Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!

[john!]

^ armor pen is better when your opponent has lower armor

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

 

[john!]

that video was made when flat pen applied before % pen and was less effective. also, flat AD runes are wayyy more gold efficient than armor pen runes, compared to items.

 

[SuperBowser]

i had a break from summoner's rift for several months.

what do people make of all the season changes? while a lot of the changes are cool, i feel the game has overall become more stale. i appreciate the new baron and dragon buffs but i'm not a fan of the new inhibitor turrets.

it almost feels like the losing team can turtle forever, while the winning team lark about till they pick up a buff to leverage a push. i don't know if it's my imagination but it feels like the losing team has less options to get back into the game (with turtling and hoping for a mistake/outscaling being the best option).

 

[Soft Serve]

At first I hated how they made things easier to defend and I thought it dragged games out too much. I still dislike new door walls between lanes in base, I don't mind the new inhib turrets much, It makes mid/late game dives under turret an actual commitment/risk now. I hated a lot of the changes and still dislike new jungle.
Then I realized just how strong early dragon control is because the dragon/baron buffs are so useful for snowballing map control and seiging. The things that drag games out are just solo q being un-coordinated imo. The game is still about dragons/towers but its not so much about the gold anymore. the dragons are for the utility and wave-clear/tower pushing/speed for rotations, and the towers are for map control. Baron itself feels a lot weaker to me now, and the buff is a great change. Again the change isn't just higher numbers and extra regen that help you win fights and seige. The fighting buffs are on dragon now, but the baron minion buffs make seiging a lot easier (that baroned up canon minion is crazy, basically a free turret if you just keep seiging, expecially with the new canon minion spawn rates in mid/late game). Plus the fact that even if you take most of the buffs away by killing them for doing baron, its not a complete loss for the team because as long as they coordinate they can still seiging with the 1-2 baron buffs still on them.

For once I like what Riot did with the game. They made it harder to end the game through just kills/gold, and are rewarding proper map control/positioning objective control more, in ways that are not just gold or raw ad/ap/regen boosts.

 

[Dre89]

The thing I don't like about design changes that make the game go longer is that they make low skill hypercarries more viable. Champions like Nasus, Fiora, Jax, Ryze etc. can just play passive with no playmaking burden, then have minimal counter play later on.

It's the most frustrating feeling when you get multiple solo kills on a laner, have a 20+ Cs lead and item lead on them, then 15 minutes later they oneshot you with virtually no counter play just because they were lucky their team held out that long.

 

[teluoborg]

Ok so I'm seriously baffled at what rito is doing to Morde. It's like :
You take a burst mage with no CC or mobility.
His gameplay solely relies on dealing damage, in order to generate a shield and a ghost that can turn the tables in any teamfight.
You nerf his damage by removing a core item (dfg).
You suddenly decide that killing people isn't metal and doesn't stick with the identity of the character and rework him into a bruiser.
You nerf all of his damage and AP ratios, and do not give him any sticking power, NO CC and a very situational mobility boost.
And you buff the range and the AD ratio on his Q.

I guess trinity is the way to go now.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Similar to the gutting of Fizz and now TF Bork/wit's and tanky **** the way to go now over AP.
Tho really Rito doesn't know what they're doing with their characters, have you seen the veigar rework? Atrocious.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The thing I don't like about design changes that make the game go longer is that they make low skill hypercarries more viable. Champions like Nasus, Fiora, Jax, Ryze etc. can just play passive with no playmaking burden, then have minimal counter play later on.

It's the most frustrating feeling when you get multiple solo kills on a laner, have a 20+ Cs lead and item lead on them, then 15 minutes later they oneshot you with virtually no counter play just because they were lucky their team held out that long.

Ryze, really?

The only champ you mentioned that's doing well is fiora, and that's because she's not a lategame hypercarry, she's a lanebully and dominating duelist which makes her a strong splitpusher as Acrostic told you before.

 

[Dre89]

Ryze, really?

The only champ you mentioned that's doing well is fiora, and that's because she's not a lategame hypercarry, she's a lanebully and dominating duelist which makes her a strong splitpusher as Acrostic told you before.

