Good ol' fox. Is he still the best?

[GHNeko]

Agreed.

Regardless, I'll stay of the opinion that the #1 character in Melee who now has a lower skill floor and a higher skill ceiling, and as of now, has recieved no nerfs, new tools through the inclusion and introduction of new mechanics, is still #1.

 

[himemiya]

What they mk kinda of like that can he still be number 1 then?

 

[GHNeko]

What they mk kinda of like that can he still be number 1 then?

 

[himemiya]

If metaknight was more like fox can he still be number 1 (I know pmbr is thinking about nerfing him in a way)?

 

[GHNeko]

If MK was on par with fox, without being so silly like Fox and just naturally good, then he could be #1 lol.

 

[himemiya]

Then that what needs to happen.

 

[GHNeko]

Well no one is going to intentionally make him as good or better than Fox. it's just something that has to happen, and when it does, his design needs to be extremely well done and fair before he's left alone.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I think I would decrease damage on a lot of his moves (or almost all of them) by one or two (shine included). If you do that, you also don't violate the frame perfect muscle memory of so many fox players, so you don't get as many complaints about nerfs since most everything still works at the same pace, just a little less well.

^Pretty much my thoughts for Fox in the future.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think we should call Fox the worst character in the game even though he's the best anyway so when Fox players lose they can just john about using a bad character.

 

["Shion"]

He wasn't the best character in SSBM.

Oh, you poor *******.

 

[G13_Flux]

the only thing ill agree with about fox is that he has great MUs overall, and thats in melee, not PM. u people are acting like fox is some sort of god sent down from the heavens. i mean fox is good, but hes not THAT good. hes got a lot of strengths, but he also has weaknesses as well. combo and edgeguard his a$$ all day. a lot of characters have gotten really good in PM. More have intricate combos, more have better edguarding skills, more of them have new skills that werent in PM that shift the metagame slightly. In addition to this, i think everyone is looking far to in to character stats. what ever happened to the good old days when people would learn a character, become great with them, and then outsmart another player regardless of the character they faced? its like u guys are attributing tournamnet wins to the character itself, why dont u attribute it to the player. if u wanna take down fox, stop trying to find a character to do it, find a PERSON to do it. mango doesnt win with fox because hes playing fox, he wins because hes a good player and he know how to use fox. just take other players as an example, characters like armada and M2k that weve seen easily beat foxes. they win because theyre good players, not because they are using a better character than fox.

 

["Shion"]

You, son, don't understand tier lists.

What you say does make sense, but it's false.

Two players of same skill, one Fox one DeDeDe, who do you think will win?

The answer is goddamn obvious.

 

[Ace55]

Peach tied for 1st? Fox 5th?

 

[Hashtag]

You, son, don't understand tier lists.

What you say does make sense, but it's false.

Two players of same skill, one Fox one DeDeDe, who do you think will win?

The answer is goddamn obvious.

I actually might call it close. Fox may take majorty of the matches out of 10, but it wouldn't be by much I think. I think the match momentum could shift at the drop of a hat pretty easily, which is what the PMBR is working towards as far as balance goes.

Fox is good, but I don't think he's god now compared to the rest of the cast.

Edit: he's also on top because theoretically, if played to the highest possible level of performance possible, he would be next to unstoppable. To bad that it's impossible for a human to do with 100% consistency.

 

[nessrocks08]

Anyone think that shine should be a little less op? I mean, it's really strong, and destroys characters like falcon? Maybe a different kind of knockback or the ability for the player getting hit to "di" at a more favorable angle (instead of being sent diagonally down). Also, not sure if it's been implemented, but maybe make it easier to tech when used against walls and stuff?

 

[The Business]

[stuff]

tournament results don't determine the tier list.

 

[tripwire]

Does Fox still have his walking moonwalk in PM?

 

[GHNeko]

yes he can.

