Hero is Banned in South Australian Tournaments

Hero_Banned_Australia.jpg


South Australia Smash Central has officially banned Hero from their Super Smash Bros. Ultimate tournaments.

Hero has garnered a lot of controversy ever since his moveset was first revealed on July 30th, 2019. Much of the disdain for Hero comes from his down special, Command Selection, and his unique ability to get critical hits on his smash attacks, both of which introduce a large number of random elements. There are people who feel this delegitimizes competition because it puts too much emphasis on luck. However, it can also be argued that these random elements bring strategic depth to Hero and aren’t inherently anti-competitive. Many players also feel a character should be proven to be extremely dominant before we even consider banning them.

Either way, South Australia Smash Central has made the decision to ban the character. You can read their full reasoning for the ban right here: https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqvsvl

Author’s Note: Personally, I think it's way too early to ban Hero, I don't believe the RNG is a dealbreaker and I'd like to see how he develops in the meta before taking any stances on whether he should be buffed, nerfed, banned, whatever. What do you think of this though? Please let us know in the comments below!
 
Mitchell "ZeroSoul" Brenkus

Comments

#2
Well, this is an interesting development

Apparently the South Australia scene is really small, so it has more to do with them not wanting it. I don't know how small South Australia is, but if it's like, just a dozen people or so, I think they can ban whatever they want

edit: now to have my inbox flooded
 
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#3
This is in large part the correct opinion. Now if only the competitive amiibo meta would try out a Bowser ban...
 
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#4
Someone should make a mod that cuts out his current Down B entirely and just has it cast the same single spell every time. Such as Sizz, Sizzle, or Bang since they're the most straight forward and least broken. Of course, considering how he's already a better Robin with more options from specials alone... Simply removing Down B wouldn't be detrimental to Hero's kit. Since Down B is clearly a "LMAO FOR FUN RANDUMBNESS ECKS DEE!!!" type of special to begin with.
 
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#5
Well, this is an interesting development

Apparently the South Australia scene is really small, so it has more to do with them not wanting it. I don't know how small South Australia is, but if it's like, just a dozen people or so, I think they can ban whatever they want

edit: now to have my inbox flooded
The SA scene is around 50-60 people in total and an overwhelming majority agreed on the ban.
 
#6
The SA scene is around 50-60 people in total and an overwhelming majority agreed on the ban.
Yeah I mean if 50-60 people don't want to play with the character and are that active about it, I think it's fine.

note: I'm not stating I agree with this ban (because I absolutely do not), just that if people want something, that's what they want. It was kinda similar to reading Jugglerob's decision with The Big House on why to ban wobbling and his last reason was the most convincing to me. "Because people want it".
 
#7
I think this is an over-reaction. When Hero uses Command Selection, he's immobile. He can cancel this by using what's been selected with standard or special neutrals, blocking, dodging, rolling, jumping, or air-dodging. If Hero had control over what he wanted, rather than relying on randomness, then maybe the people of South Australia would have an argument. Between a revolver with all chambers filled versus a revolver with one chamber filled, which one would you fear most?
 
#9
The character hasn't even been out for a month yet, and he hasn't been dominating the meta, unless you count cheesing a couple games as dominating the meta. This ban is pretty rash to be making so soon after he's been released. The parts of the character people call broken or ban-worthy is inconsistent, and can't be relied on consistently to win matches. He's a character with strengths, but obvious flaws, such as slow frame data on his neutrals and having to manage his MP to keep moves/recovery from becoming unusable, he's a character all about setup that you have to be aggressive against. Once time passes and people understand the character, we're going to have a K. Rool situation, where he jumps from being considered top tier to bottom/middle.

I just hope no other regions jump the gun and ban Hero as-is, unless he starts consistently winning games, stealing sets and tournaments, and over-centralizes the player base.
 
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#16
The character hasn't even been out for a month yet, and he hasn't been dominating the meta, unless you count cheesing a couple games as dominating the meta. This ban is pretty rash to be making so soon after he's been released. The parts of the character people call broken or ban-worthy is inconsistent, and can't be relied on consistently to win matches. He's a character with strengths, but obvious flaws, such as slow frame data on his neutrals and having to manage his MP to keep moves/recovery from becoming unusable, he's a character all about setup that you have to be aggressive against. Once time passes and people understand the character, we're going to have a K. Rool situation, where he jumps from being considered top tier to bottom/middle.

I just hope no other regions jump the gun and ban Hero as-is, unless he starts consistently winning games, stealing sets and tournaments, and over-centralizes the player base.
That isn't the argument. From the TwitLonger:
We want to emphasise that this ban is not because hero is too strong, but because he is anti-competitive.
They don't think he is broken; they are banning him because he is too random.
Surprised they didn't mention the language barrier issue, but that's just the icing on the cake, not the crux of the argument.
 
