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Halo Game - Ovah

Peach Monster

Praxis|EdreesesPieces
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@Zen We haven't changed our read on Mentos from scum to town, we just think in light of his breadcrumbing and explanation toDay being believable, as well as the play of players like Swiss and Fans starting to be more suspect to us than previously, he isn't the top priority to be lynched. He's still on the radar and we feel its kind of counterproductive to tunnel him the entire Day and ignore everyone else, so we kind of put him aside for the moment. Our scumpicks right now are Regal, starting to be fans/Sold2, and one of them still is mentos.

PM - your 1068 FoS PM.

You'd take the stance of the hydra, i.e. two of them, (see how they said 'our top suspicion is Spag') and try and then force that combined stance on just one player? No you don't.
Why is that unacceptable? Both players are to be treated as one mind. Hydras are not allowed to present conflicting opinions or stances, that's anti town. FFS's playerslot made a read, and Sold2 is responsible for that read as if it was all his, it's the playerslot that made the read, so the playerslot has to be accounted for it.
 

Swiss

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Don't get mad - get Swiss
Also, Zen, I still can't grasp your logic for clearing DH yesterDay.

I'm not directly implying this to be a scum tell, but I can't get my head around why you said what you did. You say you've were bull****ting at times yesterday (like faking your stance on me) - were you bull****ting then too? I notice you called us both obv town in the same post - in retrospect I feel this could be used as a breadcrumb for you not actually believing he was town.
 

#HBC | Gorf

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R.I.P troll Swiss. He'll be missed by, well, me.

Swiss said:
I am however waiting on Smar to explain to me his reasons as to why only one of them was scum - this may change my stance.
I'll get onto this once I get back from band practice today. It's not gonna run for as late as I thought it'd be.
 

Swiss

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Why is that unacceptable? Both players are to be treated as one mind. Hydras are not allowed to present conflicting opinions or stances, that's anti town. FFS's playerslot made a read, and Sold2 is responsible for that read as if it was all his, it's the playerslot that made the read, so the playerslot has to be accounted for it.
A hydra should come up with one solid stance - this is not in contest. The issue that you took the stance of FFS and then used that as reasoning to find Sold scummy, even when I believe his stances were in line with what his half of the hydra had believed.

Also, what else about FFS is scummy?

What are your 3 main reasons for having myself as a scum pick?

Has Mentos' recent play been null or anti town?

What is your stance on XSword?
 

Xivii

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No I thought you were both town pretty much. Or at least thought there was a good chance you were. I didn't say I was bull****ing. I said my thoughts were ****. Meaning I was sincere with bad reasoning.
 

Swiss

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No I thought you were both town pretty much. Or at least thought there was a good chance you were. I didn't say I was bull****ing. I said my thoughts were ****. Meaning I was sincere with bad reasoning.
Apologies, my bad. I took the asterixs as bull**** instead of **** for some reason.

What then was the influence for changing your stance on me? I can't see it.
 

X1-12

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FFS needs to sort it out

I thought summoner could start posting as of the 9th hmm?


I reckon...

I reckon PM should go. Gboy/mentos/ffs all fighting for second best
 

Swiss

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Re-read.

Zen, your first post of the day was voting me and asking me about night actions. Other than this being a crumb of you having investigative night actions when you have claimed not to have a PR, I fail to see what about any night actions I have could be interpreted as scummy in itself which then warrant a vote and immediate questioning. Let us assume I do have a PR - you would either have seen me 'away from home' which is then no reason to then pressure me wrt PRs (especially as you still had me as town by the end of D2, unless I missed a change in stance - the only time you even probe me is a quick one lie question wrt me not voting PM when I probably could have, considering I'm the person that raised this, and that it really is a minor point - I do not see it as justification for the change in stance which occured), you have also explicitly stated toDay that Chuckie's death and read on me is not your reasoning for a change in stance. It is safe to assume Spag's death has not made you more suspicious of me either - if this is the case, please explain. You could not be a 'watcher' as Chuckie had that role. The only last role you could theoretically have, assuming you lied about being VT, is tracker. So unless you targeted Chuckie or Spag and saw me visit them, (I can assure you this did not happen) you have no reason to question me. And again, combined with your supposed town read on me, you could easily have assumed I was vig and should not have questioned me anyway.