 

[himemiya]

the only thing ill agree with about fox is that he has great MUs overall, and thats in melee, not PM. u people are acting like fox is some sort of god sent down from the heavens. i mean fox is good, but hes not THAT good. hes got a lot of strengths, but he also has weaknesses as well. combo and edgeguard his a$$ all day. a lot of characters have gotten really good in PM. More have intricate combos, more have better edguarding skills, more of them have new skills that werent in PM that shift the metagame slightly. In addition to this, i think everyone is looking far to in to character stats. what ever happened to the good old days when people would learn a character, become great with them, and then outsmart another player regardless of the character they faced? its like u guys are attributing tournamnet wins to the character itself, why dont u attribute it to the player. if u wanna take down fox, stop trying to find a character to do it, find a PERSON to do it. mango doesnt win with fox because hes playing fox, he wins because hes a good player and he know how to use fox. just take other players as an example, characters like armada and M2k that weve seen easily beat foxes. they win because theyre good players, not because they are using a better character than fox.

So you're saying if brawl metaknight went against melee fox metaknight would win?

 

[Vixen]

PM Fox is still the best character in the game imho.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You, son, don't understand tier lists.

What you say does make sense, but it's false.

Two players of same skill, one Fox one DeDeDe, who do you think will win?

The answer is goddamn obvious.

The DeDeDe player, if they're both of the same skill level.

 

[GHNeko]

Why would you say that?

 

[tripwire]

I'm expecting he will say " grabs->gimp" .

 

[Sixth-Sense]

The only reason i would say he's still the best, or well the best in THIS game is because the tech skill required has been toned down consideribly, thanks to the bugs that the PMBR have yet to resolve, becuase of that he's much easier to use, and the player's consistency with Fox's tech skill isn't as demanding compared to melee fox. That mean's you (being the scrub that the majority are) don't have to worry as much about tech skill and can focus on simply out-playing your oppenent.

I also think Falco is #1 in melee, JIC

 

[Vixen]

fox is #1 in melee.

Falco does well because people are stupid. Also because the good falco mains are just better players.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm actually of the opinion that Falco is the best character against humans.
Fox is best on paper.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

I'm actually of the opinion that Falco is the best character against humans.
Fox is best on paper.

So am I, unless M2K suddenly goes to his 2007 final form but with today's metagame, and unless everyone is m2k, then falco is the best versus real oppenents. Plus i've always thought that using falco is a little riskier (although both spacies get touched, they are usually dead) but the payoff is greater, and i think his edgeguards are better too.

 

[tripwire]

So i pulled off Fox's Moonwalk in training mode under slow down time. Seems less significant in PM than melee unless I'm not doing it right yet.

 

[SpiderMad]

Well you're walking first right? You don't need slow-mo, but I guess that's better for testing how good it is done perfectly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f5XPw2vEh0

 

[RomeDogg]

To everyone saying to nerf Fox for balancing f that. I think he should still be the best in PM like Falco. To me no one should be better than those two.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I wouldn't mind if like, Yoshi or someone difficult were better than them, although yoshi seems like he would be a really weird top tier. Wolf or Lucas works too. Pit would be an annoying as **** top tier. Besides, it's more fun for everyone and less annoying for the melee spacies mains if everyone is just given the tools of the top tiers and the tools to counter them rather than take those tools away from the current top.

Spoiler

when mewtwo comes back he'll be top tier though

Spoiler

and hopefully technically challenging and deep

 

[GHNeko]

To everyone saying to nerf Fox for balancing f that. I think he should still be the best in PM like Falco. To me no one should be better than those two.

Sure is entitlement here.

No one deserves their tier spot.

If Fox/Falco get knocked off 1st/2nd place, then so be it.

 

[ELI-mination]

To everyone saying to nerf Fox for balancing f that. I think he should still be the best in PM like Falco. To me no one should be better than those two.

Lol why? Like what's your reason for saying something like that?

It's nice to know that some people, rather than care about overall game design, are more concerned with cementing their traditional beliefs without a reason to back it up. But if you have one that isn't some iteration of "because melee", I'd like to hear it.

 

[RomeDogg]

Fox and Falco are still "combo to death tier", as in the entire cast has no problem destroying them in 0-death combos. Also Peach and Marth are still doing better than them like always. Since fox/falco are so technical mistakes cost them a stock and everyone makes mistakes. Also "because Melee" is like the best argument you must not like that argument because you know no rebuttal can debunk it. Melee was an amazing game why wouldn't you want them just like Melee fox and falco? Bottom line is smash is a risk reward kind of game. You have the biggest risk playing Fox or Falco because of how hard they get ***** and at the same time you get the biggest reward by playing them because of how hard they **** the cast. To me that is fair odds.

