Halo Game - Ovah

[BSL]

Not only does it make you hard to read, but it makes it hard to find out your stances. You can't pressure people with pictures. You can't help out with scumhunting with pictures. All you can do is be annoying.

If I am ever in a game with moriarty, I will push your D1 lynch like I did in this game. Unless of course someone comes out and says, "hey, I'm scum, lynch me."

 

[Swiss]

if kevinm and i ever hydra as moriarty again we are going to communicate with picture again just like we did in this game and just like we did in the game before this. our method of communication has no bearing on our alignment, and i know that we are two of the best players on this website and i know that our hydra only adds to and doesnt subtract from that. it makes us hard to read... get over it. if u think im wrong i would love to discuss it with u. i know im not the only one to feel like this because i talked to a few non-player dgamers about it. i do regret my inactivity as the day progressed but i dont regret sticking to the plan.

You can't be that good if you screwed up a cop role D1. Part of being a good player is playing to your win con, this includes not 'making a point' that just because a player doesn't use words doesn't mean they're useless. You placed making your point above town's wincon. I do not know if the general consensus is that you are two of the best or not - but I know I'm pretty decent and partly won this game thanks to you.

You lost town what you thought was a valuable role, played disrespectfully to the game mod SwordsR and I for one wouldn't let you play in any of my games like this.

No respect for you whatsoever.

/Waits for old timer circle jerks to hate me ^_^

 

[Overswarm]

if kevinm and i ever hydra as moriarty again we are going to communicate with picture again just like we did in this game and just like we did in the game before this. our method of communication has no bearing on our alignment, and i know that we are two of the best players on this website and i know that our hydra only adds to and doesnt subtract from that. it makes us hard to read... get over it. if u think im wrong i would love to discuss it with u. i know im not the only one to feel like this because i talked to a few non-player dgamers about it. i do regret my inactivity as the day progressed but i dont regret sticking to the plan.

I will happily get you lynched D1. Again. Because posting like that is basically a constant setup for a self-lynch, and it's always in town's best interest on D1. We lynch the useless player and they could or could not be scum. Easy pickin's.

 

[Overswarm]

You can't be that good if you screwed up a cop role D1. Part of being a good player is playing to your win con, this includes not 'making a point' that just because a player doesn't use words doesn't mean they're useless. You placed making your point above town's wincon. I do not know if the general consensus is that you are two of the best or not - but I know I'm pretty decent and partly won this game thanks to you.

You lost town what you thought was a valuable role, played disrespectfully to the game mod SwordsR and I for one wouldn't let you play in any of my games like this.

No respect for you whatsoever.

/Waits for old timer circle jerks to hate me ^_^

Psh, Swiss is the new KevinM. Always scum. :B

I'm not the new Tom though, cuz Tom's all like "logical argument" and I'm all like "puppet strings".

 

[Swiss]

:3

I got a town role once!

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I don't think (and hope) that Tom wasn't trying to turn this thread into a "get at me about whether or not Moriarity's playstyle is legit or not" discussion thread.

And I certainly don't think he was trying to bait personal attacks. For example Swiss "no respect for you whatsoever" is kind of pushing it. Toss out a "no respect for your playstyle" instead for people to chew on and maybe I'd sit back and eat some popcorn but let's just stop that kind of talk before this gets elevated to a point it doesn't need to be at.

Moriarity's play is certainly questionable at best and I've no doubt that Tom has both the interest and the capacity to discuss the legitimacy of that playstyle, in a quite civil manner, on a more one on one basis with anyone who's willing. I'm entertaining the possibility of having that discussion myself because I'm interested in what Tom has to say to defend it (or KevinM, since neither of them did in Halo when FZ prompted them to show what they could do etc. but activity johns ahoy), but I'll just have to get around to convincing myself to sign on AIM again for the first time in like forever.

Point is, let's not act like personal attacks are being baited, nor bait further personal attacks by offering divisive comments like "lol inb4oldtimerrage" and the like.

And at the very least lets not derail a completed mafia game thread.

 

[Swiss]

Yeah sorry about that. I'm often lacking in the 'tactful' department.

I think Moriarty's play style was poor. I have no idea about the guys themselves.

 

[Tom]

i really must assume swordsrbroken knew how moriarty would post, considering this was not his first game. i would contest what BSL, OS, and Swiss responded frozen is right that i was alluding to more direct conversation than forum argument that can last forever. im sure you could catch me on AIM over the next week if you are interested.

 

[BSL]

bah, i wont pursue it. i said everything about it that i can think of. if you want to contest, send me a PM. i dont have, nor will i get, aim.

just be prepared to be pushed as a D1 lynch if you do it again.

