Guide to how ZSS is one of the best survivalists in the game...

[James Sparrow]

It's funny how people still think zss' recovery sucks. Like in that roy matchup thread, the guy gives her 2/5 stars and then only changes it to 3/5 when snakeee says he's wrong. LOL. Her recovery is so good.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I know its one of the better ones probably if you play smart.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

It's funny how people still think zss' recovery sucks. Like in that roy matchup thread, the guy gives her 2/5 stars and then only changes it to 3/5 when snakeee says he's wrong. LOL. Her recovery is so good.

I'm pretty sure Roy is an impossibly hard matchup for ZSS.

 

[ph00tbag]

Roy beats ZSS really hard. Harder than Mewtwo even, and that one scares the hell out of me.

 

[Adapt]

wait... I thought Mewtwo was the best character in the game... Roy is better?

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Neither of those 2 can compare to the unbeatable pichu...

 

[ph00tbag]

wait... I thought Mewtwo was the best character in the game... Roy is better?

Mewtwo is still the best. He just doesn't do as well against ZSS as Roy.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Exactly where do the invincibility frames in down+b end?

Because I know I get smashed out of it while I'm still blinking.

 

[Adapt]

Exactly where do the invincibility frames in down+b end?

Because I know I get smashed out of it while I'm still blinking.

I want to know this as well.

I asked 3god about the frame data for down-B and he said he would look into it when he had time, but he never got around to it.

 

[hotgarbage]

Her down-b has 12 frames of invincibility iirc. Her last invincibility frame is when she first becomes horizontal, so something like 1/3 of the jump (probably less) is invincible. I'll look into when the invincibility frames kick in. (if it's immediate or 1-2 frames after the move starts)

 

[FreakingMethodiC]

Down B is the answer for escaping just about anything.

- Down B will get you out of almost any sort of combo almost instantly because of how quickly it can be done out of hitstun and it's invincibility frames.
- ZSS can NOT be chain grabbed by Falco, Yoshi, or anyone else if you down B fast enough.
- For one example of how well it works, Chu Dat was unable to follow up with anything at all while I was at 0% with Kirby's forward throw o_O.

Sooo.... DeDeDe?

Gonna assume doesnt work on IC's cus it's a near instant grab.

 

[James Sparrow]

dedede can't chain grab zss to begin with.

 

[Snakeee]

dedede can't chain grab zss to begin with.

Not technically, but he does anyway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIs9fqRxSZo

...I don't think down B is possible before hitting the ground though.

 

[ph00tbag]

Not technically, but he does anyway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIs9fqRxSZo

...I don't think down B is possible before hitting the ground though.

It's more like a tech chase. He can actually pick up the regrab if he keeps running and you tech away. I imagine he can shieldgrab if you tech in place, or he can ftilt, which works if you tech towards him.

It's not a chain grab, but it's still frustrating.

 

[3GOD]

I want to know this as well.

I asked 3god about the frame data for down-B and he said he would look into it when he had time, but he never got around to it.

I have been meaning to get back to you about this, but I wasn't too sure about one number...

Her down-b has 12 frames of invincibility iirc. Her last invincibility frame is when she first becomes horizontal, so something like 1/3 of the jump (probably less) is invincible. I'll look into when the invincibility frames kick in. (if it's immediate or 1-2 frames after the move starts)

...I got 12 frames of invincibility as well, so I think that's correct.

Down-B Data:
Invincible: 1 – 12
Can jump out: Frame 50
Attack hit box: Frame 27
Can footstool: Frame 19

 

[Adapt]

Awesome! Now to add this to the attack statistics thread

Now does anyone know whether the flipstool jumps from hitboxes or hurtboxes (or something else?)

 

[FreakingMethodiC]

It's more like a tech chase. He can actually pick up the regrab if he keeps running and you tech away. I imagine he can shieldgrab if you tech in place, or he can ftilt, which works if you tech towards him.

It's not a chain grab, but it's still frustrating.

I had Ryan K pull that on me on WiFi. Sure we both live in NY but i was pretty amazed he was tech chasen me. It's really annoying when u think he's gonna chase ya only to roll into a F smash as fox cus of lag.

But yeah it's the same with Fox it's a huge tech game since he can't CG either character. But would it be wise to you ZSS against Falco? That bird is trouble sometimes for fox.

