Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!

[Dre89]

Spelltheif line generates the most gold when used optimally but has the worst active. I thought relic line generated more gold than coin tbh, but the coin active is the best of the 3.

Edit- Why do people max Q on Alistar and not W? W has higher base damage at rank 2 onwards and has 70% AP scaling as opposed to 50% (not that you'd have much AP anyway).

 

[Sinister Slush]

I have barely been watching esports (just been going to see the results of matches) and haven't played league in 11 days I think. Any notable things in solo queue changed or PBE changes that might be interesting?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Why do people max Q on Alistar and not W? W has higher base damage at rank 2 onwards and has 70% AP scaling as opposed to 50% (not that you'd have much AP anyway).

AoE cc on a shorter cd. Much better for peeling and teamfighting. Why would you prioritize like 50 single target damage over more knock ups, especially when youre a tank meant for peeling. Besides, even if you wanted more damage, so long as youre hitting at least 2 people each Q in a teamfight, youre getting more damage out of a Q max than a W max.

 

[Dre89]

Damage matters in the laning phase though. It doesn't matter if you're using headbutt to peel, but it does matter if you're using it aggressively on the ADC. You'll get more burst damage on the ADC in lane by maxing headbutt. Although I can see why people would be willing to sacrifice damage to shave a couple more seconds off the better teamfighting ability.

In other news, I had a guy rage at me and presumably dodge a ranked game because I was going to take ignite on Shen instead of teleport lol. Even if teleport is technically better (in my experience it isn't), it's not like ignite is terrible and ragequitting because someone picked an option that many diamond players pick is pretty dumb. It's not like I was running clarity or something like that.

 

[Player-3]

ur alistar why do you care about lanephase ur going to get your **** packed in no matter what you do

 

[adumbrodeus]

Which is why it's maxed in solo lane ali. The thing is, bot lane is 2 on 2, the potential for knocking 2 people up, the better initiation potential having your combo up more often because pulv's base cd is much higher, and the superior gank support because pulverizes are effective when chasing whereas more headbutts is only effective when you're ahead of them.

All that versus more damage, if it were a poke ability then that would be worthwhile, but using it requires going all in so the superior damage doesn't make up for the loss in utility.

 

[Dre89]

But maxing Q doesn't increase the chance of getting a 2 person pulverise, it just increases the damage. Similarly maxing Q doesn;t increase your support in a gank because you're still not going to get 2 Qs off in an ordinary gank. Maxing W increases your 'support' more because you do more damage in the gank.

I think maxing W is better personally because you get more damage but you still keep the utility of Q by maxing it second, plus you can lower the CD with CDR. But at the same time I can see the logic behind maxing Q first and I respect it. To me it's an apples or oranges thing.

I'm just still baffled at the fact I got raged at for taking ignite over TP on Shen. That has got to be the first time I've ever seen somene rage at a solo laner for taking ignite.

 

[Ussi]

maxing Q first lets your W > Q more often as Q is a longer CD than W and maxing Q first puts it at the same CD as W.

This is mainly for drawn out skirmishes like dragon fights and such. Those seconds saved can make the difference between your carry dying or your carry getting a triple kill.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Exactly.

You know what else matters in a lane Dre? CC. And Pulverize does 2.5 of it while headbutt alone is only 1 second and pushes them away from your ad.
Dunno why it's so hard for you to understand. If you want to do damage while being a support than go ap Zyra and Annie or something lol.

Q and W maxing isn't anything like apples and oranges, it's more of... Apples and a rotten slab of meat. Which Alistar is if you go and max W instead of prioritizing Q and E.

 

[adumbrodeus]

But maxing Q doesn't increase the chance of getting a 2 person pulverise, it just increases the damage. Similarly maxing Q doesn;t increase your support in a gank because you're still not going to get 2 Qs off in an ordinary gank. Maxing W increases your 'support' more because you do more damage in the gank.

I think maxing W is better personally because you get more damage but you still keep the utility of Q by maxing it second, plus you can lower the CD with CDR. But at the same time I can see the logic behind maxing Q first and I respect it.

I'm just still baffled at the fact I got raged at for taking ignite over TP on Shen. That has got to be the first time I've ever seen somene rage at a solo laner for taking ignite.