 

[Swiss]

I'm on AIM but you'd hate talking to me.

I'll twist your words around and get you lynched :3

 

[X1-12]

I'm on AIM but you'd hate talking to me.

I'll twist your words around and get you lynched :3

What words

 

[BSL]

looooooooooool

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Knowing what I know now I'd still lynch moriarity d1. Got nothing to do with the players. He was a severe detriment to town.

cuz if I knew who was scum we could survive a mis lynch once no problem, so we'd still win

 

[Tom]

knowing now that he is town you would still lynch him

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Well I'm kidding, but it's because if i knew who was scum we could survive one mis lynch, lol

 

[Tom]

yea ok im p sure you just completely changed your point but thats fine with me

 

[Xivii]

@Vandy: lol my bad. And yeah I need to learn, as well as the other town in this game to read more into PR flips. I totally didn't catch that crumb, and I read Swiss Vs you with extensively. That's definitely something I need to work on.

@Quicktopic: Oh lordy. Too much to comment on haha.

@Tom: Mori's play beneficial? Pics or it didn't happen

 

[Tom]

oh u!

 

[DtJ S2n]

Well Tom, I don't like the idea but I can safely say that a couple of those pictures really made my day when I saw them. Especially when probably OS was asking for a modkill on you, and Swords responded with a Deal With It.

I like the idea of a pictures only game.

Also if I ever play with Moriarty again I'll post pictures only with you too. It'll be a fun time.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

I loved the whole pics thing ^_^. I didn't wanna waste a lynch on you (that's why I wanted to vig you, save us the mislynch )

I wanted to go along with you, Mori- but Gotenks was being a jerk about me posting gifs...

 

[EdreesesPieces]

yea ok im p sure you just completely changed your point but thats fine with me

the joke was that if i knew everyones role (ie knowing what i know now) i'd lynch you first then all the scum players, in that order. it was a poorly phrased joke, didn't mean to offend you

 

[vanderzant]

Moriarty was actually one of our town reads on Day 1.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Moriarty was actually one of our town reads on Day 1.

Too pro to go.

 

[vanderzant]

FWIW - Moriarty really isn't scum imo [I've thought this really through]. It might go into wifom, but scum Moriarty would be less lax and more active. They knew they would face a backlash from town and scum would engineer their wagon as an easy one, and I know Kevin/Tom would never throw in the towel like that as scum. That, and atm we're the only ones actively defending them, which makes me think they might not even have scum buddies at all - at the very least others would be in agreeance with us to try and save Moriarty and go for someone else, but not a single person is actually referring to our posts and realising Moriarty could be Town, thus he has no scum defenders in the background, thus he is not scum atm. Indy he could be, we'll need to watch out for that!

^ Kat's pro reasoning

 

[Tom]

well to be fair kat is way pro and we cant expect everyone to think like that

 

[Tom]

@edreese: i didnt take offense. when you said "i would still lynch him knowing what i know now," i just saw the same attitude that i am seeing with a lot of players towards moriarty. "he doesn't play like us, he is a detriment." literally REGARDLESS of alignment.

honestly? way too much of mafia is simply bullshyit that makes other people feel comfortable with you. you can avoid getting lynched all game by simply filling your post with bullshyit wordage that makes people feel like you are on their same wavelength. you are posting! you are saying things they are thinking (note: everyone is thinking)! you are being "active!" im comfortable leaving you in the game! almost everyones opinions in a game of mafia are *****foot anyways. player 1 has 7 other players he is "okay" with, 2 players he doesnt like, and 3 players he thinks are pretty probably town. so, what. vote the players you dont like - thats what really matters.

oh god its starting im going to stop now.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

i like morarty, because they make me laugh. I think if i actually had to play a game with him where I was town and he was in endgame it would be a little more frustrating for me. but, i have yet to experience that. I think moriarty's playstyle could easily be sufficient enough depending on how much effort they put into it.

one thing i have to keep reminding myself about mafia is thats its not a logical game. People may not follow actual logic but instead based more on how people perceive you. Someone could make the most solid arguments on something but they'll be ignored/overlooked based on how others dislike the way that person is playing.

also srry gheb, i pretty much did nothing this game. idk whats wrong with me

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I would caution against ranting criticism of aspects of a metagame without offering constructive means to developing a viable, non-forced, and easily implementable alternative.

Point is though, mafia isn't a game of PURE logic, but it is a logical game. If you aren't acting logically you typicaly are working against your wincon, plain and simple.