I see no possible pro town explanation for what you have done that does not fully contradict your stances from D2 to D3.

Fos Zen
 

X1-12

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Why do you ask me about every player in this game except for the one I just said was my top lynch choice? Are my scum reads not important to you? I don't like you asking those questions.

Mentos' crumbs idk about, I mean i'm just worried how a player was so nearly lynched D1 then claimed mason but failed twice consecutively to recruit?

FFS had a really bad post today (dunno which half but it was shocking play), also should have posted again my now.

Gboy skimming, not remembering you talking about flavour when even I remember that. I generally like smarg's posts but normally when gboy overreacts I can instantly call it as butthurt town, this game I'm not so sure which worries me.

You, well I'll re-read you someday. Like I said before sometimes I can read you sometimes I can't, I often can when you are scum. This time I can't but its not clear whether you are playing good scum or just town. I can't say just yet. I'd guess town based on the fact most players in this game are more inherently scummy than you.

Zen is town. I'm pretty sure from most of his play and the way he usually plays. your recent post ending in an FoS on him I don't buy, I think he just had a gut read on you and was just pushing a BS case because of it
 

Swiss

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I figure we all dislike PM for pretty much the same reasons.

Mentos' crumbs ARE there though. And like I say his no recruit N1 isn't scummy imo. I assume it is his play you find scummy? What exactly?

Re-reading I don't see what was wrong with FFS' #991, I'm assuming that was the bad post. I don't see why Zen jumped on him. 'Nor why you seem to think Zen was in the right.

Not sure Gboy's poor memory is scummy. But you raise a good point wrt I've not even been considering him as a play or scummy. I think I took my early read on him and assumed it was right. He merits a re-read.

Fair point on me.

As for my FoS on Zen - I think it is completely merited bearing in mind his seemingly impossible contradictions.
 

Xivii

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Swiss, missed your 1079 earlier. I cant quote because I'm on PSPnet so I'll just adress things in bullets.

-Why would it be wiser fypov to work off of Mentos just saying whether he had success or not? Your saying you think it would have been better, but you're not saying why or how.


-I'll look for the post tomorrow, but I specifically stated that I agreed with Chuckies reads. The division point was DH. I liked you because I liked DH. DH's flip, along with a reread of D1 and the-man is mainly why you're
 

Swiss

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You misconstrue. Just that we should have Mentos saying that to start of with, then he can claim who he recruited later, if we so decide it to be beneficial - which we probably would. I see no reason to rush all the information coming at us when Mentos might not be best advised to tell us everything.

Agreeing with Chuckie's reads apart from DH does not make sense, as I was on your town list, yet Chuckie's scum list (mainly on it anyway, he said I was "up in the air and not a play for the Day" - we reached a truce..of sorts, ish.). I also do not see how DH town then leads to Swiss town (and how DH scum leads to Swiss scum), as you seem to imply from your change in stance on me from town to scum. I'd like you to back this up.

I also think that, in light of your questionable logic 'clearing' DH as town when he turned out to be scum, it is an easy way for you to then 180 your stance on me when the opportunity presents itself. If you can satisfy me that your logic clearing DH is legitimate I'll drop this point - but as it stands I am yet to understand this logic. Even Chuckie raised issue with it in his #841 where he said you "couldn't clear people on such shaky grounds" and furthers the point by saying Zen's clearing DH is "silly" #851. There is undeniable issue with the logic, and combined with the other issues I have with you, makes me think you are not playing this game straight.

I recognise that you can't post much at the moment so I'll wait for you to have PC access.
 

Xivii

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unvote; vote: XSword

Swiss don't take this as me removing my suspicion of you in the slightest.

XSword why do you think my case on Swiss is BS? It's not like I'm using the kind of reasoning I was with DH. Why is PM your top choice again? I'd to hear your reasoning, not Swiss' btw.
 

Xivii

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Swiss I knew my reasoning on DH was shaky and I said so multiple times yesterday. Also I wasn't clearing him. I just had town vibes from the way he answered. I don't know how to explain it any better than I did in my large explanation post yesterday. I did however start to realize a major issue with my reasoning and that was the fact that he had been playing epic mafia, and I could tell so by the way he was posting. And after his last post of avoiding what I was trying to get at, I probably would have
 

Swiss

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You would have lynched DH yesterDay?