Winrate doesn't really matter. I'm not saying that they're OP and are an auto-win. What I'm saying is that they're poorly designed champions because whether they win or not is largely independent of their individual skill, but moreso on that of their teammates. They're low mechanic, minimal- counterplay champions who have no playmaking burden. So how well they do is not about their own skill, but whether their team is good enough to hold out to a certain point. That's why their win rates can be low, because they might have inferior teams. and usually people who plays those champs are lower skill players (relative to that elo) who do nothing but farm, except occassionaly react to a nearby skirmish, or TP into a skirmish. In cases like Fiora or Yi, they're normally dependent on being in the right place and cleaning up a skirmish to get their gold, rather than outplaying their opponents.

Ryze has hypercarry DPS and gets pretty tanky, so you normally need to commit more than one CC to deal with him. It's always a problem when you have to commit a ton of focus to hypercarries other than the ADC, because then said ADC gets free reign.

Fiora gets murdered early by any lane bully. Mao, Renekton, Riven, Gnar, Rumble, Darius, Jax, Liss etc. The only top laners that matter who she might beat are ones who are weak early like Irelia. She has no projectile to snipe CS with safely, so you can trade with her for pretty much any minion she goes with. After level 1, where spells begin to matter more than having 90 AD she cannot trade with proper top laeners. If you think she can I have to question if you've ever played her against an aggressive higher elo player.

If she was a good laner she'd be played by everyone because she has barely any counterplay lategame. She's literally an assassin and a hypercarry in the one champion. Like other low counterplay champs like Nasus, she's balanced around being weak early. But the problem is she just needs a hydra, and one other AD item, and she can literally 1v1 a full build AD carry. I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen feeding Fioras with a huge item deficit 1v2, or even 1v2/3 fed champions by just doing their basic spell rotation and not outplaying them in any way.

Seriously though, if you acknolwedge her strength lategame, but also think she's a lane bully, why do you think she doesn't see much play then? Lategame, she's a splitpushing duelist, an assassin, and does hypercarry damage in teamfights. If everyone though she was a lane bully on top of all that, I can't see why she wouldn't be picked/banned every game.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Winrate doesn't really matter. I'm not saying that they're OP and are an auto-win. What I'm saying is that they're poorly designed champions because whether they win or not is largely independent of their individual skill, but moreso on that of their teammates. They're low mechanic, minimal- counterplay champions who have no playmaking burden. So how well they do is not about their own skill, but whether their team is good enough to hold out to a certain point. That's why their win rates can be low, because they might have inferior teams. and usually people who plays those champs are lower skill players (relative to that elo) who do nothing but farm, except occassionaly react to a nearby skirmish, or TP into a skirmish. In cases like Fiora or Yi, they're normally dependent on being in the right place and cleaning up a skirmish to get their gold, rather than outplaying their opponents.

No, you're saying this meta ADVANTAGES these characters.

The low winrate indicates that you're incorrect about this, which presumably suggests the meta doesn't make the games longer and therefore that type of character is weak.

Fiora gets murdered early by any lane bully. Mao, Renekton, Riven, Gnar, Rumble, Darius, Jax, Liss etc. The only top laners that matter who she might beat are ones who are weak early like Irelia. She has no projectile to snipe CS with safely, so you can trade with her for pretty much any minion she goes with. After level 1, where spells begin to matter more than having 90 AD she cannot trade with proper top laeners. If you think she can I have to question if you've ever played her against an aggressive higher elo player.

If she was a good laner she'd be played by everyone because she has barely any counterplay lategame. She's literally an assassin and a hypercarry in the one champion. Like other low counterplay champs like Nasus, she's balanced around being weak early. But the problem is she just needs a hydra, and one other AD item, and she can literally 1v1 a full build AD carry. I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen feeding Fioras with a huge item deficit 1v2, or even 1v2/3 fed champions by just doing their basic spell rotation and not outplaying them in any way.

Seriously though, if you acknolwedge her strength lategame, but also think she's a lane bully, why do you think she doesn't see much play then? Lategame, she's a splitpushing duelist, an assassin, and does hypercarry damage in teamfights. If everyone though she was a lane bully on top of all that, I can't see why she wouldn't be picked/banned every game.

A. Because she's not good at teamfighting, you're wrong about this, she can't reliably assassinate and therefore runs into the same issues that melee adcs generally run into, she gets focused down and killed.

B. Because being a lane bully doesn't mean that she's the best lane bully or that she bullies everyone, her power will always depend on whether common characters lose to her. I'd defer to somebody who knows her matchups better, but with the current crop she seems middling. Gnar for example, I feel like based on kit (who is himself a lane bully) would crush her.