Thought it might be a good idea if the Dsmash on falco worked like it does on fox. But i doubt it.

 

[ph00tbag]

ZSS isn't totally destroyed by Falco, but she will be easily shut down by blaster and reflector. The D-smash chain doesn't work so well, and I tend not to rely on it. Rather I use it to get Falco off the stage, then edgeguard his Phantasm.

An interesting thing: some frames of usmash will knock Falco out of Phantasm. Seriously, this guy's recovery is not very good.

 

[James Sparrow]

I suck at edge gaurding falco

 

[NickRiddle]

Not technically, but he does anyway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIs9fqRxSZo

...I don't think down B is possible before hitting the ground though.

If you DI up and airdodge, you can get a down-b / jab / dtilt / utilt (Not sure about the last two)...Or you can run away / spotdodge if you're not in the mood to attack. (Running away only works if the D3 expects you to tech)

 

[ph00tbag]

I suck at edge gaurding falco

You may be privy to better Falcos than I. I've found that if they Phantasm onto the stage too much, it's best just to wait roughly in the center and charge some kind of smash attack. If they're more guarded, you can probably edgeguard more aggressively with dsmash on the ledge.

 

[FreakingMethodiC]

ZSS isn't totally destroyed by Falco, but she will be easily shut down by blaster and reflector. The D-smash chain doesn't work so well, and I tend not to rely on it. Rather I use it to get Falco off the stage, then edgeguard his Phantasm.

An interesting thing: some frames of usmash will knock Falco out of Phantasm. Seriously, this guy's recovery is not very good.

**** =.= Falco really rocks the boat vs the two major characters i play, Fox and Diddy.

 

[FadedImage]

Found out some interesting information:

To survive to higher percents off the side, your best course of action is to airdodge, immediately followed by a down-b towards the stage. This is contrary to the popular belief that an aerial is the best course of action.

However, to survive vertically, an aerial is your best option. After you DI to the side, hold down on the control-stick and press C-Stick up to perform a fast-falled up-air. This will keep you alive for an extra 6-10%.

I've tested fairly extensively on these options, if anyone finds an even better method to contest this, by all means. I just thought it would be a good addition to our recovery thread. d:

 

[Snakeee]

Found out some interesting information:

To survive to higher percents off the side, your best course of action is to airdodge, immediately followed by a down-b towards the stage. This is contrary to the popular belief that an aerial is the best course of action.

However, to survive vertically, an aerial is your best option. After you DI to the side, hold down on the control-stick and press C-Stick up to perform a fast-falled up-air. This will keep you alive for an extra 6-10%.

I've tested fairly extensively on these options, if anyone finds an even better method to contest this, by all means. I just thought it would be a good addition to our recovery thread. d:

I already came up with that and it's edited on the first page lol. But, are you sure an airdodge first helps in recovery? I just use down B.

 

[Bouse]

Zero Suit Samus shouldn't die... ever. Snakeee proved at Harry Potter that even when spiked by a Yoshi... Zero Suit lives.

Hooray obscene tether.

 

[FadedImage]

I already came up with that and it's edited on the first page lol. But, are you sure an airdodge first helps in recovery? I just use down B.

I know the down-b thing is on the front page, but you need to perform an airdodge first for best results. Also, you didn't mention anywhere using an up-air to survive vertically. It helps quite a bit, since a big ZSS weakness is her weight.

 

[Snakeee]

I know the down-b thing is on the front page, but you need to perform an airdodge first for best results. Also, you didn't mention anywhere using an up-air to survive vertically. It helps quite a bit, since a big ZSS weakness is her weight.

Oh, I thought I did mention that. Thanks for pointing it out then, I'll add it.

EDIT: I added it. I also changed a few lines that made the down B footstool sound so revolutionary lol. And I added that an aerial can be used against someone that is edgehogging you if you can't use down B (and their invincibility runs out)

 

[FadedImage]

I added that an aerial can be used against someone that is edgehogging you if you can't use down B (and their invincibility runs out)

Good point, I just started training myself to do that recently. It's insane how many things you have to keep in mind while recovering with ZSS, lol.

