HeartGold/SoulSilver - Competitive Metagame Discussion

[Circa]

HeartSilver is hippie, SoulGold is pure funk soul.

The Pokemon titles are safe.

SoulGold would have sold me in a ****ing instant. HeartGold is pretty good, but SoulGold is, pardon the pun, absolutely golden for a game name.

 

[supermarth64]

Too bad Heal Bell Vaporeon would have moveslot issues. Wish, Protect, Heal Bell, and Surf makes it so it's not a Gyarados counter, and having only HP Electric is way too weak. You're basically stuck running Wish/Protect or Heal Bell.

Pain Split Rotom would be intresting, but it's also hard to find a moveslot. Electric/Ghost STABs are incredibly useful, and all of the special attacks are good. It would most likely replace the status move slot.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

All I see in OU is that Rotom will be even more annoying.

 

[CRASHiC]

If Rotom becomes a major problem, metagross will start running Gravity.
Is there any chance that Headsmash Aggron might make it into OU?

Headsmash choice banned, with stealth rocks in place for those boarderline, OHKOs
Aerodactyl
kazam
Azelf
Blissy
Celebi
Dragonite
Dusknoir
Electrive
Gengar
Gyaradoes
Heracross
Infernape
Jolteon
Kingdra
Latias
Mamoswine
Ninjask
P-Z
Rotom
Salamence
Scizor
Snorlax
Smeargal
Tentacruel
Togekiss
Vaporeon
Weavile
Zapdose


Takes off more than half damage, no other effects added.
Breloom
Cresselia
Gliscor
Skarmory
Suicune
Tyranitar
Heatran

That's about 3/4th of the OU
both of these list assume Max HP and DEF EVs on the part of the pokemon getting hit. Meanwhile, Pursuit is only going to do about 7 percent considering the attack has an attack stat of 478.
Of course, a great deal of those pokemon would never switch in on Aggron. Most likely, he can expect switches in on Flygon, Metagross, Swampert, and Rhyperior
However, even those 4 with all defense evs and hp evs still manages to come up landing between 1/4th damage and nearly one half of their total hp, no stealth rock or spikes included.

Then there is Armaldo with curse. In sandstorm, with neutral EVs it will have a 342 special defense stat, with a potential 388. This plus a great HP stat and defense stat means he walls everything.Thoughts?

Also, about Tail wind, the main use I see is doubling the speed on someone who is choice banned, and I see Aerodactyl or Suicine being the most likely users to set it up. For instance, I use tail wind, next turn I switch in Aggron. I use headsmash, you switch in Metagross during. Using the most used set, you will take half damage, no spikes or rock included. Because of tail wind, I'm faster than you and headsmash you again for the KO.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

If Rotom becomes a major problem, metagross will start running Gravity.
Is there any chance that Headsmash Aggron might make it into OU?

Headsmash choice banned, with stealth rocks in place for those boarderline, OHKOs
Aerodactyl
kazam
Azelf
Blissy
Celebi
Dragonite
Dusknoir
Electrive
Gengar
Gyaradoes
Heracross
Infernape
Jolteon
Kingdra
Latias
Mamoswine
Ninjask
P-Z
Rotom
Salamence
Scizor
Snorlax
Smeargal
Tentacruel
Togekiss
Vaporeon
Weavile
Zapdose


Takes off more than half damage, no other effects added.
Breloom
Cresselia
Gliscor
Skarmory
Suicune
Tyranitar
Heatran

That's about 3/4th of the OU
both of these list assume Max HP and DEF EVs on the part of the pokemon getting hit. Meanwhile, Pursuit is only going to do about 7 percent considering the attack has an attack stat of 478.
Of course, a great deal of those pokemon would never switch in on Aggron. Most likely, he can expect switches in on Flygon, Metagross, Swampert, and Rhyperior
However, even those 4 with all defense evs and hp evs still manages to come up landing between 1/4th damage and nearly one half of their total hp, no stealth rock or spikes included.

Then there is Armaldo with curse. In sandstorm, with neutral EVs it will have a 342 special defense stat, with a potential 388. This plus a great HP stat and defense stat means he walls everything.Thoughts?

Also, about Tail wind, the main use I see is doubling the speed on someone who is choice banned, and I see Aerodactyl or Suicine being the most likely users to set it up. For instance, I use tail wind, next turn I switch in Aggron. I use headsmash, you switch in Metagross during. Using the most used set, you will take half damage, no spikes or rock included. Because of tail wind, I'm faster than you and headsmash you again for the KO.

The problems with Aggron is that he is SLOW, and has a 4x weakness to earthquake.