#17
That isn't the argument. From the TwitLonger:

They don't think he is broken; they are banning him because he is too random.
Surprised they didn't mention the language barrier issue, but that's just the icing on the cake, not the crux of the argument.
I see! Sorry, I read the article but hadn't read the twitlonger, I assumed it was the usual arguments at work here. I still stand by the point that it's far too early to be banning him. If they think the character's anti-competitive because of the RNG involved with his kit, why not put that to the test and see how he stands in the meta over a long period of time, instead of banning him three weeks after his debut? It's far too early to be jumping to these kinds of conclusions.

By the by, by "language barrier", I assume you mean the different spell names in different territories/languages? Just making sure we're on the same page here.
 
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#18
Most of the points in this announcement like kamikaze, zoom and psych up smash shield breaks having no counterplay are false. Down+B's RNG requiring no skill is debatable since you have to read your choices, evaluate frames/range while paying attention to MP management.

For Hero to be "unreasonable in a competitive setting" he must be able to significantly disrupt play. He doesn't; he can't freeze the game, he can't stall the match until time runs out.
 
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#20
As a Palutena main, Hero is easier to beat if you play aggressively. I usually start the match with Explosive Flame and Nair. This gives him less time to select a command from his down-b, as well as leaving him vulnerable. His neutrals also come out more slowly than other swordfighters. Banning him this quickly just because he's random, as well as ignoring results is pretty stupid in my honest opinion.

Edit: thanks for blowing up my inbox :)
 
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#21
"waiting to see how his meta develops" is complete bs.
you dont need to wait to see because its already obvious there is no counter play to a magic burst or kamikaze that he topdecks.
inb4 'you can shield magic burst' yes ok you have to look at his menu and then react and be in the right scenario. theres no REAL counterplay because his down b options are all stupidly op and balanced by being random so he cant use them whenever he pleases. you cant play around 10 different broken specials all at once.
inb4 'just rush him down' only certain characters can do that and even if he only gets the opportunity 5 or so times in a match to down b, its still too much and theres still times when he'll survive for no reason cause of a zoom or some****.

ban him now because otherwise in 2 months people will say 'ive mained hero for 3 months and now youre banning my main?' like people used for bayonetta.
 
#23
I see! Sorry, I read the article but hadn't read the twitlonger, I assumed it was the usual arguments at work here. I still stand by the point that it's far too early to be banning him. If they think the character's anti-competitive because of the RNG involved with his kit, why not put that to the test and see how he stands in the meta over a long period of time, instead of banning him three weeks after his debut? It's far too early to be jumping to these kinds of conclusions.

By the by, by "language barrier", I assume you mean the different spell names in different territories/languages? Just making sure we're on the same page here.
It's fine, happens to all of us.
But I think it's better to ban sooner rather than later. After all, if we ban now, most Hero mains won't have put serious time into the character. But if we ban later, you're telling people who might have put months into their character either play someone else or you can't play competitive.
And yeah, that's what I meant regarding the "language barrier."
 
#24
Hero is fine. Most of his specials can be blocked, reflected, absorbed. There's not need to play around 10 distinct specials all at once, only play around the one that can kill you in the situation you are currently in, e.g. Magic Burst edge guard.

There are plenty of guarantees in the game that get kills with combo confirms like Joker's uair drag-down smashes.

Zoom is just a different, very good, recovery. All characters have recoveries and some have better ones. The argument that some character would not have survived being off stage some distance if it weren't for their recovery option is applicable to every character.

As for losing to rush-down, and only certain characters being able to do that, well isn't that the point? Characters should have the upper hand over some and be the under dog versus others; this is the metagame clock that is supposed to keep these kind of games from having an unanswerable winning strategy.

As for bans, I also think competitive bans should be results driven.
 
#25
Hero is fine. Most of his specials can be blocked, reflected, absorbed. There's not need to play around 10 distinct specials all at once, only play around the one that can kill you in the situation you are currently in, e.g. Magic Burst edge guard.

There are plenty of guarantees in the game that get kills with combo confirms like Joker's uair drag-down smashes.

Zoom is just a different, very good, recovery. All characters have recoveries and some have better ones. The argument that some character would not have survived being off stage some distance if it weren't for their recovery option is applicable to every character.

As for losing to rush-down, and only certain characters being able to do that, well isn't that the point? Characters should have the upper hand over some and be the under dog versus others; this is the metagame clock that is supposed to keep these kind of games from having an unanswerable winning strategy.

As for bans, I also think competitive bans should be results driven.
1st part is a lol and you missed my point completely
zoom is random. you go for the edgeguard/ledgetrap because statistically you should, then he RANDOMLY gets to the middle for free. its not that the recovery is too good, its that its RANDOM.
my point on the rush down is that, this is a local scene banning him. the community has like 100 players, 'just pick up a counter' isnt going to work if players who main zoners are getting oppressed by heros. their scene will die. same thing happened to brawl in australia actually. Everyone who didnt main meta knight eventually just quit, yes competitivly and meta speaking they shouldve played him. But it was just a local scene and they didnt want to.

the results part isnt relevant because they arent banning him for being good, so why does he need results to prove hes too good.
Any low level guy that knows they have no chance to beat a topplayer could use hero vs him and give himself a better chance. but he'd still place **** even if he beat him, well depending on his rng of course smile.
 