This is your last post of the day. Here you acknowledge that you aren't 100% confirming him as cleared townie anymore (when you saw he was about to be lynched) but you, at no point, even suggest you find him scummy, let alone a play for the day. You say you have a town view of him.

Also I need to stop saying "cleared". No one is ever cleared. I simply have a town view of DH. He's not cleared. Sorry for saying other wise.
Yet you just said this

I probably would have switched to him. The day was ended however.
Vote Zen

And, of course, answers to my other posts when you have time.
 

EdreesesPieces

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Swiss I already explained what we see scummy in FFS/Sold2. There's not a lot, but that's one observation we made. That's why it's a FoS and not a vote. The FoS was for that specific reason, not his general play. And yes, we put the FoS on FFS, but whether we typed FFS or Sold2, it's really interchangable. Ok, fine I take back the FoS on fans for sell and I"ll put it on Sold

FoS: Sold2 seriously what's the difference, i just dont see it. Let FFS/Sold2 fight his own battles, u seem pretty interested in defending him before he's had a chance to answer himself. I want to hear from him regarding my post, not you.

Will answer your other questions after I go over them with Praxis, gonna review with him to make sure we are eye-toeye.Probably post it late tonight or tomorrow morning.
 

#HBC | Gorf

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Hey guys... Umm, swiss, i no i promised u the dark hose pm thing, but I'm like so stoned man. ill check on everything tomorrow after the gig.
 

Swiss

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EP I have no issue with allowing Sold2 answering your questions and defending himself - I do however take issue with you taking the combined stance of two players (a hydra) then questioning why Sold2 himself had a different opinion. I should re-read to check this is what happened, but I think it is - as SSBF had left, I think it questionable to call out Sold2 for not having the same stance as Sold2+SSBF. If the composition of the playerslot has changed (which it has) it is reasonable to assume that the stances will also change in favour of the remaining players views. This is my issue.

Lmao Gordito.
 

X1-12

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unvote; vote: XSword

Swiss don't take this as me removing my suspicion of you in the slightest.

XSword why do you think my case on Swiss is BS? It's not like I'm using the kind of reasoning I was with DH. Why is PM your top choice again? I'd to hear your reasoning, not Swiss' btw.
Why? because You're pushing on him for reasons which either I just don't get or they are bad reasons Example:
-Dislike you because DH couldn't produce a read on you, yet he could produce a read on other.
Not being able to read Swiss is not unusual, is it? I can't, most of the game even Chuckie couldn't :/. its also very possible he was fed his reads by a scum buddy who knew he was a goner and wanted to **** with us.

From what I can see you are just pushing him for the sake of it. I assume it was either because you are scum or because you have reasons for attacking him you can't explain i.e gut read. Based on the rest of your play I'm going with the assumption your town.


@Zen:
Swiss I knew my reasoning on DH was shaky and I said so multiple times yesterday. Also I wasn't clearing him. I just had town vibes from the way he answered. I don't know how to explain it any better than I did in my large explanation post yesterday. I did however start to realize a major issue with my reasoning and that was the fact that he had been playing epic mafia, and I could tell so by the way he was posting. And after his last post of avoiding what I was trying to get at, I probably would have
The other day you definitely said "That's what I love about new players, so easy to clear" or words very similar to that. Why lie? or did you mean something else by that post?
 

Xivii

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@Swiss:
Chuckie#769 said:
Also Zen FYI our scummy list assuming the-man/DH is scum (from a week ago) is

He-man/Regal/FFS
Peach Monster/Smarboy/XSword
[QUOTE#770]Yep Yep @ the second one. I say lynch PM > XSword > Smarboy in that order. Not exactly sure if Smar is the last scum though.

Vandy it's funny that we have such a similar line of thought but the-man is what's seperating us. I'm so sure DH is town. If he's not, he is still better to keep around because he so easy to read. [/QUOTE]
After looking at it again, I'm not sure if that is what he meant, but at the time I saw this as him saying he thinks scum could be either:He-man/Regal/FFS or Peach Monster/Smarboy/XSword.

