Half Life: Full Life Consequences Mafia - Game Over - Who Won?

[#HBC | Gorf]

@Mod you should, liek, get prods a'brewin.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Gorf, it bothers me that you are skimming.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I don't like the Werekill lynch. Yes we would get connections or whatever, but he's a pretty hard core town read for me once you look at the big picture instead of just ingame.

Add that on top of the fact that he already pretty much quit mafia once, and you've got a recipe for someone who's going to be preposterously defensive as town. Hell, I'd even say he would have been more likely to fighter harder and longer before the replacement if he were scum since he'd have allies to ***** to and to keep him focused.

Because that's about the same thing as EE looking at Werekill's play in comparison. This is also based around an assumption, that Werekill would do this. Then there's also the possibility of one of the 4 main inactives being his scum partner, and he had no one to talk to during his time in here anyway.

You're going to have to bring up something good to convince me not to lynch Werekill ToDay, that doesn't involve meta, because EE has already shown that the meta argument is NOT in WK's favour.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Gorf, it bothers me that you are skimming.

Yep, I'm scum for skimming.

 

[Jim Morrison]

What a disgusting post, I'm just saying it bothers me and I hope you'll stop it.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Yep, I'm scum for posting that.

 

[Evil Eye]

EE's meta from Bebop is correct. BUT I heavily disagree with that it still applies to him as a player. And when I disagree with that, then I suddenly find myself disagreeing with nearly all of EE's case since its built around 'this is how Werekill SHOULD be acting as town'.

MMmmh, while it's a fair assertion that a lot of my case relies on my meta and how I feel Werekill should be acting as town I do think I pointed out plenty of behavioral errs that are distinct from mere emotionality that are scummy. It's just all so intrinsically tied together... because, this is Werekill.

Big thing I'm concerned with is looking at Werekill outside of the game (especially in regards to EE in the GMT and his attitude towards mafia). The GMT thing I won't delve into beyond the fact that Werekill being on edge towards people is not something that is even remotely unlikely. Add that on top of the fact that he already pretty much quit mafia once, and you've got a recipe for someone who's going to be preposterously defensive as town. Hell, I'd even say he would have been more likely to fighter harder and longer before the replacement if he were scum since he'd have allies to ***** to and to keep him focused.

I just don't understand how you could reach this conclusion. I know the GMT stuff you're talking about, sure (and for those not in the know that's the BRoom's Good Mood Thread). Yes, being on edge towards people isn't unlikely. But I've made a clear case not only based on what we know about how Werekill plays the game (as both alignments, one of these games being one you hosted and agreed WK was absurdly obvscum!) but also the utterly scummy nature of the AtE he is dropping.

Yes Werekill feels an overwhelming need to be "right" regardless of the issues. Yes, that COULD explain SOME of his behavior. It's the manifestation of what little uncertainty I've got. But that still doesn't explain away the clearest distinction I can possibly offer of town WK vs scum WK; when town Werekill blew up and started dropping the volcanic AtE, you could see the sincerity of it because there was no gain for his faction to be seen, he only made it worse and risked the wincon entirely. In this game, and in UTrick'd, when Werekill AtEs and plays his little charades there is a visible gain that can be pulled. I refuse to accept that as coincidence, especially if Werekill is as increasingly irrational as you've suggested.

I just do not see this level of defensiveness with WKtown. There is too much scum-friendly mentality present and too little (almost NOTHING) of my town WK experience. If he's town why don't even the most basic building blocks of how he does things line up? At LEAST that much should.

[snip]

Yeah I know that if I really want to stop this Werekill wagon I'm going to have to find a new target, and I will get on that as soon as I can muster up the willpower to get back on board.

Love to see that.

In the meantime, you stated that Werekill contacting Ryker and I differentiates us from him if he flips scum. But right now you have him as a piping hot town read.... how does that affect this rather concrete and pointed observation?

 

[Evil Eye]

Musclebro please don't be scum

 

[Evil Eye]

Why don't you ask EE about his readslist while you're at it?

What were you after with that one? I thought your point was just "why don't you ask this guy to do some **** he doesn't do too while you're at it" but you kept at it which tells me you had a reason to be askin' it.

 

[Jim Morrison]

What makes you say that EE?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Above post was @488, not 489

 

[Evil Eye]

ehhh I don't really wanna answer that, tbh. Right now I'm watching for something, not making an accusation, if that clarifies.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

EE I can see the validity in what you're saying, I just don't think its going to yield the scum flip you're expecting.

In the meantime, you stated that Werekill contacting Ryker and I differentiates us from him if he flips scum. But right now you have him as a piping hot town read.... how does that affect this rather concrete and pointed observation?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but if he DOES flip scum he's effectively confirmed the two strongest players in the game as town (or rather, not the same alignment as he is). Otherwise, he would have been able to legally contact both of you and talk about whatever the hell he wanted to in regards to the game.