C. Because unlike some other lane bullies, she's pretty gankable and that makes her not that difficult to shut down.


Sure, if you leave her alone she'll become a split push threat, but she's certainly not unique in this respect.

 

[Dre89]

No, you're saying this meta ADVANTAGES these characters.

The low winrate indicates that you're incorrect about this, which presumably suggests the meta doesn't make the games longer and therefore that type of character is weak.





A. Because she's not good at teamfighting, you're wrong about this, she can't reliably assassinate and therefore runs into the same issues that melee adcs generally run into, she gets focused down and killed.

B. Because being a lane bully doesn't mean that she's the best lane bully or that she bullies everyone, her power will always depend on whether common characters lose to her. I'd defer to somebody who knows her matchups better, but with the current crop she seems middling. Gnar for example, I feel like based on kit (who is himself a lane bully) would crush her.

C. Because unlike some other lane bullies, she's pretty gankable and that makes her not that difficult to shut down.


Sure, if you leave her alone she'll become a split push threat, but she's certainly not unique in this respect.

Please name some good top laners that she beats in lane.

Also I don't get this logic that she can't assassinate anybody. She has a double gap closer, a movement speed steroid, and can get a Ghostblade because it does not matter what AD items you get after Hydra and LW (you can get YG before LW). She has more mobility than assassins like Talon and Kat (pre reset). You can either flank like a conventional assassin, or you can try do it Renekton-style and Q through the frontline then oneshot the ADC with hydra-ult. The latter is harder and just for when you can't flank for some reason.

You basically just play like an assassin, get onto their ADC and oneshot them in your ult whilst being unpeelable, then try DPS the rest of the team down. If you die after killing the ADC it's not too bad seeing as you've already done the job of an assassin, the hypercarry DPS afterwards is just a bonus.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

The only champ you mentioned that's doing well is fiora, and that's because she's not a lategame hypercarry, she's a lanebully and dominating duelist which makes her a strong splitpusher as Acrostic told you before.

...she has barely any counterplay lategame. She's literally an assassin and a hypercarry in the one champion. Like other low counterplay champs like Nasus, she's balanced around being weak early. But the problem is she just needs a hydra, and one other AD item, and she can literally 1v1 a full build AD carry. I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen feeding Fioras with a huge item deficit 1v2, or even 1v2/3 fed champions by just doing their basic spell rotation and not outplaying them in any way.

Seriously though, if you acknolwedge her strength lategame, but also think she's a lane bully, why do you think she doesn't see much play then? Lategame, she's a splitpushing duelist, an assassin, and does hypercarry damage in teamfights. If everyone though she was a lane bully on top of all that, I can't see why she wouldn't be picked/banned every game.

A. Because she's not good at teamfighting, you're wrong about this, she can't reliably assassinate and therefore runs into the same issues that melee adcs generally run into, she gets focused down and killed.

Also I don't get this logic that she can't assassinate anybody.

 

[Sinister Slush]

 

[Dre89]

It's been acknowledged that she is a strong splitpusher lategame, that's what I meant by lategame strength. Where we disagree is whether she's a hyper carry or not.

She can assassinate as reliably as any other assassin as she has just as much, or more mobility than most of them, and she has an unpeelable nuke that makes her untargetable at the same time. She gets onto her target as easily as any other assassin, she just has less tools than someone of them at escaping afterward. But honestly instead of trying to escape she just tries to kill everyone with her huge AS steroid that has AoE damage and lifesteal thanks to Hydra.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Please name some good top laners that she beats in lane.

Because what top laners are good isn't totally defined by the meta, and what's good in the meta completely defines her play pattern as opposed to her power right?

She has the play pattern of a lane bully, with really strong power spikes at 3 and 6, if champs that she can use this to bully with are good, she'll be good, if they're not she'll be weak. Acrostic already reviewed her play pattern for you and it hasn't substantially changed, what changed was that she was better against the meta top lane picks back then.

Also I don't get this logic that she can't assassinate anybody. She has a double gap closer, a movement speed steroid, and can get a Ghostblade because it does not matter what AD items you get after Hydra and LW (you can get YG before LW). She has more mobility than assassins like Talon and Kat (pre reset). You can either flank like a conventional assassin, or you can try do it Renekton-style and Q through the frontline then oneshot the ADC with hydra-ult. The latter is harder and just for when you can't flank for some reason.

