Halo and Smash - Comparison and testing for a better game

[iRJi]

Edit:

Here are the stage that I want all of you to use and test:

Test Stage 3- http://www.mediafire.com/?f46i8f71bnibk9g
Test Stage 4- http://www.mediafire.com/?w7i7t6mmv2sgggp

If you guys can get videos, then please do so. I will have my own videos up by Sunday when I get back home, but until then I want to here all of your input. The stages are just very basic stages, nothing serious at all. I just want to hear how you guys feel about something this basic being at least a starter stage, and how it varies to the other stages we have now. Do comparisons, analyze everything. I will give my own input as soon as I can.

__________________________________________

Introduction

Hello all. I would first like to post here that this is a blunt comparison in an attempt to open the community’s eyes in understanding what we actually have at our hands to improving this game. I know a lot of people in this community don’t know much about Halo. By increasing your knowledge of the Halo, I hope to have everyone take into consideration on how we go about things. I would first like to discuss halo, because halo is something that I have been dealing with since 2004, and I know it inside and out in terms of testing for competitive play. Let me start with something we call Forge.

Halo Forge System and Brawl’s System

Forge is a section of halo where we can create maps, and gametypes. Think of it as brawl builder, but on a way larger scale. Forge was introduced in Halo 3, and since its beginning opened many doors to competitive play. We made multiple gametypes and maps, play testing and creating them for hours, to days, to even months at a time, making sure that it was perfect. For a better glance of what I am talking about, I will use pictures:
Foundry’s flat layout looks like this:

Spoiler

The map has everything from the bottom being completely open and plain, from the back of the map having stairs and back rooms. In game picture with the map unedited looks like this:

Spoiler

As you can see, there are boxes and crates on the map. Now Forge enables us to edit what is on the map we first cleared the map of everything on it:

Spoiler

And from there we are able to edit and create anything we can image with the tools they provide for us. Examples are here:

Spoiler

After learning how to Forge properly, we then took what we had at our hands, and made customs maps, for MLG:

Map: Amplified

Spoiler

Map: Onslaught:

Spoiler

Learning the power of Forge, we edited every map possible to create custom spawn times, Weapons on map, and even altering the speed of the character you use and how much damage you deal to others. A common question that has been asked to me is how do Halo players gain access to the custom maps and gametypes? The answer is simple, actually. We upload them to the net at a universal location so that everyone can see them, and have access to them.

Lets now compare this to brawl. Brawl has a lot of features that Halo has, just on a smaller scale. We have a stage builder. While Brawl’s stage builder is not as powerful as halo’s, we actually can make perfectly viable stages to play on, and upload them so that everyone has access to them as well. We have damage modifiers, but we don’t look into it like we should because it leads to “Altering the game from its actual intention” (as some people claim) When it comes down to it, Brawl provides us with tools to make our own custom game, but yet we do not take advantage of it. We instead sit there just speculating on how things may turn out, instead of chasing and actually putting effort into the game to make it better. This leads to the question: How serious do you actually take this game?

Respect for the Game and Organization

This game finally made it to MLG, and we hold tournaments every week with 32+ people attending an event almost every time, but yet I always hear complaints instead of actions. How much do you guys really respect this game? How many of you go out of your way to sit down and test everything? How many of you play to learn almost every aspect of this game? To me, if you are one of the ones who sit there and complain about how things are unbalanced, then you need to step up.

I feel this community as a whole is overall unorganized. How can we call ourselves a competitive community with so many unset rules? While it is not the BBR’s job to set rules in stone, I feel it should be honestly. We play this game week by week, and yet we have so many variables that the game can’t be consistent between regions. First off, I feel we should actually have a set ruleset, and stage selection for every region. The main reason why everyone uses custom rule sets is because we cater to everyone’s need, instead of actually being a competitive community. We can still cater to players, but we should have set rules for everyone. Leave this up to me, and I would start this whole game from scratch and test every aspect and inch of it to make it as fair and competitive as possible, while still having variety. I feel it is time for a change on how we actually go about things. I strongly feel we should look into our options that the game actually provides us, instead of just theory crafting everything. It’s sickening to see such a good game being limited because people are not willing to go out of their way and test everything out.

__________________________________________________

Videos For custom stages:

Test Stage 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6q_P-5Tx-o
Test Stage 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQtQQeNbw0w

 

[718_ROOKI3]

This is Godlike. I've been thinking so much about really turning this game into what it should've been. 1st Renegade with his 1.1 Damage Ratio idea, now this. I'm hyped as f*ck to put an extreme amount of effort towards any of these new ideas for our community. Hopefully something breaks through. =]

 

[Sovereign]

This is Godlike. I've been thinking so much about really turning this game into what it should've been. 1st Renegade with his 1.1 Damage Ratio idea, now this. I'm hyped as f*ck to put an extreme amount of effort towards any of these new ideas for our community. Hopefully something breaks through. =]

I second this.