And that is bad news for scum. Not just bad news, but like catastrophically bad news. Bad enough that even if he was going crazy from the pressure I don't think he'd try it as scum since it would **** over his whole faction in the biggest way.

 

[Evil Eye]

I'd like to know what others think about the bolded. Honestly, I think it's downplaying how I started off incredibly hard and I didn't like it. His reasons for having me on the dislike list are pretty ugly too, especially when he says I'm "incredibly null", and I doubt that sentence or two really is reason enough to dislike me, especially because he doesn't think it's scummy, he just disagrees.

This is kind of a dodgy spot for me, because I can see your POV re: not liking starting on an arbitrary **** list. But I'll get back to that in a bit. Honestly most of this doesn't bother me. You got the better of Ryker as the S in SvT recently and that's never going to exit his mind when he deals with you, ever. He presumably feels he underestimated you there, or just your ability to be slippery scum, and will forever give you extra scrutiny for it.

That's meta though. For this game? Well... he's right that your primary accomplishment at the time was starting a conversation. You got us out of RVS but I haven't really felt a strong sense of direction afterward. So on this he's right. I also, for reasons I can't go into, do believe Ryker is going to be trying to read you on a sentence-by-sentence basis. However I felt that I could see attempts on your part to analyze both Jimbo's responses to the first pressure and also pull people into the dustball and get a few pokes at them as well. This I liked well enough.

So the **** list thing. Meta ahoy. Back in the days where we played skype mafia like every night, I started to get a pattern of behavior for Ryker. As town he would not give me his trust, but he would also remain collaborative and keep quieter about it. As scum however he often made a dog and pony show of reading me, and would try to find arbitrary reasons to put me on the **** list from the get-go. This would effectively strive to put me under his bootheel and give me a weak position in the game, and depending on the town we were dealing with, it was potent.

I went into Lost Almost-Mafia having never said a peep about this observation and fully expected Ryker to try the same **** if he rolled scum. This is why I was always looking elsewhere until the last Day, as in Lost he seemed to "read me" correctly and then was both vocal and subtle enough about it. In this game I really have gotten a vibe that he is concerned with damaging my position (and, it seems, Xonar's) in a vacuum. For the sake of as much. The fact that when called on it he retreats to saws like "a null stance is a scum stance" bothers me.

But I have at least seen some collaborative movements from him, and when called on some pseudo-bull**** early on he actually conceded my point instead of doing his best impression of a better Werekill and finding some twisty way to justify it. And Ryker like myself tends to keep the larger majority of his thoughts to himself, so hey. I can see some angles he might be after.

Fencey, I know. But that's what I got to give.

 

[Evil Eye]

@GMuscles: Yeah, I was asking what this connection you've found yields if WK flips town. Nothing? Something? Surely you have thoughts on this.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Oh if he flips town? **** if I know, I'd have to actually read things again

 

[Evil Eye]

As to your counterpoint, I mean. It's an interesting possibility. But I think at this point, through buttfrustration and general scrumbling, all thoughts of what connections he's leaving would have left WK's mind, and what little game attitude he has left would just be set on frenziedly defending his actions.

That's all not to acknowledge the strong point that WK, as a poor (and still quite new overall) player probably gives very little thought to connections he's putting up in the first place.

 

[Evil Eye]

@Ninja:

Acknowledged.

 

[Evil Eye]

marshy you've been in the thread so many times please start being a presence. I miss your rolling eyes and your smooth cocoa brown skin

strongest of homos

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

@GMuscles: Yeah, I was asking what this connection you've found yields if WK flips town. Nothing? Something? Surely you have thoughts on this.

Oh if he flips town? **** if I know, I'd have to actually read things again

Wait **** you meant just in regards to you and Ryker. That's completely and utterly null since you're the two people he would have messaged anyway.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

There's a difference between starting a discussion in RVS and starting a discussion in RVS in which you actually get reads, get out of the RVS and involve people actively.

I also, for reasons I can't go into, do believe Ryker is going to be trying to read you on a sentence-by-sentence basis.

When will you be able to get into this?

 

[Evil Eye]

heh I literally can't even answer that question.

Ryker is the only person who can verify it, which I imagine doesn't make it any better, but it is what it is.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Goddamnit, then I throw that question at Ryker.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Why is it so important to you to know how someone is getting a read on you?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

It's more interest than it is anything else. Now that EE hinted towards it, I wanna know. Could've asked out of thread, but might as well post it here, as it's relevant to the game.

 

[Jim Morrison]

It hardly sounds as mostly interest if you're that set on knowing about it, going from EE to Ryker with your question (in quite an impatient manner).

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

...I had to go from EE to Ryker because Ryker is the only one who can answer.