Than again, I assume no one would be using earthquake against a pokemon that uses tailwind so Aggron might have a good chance of surviving the switch in...Which is also a concern I have.

 

[momochuu]

Yeah, if Aggron didn't have 4x weaknesses to fighting and ground, and a 2x to water, I can see him being good. But that's kinda asking for a lot.

 

[CRASHiC]

Aggron can safely switch in on:
Alakazam
Azelf
Blisey
Celebi
Cresselia
Dusknoir
Forretress
Most Gengars
Jolteon
Ninjask

Here I see Agron's problem. It will definitely have to rely on Tail Wind.

Armaldo is still promising though.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Cradily as well don't you think? He has better starting defenses than Armaldo, and also packs Curse.

-Terywj

 

[Oracle]

CB aggron is just too slow to do anything effectively. Also he can't safely switch in on ninjask because he'll just use his slow to set up speed with subs and protects.

Also you relalize that Curse armaldo is basically curse Regirock/curse t-tar with worse defensive stats, slightly better offensive stats, and more weaknesses, right?

 

[Deleted member]

IMO aggron has a very real shot at OU. just beware superpower and the like.

 

[supermarth64]

Aggron can safely switch in on:
Alakazam
Azelf
Blisey
Celebi
Cresselia
Dusknoir
Forretress
Most Gengars
Jolteon
Ninjask

Here I see Agron's problem. It will definitely have to rely on Tail Wind.

Armaldo is still promising though.

Assuming 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 doesn't really matter

Alakazam: OHKOes with Focus Blast (2nd most common move after Psychic)
Azelf: 2HKOes with Grass Knot / Fire Blast, OHKOes after a NP.
Blissey: Lol like Blissey would want to stay in.
Celebi: Fine, just watch out for Earth Power (13.1% in August), which OHKOes Aggron.
Cresselia: Cress can set up a Reflect before Aggron can Head Smash (outspeeds even if you run max speed; you would have to run Jolly), meaning that it's a 4-5HKO. It can then Twave and outstall Head Smashes.
Dusknoir: Watch out for Wow on the way in.
Forretress: Gets 2HKOed by Head Smash, so all it can do is set up another layer of either entry hazard.
Gengar: OHKOes with Focus Blast (3rd most common move after Shadow Ball and Tbolt).
Jolteon: Can't switch in on Specs Tbolt, Specs HP Grass, or regular Tbolt.
Ninjask: Uh... it can sub to stall out out of Head Smash? No idea actually, but I guess it would BP out after that.

Tailwind is still quite gimmicky.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

What is the point of the BL tier?

BL pokemon are too strong to compete in UU tournaments...right?

...Then wouldn't it be better if they were just put in OU, but at the bottom of the OU tier?

 

[CRASHiC]

Focus blast should not be an issue, unless you get predictable.
With tail wind, Cressalia does not outrun Aggron, even with no sped EVs on him and max on her.
With tail wind in place, Aggron outruns even Aerodactyl,
OU Pokemon that can use tail wind:
Suicune
Togekiss
Flygon
Skarmory
Latias
Gliscor
Dragonite
Aerodactyl
Zapdos
Salamence
Scizor

Even more, in uber:
Giratina
Ho-oh
Mew
Rayquaza
Shaymin-S
Latios

If any of these pokemon run support, Tail Wind could be a viable option amongst them.

Even then, some pokemon receive a nice boost for using tail wind themselves, namely Togekiss.

 

[Wave⁂]

OU is for the 50 most used Pokemon that are deemed not over-centralizing (Ubers).

 

[CRASHiC]

But with how speed based everything in Ubers is, imagine what a tail wind raquaza could do. No choice scarf pokemon could touch it.
In Ubers, I see it more as a set up to sweep.
In OU, I see it more as a supportive move.

 

[Spire]

And suddenly, you all began to speak a different language.

 

[CRASHiC]

CB aggron is just too slow to do anything effectively. Also he can't safely switch in on ninjask because he'll just use his slow to set up speed with subs and protects.

Also you relalize that Curse armaldo is basically curse Regirock/curse t-tar with worse defensive stats, slightly better offensive stats, and more weaknesses, right?

Battle Armor boy. No critical hits.

 

[peregrine monkey]

I think Baton Passing Aggron some speed would work much better than the very gimmicky Tailwind. The BP'd speed would stay there, unlike Tailwind. You could pair him with Gliscor, who conviniently resists both of his 4x weaknesses and can BP Swords Dance and Rock Polish. Or Ninjask who could easily pass him speed and attack.