You basically just play like an assassin, get onto their ADC and oneshot them in your ult whilst being unpeelable, then try DPS the rest of the team down. If you die after killing the ADC it's not too bad seeing as you've already done the job of an assassin, the hypercarry DPS afterwards is just a bonus.

A progression of issues:

1. Because they're aoe assassins, she simply can't compare to the damage to multiple targets of talon and kat as such she actually needs to get on her primary target, otherwise she's not remotately acceptable damage off on them. Not to mention they do a lot of damage to seconday targets. In that sense you have to compare her to Zed. But even compared with them...

2. She's worse at getting on targets w, even though she has two dashes because they're shorter range and considerably slower, making her much easier to peel off and kill while trying to reach her target. Compared to zed (whose actual role is similar to what you're positing for you) her ability to get on targets is laughable, which wouldn't be as bad but...

3. She can't really burst targets down instantly even when she gets on them because her ability damage isn't even close to zed's even when you build AD except against isolated targets which you won't get in a teamfight, which means you need to stick on them after you blade waltz in order to finish the job, the problem with that is...

4. Fiora's damage is heavily scaling oriented which means you can't build the defense of characters like Irelia and still actually kill squishies in teamfights. This means in order to do decent damage you need to build squishy yourself. The end result of this is...

5. The general case of fiora in teamfights when trying to assassinate a squishy is that she either gets killed on the way to the squishy because she takes too long to get there or she gets killed after bladewaltz before she finishes the job. As a melee assassin whose damage is almost entirely scaling and depends on right clicking the target to finish them she simply is too squishy with acceptable damage given how long it takes her to jump on targets and the fact that she still has to finish them off post blade waltz where the entire enemy team will know where she will be and she has no defense against abilities.

She is not a good teamfighter, she's a 1v1 duelist and she's good at that, hell it's in her name. Her damage is simply way too inconsistent to allow her to be good at assasinating single targets except by finishing them off with right clicking, and she gets on them too slowly, is too telegraphed, and not is tanky enough for that to be reliably. Combine that with the fact that her damage to secondary targets isn't high enough and you have the makings of somebody who isn't a good teamfighting assassin.

Against single isolated targets on the other hand, she has a frigging 1001 base damage lvel 3 ult, she's terrifying to face 1v1. That's why you have her split push and don't pretend she's a teamfighting hypercarry/assassin.

 

[Dekar173]

19 arpen vs 15 AD:

Assume 55-70 base AD for varying champs. Low end of the scale you'll be getting (we'll use Riven for this, since she has tons of AD ratios):

56 + 15 + 4 + .5 (generic 21/9/0) +5% of bonus will round up to 21 additional AD, so 77 total. We'll say longsword for damage comparison of each, so 87 AD grand total at level 1. ~16 of that AD is from runes, so it's going to be just over 18% of your auto-attack dps. Her passive is effected here as well, but it just goes up an additional 20% based off AD per cast, so it's still 18% of her autoattack damage.

For her abilities, Q, W, E, there are multiple scalings. Q goes up twice per level, both base and the scaling, W scales linearly (and has 1.0 ratio) and E linearly, with a 1.0 ratio.

Let's just say level 1, for now. A Riven who staggers her Q will get 6 autoattacks total of her passive, and 3 Q hits. This is 6 autos (with passive procs), 3 Qs, so:

30 (Q base) + 1.2AD (Q scaling) + 7.2AD = 30 + 8.4 x 87 = 760.8

This is base damage over a drawn out (optimally executed) level 1 fight for Riven. The damage is mitigated by 94% of their armor, because 0 flat pen, but 6% from masteries.

Total damage on a target of X armor = 760.8[1-(.94X/(.94X+100))

For a Riven with pure arpen, the AD is 71. So the flat damage will be:

30 + 8.4AD = 626.4

Final damage done here will be: 626.4[1-(.94X-19)/((.94X-19)+100)]

Basic math, but writing that **** on a forum is pretty awful. It means next to nothing unless if you're going to actually examine it lol. Anyway, the best case for arpen is going to be at 20 armor, because arpen build will do true damage, while flat AD will not.

Comparing the two we get 626.4 for arpen (duh) and 15.8% mitigation (so 84.2% of 760.8) = 640.6

In this case, flat AD is strictly better at level 1. Of course, this is because flat AD is such a huge portion of your damage at level 1, but its still the case. Let's say we're Fiora, or Trynd, who has an AD steroid and less AD ratios for utility (like the shield for Riven) the arpen will be strictly better in all cases except when CSing the lane creeps.