Obviously there are more motivations (note: mostly interest) like having a better view of how Ryker will handle me as a whole and what sets me apart from other players (why doesn't he apply that style to others?) and then there's the facet of peace of mind.

You're looking for ghosts. How is often very important in getting a read.

If I were to tell you that I'm reading you on a sentence-by-sentence basis, and you wrote three sentences that looked scummy to me, and then I'd stick to that scum read until eternity, would you call that fair, especially when I don't treat others that way?
Hell, if I applied that to you, you would've been lynched by now.

 

[Jim Morrison]

It depends on how good of a player someone is, how expierenced etc. Players like you and EE have a great deal of expierence in mafia, on both alignments, and know what will be looked for and will definitely watch out for that if you were scum. Scumslips from you or EE wouldn't be large things, but subtle slips that could be in just one sentence. This is why I think reading you (or EE) sentence-by-sentence isn't a terrible idea at all.
If you were to apply the same thing to me, it would make reading much harder. since I say dumb stuff that can be seen as scummy, regardless of my alignment. The point is that you look at the bigger picture in play with less expierenced players. Much better players, their bigger picture will almost always look townie, so you're looking for more subtle things.

What is terrible, however, is what you said, reading three scummy sentences and then sticking to a scum read until eternity. Where you read scum sentence-by-sentence, you'll also have to look at the town side of a player and have to weigh it off (not equally, wouldn't make sense) to see if they're actually playing a scummy game.


But this is all my take on mafia and it's not much related to this game anymore so I'll shut up now and let Ryker answer.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I hate you so much for answering out of turn.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Yeah, I was contemplating wether it was my turn to answer, but you basically asked me it but now that I read it back it was kinda clear that it was rhetorical so oops

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

What were you after with that one? I thought your point was just "why don't you ask this guy to do some **** he doesn't do too while you're at it" but you kept at it which tells me you had a reason to be askin' it.

I'm just trying to figure out why Bronar's been so critical of all of the smallest things I do this game despite clearly having issues with others being as critical of him.

Like, the whole wording thing earlier, or when I forgot "not" in a post, or now this. It seems like he's been hyper-focused on my slot and I can't find a good reason for it.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

This is kind of a dodgy spot for me, because I can see your POV re: not liking starting on an arbitrary **** list. But I'll get back to that in a bit. Honestly most of this doesn't bother me. You got the better of Ryker as the S in SvT recently and that's never going to exit his mind when he deals with you, ever. He presumably feels he underestimated you there, or just your ability to be slippery scum, and will forever give you extra scrutiny for it.

That's meta though. For this game? Well... he's right that your primary accomplishment at the time was starting a conversation. You got us out of RVS but I haven't really felt a strong sense of direction afterward. So on this he's right. I also, for reasons I can't go into, do believe Ryker is going to be trying to read you on a sentence-by-sentence basis. However I felt that I could see attempts on your part to analyze both Jimbo's responses to the first pressure and also pull people into the dustball and get a few pokes at them as well. This I liked well enough.

So the **** list thing. Meta ahoy. Back in the days where we played skype mafia like every night, I started to get a pattern of behavior for Ryker. As town he would not give me his trust, but he would also remain collaborative and keep quieter about it. As scum however he often made a dog and pony show of reading me, and would try to find arbitrary reasons to put me on the **** list from the get-go. This would effectively strive to put me under his bootheel and give me a weak position in the game, and depending on the town we were dealing with, it was potent.

I went into Lost Almost-Mafia having never said a peep about this observation and fully expected Ryker to try the same **** if he rolled scum. This is why I was always looking elsewhere until the last Day, as in Lost he seemed to "read me" correctly and then was both vocal and subtle enough about it. In this game I really have gotten a vibe that he is concerned with damaging my position (and, it seems, Xonar's) in a vacuum. For the sake of as much. The fact that when called on it he retreats to saws like "a null stance is a scum stance" bothers me.

But I have at least seen some collaborative movements from him, and when called on some pseudo-bull**** early on he actually conceded my point instead of doing his best impression of a better Werekill and finding some twisty way to justify it. And Ryker like myself tends to keep the larger majority of his thoughts to himself, so hey. I can see some angles he might be after.

Fencey, I know. But that's what I got to give.

To back you up on this, Ryker, as scum, tends not to give a damn the first couple of pages until the game really picks up. If you count AM's math pun bull****, I can think of at least four games just in dGames alone where Ryker just ****s around for the first five to ten pages and then finally comes in once people goad him enough.

For example, in Lost Mafia, he spends his first experience in the thread simply bullying Mentos and one other player whom I forget off the top of my head until he actually commits to rereading. He did it in UPickemon. He did it in ****tales. He did it in FF9 too, if you count AM math pun bull****. Ryker as scum tends to **** around in the early game. Unlike townRyker, who has the obligation of "I can't trust these idiots to lynch scum" and comes into the game fulfilling that, scumRyker feels no motivation to lynch. He just sits back and finds his opportune moment to enter the game.