It decreases the CD, which means over longer engages it can actually be up again and decreases the time til you can reengage because you really need both headbutt and pulv up for successful engages.

Also, that's not the case at all, depending on the jungler/midlaner/toplaner and your ADC's movesets and if you towerdive (which ali is quite good at even with the scarier towers because of his ulti), and whether or not they're pushed up it's quite likely there will be 2 especially if your jungler is CC oriented over damage.

Basically, if you're even or behind you probably can't fight them unless they make a large mistake so more pulverizes for a gank situation is better (and having more pulverizes is more valuable if they make an extreme mistake). Let's face it, Ali sorta sucks in lane so this is gonna be your situation unless you have successful ganks.

If you're ahead, you want your combo up as much as possible because having your combo up means you can make more trades.

15 to 35 damage simply isn't worth that.

 

[Dre89]

Exactly.

You know what else matters in a lane Dre? CC. And Pulverize does 2.5 of it while headbutt alone is only 1 second and pushes them away from your ad.
Dunno why it's so hard for you to understand. If you want to do damage while being a support than go ap Zyra and Annie or something lol.

Q and W maxing isn't anything like apples and oranges, it's more of... Apples and a rotten slab of meat. Which Alistar is if you go and max W instead of prioritizing Q and E.

It only knocks the enemy away if you want it too. If you're engaging on them you just do the E-Q combo to knock them up, and not away.

I said I understand and respect the logic behind it. I'm just surprised that it's the conventional wisdom to max Q first because tank/utility champs normally max their damage first and max their teamfight-utility spells last.

Adubrodeus- Even when bull is ahead, can he really trade constantly with the headbutt-pulverise? I don't play the champ much, but I feel like he can't tank too much minion damage and he has really steep mana costs, so it's not like he can spam it off cooldown anyway.

 

[Z'zgashi]

It only knocks the enemy away if you want it too. If you're engaging on them you just do the E-Q combo to knock them up, and not away.

Cooldowns. Q wont be up every time you W if youre not maxing Q. By your logic, you'll often be sitting on your W waiting for your Q cd anyway.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It only knocks the enemy away if you want it too. If you're engaging on them you just do the E-Q combo to knock them up, and not away.

You can't do that without both abilities up which is gated by Q's CD. Hence why you max it.

I said I understand and respect the logic behind it. I'm just surprised that it's the conventional wisdom to max Q first because tank/utility champs normally max their damage first and max their teamfight-utility spells last.

That's true of solo laning tanks because they have to win their lane and junglers so they can clear, supports generally either max their tank steriods or CC first and depend on their most of the lane damage, unless theoretically they're tank supports that primary poke in lane.

Adubrodeus- Even when bull is ahead, can he really trade constantly with the headbutt-pulverise? I don't play the champ much, but I feel like he can't tank too much minion damage and he has really steep mana costs, so it's not like he can spam it off cooldown anyway.

If you're ahead, a couple of trades should result in a kill or being force out of lane. A smart enemy lane won't keep taking it, but the shorter your cd, the sooner you can zone them out of CS after a successful trade, if they're not smart, they'll be dead before you go OOM anyway so it isn't gonna matter haha.

 

[Dre89]

The difference between the level 1 Q and max rank is 4 seconds. Even if you're ahead are you really going to be trading that often that 4 seconds really makes a difference? You're not going to be spamming it off CD, so 4 seconds doesn't make a difference in lane.

4 seconds is actually a big deal in teamfights though, but if you're maxing it second and have some CDR you'll have shaved some seconds off by the time teamfights come around anyway.

CDR normally isn't worth in lane unless you can spam the ability off CD. If you're not consistently making use of those extra seconds it's a wasted stat. CDR only really matters in teamfights, where it can be the difference between getting off a second spell rotation or not.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Even if you're ahead are you really going to be trading that often that 4 seconds really makes a difference?

Yes it does.
Bot lane is all about level 2 all ins or just engaging really hard even around levels 4-6. If you use your W to damage somebody for the fun of it, thresh/leona/Morg will most likely engage on your AD and **** on them cause all you have is your knock up instead of W to push away if morg uses r/Leona after she zenith blades to either push her away or the AD/thresh after landing hook.

