Fox is back, kicking *** with his amazingness. Is he still the best character in the game? I say, probably. Which of the new characters gives fox a hard time? How does fox need to evolve (if at all) to beat these new challengers?
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Good ol' fox. Is he still the best?
- Thread starter foshio
- Start date
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
By far.
10STiers
10STiers
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Uthrow->uair still does mad work on a lot of characters.
`dazrin
Smash Champion
Not to mention that it's much easier to use Fox in this game. 
Scariest part is: This isn't even his final form- not all of his stuff works exactly like it does in melee yet (see: shield pressure/ waveshining)
Scariest part is: This isn't even his final form- not all of his stuff works exactly like it does in melee yet (see: shield pressure/ waveshining)
QWA
Smash Apprentice
Definitely, and he also has a bit of an edge because we don't have Melee Battlefield to counter-pick against him for its glitchy ledges.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
He wasn't the best character in SSBM.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Don't you mean... currently isn't?
cannedbread
Smash Lord
fox mad dumb
Thing about fox is, how would you even tone him down to make him worse. Even if his upsmash killed at like 150 it really wouldn't change that much, he'd just have to beat you down longer. I agree with Neko, characters can punish fox for techincal mistakes. Watching Mango vs Fly amanita was so good because mango plays so well but almost every mistake was punished hard which made it a close(ish) set.
Ikes pretty good at punishing too and fox can't link his up throw uair properly so ike doesn't get punished as hard as he could. I think lucas, squirtle, pikachu and tink have good edge gaurding and defensive options against fox which makes the matchups interesting. Pikachu especially has really hard punishes, edge gaurding and a defense that sets up into combos. He also has a really good recovery which can be challenging for fox. I don't know much about diddy but something about him makes me think that he and fox will have good sets in the future.
Ikes pretty good at punishing too and fox can't link his up throw uair properly so ike doesn't get punished as hard as he could. I think lucas, squirtle, pikachu and tink have good edge gaurding and defensive options against fox which makes the matchups interesting. Pikachu especially has really hard punishes, edge gaurding and a defense that sets up into combos. He also has a really good recovery which can be challenging for fox. I don't know much about diddy but something about him makes me think that he and fox will have good sets in the future.
cannedbread
Smash Lord
every game needs a bad guy i suppose
or is fox actually the hero?
the world may never know
or is fox actually the hero?
the world may never know
Fox is the hero.
Falco is the villian.
Wolf is the dark knight.
Back on topic. I feel like that Fox will be able to take better advantage of brawl's tricks compared to the rest of the cast.
Stuff like C-stick usmash out of run, RARing, B-reversals.
Can Fox still DACUS?
Falco is the villian.
Wolf is the dark knight.
Back on topic. I feel like that Fox will be able to take better advantage of brawl's tricks compared to the rest of the cast.
Stuff like C-stick usmash out of run, RARing, B-reversals.
Can Fox still DACUS?
Mr. Happy :)
Smash Cadet
Do you guys feel he has any bad match ups?
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Problem2
Smash Champion
tripwire
Smash Journeyman
Cept halberd is usually banned on stage-lists?
himemiya
Smash Lord
Well will stay number 1 and will make sure of that. And pmbr will make sure that the newcomer don't come out better then fox. I hope metaknight comes in and kicks fox down to number two.
himemiya
Smash Lord
pikachu dominated 64,Fox dominated melee, and metaknight dominated brawl sooo what of it. Metaknight is a badass and fox is not so metaknight deserves to stay number 1. How would a character that deserves to stay number 1 will make pm a laughing stock? Fox had a good 12 years to be number 1 now let metaknight have its time.
Fox doesn't dominate Melee at all.
64 is a different bag of worms.
MK makes Brawl look bad because of his lol design and the game itself, and having him be top in P:M is not a good thing because it can be considered contradictory when you take how PMBR balances into mind.
Because to usurp fox from his throne, you have to be better than Fox in every way possible, if not, most ways. Meaning, he'd have to intentionally be made more ridiculous than Fox.
You see why this wont shine well on P:M?
People will just start going, "WOW. They made MK more broken than Brawl! wtf?"
Also, no one, and i mean no one deserves to stay #1 at all. If Fox does lose his #1 spot, he wont be buffed back into it. :V
64 is a different bag of worms.
MK makes Brawl look bad because of his lol design and the game itself, and having him be top in P:M is not a good thing because it can be considered contradictory when you take how PMBR balances into mind.
Because to usurp fox from his throne, you have to be better than Fox in every way possible, if not, most ways. Meaning, he'd have to intentionally be made more ridiculous than Fox.
You see why this wont shine well on P:M?
People will just start going, "WOW. They made MK more broken than Brawl! wtf?"
