when there's literally 33 other FD stages to pick from.

 

[Gea]

I'm telling you that Mac's is 100% the same without the zoom, meaning that banning it would change nothing if someone wanted to go there. As in go ahead.

 

[UltimateRazer]

So just get the TO if they refuse not to pick somewhere other than Wario Ware FD correct?

 

[Gea]

I think that's reasonable. I mean it's up to the TO but it's one of those things that you'd have to be a pretty big jerk to not take tolerably after a little explanation.

 

[UltimateRazer]

There's always that guy out there somewhere.

 

[Xyro77]

I find it funny that you guys wanna jump on this issue yet you all lost to an uncounterable character who dominated singles and doubles for 6 years.

Irony? Or did you all learn?



Anyways, my next question is WHAT do I ban? Thunder isn't the issue imo because a ZS or a Samus or Robin or Rob or any projectile char can do this with GW. It's the bucket Id think, right?. You guys just said it literally trumps, shields/invincibility and he's invulnerable while collecting and emptying with the bucket.

 

[Xyro77]

as for FD being zoomed out. Who cares? It doesn't give any fighter any more advantage than any other FD.

 

[Shaya]

Well, the issue with Japes and ledges/water, is that most characters cannot grab another ledge without using their recoveries due to their awkward jump heights + that large window you cannot regrab the ledge in. And unlike in Brawl, once you're in the water, you will die.
I think its an extreme that tips the balance of absurdity over, but on base merits it's fine as a CP.

Still not feeling Ferox.

I'm not really sure what one could do about Pikachu/G&W in doubles ruleset wise.
Characters like Falco, villager, rosalina/etc should have no issues with it. But it's definitely very polarising.

 

[TheJerm]

It just looks weird. But I'm sure if you tell your opponent you don't like that fd stage razer, your opponent won't make a big deal. Unless it's me, I'm definitely taking you there

Also xyro, you could ban pika and gnw from bucketing, but still allow the characters to team

 

[Shaya]

If we were to go down a path of banning individual specials, even default ones, we could resolve this.
But at the same time ban all the G&W bucket specials that absorb... just if they team with Pika? Seems dumb/unfair. His teamplay niche is definitely bucket though, so you would gut him competitively if it was a universal ban, and you'd be taking out like 2 of his specials for it too. Eh.

I think we're screwed.
Unless we turned doubles into some sort of draft picking with character bans...

 

[Gea]

as for FD being zoomed out. Who cares? It doesn't give any fighter any more advantage than any other FD.

It's almost like playing on fixed camera mode. Small projectiles hard to see because of the 3DS resolution.

 

[UltimateRazer]

It's almost like playing on fixed camera mode. Small projectiles hard to see because of the 3DS resolution.

This. It's hard to see and the camera doesn't ever zoom in or out.

 

[Teshie U]

Speaking of certain FDs being unsightly, any chance we can consider banning the Pacman, Pictochat, Balloon Fight and Gameboy ones? Pacman and Pictochat makes it impossible to see shadow sneak (greninja) and ballon fight has fake water covering much of the off stage play area. Gameboy Kirby stage is just super ugly.

We still have boxing ring and nintendogs (among others i dont recall) for solid FDs for wall jump/clingers. We don't lose anything by putting in a gentleman's clause about not forcing people onto these uglier stages.


I know this is gonna sound crazy but...

Has anyone considered playing doubles with team attack off? Its not all down to simple spam just because you can't harm your partner. Alot of skill comes down to stopping gimps before they happen (only pacman and megaman can save their partners without hitting them) and the team spacing game is more hectic/exciting similar to watching marvel assists/teamwork.

Prominent projectile spam tactics would get countered by a single character having a reflector and at high levels we might see things we have never imagined for Smash doubles.

In any case, For Glory doubles is TA off, so people should try it out, it gets pretty epic.



Anyone else have their 3DS screen turn blue on loading screens sometimes?? I've started getting that, I wonder if my screen is about to blow out. I've barely used my 3DS in the two years I've had it tbh so that would suck.

 

[Teshie U]

@XYRO, also you are gonna have to accept that walkoffs weren't banned based on a single character. Maybe it was your reason, but the community at large will acknowledge walkoff camping as a castwide issue much like circle camping. Walkoffs and circle maps are banned because they will ruin EVERY MATCHUP. This means you have to drop reset bomb, guar plains and maybe jungle japes (aerial characters can easily circle others here). Walkoff camping isn't entirely unfair, it just degenerates the same to sudden death. First backthrow/forwardthrow takes the stock. You might as well let people CP sudden death mode.

Arena Ferox is NOT the same situation as pokemon stadium 1. Stadium gave extremely good spots to camp, but you CAN go in and beat someone in those positions. Arena Ferox is just FD alternating into various TERRIBLE layouts that all devolve into circle camping. We have 30+ FDs already, having one that wastes half the time on the clock is a waste.