Also the E-Q combo is Heal + pulverize lol. And dunno why you say CDR isn't worth in lane. CDR is always welcomed in every situation, especially since almost every single major support item has cdr anyways.

 

[BSL]

He meant W Q when he said it

 

[Dre89]

Heal pulverise legit yo. I think I confused it with Wukong's EQ combo lol.

I'm not saying to use W differently to how you normally would. Generally, you either use it to peel or you use to engage. I'm just saying that if you maxed W, you'd do more damage to the ADC in those instances that you'd normally engage had you maxed Q.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Most of Ali's hard engages involve Flash + Q to surprise them either under turret or when jungler is ganking. I think doing an all in with flash at level 2 is more risky so prolly do the Q+W combo is better to try and net first blood and getting ahead in lane.

Otherwise again Zyra Annie or Morg going AP support if you really wanna do damage while on support.
Level 1 Ali Q 2.5 sec of cc every 17 seconds 60 damage(no cdr and ap)
Level 5 Ali W 2 sec of cc every 20 seconds 530 damage(no cdr and ap, why're you building ap on moo moo?)

Level 5 Ali Q 5 sec of cc every 23 seconds 480 damage (no cdr and ap)
level 1 Ali W 1 sec of cc every 14 seconds 85 damage (no cdr and ap)
Not counting trample damage you're getting while using Q alone btw so technically more damage than W since you knock them away now that I remember lol.

Is that better? You're opting for 25/50 more base damage from level 1/5 W over more cc

 

[adumbrodeus]

The difference between the level 1 Q and max rank is 4 seconds. Even if you're ahead are you really going to be trading that often that 4 seconds really makes a difference? You're not going to be spamming it off CD, so 4 seconds doesn't make a difference in lane.

4 seconds is actually a big deal in teamfights though, but if you're maxing it second and have some CDR you'll have shaved some seconds off by the time teamfights come around anyway.

CDR normally isn't worth in lane unless you can spam the ability off CD. If you're not consistently making use of those extra seconds it's a wasted stat. CDR only really matters in teamfights, where it can be the difference between getting off a second spell rotation or not.

Yes, that matters.

That's 4 more seconds that that you can't zone them off the creep line and a 4 second longer window that they can engage on you with an advantage. That's pretty damn significant. A hell of a lot more significant then 15-25 damage on W is.

 

[Z'zgashi]

4 seconds is long as ****, wtf, are you serious lol.

 

[teluoborg]

Dre does it again lol.
Why are all of you trying to show numbers to explain something to someone who can't do math ?

We're talking about the guy who wants to poke with Janna's uncharged tornadoes.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I dunno why, the slim glimmer of light and hope that he learns? Audino...

 

[Dre89]

Dre does it again lol.
Why are all of you trying to show numbers to explain something to someone who can't do math ?

We're talking about the guy who wants to poke with Janna's uncharged tornadoes.

I'm sorry but where did I demonstrate that I can't do maths? Please point it out to me.

Also I charge them up. I just do it in the bush, I've said this before. Or I just try read which way they'll juke.

If you're going to be rude to someone unnecessarily, maybe you should read the forums properly and get your facts straight first.

On another note, do you guys take tp top lane in soloque? I've tried it but I prefer the kill potential of ignite.

 

[BSL]

I take TP with me on every character in top and mid.

 

[Dre89]

Honestly I hate when I'm jungling and my sololaners take tp, it means you won't get a kill with a level 3 gank.

 

[BSL]

Sounds like one of you isn't good enough

 

[Dre89]

It's pretty hard to kill someone at level 3 if they're not stupid when they have flash up. Normally to do that you need to CC them to force the flash, then CC them after the flash as well to finish them off.

 

[Sinister Slush]

k
Top situation: You try to kill them at level 3, they're forced to use flash and back. You push wave and get either level 4/5 as he teleports back and you going back to buy then use your teleport.
Repeat.
No flash for him this time, kill.

???
?

Mid Situation: Only reason you'd ever go in before 6 being cause jungler presence.