I'm going to Renegade's house this Friday to test things with the 1.1 ratio. I also think that Custom Stages should be used in competitive play. It seems as the Halo community has truly made that game their own, while we of the Brawl community struggle to unify on simple rules, or even come to a consensus on bans.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I second this.

I'm going to Renegade's house this Friday to test things with the 1.1 ratio. I also think that Custom Stages should be used in competitive play. It seems as the Halo community has truly made that game their own, while we of the Brawl community struggle to unify on simple rules, or even come to a consensus on bans.

Yeah Ren and Me were playing on WiFi with 1.1 Damage Ratio and my goodness Brawl never seemed so much more balanced. Your gonna love it dude. I'm taking this quite serious, enough to have permanent memory for everything im learning (I tend to forget things easily when im not interested).

I really really really wanna see custom stages takin' into consideration alot too.

I'm hyped once again. =]

 

[Jorgeme]

Attempts have been made to improve the quality of the competitive game play in the form of hacks such as brawl+ and balanced brawl. The reason Brawlers have chosen this route instead of Brawl's "forge" is when the game starts the playing field is almost NEVER even. In halo everyone starts w/ a spartan (covenants are for noobs) and have the same weapons. The power weapons are placed so their is equal opportunity for each team to acquire them. When brawl starts immediately someone is at a disadvantage based on the characters and stage chosen. If you make a change to competitive brawl you have to make sure it is fair for every character and stage. This is why simply changing damage ratios or making new stages isn't enough.

On a side note DMR's SUCK!! I mean seriously why did they have to make them inaccurate after the first 2 shots... I really hope MLG can figure out how to fix this.

 

[iRJi]

Attempts have been made to improve the quality of the competitive game play in the form of hacks such as brawl+ and balanced brawl. The reason Brawlers have chosen this route instead of Brawl's "forge" is when the game starts the playing field is almost NEVER even. In halo everyone starts w/ a spartan (covenants are for noobs) and have the same weapons. The power weapons are placed so their is equal opportunity for each team to acquire them. When brawl starts immediately someone is at a disadvantage based on the characters and stage chosen. If you make a change to competitive brawl you have to make sure it is fair for every character and stage. This is why simply changing damage ratios or making new stages isn't enough.

On a side note DMR's SUCK!! I mean seriously why did they have to make them inaccurate after the first 2 shots... I really hope MLG can figure out how to fix this.

First, there is a difference between improving the game by the tools listed and given to us, and trying to alter the game by outside hacks and tweaks. Brawl + and balance brawl are not legitimate ways to increase competitively, they are outside creations to satisfy a certain fan base.

Now to move on to the 2nd point. You are right about the playing field never being even, however, I am not saying to make the playing field even. I am stating that we have not done everything in our power, not even 1/2 of our power, to make the game as competitive as it can possibly be. A game can never be perfectly balanced, this even goes for halo. In every game, there will be aspects that will assist a player or character more then one another, it is just the way games are built.

3rd, you are shooting to fast if you are becoming inaccurate with the DMR after the 2nd shot. The DMR has a faster burst speed then what you are actually suppose to shoot it, so you need to learn how to control the speed of your shots. When you can do that, then you will actually hit things. I would like to keep things like this out of the thread though, I honestly don't feel how inaccurate the DMR is to you important to state here.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I know for a fact Brawl Builder can build better stages than stupid **** like Frigate, Brinstar, JJapes, Pictochat, Luigi's Mansion, PS2, Etc. We need change, smart change, better change. =]

 

[SuSa]

The difference is Halo is a first person shooter and not a 2D fighter game.

Stages in Halo have pretty broad guidelines to what's allowed and what's not... Brawl on the other hand get's really messy.

In fact, some character AT's/glitches are pretty much explictly using the Brawl Builder. Not to mention you can't really build 90 degree corners out of two blocks... you can glitch through them, this can lead to some major issues in itself.

Not to say I'm against this.. but there's so much more to take into consideration than "You spawn here, you spawn there. guns spawn here, here, and here." You have to look at so much the placement of a grabbable edge being able to be abused and how it effects the cast. How things like spikes can effect the cast (or be abused), and etc.

