Mew2King
King of the Mews
dsf thinks marth does good vs mk
neo beat dojo in MM at apex
neo beat dojo in MM at apex
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High Level Marth vs MK Play - NEO vs Omni
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
Seriously, I'm led to believe AL is just being idiotic on purpose to get +1 post count follow-ups.
Also wow @ you guys being scared of Steel2nd's infractions. He's just further establishing the fact that he's the alpha male of this board and you people should get used to it because it has slowly settled in since middle of last year anyway. If you don't like the fact that his mini-modding from before actually MEANS something in the record books of SWF now that he is mod, too bad. Because life is the same way too. The same ambitious people will seize power to pick on the weak. Natural selection, society's way. Get at me.
This thread really wasn't necessary, it's only up because NEO wanted it to convey a simple message we've known for a while. Did the match really say much? All of you were like: "Wow, looks at those pivots, look at his spacing, those defensive tactics. Look at how keeps himself safe..."
That's all fine, but really at least I can't make out much from it. It's high level play. It looks fine, but all the underlying layers come from the two players dueling it out on a mental plane.
And this WHOLE thread and that vid really just wanted to say:
the match-up can only be won if you outplay your opponent. Marth doesn't have enough gimmicks to statistically allow him to win.
Also wow @ you guys being scared of Steel2nd's infractions. He's just further establishing the fact that he's the alpha male of this board and you people should get used to it because it has slowly settled in since middle of last year anyway. If you don't like the fact that his mini-modding from before actually MEANS something in the record books of SWF now that he is mod, too bad. Because life is the same way too. The same ambitious people will seize power to pick on the weak. Natural selection, society's way. Get at me.
This thread really wasn't necessary, it's only up because NEO wanted it to convey a simple message we've known for a while. Did the match really say much? All of you were like: "Wow, looks at those pivots, look at his spacing, those defensive tactics. Look at how keeps himself safe..."
That's all fine, but really at least I can't make out much from it. It's high level play. It looks fine, but all the underlying layers come from the two players dueling it out on a mental plane.
And this WHOLE thread and that vid really just wanted to say:
the match-up can only be won if you outplay your opponent. Marth doesn't have enough gimmicks to statistically allow him to win.
@m2k
By outplaying his opponent lol. NEO knows the match up way more than most of his competition.
Marth's tools don't allow him to beat MK, it's the player vs the player imo.
By outplaying his opponent lol. NEO knows the match up way more than most of his competition.
Marth's tools don't allow him to beat MK, it's the player vs the player imo.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
^This^
To sum it up, MK is pretty much just an upgraded Marth, which is why we lose to him pretty badly.
You guys should ask more questions rather than making bold statements. Azen's Marth does very well against my MK as well. Try to understand this:
Two players with the same intelligence level will not force this match to be in MK's favor. I believe NEO and I are equal in those terms. The difference is that NEO has ingrained the MK match-up much further to a degree that I've studied the Marth match-up. He's practiced ****loads, studied, figured out new tactics, and constantly thinks of new ideas and things to fight Metaknight. Because of this, his Marth stands out from the average Marth so Metaknight's with the same intelligence level as him (like Dojo) may be caught off guard by such distinct and unique style of play.
If I played as well as NEO, it does not mean I would flat out **** him. That's such a silly statement and you guys need to refrain from giving into the common belief in these absolutes. Now if I knew the MK vs. Marth match-up as well as he knew the Marth vs. MK match, then I believe he would be at a disadvantage simply because Metaknight is better than Marth. Regardless, top players never get flat out ***** if they understand a match-up.
Two players with the same intelligence level will not force this match to be in MK's favor. I believe NEO and I are equal in those terms. The difference is that NEO has ingrained the MK match-up much further to a degree that I've studied the Marth match-up. He's practiced ****loads, studied, figured out new tactics, and constantly thinks of new ideas and things to fight Metaknight. Because of this, his Marth stands out from the average Marth so Metaknight's with the same intelligence level as him (like Dojo) may be caught off guard by such distinct and unique style of play.
If I played as well as NEO, it does not mean I would flat out **** him. That's such a silly statement and you guys need to refrain from giving into the common belief in these absolutes. Now if I knew the MK vs. Marth match-up as well as he knew the Marth vs. MK match, then I believe he would be at a disadvantage simply because Metaknight is better than Marth. Regardless, top players never get flat out ***** if they understand a match-up.
Albert.
Smash Master
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Actually I get constantly 2 or 3 stocked by this MK I play. He's not pro but he's pretty far beyond me.
@Bengalz I consider MK marth on steriods.
I just think Marth tippers and grab game + aerial ability can easily swing the match up in marth's favor.
I don't think the match up is a poor as steel makes it out to be. Let steel tell the match up all you can do is bend over and take the *** **** from MK.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
Omni: As you stated, NEO knows and practices the matchup far more than you do. All top players that don't play MK basically have to do this.
If you and him switched matchup experience and how well you played for that specific match, you would have won by a lot. Metaknight has a great deal of advantages on Marth and if you were able to manipulate him the way he did to you during that match, it would have been ugly.