 

[Dre89]

I don't see how you could force a flash on someone good without ignite unless you get a gank though. If you could somehow outplay them super hard and force a flash without ignite, you probably could've just killed them with ignite.

I see why TP is good though. I just thought it was always more of a 5s thing because it requires coordination to use optimally. I say that, but I went on a 12 game winning streak with Shen. Shen's ult requires less coordination to use though because you don't require a ward placement.

Also I don't understand why you consider it ok to go in before 6 without jungler presence in top, but not in mid. Isn't top more likely to get camped by the jungler?

 

[Shaya]

red buff and the ability to get ontop of you is usually sufficient in killing someone at top, especially when it isn't renekton or riven.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Been taking TP since season 2, had now problems getting kills with jungler ganks.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lol Im usually more annoyed when the top laner takes Ignite over TP (not really though, but I do think TP is better on most meta things atm)

 

[BSL]

Sounds like one of you isn't good enough...

 

[Ussi]

Maokai support is fun.

Spellthief lets me spam saplings enough for poke and Maokai has such good all in potenial. Maokai also has sustain in his passive. Poke, sustain, and all in, whats not to like?

 

[Player-3]

you don't need ignite to have kill pressure top lane if you play actually good top laners

 

[Dre89]

you don't need ignite to have kill pressure top lane if you play actually good top laners

You probably won't have kill pressure against another top laner that's running ignite though. And if you're Croc with TP verses Dragon or Mundo or something that's also running TP, yeah you'd still have kill pressure, but with ignite you'd probably be able to kill them outright.

Not saying ignite is better or anything. I just hate that whenever I try out TP, a situation always pops up where I would've got a kill with ignite. Not having a teleport mid-lategame sucks though. Luckily for me I play Shen with ignite so I kill two birds with one stone because I have kill pressure in lane, and my teleport is better than everyone else's.

 

[Shaya]

When you start to play better people, or at the least people who know how to play match ups... laners don't die. If you know what you're dealing with at nearly every stage and don't do anything too overextending, in 1v1s you plainly just won't put yourself in a situation where you'll die. Even/close fights that result in your loss/win may happen, but if you don't have ignite while the other laner does, you wouldn't do something so dumb unless you had an advantage to press.

 

[Dre89]

When you start to play better people, or at the least people who know how to play match ups... laners don't die. If you know what you're dealing with at nearly every stage and don't do anything too overextending, in 1v1s you plainly just won't put yourself in a situation where you'll die. Even/close fights that result in your loss/win may happen, but if you don't have ignite while the other laner does, you wouldn't do something so dumb unless you had an advantage to press.

Firstly, please don't pull the 'when you verse better players' card because I've laned against plats and diamonds on the same server that you have, so I've played these 'better people' that you're talking about. I've 1v1d them before as Wukong (with ignite), who is a trash top laner.

And yeah that's exactly what I mean, good players won't die 1v1 unless they get ignited, so it's hard to have kill pressure without it. If they pick TP and you pick ignite, you're not guaranteed to get kills but you are guaranteed to zone them from CS if your champion is remotely strong.

I can see why TP is preferred in LCS though. Laners are always super safe there and generally don't try to 1v1 often, and mid-late game is all about objective trading, which TP is good for. I understand that ignite is more of a gamble, because if you don't get kills in lane, or at least zone them from a considerable amount of CS then TP would've been better.

 

[Shaya]

Well yeah, that's why I said people who know how to play match ups.
Which you do get the higher the elos you play, especially in draft pick.

Some characters are obviously better than others at forcing engagements. Bullies are bullies. But in general if you deal with a bully properly from the get go (respecting them), you don't get ****ed over and things like summoner spells only differentiate much if one side makes a mistake. Hence stuff like Teleport will, assuming competent opponents will allow more opportunities/value for gold generating plays than Ignite will, unless you're bringing in ganks into your lane in which case Ignite may or may not give you the kill, but generally would still otherwise force that person to back, which usually results in a free tower/lots of free farm and a lead to be gained that can be further abused.

tl;dr team play rather than solo play.

 

[Dre89]

But would an ignite Renekton zone the enemy out of more CS than a TP Renekton? I always assumed it would but I could be wrong.