Personally, I prefer arpen because it scales much better into late game, and allows for me to practice CSing even better, since not all champs benefit from flat AD reds, I can better prepare myself for when I'm Orianna and my autoattacks heal minions :^>

 

[Dre89]

Adumbrodeus- What

Sorry, I'm normally respectful of people's opinions, but I don't think I've ever seen more incorrect facts in single post.

Fiora does WAY more damage than any assassin. A decent Fiora will outdamage ADCs. I'm pretty sure she's the highest damaging melee in the game.

Fiora 'spikes' at level 1, where 90 AD and an auto block are a big deal. She drops at level 3 because her spell combo only has one real nuke. She doesn't spike again until she gets a Hydra. She's not killing any strong laner at 6 unless they're ********.

Can I ask have you ever played with Fiora's who rush Hydra? The way you talk about her damage sounds like you dont. A Fiora with a Hydra and another AD item can literally 100-0 a full build ADC with one Q-Hydra active-ult.

At 4-5 items the ult will kill an ADC by itself. Her burst with Hydra matches, if not tops that of any assassin, and half of it is AoE. If the ADC doesn't isolate themself from the rest of the team then the team will eat a lot of damage too.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Adumbrodeus- What

Sorry, I'm normally respectful of people's opinions, but I don't think I've ever seen more incorrect facts in single post.

Fiora does WAY more damage than any assassin. A decent Fiora will outdamage ADCs. I'm pretty sure she's the highest damaging melee in the game.

What? You really have no idea what I'm saying do you, this is why everyone hates talking with you, because rather then actually responding to what people are saying you construct imaginary versions of their arguments and ignore their entire lines of thought for anything remotely complicated, and this is a perfect example.

I never claimed her damage is low, I was talking about her ability to assassinate. This is because if the squishy she's trying to kill isn't dead by the time blade waltz ends against a remotely coordinated team she will evaporate in a teamfight.

I explained many times that I was talking about a teamfight situation and the constraints were the rest of the team trying to get you off their squishies and trying to kill you when you get there but evidently you entirely refuse to listen.

The rest of your post is inaccurate as well but given that you've so clearly ignored what I was saying in favor of some manufactured construction in your mind I feel no need to engage with you further, Acrostic already broke down how wrong you are and this serves no purpose.

 

[Dekar173]

Alright idk why you butt****s are arguing about fiora but seriously that ***** sucks.

Fiora is bad. Period. The only people who use her at a "top" level are chinese scripters. Scripters. It requires 3rd party programs to make that ***** viable.

 

[teluoborg]

Maybe she'd get viable if you rush occult sword eh Dekar.

 

[Dre89]

What? You really have no idea what I'm saying do you, this is why everyone hates talking with you, because rather then actually responding to what people are saying you construct imaginary versions of their arguments and ignore their entire lines of thought for anything remotely complicated, and this is a perfect example.

I never claimed her damage is low, I was talking about her ability to assassinate. This is because if the squishy she's trying to kill isn't dead by the time blade waltz ends against a remotely coordinated team she will evaporate in a teamfight.

I explained many times that I was talking about a teamfight situation and the constraints were the rest of the team trying to get you off their squishies and trying to kill you when you get there but evidently you entirely refuse to listen.

The rest of your post is inaccurate as well but given that you've so clearly ignored what I was saying in favor of some manufactured construction in your mind I feel no need to engage with you further, Acrostic already broke down how wrong you are and this serves no purpose.

But they won't live through your ult because all you need is a Hydra and LW and q-hydra-ult will kill them even if they're not isolated. So yes she has trouble escaping after ulting, but in reality the ADC will be dead anyway, and even if you happen to get locked up afterward and die without putting out any further DPS, you still killed the ADC.

The only things Zed has over Fiora in terms of being an assassin is that he's a better laner so he can snowball earlier through playmaking, and he's better at escaping. You actually have a smaller window of time to peel a Fiora than you do a Zed. Zed can be peeled not only on his way to the ADC, but he also takes longer to get his combo off. Fiora can only really be peeled before she Qs the ADC, and just as she Qs right onto them. She's definitely peelable, but Fioras who flash CC, dodge it with ult, or just wait them out are incredibly hard to peel. Zed of course can do the same thing, but the point is that he's not untargetable when he does is combo, so the window is a couple of seconds longer.

