Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!

[Dre89]

I woulda figured after leaving this thread for close to a year that things would be different, but I guess some things are eternal.

It's a league thread, people are toxic and have vastly different opinions on things.

 

[Geoberos]

Lurked this thread for too long now I just skim everything. Shelved League a little after Rek'sai. Has the Riot meta come full circle again, cause y'all most certainly are.

 

[Dre89]

Lurked this thread for too long now I just skim everything. Shelved League a little after Rek'sai. Has the Riot meta come full circle again, cause y'all most certainly are.

High level meta is poke comps now

Although people have decided for some reason that playing short range mages with no escapes like Viktor or Cass (not as popular anymore) is suddenly not a problem anymore.

Also buffs to Shen's MR and DPS apparently made his utility viable as a support now. Nautilus is apparently viable in the jungle again too, despite maxing E, which makes him even weaker to early invades than he used to be.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Naut jungle is naut viable.

Top/Support will still be incredibly strong tho.

 

[Dre89]

Naut jungle is naut viable.

Top/Support will still be incredibly strong tho.

That's naut funny

Didn't he get played recently?

Honestly, cinderhulk meta proved that tank jgs had always been viable. Cinderhulk didn't remove the weakness of tank junglers, which was being vulnerable to early invades. They always out scaled the bruiser junglers lategame anyway.

I feel like in the last two seasons a lot of the traditional wisdom went out the window. Immobile mages going mid. Squishy or immobile champs going top. Tank junglers getting play despite their main weakness not getting removed etc.

 

[Soft Serve]

It removed the weakness of inherently slow clears while building the items you need, yes.

Also free wards, less rewards for invasion, rougher jungle, and built in comeback mechanics in the jungle cleared up those early game counter jungle holes

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ah yes, this discussion again.

1. Dre says he was right all along about something being good because it's good now, ignoring any changes to itemization and what else is played or explicitly arguing they're minor changes.
2. People disagree providing facts and evidence.
3. Dre quibbles using every rhetorical tactic he knows up to and including blatantly misrepresenting what people say.
4. People get aggravated at him, manifesting as annoyance and/or wall to wall combat

And people wonder why most of the decent players have left the thread.

 

[Dre89]

Ah yes, this discussion again.

1. Dre says he was right all along about something being good because it's good now, ignoring any changes to itemization and what else is played or explicitly arguing they're minor changes.
2. People disagree providing facts and evidence.
3. Dre quibbles using every rhetorical tactic he knows up to and including blatantly misrepresenting what people say.
4. People get aggravated at him, manifesting as annoyance and/or wall to wall combat

And people wonder why most of the decent players have left the thread.

I specifically mentioned that the item that made tanks popular, Cinderhulk, didn't remove tank junglers traditional weakness, which was early invades.

Soft Serve mentioned that it helps them clear faster. I don't think that cuts it for a number of reasons. Firstly, plenty of junglers with slow clears like Wu, Panth and Rengar were viable at some point before cinderhulk, and their jungle item did not give them fast clears. Secondly, it doesn't help your first 2 clears, which are the slowest. Thirdly, many pro level junglers delay their cinderhulk by going sightstone first. So that's 3-4 clears that you're doing without getting the item that clears up your slow clearspeed.


Also why is there less reward for invades? Wouldn't the smite buffs make the reward even bigger?

The irony of your posts Adumbrodeus is by constantly making blanket statements such as 'he is presented with the facts but ignores them' and 'uses rhetoric' without acttually dissecting specific examples, you're being more fallacious than I possibly could be. I could just as easily say 'resorts to blanket statements because he can't provide specific examples' without backing it up too lol

 

[Soft Serve]

The only junglers I had seen rush sight stone were on Champs that don't need items for a respectable clear (nunu) or enjoy the utility (lee)

Cinder hulk when it was super busted gave you health, a high damage aura, and more health based on how much health you already had. It scaled with every other tank purchase you could make. Tank jungles werent bad before, there were just better options. When cinder hulk dropped there was no reason to not play full tank, the item gave you free stats and a better sunfire. I know you've tried this argument before lol. Idk, adumbrodes was pretty harsh but you do really seem to only see things in binary and base your arguments in that. Is it hard to accept tanks were indeed viable before but there were always better option due it itemization? There wasn't much of a point to going tank and being utility before cinder hulk when you could take a fighter, rush warrior, and kill everything/snowball your tank top lane and carry the game through damage while still transitioning into bruiser with 1-2 dmg items

 

[adumbrodeus]

Dre, you realize Bami's cinder exists right?