I think it's great to use it as a training tool (see old Pit/Sheik/Lucario training stages... from like 2 years ago... )

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You forgot to add that as far as I know, the custom stages are the most hated stages in the MLG playlist in Halo 3. >_>

There is also the fact that the stage builder would have to not use hacks, so anyone could build the stage, and that only one piece has grabable ledges: the block. As I found out when entering that custom stage contest: only having blocks as grabable ledges is a big issue.

 

[iRJi]

The difference is Halo is a first person shooter and not a 2D fighter game.

Stages in Halo have pretty broad guidelines to what's allowed and what's not... Brawl on the other hand get's really messy.

In fact, some character AT's/glitches are pretty much explictly using the Brawl Builder. Not to mention you can't really build 90 degree corners out of two blocks... you can glitch through them, this can lead to some major issues in itself.

Not to say I'm against this.. but there's so much more to take into consideration than "You spawn here, you spawn there. guns spawn here, here, and here." You have to look at so much the placement of a grabbable edge being able to be abused and how it effects the cast. How things like spikes can effect the cast (or be abused), and etc.

I think it's great to use it as a training tool (see old Pit/Sheik/Lucario training stages... from like 2 years ago... )

Legit post. I am going to have to go more in depth with you, and I would like more input from you too. Firstly, lets start by halo is a far more complex game in terms of building and taking into calculating where the spawns are. Being in several stage building tests on halo, with Killa KC, just for testing (he is now the main forger for MLG gametypes) I have been enlightened on how strategical people take into consideration where things are actually placed. I can say just from experience that we just don't think "Hmm, there should be a spawn point here" and just place it. Things of that matter are all placed with the question of why it should be placed there. It is always taken into consideration that if this spawn goes here, then this person at this place can see this position, therefore you can actually spawn at a disadvantage if the person is controlling the spawn point. This is just a little example.

I think you missed one big thing that I am trying to get at. What I am actually trying to state is that the difference of communities and how they use the tools available to make a competitive game. While we did break down this game to a high degree, I feel we are being to conservative because people are afraid of judgment of others. To properly exploit a game, we must look at every aspect, even things we possibly don't like, because if it can improve the game, then why not do it? There are ways to go about this without compromising everyone's judgment, we just need to put time in. I also understand the concept of " if it's not broken, don't fix it" but also keep in mind that innovations would not exist if we lived under that all the time.

You forgot to add that as far as I know, the custom stages are the most hated stages in the MLG playlist in Halo 3. >_>

There is also the fact that the stage builder would have to not use hacks, so anyone could build the stage, and that only one piece has grabable ledges: the block. As I found out when entering that custom stage contest: only having blocks as grabable ledges is a big issue.

Just for a quick note, Onslaught was rated the 2nd best map on the circuit until Midship was readded. Now it is the 4th. The most hated map is Amp, however, but still is usable for competitive play.

Now on to the stage blocks. I am aware of the issue, but how much effort have we put to actually seeing if there was a way around it, or a way to coup with it? I know when I get back to my house tonight, I am going to jump right back into it and keep testing more and more. I like this game, I think it have room to improve.

 

[Raziek]

I know for a fact Brawl Builder can build better stages than stupid **** like Frigate, Brinstar, JJapes, Pictochat, Luigi's Mansion, PS2, Etc. We need change, smart change, better change. =]

*Looks at post*

*Looks at character icon*

 

[SuSa]

I think you missed one big thing that I am trying to get at. What I am actually trying to state is that the difference of communities and how they use the tools available to make a competitive game. While we did break down this game to a high degree, I feel we are being to conservative because people are afraid of judgment of others. To properly exploit a game, we must look at every aspect, even things we possibly don't like, because if it can improve the game, then why not do it? There are ways to go about this without compromising everyone's judgment, we just need to put time in. I also understand the concept of " if it's not broken, don't fix it" but also keep in mind that innovations would not exist if we lived under that all the time.

We take the game as is, and try to make it as competitive as possible with as few changes as possible. That's just how our community turned out to be.

We are conservative because anyone who's against what the BBR decides is obviously a scrub and uncompetitive. It's just the viewpoint people obtain because they feel the BBR is the final say in everything. (With partially correct assumption to do so, seeing as the BBR are usually highly knowledgeable players and place well in tournaments consistently... proving they know how to play this game )

The only flaw with that logic, is the BBR practically controls what the game is.

Spoiler

The community can branch off to do their own things, but when we hold nationals it puts people at disadvantages because there is no standard for playing. People need some sort of standard so they don't stray to far from it, otherwise there is chaos.