Also, no one, and i mean no one deserves to stay #1 at all. If Fox does lose his #1 spot, he wont be buffed back into it. :V
Gea
Smash Master
From what I've seen right now Fox players who try out Project M have issues with some stuff because of how resets work compared to Melee. They are still wonky, right? That and I see sweetspot bair seems to be a bit less brutal due to whatever. He still kills super early off the top.
himemiya
Smash Lord
Actually it does sound like that.
himemiya
Smash Lord
I'm saying it actually sounds like pmbr wants fox/falco to stay in the top and if a character happens to be better then them then they get nerfed so fox/falco can stay at the top.
No? We focus more on design than balancing. We're not going to intentionally make a character better than Fox, but if a character ends up being better than Fox, while having a solid design and isn't silly like spacies, then they're not going to get nerfed just because they're better than Fox.
It's all about design.
It's all about design.
rjgbadger
Banned via Warnings
i think lucas might be better than fox
lucas is the spacie
lucas is the spacie
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
I think I would decrease damage on a lot of his moves (or almost all of them) by one or two (shine included), maybe more if necessary, so that they can be crouch canceled to higher percents (except shine, since I do believe it can't be crouch canceled because of the knockback angle), do less shield stun (making his pressure a little less perfect), and reducing the amount of reward he gets for successful punishes. People tend to underestimate how significant damage nerfs/buffs are and just go "Oh well it's just a damage change, they can still kill well" when damage done also affects other things like those listed above, which also make it harder/easier for characters to consistently beat down on a character for longer so they can compensate for the change. If you do that, you also don't violate the frame perfect muscle memory of so many fox players, so you don't get as many complaints about nerfs since most everything still works at the same pace, just a little less well.
Fox Hater
Smash Journeyman
True he isnt, he has bad MU well kind of, not imposible or counter but 6/4 ( i dont consider 6-4 to b a counter BTW)
Jigs
Peach
Falco
Marth
Dont get me wrong Fox has all the necesarry tools to beat these guys
it just takes less effort for them. There are stages where fox can make it a 5/5 MU vs Peach or MarthSheik is 5/5 against him that is my opinion although all the top fox pro players lately Ive seen them destryed by M2K or KirbyKaze
Fox may seem easy to use but he need a really good execution to perform well in a Major and he gets punished really Bad. That my friends does not make a character the Best in melee.
Even back in the good old days of melee you did not see Fox wining Majors
The list of dominant characters by its era goes like this
2005-07
Ken with Marth
M2k ( who used Fox changed to Marth and began winning Majors)
PC chris Falco ( he used fox but for the Top 8 he used falco, when he tried fox he lost
in evo North)Late 2007-09
M2K with his marth and
Mango with Jiggs
Late 2009-11 Mango: Jiggs, Falco;
Armada: Peach
Hbox: Jiggs;
M2K had its glory in 09 with his marth but by 2010 started loosing badly to armada and he switched to sheik
2012-
Dr Pee Pee: Falco;
Mango: Falco ( and he managed to win a major with Fox but there were not really a lot of top players in that tournament. but the rest of the Big Majors he failed the closest was Apex and in GF he gets destroyed by Peach)
Armada: Peach
M2K: Sheik and Marth for bad MU
So Far in the List I saw Peach and Jiggs with Falco on the side with a dominating career in the last couple of years. Sheik is beggining to show face.
Back in the day Marth dominated but with the change of the metagame we dont see Marth dominating that Much although I've seen PewPewU and he looks promising. I think most of it all depends on people to Pick Marth Again
For me I feel characteristics of a Best Character in a game are: Dominating Performance By players, Good MU and Ease of Use. Peach,Jiggs and Sheik Gather all 3. Falco its debatable the ease of use but has Dominating Performance by players and Good MU.
Fox well i rest my case
So you say fox the best character? Some Top S char right ?...
For those of you that are going to (like always ) say im wrong I want proof of a major tournament a FOX won Before. OC1, OC2, OC3... The MLG tournaments. Evo 2007. in Japan. ROM. POUND
Im too old for this **** lol hehehe
And please Fox is not a bad character and he has all the tools to win Tournaments dont get me wrong.
My Top Tier goes like this
Peach and Jiggs Tied for First
Falco
Sheik
Fox
Marth ( if Marth players step it up they can take fox down)
Sorry but so far Ive seen tryhard players like Mango play the best fox there is ( for now...) and he cant win. The thing is you cant play perfect all the time. And every mistake in High lvl play with fox its a stock you lose ;(
PM with all the balancing and stuff I dont see fox becoming the best anytime soon. I think he is high tier now.
RFrizzle
Smash Ace
Fox's only losing match up is falco dude...
Fox Hater
Smash Journeyman
lol apparently u cant read wellFox's only losing match up is falco dude...
So that leaves Falco and Jiggs -_-
And I never said a losing matchup cause I dont consider he has one. None of the Tops chars has one. its harder to win but not counter. So in a way you are the only one saying fox has one losing match up.