And you know what, I tried to debate you, and you stubbornly refused to understand nuance and even blatantly lied about my points. There's no way to have a real discussion with you in terms of the merits comparative views because that's simply not what you're here for, you're here to prove that you're infallible.

If you actually wish to discuss these topics in a rational and intelligent manner you need to consider all the elements of a changing metagame, not just one and follow basic discussion courtesy (such as not strawmanning your opponent hardcore). I know you're capable of it, you did it with rumble after I pressed you on it.


But do you really expect to not get called out on using this fallacious argument style when you literally used the same argument format a few pages back with shen?

 

[jaswa]

you're here to prove that you're infallible.

lol

admit's fault:

The second time he killed me I forgot his ult was on a short CD so that was my bad.

genuinely asks for help:

Do you think I could get away with wardens into Tiamat or sunfire if was winning early?

 

[Minato]

It's a league thread, people are toxic and have vastly different opinions on things.

Vastly different opinions is fine, but that doesn't mean people need to be toxic.

lol

And don't make posts like these, guys. You're not doing yourselves any favors if I see more posts like this.
Terrible way to make an argument and I'll count them as spam in the future. All it is is baiting.

 

[jaswa]

I posted lol last time because someone made large assumptions which I suppose I could've corrected, but I followed up the most previous lol with counter-examples to his claim. Am I not allowed to 'laugh' at the falsity and the irony of the complaints about rhetoric?

So is talking about talking instead of actually talking about LoL not spam? adumbrodeus' 2nd last post was literally just complaining about Dre who was in fact talking about League...

 

[Sinister Slush]

The staff that tends to give warnings have good days or off days, I've been warned in other threads for silly things when there was other people posting worst or discussing the exact same topic I was warned for but only I got a warning.

But enough about that, let's talk about how EU and NA LCS has a trillion tiebreakers, NA alone has 3 they need to play. Dunno if gonna do all three today, but right now is T8th place vs Clown 9

 

[jaswa]

The TL vs. TiP game was pretty intense.

Why is Cali ending after this game, even if they make play-offs?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Think Cali was doing one last split for the team cause he was holding off for university. He intended to leave after Spring split ended, but leddit and prolly his team offering more money maybe kept him from choosing school over league for another split.

With the team looking like to get 8th place, he prolly will leave the team in a week or so.

 

[jaswa]

I knew about him postponing starting his PhD, but Jatt said this will be his last game, and something about leaving his team in a good spot. Seemed to imply independent of win or loss he'd leave, but I thought he'd play out the rest of this 'split' inclusive of play-offs.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Regardless if T8 won this or lost it, he was gonna leave. 7th place and 8th place, while different (no need to play a challenger team, or play a challenger team to keep their spot) doesn't really spell a good thing. He most likely doesn't see a good future with the team and just wants the PhD already.

Also I didn't really read the post after Dre and Soft serve until now, lol.
It's because Summer split of S3 and entirety of S4 was the meta of Bruisers/assassins. Elder lizard was more broken than Ancient Golem cause more stats compared to Golem while tanks like shyv mundo renekton were better tanks than jungle tanks.
Otherwise, start of S3 was basically fight for Naut Nasus Mumu Zac jungle. Even if Elder lizard was broken, junglers like Vi or Elise sometimes (at least for Vi) had to go the golem item cause the Wraith jungle item was baaaaaaaaaad.

Fiddle jungle attempt with the item lost every game and was almost solely the reason TSM used to even be able to take games off C9, when Meteos tried Fiddle jungle.
Cinderhulk having so many more stats compared to elder lizard shoved into it made elder lizard look pitiful. Other thing you need to realize is a few tank items and tank champs got a lot of buffs too. Maokai Naut Alistar Gragas Urgot and most recently, TRUNDLE buffs.