Tortimer Island is randomly generated, how do you plan to regulate a random platform layout? I have no problem with it spawning minor items, but I definitely take issue with the stage being completely different at random. Keep in mind there is no ledge on the left side and TWO ledges on the right side at times. The size and layout of stage would definitely enhance runaway tactics (probably not to the point of breaking them) beyond what I think anyone would want to allow. Just consider you are playing Lucina vs Sonic. On Battlefield I make a defensive read and get past you. I can waste maybe 5 seconds before I have to confront you again. On this stage, I can probably waste 20. Just some stuff to consider.

Japes is in the same boat as tortimer, the runaway enhancement might not break EVERY matchup, but a character with superior aerial mobility can greatly reduce the number of conflicts between players. I'd be careful before letting this one loose again. Stages like this will fundementally be bad in every smash for competitive play. Honestly, I really wish this stage could be good. The water current this time around presents us with a way to counterpick against GOOD vertical recoveries(walkoffs aren't a good option here), but the size and platform layout mean those good recoveries will just be used to stall anyway. If this stage was battlefield/FD with raging water, I'd be all for it.

Paper Mario goes from walkoff to aerial circle camp (platform layout) to hard circle camping (physical barriers) on some kind of brinstar depths remake. No chance for this one.

Boxing ring is straight up walkoff+ circle camp.

Guar plain, c'mon man, this stage is obviously too ****ing big and the layout is ******** even if you cut this stage in half. I"d probably play this one with items on, but hell no for competitive 1v1 or 2v2.

Why haven't you even considered Corneria? I've seen 0 confirmed wall locks, ledge abuse is the weakest its ever been and its nearly impossible to ANYONE to go under the stage. If you destroy the cannons under the ledge, they apparently don't ever respawn ( I waited for 3 minutes, they never came back).

Brinstar could be fine. It was banned heavily after MLG when M2K abused it vs Ally with MK. People might not be very welcoming of hazards again, but the layout does add some unique things without breaking anything I can see. Sharking is much less of a problem as your next ledge grab will still get you punished.

Prism Tower is Delfino without the random factor. Walkoff for 10 seconds, then smooth sailing and a good CP vs ground huggers like mac and sonic I think.

The new ledge mechanics have finally recreated that "king of the hill" feeling that Smash was designed to have. Walkoffs definitely ruin that. Our best chance of reintroducing them was in Brawl where we had sloped walkoffs that made backthrow camping nearly impossible (its pretty much impossible to walkoff camp on Yoshi's Island Pipes or Distan Planet unless you are Olimar). I don't forsee any way to solve permanent walkoffs without a way to entice players to return to the middle. Projectiles do NOT stop walkoff camping because you can always walkoff camp with someone with stronger projectiles.

I sympathize with you wanting a wider stagelist, I was super liberal about stages in Brawl where we had 3 stages the whole world loved, 10+ stages that were used somewhere and 20+ that was fun for item play. This time we have 2 stages the whole world loves, maybe 5 we could use otherwise and 30+ that was basically just minigames that are completely outside the realm of competition.

Your result should be:
Final Destination (all 30+ lumped together)
Battlefield (best stage in smash bros imo)
Yoshi's (I think we can forgive the ghost platform yet again)
Prism Tower (encourages mobility and displaces zoners who set up shop often)
Brinstar (displaces zoning character, more emphasis on aerial combat)
Corneria (there is a harmless glitch with reflectors here)

I'm an advocate of full stage list striking for a truly balanced stage for the matchup, but I only see 6 legal stages in this game. We have 3 that favor grounded characters and 3 that favor more versatility.

Didn't mean for this post to be so long, hopefully you give it a thoughtful read anyway,

 

[Xyro77]

I've been around brawl from the beginning. DDD is the reason walk offs were banned. One grab is guaranteed stock loss. Chain grabbing is gone and thus walk offs are fine. Blast zone camping is no diff that staying near the ledge camping. Get near the foe and they must leave the blast zone. They can't roll/jump/grab but one direction and that direction is away from the blast zone.


Anyways, I'll figure something out when it comes to stages though. I guess turtle island and guar plains are most def disliked so those are out.

I had Corneria legal for like 2 years at the beginning of brawl. Stiltz won hobo 10 or 11 on that stage.

 

[z00ted]

i agree with tesh

 

[Sync.]

Why weren't there walk offs in Melee? I basically agree with Tesh's post. Corneria is iffy for me but w/e I'll deal with whatever happens. I guess it's innocent until proven guilty...

Allan I really don't think blast zone camping is equivalent to staying by the ledge. You don't risk instant death for one mistake at the ledge. Characters have recoveries and can pressure people near the ledge (camping near the ledge isn't always a good thing). The new ledge mechanics change the ledge from a safe haven to something that you don't want to be around for too long.

Also, why were walkoffs allowed in Brawl mid/low tiers? There were no chaingrabs present there.

 

[Xyro77]

Are there any walk off stages in melee other than onett? I don't remember.

I do remember when melee allow tons of gold stages like japes/Brin/mute city/poke floats....etc.

 

[Espy Rose]

Yoshi's Island (Pipes) in Melee had a walk off.
Mushroom Kingdom was walk off.
Rainbow Cruise once it got to the top portion of the cycle.
Flat Zone.
Mushroom Kingdom II was also walk off.