Not bagging on Zed or anything, he's my main ATM and I think he's the best designed champion in the game. Just point out that Fiora is just as legit as an assassin as him or any other conventional assassin.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

My teammates in Nemesis Draft have been interesting.

 

[teluoborg]

"Oh it looks like they giving us only adcs, let's give them only melee tanks !"

 

[Dre89]

Why do people in Bronze keep banning Zed all the time

No one at this elo can play mechanical champs properly anyway so I don't know why people bother ban him

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

"Oh it looks like they giving us only adcs, let's give them only melee tanks !"

Actually had a game where we forced the enemy team to play a Garen and then the Garen gave us a Caitlyn. Caitlyn wanted to know where she was going since we had double ADCs. Guess where I sent her? Really. Caitlyn dominated the Garen in a solo top lane and then she told us she was going to do laundry, but she would be back in ten minutes since she was ahead two levels and by the time she came back it would be a closer game.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Alright idk why you butt****s are arguing about fiora but seriously that ***** sucks.

Fiora is bad. Period. The only people who use her at a "top" level are chinese scripters. Scripters. It requires 3rd party programs to make that ***** viable.

Because Dre likes to claim that character's play patterns are entirely different then they are and when people call him out on it, acts like what they're saying is something completely different then what they're saying. It's hella frustrating.

But they won't live through your ult because all you need is a Hydra and LW and q-hydra-ult will kill them even if they're not isolated. So yes she has trouble escaping after ulting, but in reality the ADC will be dead anyway, and even if you happen to get locked up afterward and die without putting out any further DPS, you still killed the ADC.

The only things Zed has over Fiora in terms of being an assassin is that he's a better laner so he can snowball earlier through playmaking, and he's better at escaping. You actually have a smaller window of time to peel a Fiora than you do a Zed. Zed can be peeled not only on his way to the ADC, but he also takes longer to get his combo off. Fiora can only really be peeled before she Qs the ADC, and just as she Qs right onto them. She's definitely peelable, but Fioras who flash CC, dodge it with ult, or just wait them out are incredibly hard to peel. Zed of course can do the same thing, but the point is that he's not untargetable when he does is combo, so the window is a couple of seconds longer.

Not bagging on Zed or anything, he's my main ATM and I think he's the best designed champion in the game. Just point out that Fiora is just as legit as an assassin as him or any other conventional assassin.

No.

When Zed goes in, he's pretty much guaranteed a spell rotation and an AA, that's 975.75 + 7.4375 bonus AD, if he himself buys a hydra that's 1145.25 + 9.3125 bonus AD.

Versus Fiora

539+140+114+114+115.8 = 1022.8 + 3.86 bonus AD.

The only way she'd be able to deal close to Zed's damage is if she gets the 60% to her primary target on all 3 strikes nonprimary strikes, but no competent team is going to be that bunched up.

And that he's got a longer window to peel, is absolute BS, he teleports to his shadow, immediately goes untargetable with death mark, then gets a pretty much guarenteed 975.75 + 7.4375 damage off as he's doing the death mark animation. Fiora is required to dash to one enemy then dash to her primary target before she can execute this. She gets breathing room when she ults, but it's a long ult and everyone knows exactly where and when she'll pop out, so if she hasn't finished off her primary target (which 1022.8 + 3.86 bonus AD will not reliably do when 1657.6 is the lowest health a champ will have at level 18* and that champ has a rebirth passive).

Unreliable at getting on her target + not enough damage to reliably finish them off + if they're not dead you're gonna die when you pop out of blade waltz means that fiora is HIGHLY unreliable as a lategame teamfight assassin.

I like that you really don't know Zed's damage when he's your current main.



*Not counting gnar who is built as a tank anyway and transforms into a 2376 health monster.

 

[SuperBowser]

(not gonna comment on the wider discussion but) ^Fiora still has a hilariously high winrate for the dumb one-dimensional character she is. I don't think she is that bad in soloq teamfights. Fiora snowballs lots of lanes and many team comps simply do not have the CC/communication/map awareness/tankiness required to deal with her. One misplay, and she wrecks a team.

It's a similar situation to katarina solo queue - technically, she should get counterpicked/CC'ed to death, but this often does not happen. Katarina has maintained a reasonable winrate (?except season 3), even when people called her garbage.