It's not that cinderhulk is what made people remember tank jungles is alright, it's that the meta shifted, items/champs were buffed reworked or changed, and cinderhulk was a dumb OFFENSIVE WHILE TANKY item once the spirit items were scrapped.
Honestly, the last few changes at the end of S4 they did with the Ancient golem made it a bit more viable with the quill coat and free ward but because that change was made during preseason it wasn't really memorable to most.

It's like Rito specifically wanted the tank meta to happen, since they didn't like the assassin/bruiser meta. They also are incompetent and forgot to revert the nerfs to all the champs they gave like Twitch Lucian Kha'zix Elise etc.


I feel like I talked about the whole tank item and tank buffs already, dunno what page but I definitely mentioned this before.
Same old story I guess

 

[jaswa]

Oh my bad, in my head all the tiebreakers changed play-off spots. I forgot 7th place is the afk spot in between play-offs and relegations.

 

[Espy Rose]

K.

 

[Minato]

I posted lol last time because someone made large assumptions which I suppose I could've corrected, but I followed up the most previous lol with counter-examples to his claim. Am I not allowed to 'laugh' at the falsity and the irony of the complaints about rhetoric?

So is talking about talking instead of actually talking about LoL not spam? adumbrodeus' 2nd last post was literally just complaining about Dre who was in fact talking about League...

Your post last time just laughing isn't going to contribute anything besides make people angry. It's just going to make people on edge. I'm not really trying to single you out, but saying this is something I want to avoid with how hostile this thread can be at times. It's a warning to everyone.

Your post against adumbrodeus? I don't really have anything against that and never brought that up or quoted it. You brought up points in that post to say that he's wrong. That's actually contributing something in this thread.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dang, ironic for the discussions. Naut jungle chosen and guess what happens?
Lose.

https://twitter.com/YusuiLoL/status/625491061662547968

 

[jaswa]

Your post last time just laughing isn't going to contribute anything besides make people angry. It's just going to make people on edge. I'm not really trying to single you out, but saying this is something I want to avoid with how hostile this thread can be at times. It's a warning to everyone.

Your post against adumbrodeus? I don't really have anything against that and never brought that up or quoted it. You brought up points in that post to say that he's wrong. That's actually contributing something in this thread.

kk fair enough, I didn't realise you quoted that one.

 

[Z'zgashi]

So my prediction on how I think playoffs will end up:

1. TSM
2. TIP
3. TL
4. CLG
5/6. GV+DIG

I hope Gravity beats TSM but I dont think it will happen in a best of 3.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Aren't they all bo5.

 

[Cheerilee]

@ Sinister Slush @ jaswa

Steven Kim got accepted into pharmacy school for a Pharm D. which is usually a six year program to become a pharmacist. You can do extra schooling for a PhD however a very small portion actually goes through with additional schooling given that retail chains i.e. Walgreens, CVS, and Rite Aid hire most newly minted graduates. Right now the field is getting over saturated due to the board of pharmacy having close to no standards to open a new pharmacy school and newer schools lowering standards of admission resulting in an influx of a lot more pharmacists in the past decade than ever before. Therefore, Steven Kim may have been betting on becoming an e-star and potentially reaping more benefits from creating his own super star team than he would from his post-professional degree which is very likely.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Aren't they all bo5.

Even worse

 

[Cheerilee]

The only junglers I had seen rush sight stone were on Champs that don't need items for a respectable clear (nunu) or enjoy the utility (lee) Cinder hulk when it was super busted gave you health, a high damage aura, and more health based on how much health you already had. It scaled with every other tank purchase you could make. Tank jungles werent bad before, there were just better options. When cinder hulk dropped there was no reason to not play full tank, the item gave you free stats and a better sunfire. I know you've tried this argument before lol. Idk, adumbrodes was pretty harsh but you do really seem to only see things in binary and base your arguments in that. Is it hard to accept tanks were indeed viable before but there were always better option due it itemization? There wasn't much of a point to going tank and being utility before cinder hulk when you could take a fighter, rush warrior, and kill everything/snowball your tank top lane and carry the game through damage while still transitioning into bruiser with 1-2 dmg items

To add.