This was the same line of thought I was in. The difference was, he felt more strongly on the first scenario, where as I felt more strongly on the second scenario. I was working on the scenario of PM scum. Chuckie was working on the scenario of DH scum. If PM flipped town, I would have dropped that path and gone the DH > You > FFS route. (Not that I would only see you two as scum following, but you would be the two I see most connected to DH). That's the reason why you are my primary suspect toDay. Because of DH's flip. Not because of Chukie's flip.
--------
Swiss#1100 said:
Here you acknowledge that you aren't 100% confirming him as cleared townie anymore (when you saw he was about to be lynched) but you, at no point, even suggest you find him scummy, let alone a play for the day. You say you have a town view of him.
Zen said:
Also I need to stop saying "cleared". No one is ever cleared. I simply have a town view of DH. He's not cleared. Sorry for saying other wise.
Swiss#1000 said:
Yet you just said this
I probably would have switched to him. The day was ended however.
No Swiss that is not what I said, this is what I said:
I did however start to realize a major issue with my reasoning and that was the fact that he had been playing epic mafia, and I could tell so by the way he was posting. And after his last post of avoiding what I was trying to get at, I probably would have switched to him. The day was ended however.
You are omitting the context of my argument to portray me as contradicting myself. The reasoning to why my town vibes of DH were deteriorating is this:

First note that one of the other reasons I wanted to keep DH around besides having town vibes from him was because I felt if he was scum eventually he would be caught.
If he's not, he is still better to keep around because he so easy to read.
I noticed DH was playing off and was beginning to look into it with this:
-DH: I see you have been playing epic mafia hm. About how many times have you been scum? Don't lie, I can check.
My whole reasoning for my town vibes of Dh was that he had only played one game before and had yet to develop a deceptive attitude in mafia, however I noticed he started using debater terms after I pointed out he didn't say much for a debater. So I knew he had actually adapted to do what he needed to do. And this was his answer to my question:
I'm addicted to it x_x. 7 times, though epic mafia & forum mafia are pretty different when it comes to finding out scum (ex: in epicmfia, people will claim their powers roles and what they got, even with the chance that the maf might kill them. )

Also, my statistics are hardly accurate, as I've played more roles than that (ex: i've been oracle like 4 times, and lightkeeper 3, and a vig once. I'm pretty sure there's more, I just forgot it.)
Almost immidiately after, Gheb hammered and and the day ended so I could not pursue this any further. If I had I believe there was a good chance my view of DH would have been reversed enough for me to vote him.

btw Swiss that link is my whole explanation on DH.

--------


X1:
Not being able to read Swiss is not unusual, is it? I can't, most of the game even Chuckie couldn't :/. its also very possible he was fed his reads by a scum buddy who knew he was a goner and wanted to **** with us.
LOL

DH was scum. He shouldn't be able to not be able to "read" someone.

Again, what's your reasoning on PM?

The other day you definitely said "That's what I love about new players, so easy to clear" or words very similar to that. Why lie? or did you mean something else by that post?
Also I need to stop saying "cleared". No one is ever cleared. I simply have a town view of DH. He's not cleared. Sorry for saying other wise.
 

Peach Monster

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EP I have no issue with allowing Sold2 answering your questions and defending himself - I do however take issue with you taking the combined stance of two players (a hydra) then questioning why Sold2 himself had a different opinion. I should re-read to check this is what happened, but I think it is - as SSBF had left, I think it questionable to call out Sold2 for not having the same stance as Sold2+SSBF. If the composition of the playerslot has changed (which it has) it is reasonable to assume that the stances will also change in favour of the remaining players views. This is my issue.

Lmao Gordito.
Just want to second this from the other head's perspective; I second what EP says here. A hydra should be expected to account for the playerslot's opinions and stances. If the playerslot chooses to post an opinion, they should be accounted for it later. Otherwise, Edrees can easily vow off Peach Monster posts as the other head's opinions. If the heads are in disagreement, do not post it, and if you're not sure, wait on expressing that opinion to talk to them. It's one of the hurdles of hydra play.

And I dislike that you are trying to take away Sold2's responsibility to answer the question of a contradiction. This connection should be noted if one of you two flips scum.




I wonder why Mentosman is being so poor in terms of posting content? He's already a suspect based on his two failed recruits. The breadcrumb doesn't necessarily prove anything- the possibility exists that the vig killed Chuckie and Mentos killed his breadcrumbed target, I simply find this scenario very unlikely and am willing to believe that Mentos is town for the time being while we have other suspects to pursue. That said, his refusal to contribute makes me suspect him increasingly.