So because the BBR has control of what the game is they can morph it to fit themselves the best. What will keep them in control of the game? The direction it goes? What benefits them best? I'm not saying every BBR member has this mentality, but it's natural human greed. They are in a position of power and it's making them money. They want to naturally keep this positition and continue to make money. Correct? This is the major flaw I see with the BBR and why major changes are sometimes not enacted, despite popularity or the reasoning behind it. Even despite that half of the BBR actually agrees with the community (which if we treated this like the Legislative branch of the US.... this could mean we'd win the vote...)

I honestly think that's how major issues need to be decided. With an elected Senate and an elected House. One is the BBR which is elected by the BBR themselves. The other is a large collective of people whom are representatives of their region/state voted by their region/state and votes on the manner that best interests their community. This causes some checks and balances between those in power. Also no player should be allowed to be in both - and the player doesn't even need to be a high level player. Just someone elected whom the people trust to give their opinion on a subject and vote about it honestly.

Spoiler

Holy ****, I think I'm onto something here.

 

[iRJi]

We take the game as is, and try to make it as competitive as possible with as few changes as possible. That's just how our community turned out to be.

You can see why I have a problem with this right? Or do you need me to explain?

We are conservative because anyone who's against what the BBR decides is obviously a scrub and uncompetitive. It's just the viewpoint people obtain because they feel the BBR is the final say in everything. (With partially correct assumption to do so, seeing as the BBR are usually highly knowledgeable players and place well in tournaments consistently... proving they know how to play this game )


The only flaw with that logic, is the BBR practically controls what the game is.

Spoiler

The community can branch off to do their own things, but when we hold nationals it puts people at disadvantages because there is no standard for playing. People need some sort of standard so they don't stray to far from it, otherwise there is chaos.

So because the BBR has control of what the game is they can morph it to fit themselves the best. What will keep them in control of the game? The direction it goes? What benefits them best? I'm not saying every BBR member has this mentality, but it's natural human greed. They are in a position of power and it's making them money. They want to naturally keep this positition and continue to make money. Correct? This is the major flaw I see with the BBR and why major changes are sometimes not enacted, despite popularity or the reasoning behind it. Even despite that half of the BBR actually agrees with the community (which if we treated this like the Legislative branch of the US.... this could mean we'd win the vote...)

I personally don;t mind having the BBR having the final word, or having them to make rules to begin with. It is just how it all came to be is what bothers me. having a higher power is what we NEED, but only when it is controlled properly.

I honestly think that's how major issues need to be decided. With an elected Senate and an elected House. One is the BBR which is elected by the BBR themselves. The other is a large collective of people whom are representatives of their region/state voted by their region/state and votes on the manner that best interests their community. This causes some checks and balances between those in power. Also no player should be allowed to be in both - and the player doesn't even need to be a high level player. Just someone elected whom the people trust to give their opinion on a subject and vote about it honestly.

Spoiler

Holy ****, I think I'm onto something here.

Now to continue, I still want to explore the game down to the bones of it, because it is something we are all failing to do right now. I feel we need to reconstruct the game almost completely in order to do this right. We don;t have to toss away prior information gathered, we just have to reanalyze it harder then we previously have done.

 

[vVv Rapture]

I'm going to make a legitimate post on this probably tomorrow, but I quickly wanted to say props to RJ for the OP and shame on whoever said the DMR sucks because clearly you do not know how to pace your shots and follow bloom. Good day, sir.

 

[WindMajor]

Great post RJ. I'm really looking forward to what becomes of this thread, because this very thing was on my mind like two days ago.

If you need any help, send me a VM.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Great post! I really hope the dogmatic belief that altering brawl is automatically bad will die out it's either hurting the game or, at best, leaving us none the wiser.

 

[B!squick]

I know this has been brought up already, but come on. Comparing Halo to Brawl? Apples and oranges, this is not. It's more like... comparing a loaf of bread to a ******. You can eat them both, but other than that, they are both radically different.

 

[iRJi]

I know this has been brought up already, but come on. Comparing Halo to Brawl? Apples and oranges, this is not. It's more like... comparing a loaf of bread to a ******. You can eat them both, but other than that, they are both radically different.

I think you missed one big thing that I am trying to get at. What I am actually trying to state is that the difference of communities and how they use the tools available to make a competitive game. While we did break down this game to a high degree, I feel we are being to conservative because people are afraid of judgment of others. To properly exploit a game, we must look at every aspect, even things we possibly don't like, because if it can improve the game, then why not do it? There are ways to go about this without compromising everyone's judgment, we just need to put time in. I also understand the concept of " if it's not broken, don't fix it" but also keep in mind that innovations would not exist if we lived under that all the time.

I just quoted myself so I don't have to retype everything for you.