Season 4 jungle was much weaker so people could get away with top lane fighter builds and using lifesteal attributes to regain health from the jungle. Because season 4 was an assassin oriented meta, games were dictated by mid-game power spikes and which assassins had strong roam potential i.e. Zed (the poster child). Lee Sin and Elise were junglers who were well known for being able to gank at level 2 because of their skill versatility and used that in order to snowball the game as fast as possible. Both these champions fall off into later game and fell off when people began to pick scaling tanky champions. Also mind you that in Season 4 there were no flexible smite options to contest camps or trades with enemy champions that gave any jungler more options to peel or deal with an invading jungler. These added smite options also increased a lot of versatility in who you could pick with the cc provided by stalker's blade, camp clears by ranger's trailblazer, or enemy jungle invades by skirmisher's sabre.

 

[Dre89]

Season 4 was assassin meta? I thought S4 was the mega tank meta? Season 3 was the true assassin meta IMO

Also why has Viktor become viable now? I he was disabled for a bit, but he didn't get picked before that either. I know assassins aren't as good now, but some teams will stick pick stuff like Ahri into him.

 

[Sinister Slush]

S4 still had Zed Fizz Ahri and so on, basically assassin meta. The Tank meta and the Fizz changes happened quite literally happened a patch or two into S5, after MSI is when the whole tank meta started because "Damn TSM tilting after MSI cause Cass top and Urgot mid from gravity" maymay.
Viktor is viable cause he got changed this season too, same for Cass. Both got changed a bunch to be played mid lane. If there's a change to a character, somebody is gonna try it out and see if it's OP or not. Changes to those two were OP/strong, Fizz changes took a bit more time of messing with before it got viable in top/jungle because they constantly changed it until it was right.

 

[Dre89]

S4 still had Zed Fizz Ahri and so on, basically assassin meta. The Tank meta and the Fizz changes happened quite literally happened a patch or two into S5, after MSI is when the whole tank meta started because "Damn TSM tilting after MSI cause Cass top and Urgot mid from gravity" maymay.
Viktor is viable cause he got changed this season too, same for Cass. Both got changed a bunch to be played mid lane. If there's a change to a character, somebody is gonna try it out and see if it's OP or not. Changes to those two were OP/strong, Fizz changes took a bit more time of messing with before it got viable in top/jungle because they constantly changed it until it was right.

People still pick Ahri and Zed into Viktor though? Think Fizz too but I can't remember

I didn't realise Viktor had been changed though, mb

 

[Sinister Slush]

One too many happenedz

Nobody picks zed cause he got silly nerfs. Ahri adapted well to the AP item changes. Fizz Mid hasn't been a thing since the changes at the beginning of the season when they tried to kill assassin meta in favor of tank meta, and even then the rise of annoying poke champs like varus ez jayce and kog popped up anyways.

 

[Dre89]

One too many happenedz

Nobody picks zed cause he got silly nerfs. Ahri adapted well to the AP item changes. Fizz Mid hasn't been a thing since the changes at the beginning of the season when they tried to kill assassin meta in favor of tank meta, and even then the rise of annoying poke champs like varus ez jayce and kog popped up anyways.

I'm guessing you don't watch LPL or LCK, because they're still picked there every now and then. Pawn's Fizz was drawing bans at one point. They weren't super common picks or anything, just the odd counter pick but it's seeming to become even less common now.

I find it odd that people complain about the Zed nerf removing his ability to avoid CC. It was always really easy to CC Zed out of his ult if you have decent ping. His hurtbox actually appears slight before his model does so the window was bigger than it seemed.

It's also funny that the nerf was basically implemented off the back of Febiven killing Faker's Azir, yet Zed is still Azir's worst MU. People were going off about Febiven yet it wasn't even a high level play lol. It was like the most standard combo you do to 1v1 someone during laning phase lol.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm fully aware of the very niche picks like fizz.
Just cause Fizz is chosen doesn't mean he's good mid lane.