Something I'd like to point out:
Mentos' reason for refusing my plan yesterDay was under suspicion that we were scum, and trying to lure him in to recruiting him in a last ditch effort to gain a second NK. This is obviously not the case, because we made no attempt to push Mentos to recruit DH. We tried to argue that we should be the mason choice over DH because we knew we were town and thus would not cause Mentos' death.

Obviously, that would not have flown as an argument- "recruit Us over DH, because DH might be scum" would have been responded to with "Well, so might you." But we did try to argue for us as the recruit canidate over DH for that reason.

We realize this doesn't confirm we are town, but it should reassure Mentos' worries regarding my motivations for suggesting the plan.


However, I feel less strongly about the plan with the limited number of townies we have toDay; we'd have three deaths during the night if Mentos recruits a scum, scum kills someone else, and vig kills someone else. We'd certainly catch scum the next day though, in that case, but we'd be in lylo I think, and if they have a voteblocker or manipulator...









More on the actual topic: the more I think on it, the more I feel Swiss is the play for the day. Not only does he look scummiest to us, he also is the safest choice, as he has essentially confirmed himself not-vig.
 

Swiss

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Zen wrt my #1100 - you gave no indications that you were even considering DH as a play yesterDay - it took what, 3 pages (40ppp) for you to go from 'certain town' to 'town read' - and this was more due to you recognising you can never clear people. You may have acknowledged that your logic was 'shaky' after myself and Chuckie forced you to, but you did not re-evaluate your points or stances because of this. I see no evidence in your play which supports the claims you are making of yourself.

As for there being 'two lists of possible scum' and thus suddenly finding me scummy as DH flipped scum...It doesn't wash. You'll need to post explaining why these would be the specific scum teams. I'd also ask why you didn't equally go after FFS - if he too is now meant to be scum, according to Chuckie's list - which you agreed with. Inconsistent play.

Also I would like explanation for my #1090 which highlights mechanical impossibilities in your play. This is not just you doing 'scummy' things - this is you being caught lying.

I also want your thoughts on the other issues I have raised. I'm assuming you still don't have enough time on a PC, but you will need to provide sufficient content soon.


I'll probably want to lynch PM or Zen toDay. Idc which as of now. I need Zen's defense of himself, Gboy's reasoning for PM not being scum (or indie - crucial point to me. Giving evidence just as to why DH wasn't aligned with PM may not stop me wanting PM lynched.) I also want to hear other players thoughts as to who should go, obviously. FFS and Mentos in particular.
 

Swiss

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PM - explain why I am the play toDay.

Myself confirming I am not vig (which I did do) is NOT justification to lynch me as I am 'safe', this is pathetic reasoning to even be considered, let alone posted. Why not use this as a point against Mentos who cannot be Vig? Or you, who've claimed VT - you're useless to us. Why should we not 'safe lynch' the VT as opposed to 'safe lynch' the non-Vig-but-could-have-any-other-PR? What about Zen and his supposed claim of no PR?

Show how I am scummy. I think you're scum. Indie if Gboy convinces me DH wasn't aligned with you.
 

X1-12

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@Zen: Inconsistencies, poor logic/reasoning, posting for the sake of posting. Here look I'll rip into just his most recent post

However, I feel less strongly about the plan with the limited number of townies we have toDay; we'd have three deaths during the night if Mentos recruits a scum, scum kills someone else, and vig kills someone else. We'd certainly catch scum the next day though, in that case, but we'd be in lylo I think, and if they have a voteblocker or manipulator...
Firstly you are assuming vig, but also you are talking as if vig has to kill (not ture), which is something town can control, provided vig isn't a total idot. Not only that but if we mislynch then have 3 kills of town we'd lose, not be in LYLO, we'd have lost. Voteblocker is an almost solely pro-town ability. Gheb, and I beleive EE too said this in Bioware, a game you were both in. Manipulator is also a very rare role.

More on the actual topic: the more I think on it, the more I feel Swiss is the play for the day. Not only does he look scummiest to us, he also is the safest choice, as he has essentially confirmed himself not-vig.
We don't even know if we are looking for a vig, yet you only talk about the vig, not a possible sk. I also find it **** terrible play that the 'safest lynch' should be the one you go for.

ugh
 

Swiss

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While we're waiting for X1 to answer...why don't you tell us these reasons, Swiss?
I can tell you why I dislike you, but not why other people dislike you, not for certain anyway.