I hope it doesn't sound like I'm putting your MK down, or saying that Neo is a much better player than you or something, because I'm not. He just played too well there tbh.
If you and him switched matchup experience and how well you played for that specific match, you would have won by a lot. Metaknight has a great deal of advantages on Marth and if you were able to manipulate him the way he did to you during that match, it would have been ugly.
I hope it doesn't sound like I'm putting your MK down, or saying that Neo is a much better player than you or something, because I'm not. He just played too well there tbh.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Close but Neo vs. M2k would have been better. Omni still *****.
Almost do you seriously believe they believe everything I say?
Countless leaders from this board have described why MK ***** Marth. NEO himself believes it.
It's not just me who preaches this. But dude, I know what I'm talking about. You don't understand this game enough (or just fighting game logic in general) if you can't see how MK can easily take control and maintain it throughout the match.
Countless leaders from this board have described why MK ***** Marth. NEO himself believes it.
It's not just me who preaches this. But dude, I know what I'm talking about. You don't understand this game enough (or just fighting game logic in general) if you can't see how MK can easily take control and maintain it throughout the match.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
Steel's not making it sound as bad as you think he is (I should hope). Steel just knows the large advantage Mk, and an MK player, has over Marth. This is why he is emphasizing that you need to outplay the opposing player in this match-up to succeed.
And yes, his tipper attacks (Grab Release --> Tip w/e is ****), I think you mean aerial mobility? which is better then MK's, and a few other techs can swing the match-up if your intelligent enough to use them correctly.
Whoo, what a post. *drinks OJ*
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I just think you over estimate MK's advantages in the match up. Sorry if I don't believe everything you and neo say as gospel. Maybe I will come to the conclusion you guys have come to if I reach yall level. But for now I'll stick to my thoughts on the MK match up as I continue to learn more about the game and try to improve my marth.
@rukkio playing smarth is OBV key. I think that goes with out saying for every match up.
Albert.
Smash Master
Hey I used that grab-release to DS trick today it was sooo cool
I think the match up can now be summarized as
"get MK to around 95% without getting ***** yourself....and then land a grab"
I think the match up can now be summarized as
"get MK to around 95% without getting ***** yourself....and then land a grab"
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
or you can pivot grab all his dash approaches but what ever makes you feel cooler.
MK won't really be using any dash approaches though, at least he shouldn't. MK should have no reason to approach and can shut down any of Marth's approaches, for the most part the only time Omni dash attacked was to punish neo's landing lag.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
I know it's obvious, thats why he's emphasizing it, like I said.
He doesn't want you to follow everything they say either, they're just advising you that this is a tough match-up, and Marth is technically at a loss.
Albert.
Smash Master
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Get a percentage lead the camp and force MK to approach.
I know it's a tough match up steel makes it seem hopeless.
Yeah because of how condescending and sarcastic your post came off as.
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
Why are you so lame
seriously, grow a pair
stop thinking the entire boards are against you or something, because now you're even taking offense to basic comments
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
LoL sorry I had to laugh at that. I don't think the whole marth boards are against me I just see the same circle jerk of marth mains patting each other on the back and slamming on me every time I post. Well almost every time. But it's whatever I guess. Did you make it out of pools at apex?
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
I wouldn't even have a problem with you if you didn't take offense to every little thing people say. And now it's making me angry that you're attacking even nice people like BassClef, it's just stupid. You're taking everything far to literally. Steel is actually being nice to you, or at least trying, and you're just being a douchebag.
And now you're trying to bring my skill as a player into this, which I won't even acknowledge, but fyi, no I didn't make it out of pools.
The Marth boards is one of the nicest communities if you can debate things INTELLIGENTLY, which you refuse to do, you simply make ad hominem remarks at the end of all your posts.
You're not cool, kid.
Please stop being an arrogant person, because everyone here is trying to be nice, but it's very difficult when you always have a snide remark.
3xSwords
Smash Lord
Just a question for Neo but how successful do you find using DB to avoid MK's uair?
General questions: What are the best gimmicks on MK out of grab release? What are MK's best options if the Marth attempts to juggle him?
General questions: What are the best gimmicks on MK out of grab release? What are MK's best options if the Marth attempts to juggle him?
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Na I'm not calling your skills in question. I just asked it was type random and seems like that but that wasn't the attention of my post. I remember asking if you were at apex but I never asked how you did so I was curious anddecided to ask now.
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
Iight, my bad, I took it the wrong way.
Please, though, take into account the opinions of others. We don't all share a similar opinion for zero reason - we are a very collaborative group, which is why we have topics like this. If you want to share your opinion please do so in a manner in which we can understand where you're coming from.