The reason why purely having the best logic doesn't always make you win is because it is also a game of deceit. People make mistakes, and when people make mistakes logic says they should be the ones to go, but that isn't always pursuant to your wincon because people on all sides can make mistakes. Most of the game is trying to figure out who is actually making legitimate mistakes and who is just trying to deceive and manipulate you.

Anyone who thinks that having to deal with this aspect of the game or the type of discussion that is necessary pursuant to resolving debates about this issue is bull**** shouldn't be playing mafia. It is the game's very core.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I'm not really following what point you're trying to make. I understand that deception plays a huge role in the game, what I was trying to speak on was how it's easy to have logical arguments be ignored simply because they don't play what is conventionally the way town should play. super long walls of texts, being active, etc.

but i guess your point is that I shouldn't expect logic to be the forefront of how people decide certain things in the game. Someone could be playing completely logical and not make any mistakes and still be scum. And that its our job to look past things that appear to be completely logical and see through to the true meaning behinds people's actions. And that I shouldn't complain that logic sometimes takes a backseat. -- Or am I completely wrong and is that not what you're saying either?

 

[Tom]

I would caution against ranting criticism of aspects of a metagame without offering constructive means to developing a viable, non-forced, and easily implementable alternative.

Point is though, mafia isn't a game of PURE logic, but it is a logical game. If you aren't acting logically you typicaly are working against your wincon, plain and simple.

The reason why purely having the best logic doesn't always make you win is because it is also a game of deceit. People make mistakes, and when people make mistakes logic says they should be the ones to go, but that isn't always pursuant to your wincon because people on all sides can make mistakes. Most of the game is trying to figure out who is actually making legitimate mistakes and who is just trying to deceive and manipulate you.

Anyone who thinks that having to deal with this aspect of the game or the type of discussion that is necessary pursuant to resolving debates about this issue is bull**** shouldn't be playing mafia. It is the game's very core.

anyone of any faction can shell out the type of discussion we are talking about, making other players comfortable with them while still working towards their own win condition. moriarty cannot. however, moriarty can still work towards his own win condition. maybe im not phrasing this correctly, so i guess i will say "only actions truly speak." anyone can say who makes them feel uncomfortable, and talk back and forth trying to make people feel comfortable with them, but in the end, it is where you place your vote that is important. when you place your vote, others see where you are truly going. moriarty can do this.

in another set of words, moriarty cannot lie while creating his paper trail.

moriarty can point out things he disagrees with. that is very important. he has minimal ability to show why he disagrees with it, but thats not as important. what is important is you seeing what moriarty disagrees with and then deciding if you disagree with it or not.

so, there is the alternative that i suggested and you requested. moriarty simply agrees, disagrees, and votes. he doesnt jabber or discuss in length, but other players can still easily form an opinion of him based on his ACTIONS (simply yes agreements and no disagreements; his votes and unvotes and their chronological context), which is what is actually important.

 

[Tom]

hmm. i guess this did become an in-thread discussion after all. so i might as well continue (and at any point if anyone thinks i am being biting or counter-productive please let me know)

Not only does it make you hard to read, but it makes it hard to find out your stances. You can't pressure people with pictures. You can't help out with scumhunting with pictures. All you can do is be annoying.

If I am ever in a game with moriarty, I will push your D1 lynch like I did in this game. Unless of course someone comes out and says, "hey, I'm scum, lynch me."

you never address votes, at all.

 

[BSL]

Say I host a game where you could only vote. A game full of moriartys. That game has no direction. Your vote tells us very little.

Why are you voting? Are the votes random?

You vote for someone. I don't have a read on them. You can't explain why they are scummy, why I should vote for them. I can't disagree with you. We get nowhere.

 

[Xiivi]

Been done a few times before, was rather successful imo.

 

[mentosman8]

I hate to add to the debating, but here's the main problem I see with you guys' playstyle as Mori:

As town you're pretty much stuck with two options: Parrot someone else, or make a small point about something. Mafia doesn't need to be walls of text, but elaboration is almost always a necessity, because there's almost always going to be someone who doesn't get the point. That's the problem I see with it: Not that you can't be productive members of town playing that way, but that you have no way to really convince anyone else that you're right.

Honestly if you guys were willing to elaborate on things you're trying to say when asked, I don't think people would really have the problem they seem to. The basics of posting pictures as responses makes you incredibly difficult to tell town or scum, but when you're town without ever using text responses you destroy both your ability to really convince people. This is why I pushed for you guys to be lynched D1: I knew you would be a great town force if town(although, the naive cop coulda ended up hurting us big time, so it wasn't a huge loss), but I also knew that you were never going to be able to convince town to follow you, simply because you would never be able to clarify things people were questioning.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, in it's current state the playstyle of Moriarty is more of a hassle than a help simply because there's no argument, simply responses. It can be useful, but I think it needs an occasional infusion of words to make arguments that pictures can't.