However a re-read should also provide this information. I've been open about why I dislike you - I made a case on you yesterDay iirc - you even admitted you couldn't refute some of the points. I'll assume you forgot this.

As for toDay I don't think your logic for pushing Sold2 is reasonable. I've stated this. I'll assume then you wanted to know what from yesterDay and D1 made me think you are scum. Apart from your illogical and scummy 'safe lynch' policy just above toDay, which I also find scummy. I don't recall where my cases on you are - but if you do not believe they exist, or think you can satisfactorily answer them now - I will find them. I remember you buddying up to the-mans case on me - which I disliked.
 

Praxis

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@Zen: Inconsistencies, poor logic/reasoning, posting for the sake of posting. Here look I'll rip into just his most recent post
You're using a post established after the question asked to establish your case? >_>

Firstly you are assuming vig, but also you are talking as if vig has to kill (not ture), which is something town can control, provided vig isn't a total idot. Not only that but if we mislynch then have 3 kills of town we'd lose, not be in LYLO, we'd have lost. Voteblocker is an almost solely pro-town ability. Gheb, and I beleive EE too said this in Bioware, a game you were both in. Manipulator is also a very rare role.
I died D1 in Bioware, so perhaps I was not around for it or missed the comment. I was not aware of voteblocker being pro-town, but vote manipulator is often scum or indie. I ran the math (-3) off of 8 townies instead of 7 for some reason, you are correct on that front.



We don't even know if we are looking for a vig, yet you only talk about the vig, not a possible sk. I also find it **** terrible play that the 'safest lynch' should be the one you go for.
If Swiss is a SK, we are happy with lynching him.

We have two scum picks, Swiss and FFS. Swiss is a safer choice between the two because everyone in this game who is not PM/Swiss/Mentos could potentially be the vig. However, being the safest choice is hardly our reason for wanting him lynched; we think he is scum.
 

Praxis

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@ Swiss:
We asked you first. Why did you not answer?
We will politely answer anyway.

You are the play toDay because we think you are scum. We also think FFS may be scum, but between the two, you are a safer lynch choice, and we think you look scummier regardless.

We've already discussed the reasons you are scum through the day; your buddying of the dead Spag, your defense of FFS, your defense of DH yesterDay, and what we perceive to be a poor case on Zen.

We fully agree that we are expendable as a VT, which is why we wanted Mentos to recruit us, since if scum killed his recruit target again they'd get a VT. As to Mentos, Mentos has claimed another power role.
 

Swiss

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
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Don't get mad - get Swiss
Y
If Swiss is a SK, we are happy with lynching him.
If I were SK:

1) I'd claim Vig.

2) Anyone (even scum) would be happy lynching me - my point is you have little to no evidence to back up what you say.

Please provide content as to why I am scum.

Although this is probably obvious - Zen/PM are my top picks.
 

Swiss

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
1,082
Location
Don't get mad - get Swiss
You are the play toDay because we think you are scum. We also think FFS may be scum, but between the two, you are a safer lynch choice, and we think you look scummier regardless.

We've already discussed the reasons you are scum through the day; your buddying of the dead Spag, your defense of FFS, your defense of DH yesterDay, and what we perceive to be a poor case on Zen.

We fully agree that we are expendable as a VT, which is why we wanted Mentos to recruit us, since if scum killed his recruit target again they'd get a VT. As to Mentos, Mentos has claimed another power role.

How is my defence of FFS scummy?
1) It is in line with my previous stance on him
2) It is in line with my stance on you
3) Your reasoning for pushing him is logically wrong - Sold2 hasn't changed his stances, the slots stances have changed as SSBF left.

As a side note - this is not so much defence of FFS, more an atatck on you for an illogical push.


Explain why my push on Zen is weak - paying attention in particular to my post outlining him having to be lying, and to which he them admitted he put words into my mouth.

I have never claimed VT - you are attempting to make myself seem a more viable lynch. This is similar to what Zen did which I had to call him out on. Both you and Zen are the only people to claim I have said things which I haven't wrt my role.
 
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