I do consider falco and Jiggs a dificult match.
And I think I made a good statement that fox is no the best in melee but is a Top character nonetheless
capable of winning tournaments.
RFrizzle
Smash Ace
Jiggs is even if not foxs favor. Either you are trolling or you don't know what a losing match-up is.
tripwire
Smash Journeyman
The Fox jiggs match up isn't even 70:30 i thought?
Edit:Nvm I should really read more lol.
Edit:Nvm I should really read more lol.
Life
Smash Hero
Fox is the best character in individual matches. Fox is not the best character over an entire tournament.
How's that sound?
How's that sound?
RFrizzle
Smash Ace
Falco is best because he has no losing matchups. Fox is 2nd because he has one.
Fox Hater
Smash Journeyman
I know most people read on forums and think fox is the best. But no, being the best, it takes consistency.
In SF4 Vanilla Sagat Was considered the best character and people proved it by winning major tournaments all the time. Second runner up was Ryu.
In smash there was an Idea that fox was better and somehow people still believe that. Not that he is not a top character we are not debating that.
But history shows us that he hasnt being able to be consistent, he gets far but it doesnt win tournaments. Falco does, peach does, Jiggs and sheik does. Even Marth in the past.
Fox has the capability to win tournaments but is harder thats all. Its takes almost perfection to win therefore lacks consitency and he is not the best character period.
About the match ups, well that is a bit subjective so I wont debate that. I believe ( and in high lvl play we've seen it before ) fox loses more than he wins against Peach, Jiggs, Falco. Its a no brainer and look out sheik
If it were for match up wise Ill say sheik is the better, she dominates almost the entire cast because of chaingrab and does fairly well against the Tops ( Peach, Jiggs, Fox, Marth) Her only troublesome match is Falco. Sheik very is easy to use, but her easy learning curve has being her demise limiting players to explore the character to max potential until guys like M2K, KirbyKaze, Korean Dj really took sheik to the next lvl.
Compared to fox who gets punished badly by most of the cast. Not meaning that he has bad match ups, just making a contrast comparison over sheik...
Also fox is one of the most used character, diferent to peach and Jiggs you cant say that pros have not tried before. Even Mango who is one of the best has to change characters against a good marth, sheik sometimes and to falco. And has constantly lost to peach.
U dont see peach player, Falco players or Jiggs player switching... Well armada once YL vs Hbox and I love that hehe
Last I love fox even though my nick says the contrary because of a inside joke back in 06. But facts are facts....
And I dont believe in tiers that much, people have to learn match ups. Hell I saw a yoshi vid yesterday that amazed me, so props to him and I hope people devotes more with diferent characters and dont stick to tier lists
In SF4 Vanilla Sagat Was considered the best character and people proved it by winning major tournaments all the time. Second runner up was Ryu.
In smash there was an Idea that fox was better and somehow people still believe that. Not that he is not a top character we are not debating that.
But history shows us that he hasnt being able to be consistent, he gets far but it doesnt win tournaments. Falco does, peach does, Jiggs and sheik does. Even Marth in the past.
Fox has the capability to win tournaments but is harder thats all. Its takes almost perfection to win therefore lacks consitency and he is not the best character period.
About the match ups, well that is a bit subjective so I wont debate that. I believe ( and in high lvl play we've seen it before ) fox loses more than he wins against Peach, Jiggs, Falco. Its a no brainer and look out sheik
If it were for match up wise Ill say sheik is the better, she dominates almost the entire cast because of chaingrab and does fairly well against the Tops ( Peach, Jiggs, Fox, Marth) Her only troublesome match is Falco. Sheik very is easy to use, but her easy learning curve has being her demise limiting players to explore the character to max potential until guys like M2K, KirbyKaze, Korean Dj really took sheik to the next lvl.
Compared to fox who gets punished badly by most of the cast. Not meaning that he has bad match ups, just making a contrast comparison over sheik...
Also fox is one of the most used character, diferent to peach and Jiggs you cant say that pros have not tried before. Even Mango who is one of the best has to change characters against a good marth, sheik sometimes and to falco. And has constantly lost to peach.
U dont see peach player, Falco players or Jiggs player switching... Well armada once YL vs Hbox and I love that hehe
Last I love fox even though my nick says the contrary because of a inside joke back in 06. But facts are facts....
And I dont believe in tiers that much, people have to learn match ups. Hell I saw a yoshi vid yesterday that amazed me, so props to him and I hope people devotes more with diferent characters and dont stick to tier lists
Gea
Smash Master
You know Falco gets deathtouched just as hard as Fox. Getting death touched doesn't mean Fox is magically not second best in the game. Or third best, it doesn't matter. He's so high that he's viable to win everything in Melee so it doesn't matter what he's ranked. He's 100% viable and proven as such.