Also, this ranked mmr system is weird. I played 10 promo games on my silver 5 account and somehow get plat 5. I only wanted to play troll games. Back to normal queue i go.

 

[adumbrodeus]

(not gonna comment on the wider discussion but) ^Fiora still has a hilariously high winrate for the dumb one-dimensional character she is. I don't think she is that bad in soloq teamfights. Fiora snowballs lots of lanes and many team comps simply do not have the CC/communication/map awareness/tankiness required to deal with her. One misplay, and she wrecks a team.

Mostly cause she's better at lower elos, she's a tier 1 lower elo pick but she plummets to 50.5% in diamond and higher.

This is because people are more likely to gank her and actually focus her down in teamfights, but she still retains her usefulness as a lane bully (as long as she doesn't get ganked) provided the matchup is decent and a crazy strong duelist and splitpusher. That's why she only plummets to mediocore not terrible.

It's a similar situation to katarina solo queue - technically, she should get counterpicked/CC'ed to death, but this often does not happen. Katarina has maintained a reasonable winrate (?except season 3), even when people called her garbage.

Don't see how hey're remotely the same, kat excells at roaming and doing aoe damage in teamfights while being highly mobile, yes people get better at focusing her at higher elos but kat players get better at exploiting her mobility and cleanup power for max effect which is why she only performs a little worse at high elos.

 

[SuperBowser]

Mostly cause she's better at lower elos, she's a tier 1 lower elo pick but she plummets to 50.5% in diamond and higher.

This is because people are more likely to gank her and actually focus her down in teamfights, but she still retains her usefulness as a lane bully (as long as she doesn't get ganked) provided the matchup is decent and a crazy strong duelist and splitpusher. That's why she only plummets to mediocore not terrible.

50.5% ain't bad. If she wins her lane, she will be a force to be reckoned with in teamfights for the reasons I said before. Soloq fail plays do not stop in diamond. I say this from experience.

Don't see how hey're remotely the same, kat excells at roaming and doing aoe damage in teamfights while being highly mobile, yes people get better at focusing her at higher elos but kat players get better at exploiting her mobility and cleanup power for max effect which is why she only performs a little worse at high elos.

High elo fiora players also do these things.
You know, there was a time when people said katarina was garbage for the exact reasons people say fiora is garbage now. Her laning sucks, she applies no map pressure because she gets bullied in lane, she's not hard to gank, she's easily focused down in teamfights, blablabla. She still wins.

(i know the general consensus about katarina is very different now, but those things have all been said about her before. i'm pretty sure people say that in this very thread if you go back far enough)

 

[Dre89]

Fiora used to have a 58% winrate in Diamond

When I said Fiora does more damage, I didn't mean in single target burst, I meant in overall damage. But the at the same time she has no issues bursting an ADC.

Also you don't need to Q another target first. You can just flank with a Ghostblade like Zed. The only tool Zed has for avoiding CC that she doesn't is Wing early to dodge it. I suppose Fiora can try Q to something else but that's harder. She still has flash, and if she gets close enough can use the ult to avoid CC.

Zed has a bigger peel window because when he gapcloses on you with ult he needs a few seconds to do his combo. Fiora can only be peeled in the Q, as she'll Hydra mid Q then ult immediately.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

The biggest bane to playing Fiora is that you give the enemy team a better top laner who can contribute more in mid to late game than she ever could on virtue of being one that offers more utility, more mobility, or more tankiness than her.

 

[adumbrodeus]

50.5% ain't bad. If she wins her lane, she will be a force to be reckoned with in teamfights for the reasons I said before. Soloq fail plays do not stop in diamond. I say this from experience.

I'm not talking about diamond fail plays, I'm talking about the simple mechanics and awareness, that's all that required to note that there's a melee adc running at your squishies and focus them down and kill them.

High elo fiora players also do these things.
You know, there was a time when people said katarina was garbage for the exact reasons people say fiora is garbage now. Her laning sucks, she applies no map pressure because she gets bullied in lane, she's not hard to gank, she's easily focused down in teamfights, blablabla. She still wins.

(i know the general consensus about katarina is very different now, but those things have all been said about her before. i'm pretty sure people say that in this very thread if you go back far enough)

She doesn't get bullied in lane, she has plenty of map pressure, you don't make your point very well when you're citing things that she doesn't actually have issues with just cause people said that about katarina

Keep in mind, riot mostly nerfs, so a lot of champions get powerful simply because everything above them got nerfed to their level. Except in mobility that is.