 

[Xyro77]

Cruise was legal in melee for a while too.


I don't think I allowed walk offs in brawl mid/low tier events because we had them banned since day one. It was the status quo.

 

[Teshie U]

I've been around brawl from the beginning. DDD is the reason walk offs were banned. One grab is guaranteed stock loss. Chain grabbing is gone and thus walk offs are fine. Blast zone camping is no diff that staying near the ledge camping. Get near the foe and they must leave the blast zone. They can't roll/jump/grab but one direction and that direction is away from the blast zone.


Anyways, I'll figure something out when it comes to stages though. I guess turtle island and guar plains are most def disliked so those are out.

I had Corneria legal for like 2 years at the beginning of brawl. Stiltz won hobo 10 or 11 on that stage.

Being around longer doesn't make you right. Citing some precedent or logical basis for your actions based on experience is perfectly fine, but "I joined in 2003" doesn't mean you automatically get to be right about everything. If I find someone who has been TOing smash since 64 came out, are you going to accept any nonsense he spews out as law?

Blast zone camping devolves into "next hit wins", just like sudden death. If you approach me near the blast zone, I grab you and you die at 0%. Or you grab me and I die at 0%. If DDD, Falco and Pikachu were the sole reasons for those stages being banned, you would have allowed them in mid tier/low tier events where almost no one can chaingrab off the sides. If I camp near the ledge, you can push me off and pressure me there (especially in smash 4 or melee). Grabs for either of us would set up follow ups, but it would not be an instant kill at 0%.

At top level play, it really doesn't matter that DDD can easily kill bad characters (CG into bair spam is amazing anyway on normal stages), he would still get outboxed by the lightweight he can't CG and walkoffs would STILL be a problem in every matchup.

Show me someone reliably combating walkoff camping in any smash game. Walkoffs go against the whole reason we don't play sudden death, or 1 stock, or rock paper scissors. If I fight Gnes, I can hit him twice before he hits me twice, but by the time I've hit him 10 times, he has probably hit me 40 times. One read is not a good sample size for finding the better player.

I wasn't at HOBO 10/11, what are you saying about Corneria? I'm a little iffy about the layout/ledge in the center, but I don't see a major problem unless we find easy wall lock setups (like you said, chaingrabs are gone).

If you botch the ruleset, you will KILL OoC attendance. You need better reasons than " I'm right because I'm me".

 

[Xyro77]

Me being here in 2003 has nothing to do with DDD causing walk offs to be banned in 2008.

And I personally like Corneria but we got rid of it cause of wall infinites and MK killing mega early there.

Spoilers: I still had OOS/OOC attend my events with the rules I had. It helped set HOBO apart from the boring events.

 

[alex mora]

Are there any walk off stages in melee other than onett? I don't remember.

I do remember when melee allow tons of gold stages like japes/Brin/mute city/poke floats....etc.

Melee ALLOWED those stages. none of them are legal now. Melee allowed those stages because no one knew better at the time then everyone go together and created a community ruleset that had stages that were fair and balanced. i guess pokeballs are fine also since melee allowed them at one point also

 

[Xyro77]

Competitive melee never allowed poke balls.

And these stages were legal in 2006-2007 btw. Competitive melee had been going on since 2002. We def knew better.

When brawl came out and people left melee that is when they switched over to the ruleset you see now. New gens that remain were the ones imo that got us the rules set.

 

[Xyro77]

Nintendo of America just confirmed that smash wiiu is coming out in nov 21st.

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/10/07/super-smash-bros-on-wii-u-gets-european-release-date

 

[RunC.T.]

Arena Ferox can be good as a doubles stage. feels reminiscent of pokestadium 2 in brawl, and wasn't that legal at one point?

only wierd part of it is the tansformation with the wall in the middle of it.

 

[Fliphopper]

Comes out on a Friday again. Yikes I wonder if any progress achieved on the 3DS version carries over to WiiU.

Allan - Can you add my friend code to the OP? 4098-2847-8607

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Duck hunt dog is the new snake....

 

[KRDsonic]

Duck Hunt Dog is fun. One of my favorites so far.

I'm making an effort to try to just stick to 1-2 characters for serious matches this time around though. I feel like I used too many characters in Brawl early on and kinda got behind because of it, cause I only got decent at multiple characters but wasn't great with any particular one. I started noticing myself doing worse in tournies after I started picking up alts and stuff.

 

[Xyro77]

Use sheik PLZ.

 

[KRDsonic]

I have been. While Bowser sounds fun to main, I've been doing a LOT better with Sheik online, so I've just been focusing on her.

I'm loving her new Down B.

 

[AvoiD]

Little Mac is so much fun. I'm liking the new smash even though I had a few doubts. Wii U version will blow this out the water though. You can only be so competitive playing on 3ds. Is there any smashfests coming up before TGC? Need to get more involved in the scene.

Also Allan, you mind adding my 3DS FC to OP? 4527-8649-5149

If anyone wants to play online sometime, hmu. I'll either be distracted with this or NBA 2K15 for PS4 for awhile.