Edit:

Later, I am going add 2 very, very basic stages for download on here, and I want players feedback. I will also add videos of me and Rookie718 playing the 2 stages.

 

[Ganonsburg]

So the point, if I'm reading correctly, is not so much a comparison of Halo and Smash, but of their respective competitive communities and how those communities choose to approach the game.

By the way, this was a great read. The only problem I see with this is our community's unwillingness to change. We're more stubborn than a mule, unfortunately.

So I guess here's my question: what can individuals do to help your idea?

 

[GanonkingAbyss]

im not sure if anyone wants it here... but if u play custom stages on wifi there's almost no lag at all.
i was playing with someone who we normally have a terrible connection, but on the duelist stage it almost completely erased the lag and it was possible to tech till like 300% for me.

i know this is about the offline gamepley but it' make wifi better, and it'd be easier to practice that way for people who aren't able to go to tournaments every week, month, or have someone to practice with offline, etc.


also ive seen a few games on utube of people playing on custom stages in tourneys.

 

[Ripple]

WHAT?! a thread comparing 2 competitive games and 1 being smash? what is the BBR thinking in allowing this? since smash is different, we can't compare to something like halo.

BBR, ASSEMBLE!!!!

 

[AMKalmar]

There's no use trying to compare building maps in halo with building stages in brawl. The variables you have to consider for each are completely different. In halo, everyone is playing the same character so you build a map to have strategic positions and routes while making sure one tactic isn't overpowered. In brawl, you have to make sure none of the ~40 playable characters have broken tactics on the stage you create. That is, unless the tactic already exists on other stages (ie planking). Anyways, I realize you were just showing how the halo community has used the resources they were provided with and that is a good thing.

Our community talks too much and doesn't test enough. I would like to test things such as custom stages, damage ratios, even special brawl rules, but I don't have the time or the players to test with.

 

[Flayl]

im not sure if anyone wants it here... but if u play custom stages on wifi there's almost no lag at all.

How on earth do you do that?

 

[tsl]

It’s sickening to see such a good game being limited because people are not willing to go out of their way and test everything out.

Lol. Just lol.

Brawl is a terrible competitive game. Set it side-by-side with historically great competitive games and you will see that Brawl is a garbage competitive game.

Melee was a great competitive game, but it was a glorious accident. Sakurai saw what WE did to Melee and was sickened, so he set out from the get-go to make Brawl as UNCOMPETITIVE as possible. I'd say he succeeded. It's just this community's stubbornness (and MLG's sponsors, "Oooooh! You mean that new SHINY game, BRAWL?! We'll definitely support you!") that has allowed the game to limp on.

By the way, I'm not one of those arrogant Melee old-timers, for those who were about to make that assumption.

While I agree with your point that maybe not EVERYTHING has been done to exploit the game, I counter with this argument: WHAT'S THE POINT?! In the end, you will have a slightly-less-terrible piece of garbage, but it will still be garbage. There is only so little you can do when the game was DESIGNED to be uncompetitive. Unless the developers failed at that goal (THEY DIDN'T), there really isn't much you can do.

This community was signed off as dead when the Ban MK vote fell as a majority PRO BAN, but the majority wasn't high enough to enact an actual ban. I've just come to be sick of this community in general since then. This is a completely unfair generalization, but I feel it rings true anyway: Compared to other competitive communities, the Brawl community is just a bunch of whiny, over-privileged kids who can never agree on anything or get anything done. GGs Brawl.

If you REALLY care about this game, you can START by banning MK. Then we can talk about going places.

 

[SuSa]

There's no use trying to compare building maps in halo with building stages in brawl. The variables you have to consider for each are completely different. In halo, everyone is playing the same character so you build a map to have strategic positions and routes while making sure one tactic isn't overpowered. In brawl, you have to make sure none of the ~40 playable characters have broken tactics on the stage you create. That is, unless the tactic already exists on other stages (ie planking). Anyways, I realize you were just showing how the halo community has used the resources they were provided with and that is a good thing.

Our community talks too much and doesn't test enough. I would like to test things such as custom stages, damage ratios, even special brawl rules, but I don't have the time or the players to test with.

I pretty much said this in my first response, but you were far more direct.

tl;biri

So what made you decide to have Yaoi as your signature?

やおい

Yay for being able to read Hirigana.


私は日本語を学んでいる。

 

[Ripple]

rant

U mad bro?

talk to us when you have an idea what you're talking about. brawl was not purposefully designed to be anticompetitive. Thats just that way MOST peope view it. The smash series is unlike any other fighter out there. it is unique, and with that uniqueness, people fight over how it should be played. sakurai gave us like 30 different ways to play with hundreds of variables. without testing of at least half of them you have no right to call his game uncompetitive. for all we know, a simple change would make everyone happier AND leave in metaknight since you are so butthurt over him.