Fiora used to have a 58% winrate in Diamond

Different meta, junglers weren't top as much and she was better against the champions that laned top then. Play pattern was the same.

When I said Fiora does more damage, I didn't mean in single target burst, I meant in overall damage. But the at the same time she has no issues bursting an ADC.[/quote]

And you said she could assasinate individual targets, so I was comparing her to an actual assassin, that was the topic.

Yes, we know she's got insane damage scaling if she builds damage, nobody ever debated it, her problem is since she's melee if you expect her to function like an ADC she gets blown up. So you proposed the alternative teamfight role of assassination.

So why in the hell are you bringing it back to general damage? Could you please for once in your life actually discuss a topic in a directed fashion, especially when you brought up the topic? I'm not sure if you're trying to change the topic without indicating it for gotcha moments or you're just hyper ADD and entirely forgot what specifically we were talking about.

Goddamn it is frustrating trying to have any discussion about anything remotely complex.

Also you don't need to Q another target first. You can just flank with a Ghostblade like Zed. The only tool Zed has for avoiding CC that she doesn't is Wing early to dodge it. I suppose Fiora can try Q to something else but that's harder. She still has flash, and if she gets close enough can use the ult to avoid CC.

Because that doesn't give opponents a much larger window to peel her off? When her problem is already reliability this is a big issue.

Zed has a bigger peel window because when he gapcloses on you with ult he needs a few seconds to do his combo. Fiora can only be peeled in the Q, as she'll Hydra mid Q then ult immediately.

Huh?

Are we talking about the same zed? He pretty much instantly can cast when he appears, sure you have warning that he's ulting somebody becuase of the laugh but not who.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

I'm going to commit suicide when Nemesis Draft goes away.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Nooooo! Who am I gonna learn snark from then?

 

[Dre89]

Honestly I'm sick of talking about Fiora so I'm just gonna let it go lol.

However I'm not going to let slip you thinking that Zed casts his combo immediately after ulting. A good Zed will almost never instantly cast his combo as soon as he lands on the ADC. He would only do that if he knows the ADC has no mobility whatsoever (eg. an immobile ADC with flash down, or a mobile one with no flash that has also burned their blink). If you did that to an ADC with mobility that isn't ********, they will just juke your combo with their blink. That's why the standard ult combo on ADC is to ult, wait for them to blink, then W-E to get the slow on them, W to the shadow then BOTRK-Q-passive-more autos if possible. Some ADCs will stall their blink momentarily to try bait you into using their combo before they blink. In that case you get to BOTRK them before they blink.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Actually, its really hard to blink Zed's immediate burst without taking enough damage to already die as an adc. Zed can basically buffer his abilities while mid ult to happen the frame or so right after he appears, and if you flash even the slightest bit too early or late, you still eat Zed's burst. Add in ping and the fact that you're cooldowns arent always up, and it can often times be near impossible to dodge a decent Zed's burst as an adc.

 

[Dre89]

Actually, its really hard to blink Zed's immediate burst without taking enough damage to already die as an adc. Zed can basically buffer his abilities while mid ult to happen the frame or so right after he appears, and if you flash even the slightest bit too early or late, you still eat Zed's burst. Add in ping and the fact that you're cooldowns arent always up, and it can often times be near impossible to dodge a decent Zed's burst as an adc.

It's definitely not easy, it's a mindgame. Thing is if a Zed will use his combo immediately, he'll W behind them, so if you flash to the side right after he lands you'll dodge it. The optimal thing to do is flash diagonally backward. You want to go sideways to dodge the combo, but you also want to go backward so that if you do get hit you're not in range of the ult shadow's Q. I've had people do it to me before when I instantly W behind them and buffer the combo when the W is still coming out (I always buffer W combos). That's why I stopped going for it instantly, and started following their blink with my W. I've had way more success that way.

 

[Espy Rose]

Stop. Just stop.
Let's talk about AD Sion because that's more fun than anything else that's happened in the last two pages.

 

[Player-3]

dekar is the (2nd) best league player on this website and he plays stupid **** like soto rengar and somehow wins with that garbage and if somebody who plays with such ****TY ITEMS says a champ is bad the champ is BAD


also u dont outplay a zed ult as adc unless you have qss

you just die or the zed ****s it up lol he doesnt need to hit q to oneshot ur lil patootie