In fact, a BP team based around Head Smash Aggron could pretty awesome. I think he has a shot at at least BL.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I think Baton Passing Aggron some speed would work much better than the very gimmicky Tailwind. The BP'd speed would stay there, unlike Tailwind. You could pair him with Gliscor, who conviniently resists both of his 4x weaknesses and can BP Swords Dance and Rock Polish. Or Ninjask who could easily pass him speed and attack.

In fact, a BP team based around Head Smash Aggron could pretty awesome. I think he has a shot at at least BL.

I like the idea of BP Gliscor and Rock Head Smash Aggron...

2 of my favourite Pokemon on the same team...

Gotta through a tyranitar in that for some sand storm...

 

[Deception]

Aggron has about 8 resistances, so he could easily switch on some pokes and use rock polish then Head Smash.

 

[Wave⁂]

The problem with basing a team around Head Smash Aggron (hell, any single Pokemon) is that one missed Head Smash can virtually mean losing the game.

 

[supermarth64]

Agreeing with annoying. We all know how much Stone Miss is an awesome move, and Head Smash has the same accuracy. Threatening, but gets ruined by hax.

 

[NJzFinest]

so everyone will overstate its effectiveness because they don't know how to fight it until they ban it?

"You counter Garchomp by hitting it"

lmao

 

[CRASHiC]

So I looked a little bit farther into the Armaldo curse sandstorm stall set actually has better type matchups, lacking the painful weaknesses to both Fighting and Earth, as well as avoiding the dredded critical hit that could destroy Regirock. Its offensive stat is also better, as is its move pool. After looking at all the numbers, I say that Armaldo can serve as a better curse pokemon than Regirock.

 

[RuNNing Riot]

Agreeing with annoying. We all know how much Stone Miss is an awesome move, and Head Smash has the same accuracy. Threatening, but gets ruined by hax.

I think more to the point is if it's worth the loss of increased critical hit chance. Considering that picking a move for that reason alone is shunned somewhat in competitive play (with the exception of any Pokemon with Sniper, obviously), then it probably is. I don't think the boost is really going to get him into OU, though, IMO.

EDIT: And apparently Graveler gets 'Cure'. Must be a new move - I've never heard of it! :D

 

[Platypus]

Oh, the humor. I'm sure it has nothing to do with Gyro Ball.

I noticed that Purugly got Super Fang, which is something about which no one else seems to care. It might give the fat kitty something to do against Skarmory and Kyogre, though.

 

[CT Chia]

how much does tailwind incr ur teams speed by? +1? i also forget how many turns its for, 3? 5?

 

[CRASHiC]

It doubles your teams speed. It is not counted as a stat booster, it just straight up doubles its speed, including any boost you already have.
It last 3 turns.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Oh, the humor. I'm sure it has nothing to do with Gyro Ball.

I noticed that Purugly got Super Fang, which is something about which no one else seems to care. It might give the fat kitty something to do against Skarmory and Kyogre, though.

Purugly is just another one of those lame NU / UU Pokemon that got Superfang and can now actually hurt something. >.>

-Terywj

 

[NJzFinest]

Superfang + Crobat = gay, especially when you're someone like me and had no clue HS/SS was being implemented in shoddybattle now -_-

 

[D13]

Just for everyone's information, the Smogon shoddy battle server has been updated with the move changes from HG/SS.

wee

 

[Terywj [태리]]

That was already said, but it's all good.

-Terywj

 

[momochuu]

I'm definitely finding room for Crobat on my Hail team.


Can we trade over Pokemon to HG/SS for moves now?

 

[supermarth64]

Yea, it's fine. Some people were using them the moment HG/SS came out.

 

[momochuu]

**** yeah. Now to find someone to Pokesav me a Super Fang Crobat/Walrein.

 

[ss118]

I want to try Pain Split Rotom-a. **** you *****

 

[NJzFinest]

**** yeah. Now to find someone to Pokesav me a Super Fang Crobat/Walrein.

Sup? lol


Had no clue Walrein got superfang too O_o. I see why people are saying hail stall + indirect damage support is going to reach a new level of annoyance.

 

[momochuu]

I don't even think Crobat has room on a Hail stall team. Unless I took out Dusknoir for Rotom. I REALLY wish you could use the appliances on wifi. Makes me mad just thinking about it. >_>

I will not have room for Crobat on my Platinum Hail team. D: Shoddy I will though. No need for Heatran.

 

[NJzFinest]

Oh, btw, the "Sup? lol" was supposed to imply that I can pokesav4u

 

[TLMSheikant]

Oh great, the Rotoms got Pain Split >_>. Scizor with bug bite :O, too bad I prefer CB scizor. SD scizor is meh.