So you can understand why I'm worried when his first post in the game is this:

Really? So does everyone. I'm a pretty ****ing busy guy.

What's so important that I need to be heavily involved with the first five pages of the game? Because I'm thinking of skipping it.

That sends off all kinds of red flags because that's the exact type of behavior I expect out of scumRyker.

This isn't to say that I don't see townRyker at work here, just that my read is not as strong as it should be by now and I'm worried about it.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Anyway @Laundry Quotes 3 and 4 from the top of your post don't really carry much. He says EE's not defining in the post Xonar refers to... I say he is? And if he really felt that, why not mention it at all? He says he wants EE's stance on Werekill before he gives HIS stance, giving the impression that EE's not been giving a stance... when it's clear that he had been? I'm sure just about everybody would agree on that. I already spoke about Quote 5.

Honestly, I just pulled every quote that he was talking about as a reference point and then talked about them, regardless of weight or content. It was relevant to the subject at hand, so I picked it up. o:

@Your question about my two posts, I'm not try'na sweep em under the rug. Her replacing out is her replacing out to me. That's about it. If I were to make a case on Werekill I'd not use that at all cuz it seems pretty weak mentioning how she may or may not have replaced out to try and not condemn her slot; I'd just stick with the vast amount of scumminess that she attained prior to the fact.

But this still begs the question of why bring it up at all? If you wouldn't use it to back a case on someone who you've talked about being a scumpick of yours, why did you mention it?

 

[#HBC | marshy]

whats going on!!

lol @ me getting wagoned in a game i wasnt even in. i feel highly honored

lol @ every john freeman gif posted in this game so far

lol @ captain crybaby

dgames seems to be very open about its high libido nowadays. ee sticking his head up glyphs ***, xonar rubbing his hands all over ees *** and confessing that he wants to make love with him, the recent yearning for my smooth, tanned, cocoa-y goodness...wait theres a game of mafia to be played here

hey kantrip in #287 you say that you like reads that rkyer had recently posted. among those reads were disliking ee and xonar. can you expand on any thoughts you have regarding those scumbagsplayers?

xonar #312 has you declaring that doors is the scummiest maw****a in this thang behind scumkill. is that still the case?

yo washedlaundry early in the game you stated pretty visibly that ryker was a townread yet recently in #512 you mention how his first post before your declaration of his protown alignment sent off red flags leaving me asking myself why you would ever say that in the first place?

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I thought he was town because immediately after his first post, he actually complied and started reading rather than sitting there and being a stubborn *** about it. Usually when he does this kinda ****, that's the type of reaction I expect out of him. After rereading a little and reconsidering the content he put out, I'm starting to question that initial read of him.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

But this still begs the question of why bring it up at all? If you wouldn't use it to back a case on someone who you've talked about being a scumpick of yours, why did you mention it?

Thinking about it idk, just the fact that people were using that against the slot made me go nah, that's null. I guess I DON'T have much reason but

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

That was definitely NOT a quote by Gorf.

 

[JTB]

postin'

I like a werekill lynch toDay. aside from the defensiveness, he's brought up two solid connections that can only be answered with his flip, the messages sent to ryker/EE following his ragequit. with a scumWerekill flip, the two of them look extremely good and narrows our list down to the last two possible partners

likewise, with a townWerekill flip, WL shoots up pretty far on my list. his entry on the wagon is fine, but what alarms me is 168. Prior to this post, Werekill was at L-3 and definitely a possible lynch candidate. At this point, any interaction between Werekill and the remaining player list can't be legitimate because no one is going to associate themselves with such an ugly slot (and as far as what I've read, no one has except Glyph). By now, scum has already been given the chance to make themselves look better by supporting that trainwreck of a slot.

To touch on Glyph's entry post regarding Werekill, I don't like it but it's nothing to sway me towards town or scum. I strongly dislike how EE/Glyph have brought meta heavily into their opinions of Werekill solely from my perspective since I know nothing about the player at all and it would require me to read games I don't plan on reading to see if what has been said matches up.

Gorf's case on Ryker is terrible and reaching as **** and I would expect better of him. TBH, I got the impression of really bad town play rather than scum, but it's something I'll be following.

regarding Xonar/JM, I have them both as null. Xonar just opened discussion with his gambit and I'm finding it difficult seeing what his read on JM is. All he's contributed to the game so far is breaking us out of RVS at a quicker pace than normal.

I'll be back in the mornin'.

 

[JTB]

oh, and vote: werekill

 

[Jim Morrison]

JTB do you think there's not much else to be gained out of ToDay?