 

[FadedImage]

found out something else that's pretty sexy about down-b. Even when tap-jump is off, if you simply hold up while in the down-b animation it will footstool as soon as possible. Pretty convenient for recovering, don't need to spam jump 50,000 times in the hopes that you'll footstool. You also don't end up wasting your second jump when trying to footstool.

 

[Snakeee]

Wow I didn't know that. Thanks faded image. I mean I have the timing down well for that, but to be automatically frame perfect with it is awesome.

 

[Mr.Ious]

found out something else that's pretty sexy about down-b. Even when tap-jump is off, if you simply hold up while in the down-b animation it will footstool as soon as possible. Pretty convenient for recovering, don't need to spam jump 50,000 times in the hopes that you'll footstool. You also don't end up wasting your second jump when trying to footstool.

You can just tap up rather than holding it down (tap to jump!).This actually also works if you hit the jump button once right after the down-b =)

Edit: While we're mentioning slightly obscure ZSS stuff, can we document the fact she can only use 3 tethers before having to touch the ground, otherwise you get a rather unpleasant surprise...I used to die so many times from this and just assumed there was some kind of dead zone with the side-B tether, as there is with the attack.

 

[Adapt]

You can just tap up rather than holding it down (tap to jump!).This actually also works if you hit the jump button once right after the down-b =)

Edit: While we're mentioning slightly obscure ZSS stuff, can we document the fact she can only use 3 tethers before having to touch the ground, otherwise you get a rather unpleasant surprise...I used to die so many times from this and just assumed there was some kind of dead zone with the side-B tether, as there is with the attack.

I thought the fact that you could just hit jump once for it to auto-flipstool was common knowledge :|

Also the tether limit of three is common knowledge

 

[kuenzel]

Edit: disregard the post. I am ******** plzkthxlol

 

[TheRockSays]

:O i didn't knew that can that work on ike's jabs?

 

[Mr.Ious]

I thought the fact that you could just hit jump once for it to auto-flipstool was common knowledge :|

Also the tether limit of three is common knowledge

Might be common knowledge to the current ZSS mains, but we don't have it written down anywhere, except maybe somewhere in the monster Q&A thread.

*Goes away to compile FAQ list*

 

[Taalcon]

I already came up with that and it's edited on the first page lol. But, are you sure an airdodge first helps in recovery? I just use down B.

Isn't mashing down-B after being hit horrible DI?

 

[FBM]

Might be common knowledge to the current ZSS mains, but we don't have it written down anywhere, except maybe somewhere in the monster Q&A thread.

*Goes away to compile FAQ list*

It's just plain common knowledge - it applies to every character's tether, so anyone worth a **** who plays or has played against TL, Oli, or Samus, among others, should know this.

 

[Snakeee]

Isn't mashing down-B after being hit horrible DI?

Yeah, I guess I should rephrase that I was exaggerating. Just try to Down-B as soon as you believe you're about to have control.

I think now that the best way to survive horizontally is actually an up air and then a down B, but I'm not good with testing these sort of things. If someone would like to do that it would be much appreciated.

And, FBM that's actually not true. I don't know the specifics for every tether char, but I know that Sheik and Olimar can tether onto the ledge as much as they want before returning to the stage.

 

[Mr.Ious]

It's just plain common knowledge - it applies to every character's tether, so anyone worth a **** who plays or has played against TL, Oli, or Samus, among others, should know this.

And what about the people who are just starting out or who have never played any of those characters?
Our guides and stickies are 'common knowledge', but we still keep them around to help the new guys.

Analogy:
Grammar is 'common knowledge' to adults, but if we don't teach it to our children, we get this:

i think zss worst match ups are Game and watch 2nd with his annoying turtle shell is pretty much self explanatory. 3rd Falco to much prio. 4th Sonic He moves to fast for most of zss moves. I don't have a 5th at the moment but Bum163's ike Caught me of guard He two stocked me With my main, i used kirby dropped him 2 1 life i believe he was using peach,and then i played luigi against his mario dropped him to 1 life Then again Bum is the best NY i did what i could.

Number 1 obviously goes to MK. Snake is probably 6th.

Can't we all just get along?

 

[ph00tbag]

Isn't mashing down-B after being hit horrible DI?

You don't mash Down B during the throw. You do it in the air. You can't DI in midair.