Freezewish
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2008
- Messages
- 827
To answer your first question, I find the following to be nice gimmicks:
GR to Tipper'd Nair(<3 shaya), kills at 110
GR to DS as seen by Neo
GR to Tipper'd Fair to DB which Neo also does vs Omni( i'll test the % this stops working at, probably around late 20s, but I'll test when i can for accuracy)
GR to DB up version for the kill at higher %(they may DI the wrong way expecting standard DB which will kill even earlier
)GR to Usmash(not sure about this one but I'll test it out, someone please correct me if I'm wrong)
As for the 2nd question, they either time their airdodge properly, time their dair before u can u-air, or fly to the ledge to safety.
I think you should just go for the guaranteed followup of either fair or Dolphin Slash, depending on %, every time. The dair situational is cool, but it seems relatively unlikely that you will be pulling off a grab so close to the ledge against Meta Knight, so.... go for it if it happens, but don't fish for the grab because it'll just earn you way more punishment than is worth it.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Aight I see where you're coming from.
I thought the grab release to nair didn't work :shrugs:
_Kadaj_
Smash Hero
I'll watch later.
Hopefully Big Bro makes me with the vid lol
omni play me at brawl in the street im trying to find a ride now
Hopefully Big Bro makes me
with the vid lolomni play me at brawl in the street im trying to find a ride now
En.Ee.Oh
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 2,527
DS and full jump n-air for the kill
dash attack, f-air, and side-b for damage builders
and mk's best option imo if marth attempts to juggle him and is good at reading air dodges
is to tornado/down-b away from marth and reset the fight, or glide to the ledge to reset the fight
En.Ee.Oh
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 2,527
DSF doesn't even play the match up correctly from what i saw vs roy_r
and i beat dojo because:
a. he blocks too much so he gets grabbed, like omni
b. he rolls too much so he gets grabbed, like omni
c. he tried dash attacking and got grabbed, like omni LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
and he let me fight him on fd >:D!
those are 3 habits that can easily be eliminated and leave me up ****s creek T_T
you need to roll into me more jason buahahaha
Dude, Neo, you forgot the most important reason...
d. my angry game face scares the crap out of him and he can't focus.
d. my angry game face scares the crap out of him and he can't focus.
People are taking this match way too seriously. I wasn't even aware we were being recorded; just thought we were putting on a show for the people in the livestream in a fun friendly. Me and NEO go 50/50 in these things all day.
Was the match before this one where I won not recorded or just purposely omitted?
Was the match before this one where I won not recorded or just purposely omitted?
En.Ee.Oh
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 2,527
it wasn't recorded
that one was pretty boring too steve it was like 7:40 rofl
the whole point of the video is to show marth vs mk where marth is stopping the options mk has that most marth players have either deemed "broken" or "unavoidable" now the discussion is turning into "marth has to outplay mk"
well no **** sherlock im pretty sure we ALL already knew that
wasteful posts
that one was pretty boring too steve it was like 7:40 rofl
the whole point of the video is to show marth vs mk where marth is stopping the options mk has that most marth players have either deemed "broken" or "unavoidable" now the discussion is turning into "marth has to outplay mk"
well no **** sherlock im pretty sure we ALL already knew that
wasteful posts
When was the last time a Marth beat your Meta Knight?
When was the last time your Marth beat a top Meta Knight?
Mew2King should be the new marth sage, tbh. He likes rolling in to taunt Neo a lot (
). Kinda like how EL does to Pierce.But this topic is silly. The match up is silly.
The more meta gets grabbed the more he gets *****.
But, Meta Knight can avoid the grab.
Hallelujah. No tier defining **** today good sirs.
Lmao, that's right. I seriously lose track of time in our matches.
No johns to everyone except NEO. Step it up and be better or be satisfied losing with your mediocre character occasionally receiving confidence boost from taking a match here or there in matches that aren't in your favor. *buuuuuuurn for no reaaaason*
No johns to everyone except NEO. Step it up and be better or be satisfied losing with your mediocre character occasionally receiving confidence boost from taking a match here or there in matches that aren't in your favor. *buuuuuuurn for no reaaaason*
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
Perfect marth vs perfect MK anywone? I'm just glad that humans are well...human, otherwise ya'll know the rest.
*drops brawl like a greased up baby and picks up TvC*
@anyone who's with me:
We shall play, i shall win, and it shall be Viewtiful ^_^
*drops brawl like a greased up baby and picks up TvC*
@anyone who's with me:
We shall play, i shall win, and it shall be Viewtiful ^_^
En.Ee.Oh
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 2,527
i was whooping his *** at apex, he got luck in match 3When was the last time a Marth beat your Meta Knight?
When was the last time your Marth beat a top Meta Knight?
Mew2King should be the new marth sage, tbh. He likes rolling in to taunt Neo a lot (
But this topic is silly. The match up is silly.
The more meta gets grabbed the more he gets *****.
But, Meta Knight can avoid the grab.
Hallelujah. No tier defining **** today good sirs.
REMEMBER THAT **** JASON? LUCKY *****
actually both of your wins were luck, should've 2-0'd your a$$
lmfao my win was luck too tho xD
BTW I can't wait to see what happens when the MK's start actually growing in this match-up because atm, EVERY MK is severely lacking in tool useage vs Marth int he match.. M2K included, he doesn't even down tilt (newb)