Also, Tom's back!!

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I probably only had one post this game... I started this game fine, let Zen make most of the posts while making all my suggestions (since... well, for those of you who know how I play, it would probably be better for Zen to post instead of me). Then I got hit hard with mafia all-stars and stuff irl. Seeing as Zen was my partner here, I thought I could get away with playing All-Stars, then catching up, but real life had other plans... and I was caught up with All-Stars, but way behind in Halo to the point where there was no point (I was consistently like 200 posts behind... and just going farther back the more I read...). So... yeah, from night 1 on, the game was basically Zen only.

On a side note, not joining another mafia game for a while... I'm going to make sure that real life actually allows me to play for at least a month before I join.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've made all my points in regards to moriarty during the game on day 1 and I stick to what I've said.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Mod musings....

Smargaret and Gboy69 - you didn't play too badly at all, but you need to think through your night actions more before you send them

X1 and Sword dancer. - X1 played as an awesome scum in this game, kudos to him. Sword dancer, he didn't do much of anything, heh.

Swiss - It is always so entertaining to watch you play as scum. Always.

Vanderzant and Kat - Your reads were great, if mafia had not had killed you, endgame would have turned out much more differently, IMO.

Xonar and Ryker, replaced by DH - First off, let me rant at xonar. You whine about me not letting you into my games, so i oblige and let you, and then you disappear again since ryker perma V/LAed? I'm sorry, but you're blacklisted from all of my games until you can actually complete a few with good activity. Now, DH is sorta a newbie, so i don't have much to say there, however, i'm sorta disappointed as how you played as scum.

Edrees and Praxis - I wouldn't say you played badly, but you were pretty scummy towards the beginning of the game.

Gheb and Macman - I don't really have much to say here. It was easy though to tell when gheb was posting and macman was posting, lol.

Tom and kevinM - I was so happy when you /in'ed this game with your hydra. I was like D: when you were lynched though. I always enjoy watching Moriarty play.

Zen and BY - I don't understand why, but BY sorta faded from the game after D2. Who knows, anyway, Zen, you sorta always play well in the beginning of games and then become scummity scum in endgame.

Sold2 (and SSBF/summonerau?) - I think sold played well in this game, not much to say here.

Frozen and OS - I was super disappointed when you two were killed N1. I was excited to see how the game would turn out with both of you in a hydra, but when you were killed N1, i could see that the game was already going downhill from there.

Mentos and BSL - You played like scummity scum at the beginning, and then your play went uphill from there. I was sort of disappointed, because swiss roleblocked you every night since you claimed.

Thank you all for playing this game, i was very excited to see how an all hydra game would turn out.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

in another set of words, moriarty cannot lie while creating his paper trail.

moriarty can point out things he disagrees with. that is very important. he has minimal ability to show why he disagrees with it, but thats not as important. what is important is you seeing what moriarty disagrees with and then deciding if you disagree with it or not.

so, there is the alternative that i suggested and you requested. moriarty simply agrees, disagrees, and votes. he doesnt jabber or discuss in length, but other players can still easily form an opinion of him based on his ACTIONS (simply yes agreements and no disagreements; his votes and unvotes and their chronological context), which is what is actually important.

So you're contending that simply being able to agree with, disagree with, and vote people is all that is required from players for a healthy mafia game?

Well if you aren't, you pretty much have to to make this contention, since you're saying that this behavior makes for a better metagame, and thus, should be widely adopted, no?

Unless it is proposed as a universally better approach to the game, then you are admitting it is subpar and flawed, and thus, not a viable replacement for the current metagame.

You make a strong contention here that actions allegedly are much more important than the reasoning given behind those actions, yet offer no real substantiation for why that is the case. You can claim it all you want, but I, nor should anyone, buy it unless you can explicitly explain why a player's voting patterns and simple yes/no statements of agreement/disagreement are more important than the reasoning they offer behind it. You basically need to prove that having explanations for actions available for consideration creates a worse metagame than games played with little to no explanation.

Been done a few times before, was rather successful imo.

*dead @ fallacious appeals and opinions presented as fact*

 

[Overswarm]

I'd still lynch Moriarty D1. Hell, if I had 80% certainty he was town, I'd lynch him becuase it'd still help town win in the long run. Moriarty is just bad mafia play.

 

[Xiivi]

*dead @ fallacious appeals and opinions presented as fact*

Saying 'imo' is presenting my opinion as fact?