 

[SuSa]

U mad bro?

talk to us when you have an idea what you're talking about. brawl was not purposefully designed to be anticompetitive. Thats just that way MOST peope view it. The smash series is unlike any other fighter out there. it is unique, and with that uniqueness, people fight over how it should be played. sakurai gave us like 30 different ways to play with hundreds of variables. without testing of at least half of them you have no right to call his game uncompetitive. for all we know, a simple change would make everyone happier AND leave in metaknight since you are so butthurt over him.

And I quote Sakurai himself from this article

The game I worked on, Smash Bros.,
is a fighting game, but keeping in mind such reasoning, I set out to
make sure the game did not over-emphasize the notions of victory and
defeat. I won't go into too much detail, but the game was built so that
if a player is strong in combat, just doing the same thing over and
over again won't guarantee they'll always win over their opponents.
There is a mechanism of accidents occurring, balanced so that the
game's progress and results falter easily. Whether you win or lose, you
enjoy a hearty laugh, and move on to the next round. I think this makes
quite a good game.

It’s not like I think that serious competition is not interesting. It’s
good to have equals fighting intensely. Yet, I understand quite well
the feelings of children who just enjoy hitting a motionless opponent
in things like a training mode.


I don't watch sports much and I don't find them particularly exciting.
Whichever player or team wins, I always end up thinking "well done,
everyone!" I'm not really cheering for or supporting any one team. If
there was something like the World Cup going on, I'd be inclined to
cheer for Japan and would be excited, but if the opponent was putting
his heart into it, I'd feel that both were the same.

 

[EPsilon933]

Who cares about what Sakurai wants.

 

[SuSa]

Who cares about what Sakurai wants.

I was proving Ripple wrong.

brawl was not purposefully designed to be anticompetitive.

Yes it was.

 

[tsl]

So what made you decide to have Yaoi as your signature?

やおい

It's my tag, lol. tsl was just a random combination of letters for lack of creativity.

U mad bro?

talk to us when you have an idea what you're talking about. brawl was not purposefully designed to be anticompetitive. Thats just that way MOST peope view it. The smash series is unlike any other fighter out there. it is unique, and with that uniqueness, people fight over how it should be played. sakurai gave us like 30 different ways to play with hundreds of variables. without testing of at least half of them you have no right to call his game uncompetitive. for all we know, a simple change would make everyone happier AND leave in metaknight since you are so butthurt over him.

Plenty of people who know way more about this game than you or I have tested a ton of stuff over the last couple years. There really isn't much left that can be done. You just clearly have trouble seeing any of this from an objective viewpoint and are overly optimistic about how much can actually be done to make this game more competitive. If making this game more competitive was as simple as just changing a few settings, it would have been found and implemented by now.

Go ahead and test custom stages or 1.1 DR, but like I said, people way smarter than you or I have probably already tested it to all hell. What do you think people like Mew2King do all day? (Sorry Jason.)


I really don't dislike MK. But from an objective viewpoint, it's pretty obvious that removing him will make an overall better competitive game. Over half the community seemed to think so, and I'm sure that number is probably higher now.


Allow me to present a comparison for those in denial that Brawl is actually a terrible competitive game.

Smash 64 is ALL about combos. There are TONS of inescapable combos, many of them practically 0-deaths. So what does that entire game revolve around? Well first, tech skill ... being able to flawlessly execute these combos like a machine. But once you've got that down and you have two players at that level, what does the game boil down to? A single hit. Landing that ONE hit that initiates the combo. A single hit = a whole stock.

Brawl on the other hand, is the complete opposite. Lack of hitstun and an all-you-can-eat buffet of defensive options mean that this game is, for the most part, HIT-FOR-HIT. Every single hit on your opponent no matter how big or small has to be painstakingly earned. You earn a hit, and then that's it. It's back to dancing back and forth with your opponent again, looking for an opening to land another, single, anticlimactic hit. People are pretty split in opinion when it comes to whether this kind of game is good or bad. Some people LIKE that the game is a constant battle of wits and that EVERY SINGLE HIT has to be painstakingly earned and that you have to be CONSTANTLY reading your opponent. (Read: That's ALL you can do ...) Other people hate this boring, monotonous, highly-defensive (read: campy) style of play.