#26
"Anti-Competitive" is not Hero, plain and simple. Their argument is not well thought out at all.

I already addressed this in the previous Hero discussion, but I'll take another stab at it. Something cannot be inherently anti-competitive just by having some elements that don't demand skill. To be anti-competitive is to completely prevent or at least heavily detract from the ability to compete. The problem with their argument is that these guy just assume because Hero's options and results are random at times that the player using that Hero didn't apply any skill. Which is completely false. They chose that spell out of 4 possible options. They put themselves into the proper position to select and cast that spell. They landed that Smash attack; Whether or not it crits does not detract from that skill.

Not gonna make any more of fuss on this. The argument is straight up WRONG. Hero is NOT anti-competitive.
 
#27
South Australia made the smart choice.

Rng is baked waaay too much into his moveset to be compatible with competitive play.
 
#28
South Australia made the smart choice.

Rng is baked waaay too much into his moveset to be compatible with competitive play.
And that's why Faust of Guilty Gear is banned from competitive play. Dude can just chuck random things out any time and the opponent just has to deal with it.

...

Oh wait...
 
#30
Some of the spells from the Command list are super strong, but you still need skill to use them and they are not really that hard to avoid as people think. The only unfair thing about Hero is the random "critical smash attack".
 
#31
Guilty gear =/= smash.
It's the concept that's at the forefront of the discussion, not the game.

The core issue behind this debate is RNG, which is a common universal game mechanic. There's no such thing as FG-specific RNG.

And that's where so many people fail at this argument. They should be looking closely at Hero's moves, not the fact that most of them appear out of a randomized menu. RNG is not inherently bad. It's just a mechanic. What matters is what results from that RNG. Is the game randomly deciding the winner of the match without the input of the players? Is the game randomly disabling somebody's buttons? Is the game randomly changing a player's character? Are most of Hero's randomly provided options so overpowering that he's automatically at a major advantage just by pressing Down B?

Or is the game just providing a person 4 options, and it's up to that player to utilize an option in the best possible way?

As for critical hits, does not the player still need to land the smash attack? Should not the opponent expect punishment if they get hit? Does it really matter that the reward increases at random? The tests of skill still goes on. The only unfortunate thing that happens is somebody may get extra-salty if a crit occurs and they die sooner than they hope.
 
#32
Some of the spells from the Command list are super strong, but you still need skill to use them and they are not really that hard to avoid as people think. The only unfair thing about Hero is the random "critical smash attack".
It takes skill to use magic burst!? I am so skilled! XD Some of them yes. Some of them no.
 
#33
Guilty gear =/= smash.
The concept is the same. People in other fighters handle RNG just fine but it happens in Smash on a single character who isn't even GOOD to begin with and there's instant call for bans even before the character was officially released. Even with a couple weeks with the character and all the evidence the character is competitively bad at the moment and bans are still being demanded.|

Says a lot about the mentalities of the player bases.

It takes skill to use magic burst!? I am so skilled! XD Some of them yes. Some of them no.
It takes skill to not only realize you have Magic Burst in a place you can use it properly, also manage MP so Magic Burst isn't wasted when you're MP is low, and also being able to react fast enough to select it at a crucial moment before your opponent knocks you out of the menu. The RNG part is just being FORTUNATE to get the move at all. If he had access to the move 100% of the time and could just spam it for days, yeah. It'd require no skill. The decision making, situational awareness and reaction required for the character to perform at even a consistent level is astounding.
 
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D
#36
Hero is not that strong and banning him is ****ing stupid. His Normals are so slow, and his recovery so terrible, he actually gets beaten out by a number of characters pretty bad. Not only that, but some of his hard counters are lower tier characters like Zelda, which great for the scene overall.

So great going you pansies, rather than adapting and letting the meta develop, you’re just gonna shut down any form of progression because you can’t deal with a gimmicky inconsistent RNG character with bad normals and a worthless super gimpable recovery.

I don’t like this development cause it sets a bad precedent. It gives justification for other competitive communities to follow suit. If this becomes widespread, idc what anyone says, the competitive Smash community is officially a ****ing joke. Especially since other fighting games have dealt with RNG characters like Zappa in GG, and no one threw the same level of ***** fit we’re seeng with Hero in Smash.
 
#38
I guess this character should be renamed "Villain" in the Australian version of the game.

Banning this guy within less than a month really shows how close minded and unwilling to learn these players are. This ban happy behavior really sets a bad precedent.
 
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#39
A shame that a region banned Hero within a month but it would be interesting to see how a region's meta develop without him (I don't know how prominent the Southern Australia scene is but still do wish them the best). I don't think however the bigger regions (US, EU, JP) won't ban him sooner or later. I mean we stomached S4 Bayo which warped the meta of S4 (there definitely was talent behind Bayo players but you can't argue that there was a tremendous amount of power behind S4 Bayo to boot).
 
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