 

[G13_Flux]

i think the PMBR made a great choice by not nerfing fox and falco. This just ups the copmetiveness and metagame altogether. Regardless of whether or not fox and falco are still 1 and 2 (which i absolutely do not believe), i dont think anyone can deny that the competitive gap has decreased. meaning that you no longer have a couple absolutely dominant characters, a few good characters, and then the rest aweful characters. instead you have a lot of good characters, and maybe some Ok characters. nobody is awful in PM imo, and nobody is absolutely dominant. this decreased gap is going to give everyone a better chance vs spacees on a whole, and they are in no way still completely dominant like in melee.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Fox and Falco are still combo to death tier, The entire cast has no problem destroying them in 0-death combos. Also Peach and Marth are still doing better than them like always. Since they are so technical mistakes cost them a stock and everyone makes mistakes. Also "because Melee" is like the best argument you must not like that argument because you know no rebuttal can debunk it. Melee was an amazing game why wouldn't you want them just like Melee fox and falco? Bottom line is smash is a risk reward kind of game. You have the biggest risk playing Fox or Falco because of how hard they get ***** and at the same time you get the biggest reward by playing them because of how hard they **** the cast. To me that is fair odds.

I can understand them being exactly like thier melee iterations, which is fair, but not a single character deserves the #1 spot or 2nd either just because, they are there for a reason, if PM ends up having lucario as #1 or in the crazy alternate dimension, G&W ends up being #1, then it's because of thier development and current metagame, not because they deserve it. But i totally agree with you on nerfing them, that is and will always be a sin in the smash community (ok no the melee community) but you get the idea. Plus thier advances as a character is too much to just change, and as Rome said, they are and will prob. continue being the most technical characters (although i bet given the time, lucariyu will knock off falco as 2nd most tech.)

On another note, being able to double-laser camp with ease feels amazing

 

[RomeDogg]

The only reason I don't think another character should be better than Fox or Falco is because when they are used at their full potential they are borderline broken anything above that then I think we are in trouble is all. I would welcome characters to be as good as them though. Like having two or so other characters tied with Falco and Fox as being the best without surpassing them.

Though I think if they were as good as Falco or Fox they would really need a huge weakness like the weakness both Falco and Fox posses.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Borderline broken is having a moveset of OHKOs that have different reaches and hitbox placements and timings for near maximally effective killing. ACTUAL broken is having a single OHKO that comes out instantly and reaches anywhere on the stage. Short of those things, the characters aren't actually broken. Just comparatively good, or comparatively VERY good, like MK. What's with this obsession that nobody can be put on fox/falco's level with the proper changes?

 

[RomeDogg]

What I am really trying to express is that Fox and Falco set the standard. It would be horrible having a monstrosity like vBrawl Meta Knight in Project M. I just think everyone should be as good as falco and fox or below.

 

[G13_Flux]

im definitely gonna have to disagree with falco being the most technical character. fox definitely holds that over him, and wolf definitely does too. just think of all the side b shortens that wolf can perform to various characters of varying percents to be able to hit them out of a set up. he also has a variety of wavebounce techniques he can do with blaster, in addition to a couple ledge tricks he can do with blaster that involve taking full use of invincibilty. in addition, im gonna have to say lucario lucas and ness are a tad more technical than him.

i think that wether or not someone is going to overtake fox is going to be a matter of a character having some set of tools that allow for very efficient and quick kills and can apply to a variety of the cast. this is something that i dont think will fully reveal itself in PM for quite some time. its not a matter of making the characters better than them or as good as them, its gonna be a matter of how the characters that have been created fight against the entirety of the cast in general, and this is something that cant be foreseen by any PMBR member. honestly, with the amount of changes theyve made to characters so far, i dont think its going to be a metter of which character is the bestm its now going to be a matter of which player is the best. i think that with an intelligent player, pretty much all of the characters can be played at a close enough level that a tier list is going to be largely inaccurate. PM has something that no other smash game has ever had. moderation. throughout these demos, changes have been made that consistenly monitor characters and modify them towards flexibility, fairness, and competitiveness. im not saying im neccisarily anti teir, but i dont think that teir lists are going to be predicting overall tournament results this time around. its going to be a much more even spread once the metagame develops