But wait, there's a third game in this mix: Melee. Melee had a balance of both. Everyone thinks Melee is all about combos, but if you compare it to the other two games, it really falls right in the middle. There are SOME combos. And there is also a lot of dancing back and forth, looking for those openings to land hits, trying to read your opponent, it's just not as apparent to people unfamiliar with the game because the game is so fast-paced. Not EVERY hit leads to a devastating combo, though SOME do. The game is a balance of technical comboing skill and strategic maneuvering. In my opinion, THIS is a good competitive game. The game mechanics themselves are inherently balanced (I'm not talking about the characters.) It offers something for everyone, and a WEALTH of playing styles develop and thrive. The result is a game with high strategic and technical depth.

Seriously, Brawl is just bad.

 

[SuSa]

Sorry Yaoi, but saying Brawl is bad is subjective and stating you like the balancing between combos or an all out combo game.

Spoiler

Not that Brawl isn't bad...

I'm sick of people comparing the 3 smashes, they may as well all be entirely different games (oh wait, they practically are) that just run along the same franchise.

This is like comparing Star Fox 64 with that Star Fox game on the GC. (Forget it's name)

One's flying in a ship shooting stuff, the others a walk-around adventure-style game. Can you really compare the two fairly? No. Are you to say Star Fox 64 is bad because of what it is? You may think it is, but that doesn't make it fact. Others loved Star Fox 64....

To be honest, I actually enjoy Brawl like this. It's a constant battling to find that opening, and you're wrong in a sense about it being hit-for-hit... ever heard of momentum?

Brawl is about finding an opening that can help you create momentum to take the lead over your opponent until you lose such momentum. I find this gameplay interesting, the only problem is a certain something in this game completely ignores most of what makes this game good, throws it in a gutter, pisses on it, and laughs.

But people refuse to fix that, so we're left with a crappy, game.

 

[GanonkingAbyss]

How on earth do you do that?

theres a code for it, u just have to make sure both people have the stage, and they both have to play on it first, the code just makes random select a certain stage that goes to the last custom stage played on.

 

[tsl]

I'm sick of people comparing the 3 smashes, they may as well all be entirely different games (oh wait, they practically are) that just run along the same franchise.

This is like comparing Star Fox 64 with that Star Fox game on the GC. (Forget it's name)

One's flying in a ship shooting stuff, the others a walk-around adventure-style game. Can you really compare the two fairly? No. Are you to say Star Fox 64 is bad because of what it is? You may think it is, but that doesn't make it fact. Others loved Star Fox 64....

This logic is flawed because, just as you said, the two Star Fox games were designed from the get-go to be two games in completely different genres. The three Smash games, however, share pretty much the exact same concept; all three were designed to be 2D fighters (with 3D graphics) that focus on a "ring-outs only" theme of gameplay. Say what you want about the differences in design strategy behind each one, they all share this same core/backbone and can correctly be categorized into one genre.

You bringing up the Star Fox franchise is like saying, "Look at this dog and this cat. You can't compare the two," which is true, but if we were to apply that analogy to Smash, all three Smash games would be the same animal, perhaps different breeds of dog, w/e, you get the idea.

To be honest, I actually enjoy Brawl like this. It's a constant battling to find that opening, and you're wrong in a sense about it being hit-for-hit... ever heard of momentum?

Momentum can apply to practically any multiplayer game. You are right that calling Brawl hit-for-hit is an oversimplification that doesn't really apply to the game in actual practice; I was simply trying to break the three games down to their simplest core mechanics from a competitive standpoint. Momentum is more an abstract concept than a measurable mechanic.

Brawl is about finding an opening that can help you create momentum to take the lead over your opponent until you lose such momentum. I find this gameplay interesting, the only problem is a certain something in this game completely ignores most of what makes this game good, throws it in a gutter, pisses on it, and laughs.

But people refuse to fix that, so we're left with a crappy, game.

This. This, this, this a thousand times over.

And don't get me wrong, I don't so much dislike Brawl either. I just understand how to see it in context and from an objective viewpoint: It is not a GOOD competitive game (it would be an OKAY competitive game if MK was banned.) This is something the majority of our competitive community fails to understand.

 

[SuSa]

This logic is flawed because, just as you said, the two Star Fox games were designed from the get-go to be two games in completely different genres. The three Smash games, however, share pretty much the exact same concept; all three were designed to be 2D fighters (with 3D graphics) that focus on a "ring-outs only" theme of gameplay. Say what you want about the differences in design strategy behind each one, they all share this same core/backbone and can correctly be categorized into one genre.

You bringing up the Star Fox franchise is like saying, "Look at this dog and this cat. You can't compare the two," which is true, but if we were to apply that analogy to Smash, all three Smash games would be the same animal, perhaps different breeds of dog, w/e, you get the idea.