That's like saying Irelia and Yi that faker keeps choosing and practicing is good. It's more of team coordination down to a T and 3 man diving the enemy mid laner with the support and jungler.
pawn plays fizz not cause it's good against a certain MU, he plays it cause he feels like it and he felt comfortable with it while he most likely is telling his team to 4 man gank for him before he falls behind from the enemy team trying to do the same due to Fizz of course being melee and having very little damage until he hits level 6.

 

[Dre89]

I'm fully aware of the very niche picks like fizz.
Just cause Fizz is chosen doesn't mean he's good mid lane.

That's like saying Irelia and Yi that faker keeps choosing and practicing is good. It's more of team coordination down to a T and 3 man diving the enemy mid laner with the support and jungler.
pawn plays fizz not cause it's good against a certain MU, he plays it cause he feels like it and he felt comfortable with it while he most likely is telling his team to 4 man gank for him before he falls behind from the enemy team trying to do the same due to Fizz of course being melee and having very little damage until he hits level 6.

I never said he was good, I said that he and the other assassins still see play as picks into Viktor. You said Viktor became popular in part because Zed Ahri and Fizz weren't around, so that's why I brought it up.

Also Fizz having weak damage pre6? He's one of the strongest mids pre 6 damage-wise, he's known for 100-0ing people at level 3. He can still do that after the rework. It's just that he's melee and squishy so you can't just mindlessly aggress on good players at 3 unless they mess up.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I do not read anywhere saying Viktor is now played cause no assassins lol

You're so damn hard to discuss things.
Many many other level 3's are better than Fizz, ahri azir comes to mind quickly.

 

[Cheerilee]

**** sated devourer. Promotes awful gameplay.

No ganks at bronze - silver. Farm oriented / passive mentality. Have never seen Yi, Shyv, Jax, and even a Vi win off the item alone. Everyone wants to jg with sated and carry and some of them are just the ****tiest games ever getting 3 v. 1 under tower while jungler is farming a krug and then recalls because it's too risky and they will become OP when their sated is finished.

The worst is when you have to support a Vayne while all this bull**** goes down. Dw guys. We got this late game.

...

 

[Espy Rose]

Devourer changes made Poppy jungle more binary because warrior is better on her now completely.

Putting a cap on it just made her late game damage so much weaker

 

[KRDsonic]

Reminds me of the S4 jungle Udyr's who would farm all game and never gank. At least with Feral Flare, you got stacks from getting kills too, so there was actually a benefit to ganking lanes for even selfish people too.

 

[Cheerilee]

The worst part is this. The two most macro roles towards controlling snowball factors are ADC and jungle. Jungle by nature of ganking every so often lends a sort of balance that you could be complete garbage with respect to ganks but as long as the enemy laners know that you will gank from time to time they will be put at odds whether to go past that half way mark where flash isn't enough to make it back under their tower.

I swear that some of these players bandwagoning on the devourer rush hype train are so used to the health bonuses from cinderhulk that they actually play as if they have completed cinderhulk or gank as if they have a cinderhulk when they decide to actually gank to the point that they feed the enemy team or come so close to death that they just never gank again until they finish their devourer. When you have someone on a devourer rush strategy with someone whose doing a traditional jungle clear the entire game could be over by the time they satiate their devourer.

The issue with this is that in order to prevent an asshole from taking it you just need to take the jungle position. No problem. However, taking the jungle position to hedge against the chances of a crappy game leaves open the ADC position to someone else who could snowball the game towards the enemy team. I agree with people here that supports dictate what the conditions are like in laning phase, however in low elo where last hitting and ONLY last hitting to freeze the creep wave around your tower is never understood by a majority of the player base you will find them literally at the enemy tower on less than half health.

To put this into perspective, even as an ADC I can't freeze the minion wave around tower unless I spend champion select and pre-game telling my support about my reasoning as to why they should try not to fire their skill shots into the minion wave and they will still auto minion waves at full health because they have auto attack closest target on OR because they are so used to using thresh Q + flay into a full health minion wave to "help" their ADC CS it with autos.

Some supports are so lost on the concept that they need to conserve their mana for when they want to all in or trade that they tell me, "Well what am I supposed to do then?" And then afk in the bush or spam laugh because they do not understand what I'm trying to convey is that they can still zone and engage the enemy, I'm just setting up the engagement to be in a better location for us to escape.