Let us group Smash Bros with MvC, BlazBlu, Sreet Fighter, Killer Instinct, and all the 2D fighters before it. They all share a backbone and general playstyle.

But Smash Bros only shares the general concept "We use Nintendo characters, har har"

We'll use your analogy then. Three different breeds of dogs, would you treat your German Sheperd the same way as your Chihuahua? Same grooming? Same food? Same care? Of course not, you treat them the best for their respective breed. They may be similar, eat similar foods, but they are not similar.

Momentum can apply to practically any multiplayer game. You are right that calling Brawl hit-for-hit is an oversimplification that doesn't really apply to the game in actual practice; I was simply trying to break the three games down to their simplest core mechanics from a competitive standpoint. Momentum is more an abstract concept than a measurable mechanic.

I understand what you were trying to get at, just reminding people that momentum plays an extremely large role in a hit-for-hit game.

This. This, this, this a thousand times over.

And don't get me wrong, I don't so much dislike Brawl either. I just understand how to see it in context and from an objective viewpoint: It is not a GOOD competitive game (it would be an OKAY competitive game if MK was banned.) This is something the majority of our competitive community fails to understand.

Not going to refute this.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I like using metaknight. I really do I have fun playing as him I even love metaknight dittos. I had no issue siding metaknight and falco (to deal with metaknight) and practicing with metaknight for hours on end so I wouldn't have a problem with him. I really don't have an issue with the character BUTTTTTTTTT

the game would be better without him. The game is more POPULAR without him (see hobo tournaments which MORE people came to MK banned tournies). The community will never flat out ban metaknight but I won't be surprised if more and more MK banned tournaments pop up and a gradual shift occurs.


Honestly MK needs the boot if this game wants to be more competitive

 

[iRJi]

I would ask to keep the complaints about brawl being just a bad game out of it. I would quote and break down your argument, but Susa has done so to a degree where I don't find it needed, so I am just going to say this and move on.

Anyway, In a short bit, I will be uploading 4 basic, custom stages (Seriously, it is very basic) and I would like you guys to play on them. I will have videos of myself playing on this as well for people who can't play on them, but for anyone who does play on this, if you can get videos of playing them it would help. After I have some videos up, i will add part 2 of my statement as to why the builder system should be looked into. I am not here just to speculate, I am here to actually show everyone things that they have been over looking.

_______________________________________________

Edit:

Here are the stage that I want all of you to use and test:

Test Stage 3- http://www.mediafire.com/?f46i8f71bnibk9g
Test Stage 4- http://www.mediafire.com/?w7i7t6mmv2sgggp

If you guys can get videos, then please do so. I will have my own videos up by Sunday when I get back home, but until then I want to here all of your input. The stages are just very basic stages, nothing serious at all. I just want to hear how you guys feel about something this basic being at least a starter stage, and how it varies to the other stages we have now. Do comparisons, analyze everything. I will give my own input as soon as I can. This has been added to the OP as well.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Who cares about whether brawl is a good competitive game or not, it's completely irrelevant to the issue at hand here. What the OP is asking is why on earth are we not willing to make the game better by adding our own stages? We could make stages, unlike those present in the game, designed for competitive play yet we don't because we of a present dogmatism which would have us believe that any modification or change of the game is automatically bad and hence shouldn't not be made unless absolutely necessary.

The burden of proof here is on the naysayer's and I've not seen them come up with anything convincing hitherto.

 

[SuSa]

We don't because while the possibility is there, it's too glitchy and would be bad for competitive play.

Only blocks have ledges. ONLY BLOCKS. This means no ledge would have a lip - not a huge issue IMO.

However if you put two blocks touching eachother by the corner, it's possible to glitch through it.

Certain sloped platforms allow characters like Sonic to teleport. Teleporting = do we really want this? "Well don't use slopes"

Okay, so now we have blocks, platforms, and a few random shapes...

It's just not feasable to create a competitive level that's fair for a good portion of the cast - and how would you make this standard?

Everyone that attends the tournament would need to have this stage. That's the major issue.

 

[Spelt]

it takes like 3 minutes to make a custom stage.
:|

 

[SuSa]

And how do we ensure that the block isn't just a little bit more to the left? Also when you're using 40+ setups you're talking nearly 2 hours just making the custom stages, and another 30 minutes likely ensuring they're all the same.

And that's just one stage. What if we had 3? 4? Are you saying we spend nearly an entire day just setting up the wii's with custom stages?

Again - the major issue with this is every setup needs to have every stage