Global Character Guides - Zelda

[Virgilijus]

Hello, all! For those that don't know me, I'm Virg. I moderate things. I'm also in charge of the newly founded Discussion Leader group and I had an idea sprout in my head not too long ago.

Every individual character board is quite different and many are truly contrasting. Seeing as how I'm tasked with encouraging discussion and help throughout the boards, I thought that maybe encouraging some similar layouts on each board would help new people (or board hermits) that eventually strolled into other boards. Not that they would get lost, but just that it would be easier and the process alone would be gratifying.

So with that, I'm here for a proposition (not of that kind!): a reformatting and update of the character guide, if it needs one. I see a lot of good threads...though I have a feeling some are out of date or could use some sprucing. But I digress.

So for those of you that don't want to read: I would like to try to get every character board to clean up and organize their character board guides/stickies. Some are fine as is. Others...not so much. I'm asking this for a shot of dialogue and cross communication throughout the boards as well as making the stickies less cluttersome.

So, what do you guys say? This is all voluntary. Just wanted to try to spruce the boards up a bit. If you have any opinions or questions, I'd be happy to hear them

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I like this idea. There are quite a few outdated guides/threads that need updating.
It would be nice if all the boards looked the same. lawl...


Edit:

Y'know, we need a Zelda guide similar to this one:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158672

Just with more updates.

 

[-Mars-]

No it wouldn't be nice, I like how all of the character boards are unique. Each character board has a unique personality and atmosphere that seperates it from the others.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

No it wouldn't be nice, I like how all of the character boards are unique. Each character board has a unique personality and atmosphere that seperates it from the others.

It's fine to keep the uniqueness of the different boards, but it is for the newer members remember.

They may be accustomed to a different layout from another character board and may not take up a another main because they have no idea what to do on that character board.

*sigh...* (Why do I feel this will turn into an argument...)

 

[Kataefi]

It won't.

We do need a new guide though, and desperately. Chins up everyone, let's pitch in some ideas... anyone got any ideas?

 

[MrEh]

I like how all of the character boards are unique. Each character board has a unique personality and atmosphere that seperates it from the others.

Zelda boards are known for theorycraft.

That's not something good.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Good. lol. I think the Peach boards have some awesome guides. They are relatively easy to understand and go through her moves etc etc. Of course, we don't want to EXACTLY copy them though.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

No it wouldn't be nice, I like how all of the character boards are unique. Each character board has a unique personality and atmosphere that seperates it from the others.

but there should be at least a central information thread on every board that's pretty similar in format, otherwise, other character board frequenters will have no idea where to find anything.

 

[SinkingHigher]

p.s. I posted this in the Sheik version, thought I might tell you guys....

"I agree wholeheartedly that the Sheik guide (and therefore Zelda guide) really need some updating.

In all honesty, though, I really have no intention or inclination to keep it updated anymore after certain... developments... in the boards. If anyone wants to take it over, feel free. You can PM me or something if you want me to send you a text version of the guide. "

 

[XFadingNirvanaX]

but there should be at least a central information thread on every board that's pretty similar in format, otherwise, other character board frequenters will have no idea where to find anything.

This. We can still maintain the Zelda board personality. The only thing that would change are the guide layouts.

 

[Kataefi]

What's the first thing that comes into people's minds when they think of a guide? Matchups? Moveset? Strategies? What are new people expecting to see?

 

[GodAtHand]

Personally When I was first looking at characters in Melee when I was like.... 13. I wanted to see Movesets first. Including all Specials and A moves, with descriptions on what they are and when to effectively use them... Maybe even some AT's if any related to the move, or links to them in the AT section.

The best ones for me had pictures too...

EX:

Up Tilt.
Picture*
Description-
Killing %'s
General Use Strat
Advanced Use Strat - Like Dtilt Uptilt combo.

 

[Ochobobo]

What's the first thing that comes into people's minds when they think of a guide? Matchups? Moveset? Strategies? What are new people expecting to see?

I think Moveset first, and then ways to use them second (Strategies/AT)

Matchups are constantly being updated, so it could probably just have a link to the matchup thread.

 

[MrEh]

A guide should be full of information that helps people play better. That's all there is to it. As long as it accomplishes this, I don't care what's in it. I just hope it's written by a competent player.

 

[stealth3654]

When I first started looking at guides, the first thing I wanted to know about was the moveset. I wanted to see what the move was, how much damage it does, and how can it be used effectively during a match. Pictures are a big plus.

Edit: Or we can do what the Mario boards are doing: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227634

 

[KayLo!]

This was already linked in the OP, but for people who missed it, here's what the Pikachu guide looks like:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225527

Not to toot our own horn, but I think we did a really great job with ours, and I would love to see the Zeldas come up with something similarly helpful for new members. When I first came here, I remember being disappointed with the Zelda guides because they were outdated and seemed to focus more on ATs and tricks rather than basic strategies and moveset analysis. We could definitely use something more.... fundamental.

Granted, Zelda's guide wouldn't have to be as long and complicated as Pika's, because she's a simpler character (we also just wanted ours to be crazy thorough).... I think it's doable within two weeks or so.

Whoever's leading this project, I'd be more than willing to contribute. I particularly like doing move analysis stuff..... I wrote the one for the Pika guide, if examples of my work are needed.

EDIT:

After looking at the Pika guide and cutting out what I think is unnecessary for Zelda, this is a possible outline/table of contents I came up with. Just a suggestion, of course.

- Introduction (background & gen. info on Zelda in and out of Smash, incl. pros & cons of her as a Brawl character)
- Move Analysis
- Offensive Zelda (combos, lolapproaches, killing, edgeguarding, tech chasing)
- Defensive Zelda (camping, defensive spacing, stage control, baiting & punishing, evasion)
- Recovery (DI/momentum canceling, recovery options from high/mid/low to the stage, options from the ledge)
- Advanced Techniques
- FAQ (incl. questions like best/worst matchups, best/worst stages, best secondaries for a zelda main, etc.)
- Credits

Offensive/Defensive stuff could be combined and arranged a few different ways..... they don't have to be split up like that. Again, these are just ideas from me.

 

[Kataefi]

If we can get an experienced tournament player to lead this project then I think we're good to go. But we all need to be very tolerant of our different playstyles and experiences with certain moves and matchups. If one person uses a move differently to others then we must embrace that.

EDIT: Also... 2 things:

1) Because it's what the cool kids do now xD, I'm going to post in this amazing colour!

2) Kaylo's format looks really good. I also love what the marios are doing as well, maybe we can come up with a hybrid of some sort between those 2 different styles?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

For example? (LOL I copied the format from the Pika Guide )

Strengths & Weaknesses

<Insert Paragraph about Zelda Here>

Zelda Strengths:
- Quick Smashes
- Din's is great for pressuring off-stage opponents

Zelda's Weaknesses:
- Light, floaty, tall character
- Bad grabs
- Bad Aerials
- 3rd slowest character in the game

etc etc?

I'm sure there are other things you could put there... lol

 

[Ochobobo]

Zelda's Weaknesses:
- Light, floaty, tall character
- Bad grabs
- Bad Aerials
- 3rd slowest character in the game

etc etc?

I'm sure there are other things you could put there... lol

- Huge blindspot below her when she's in the air.
- Laggy, easily gimpable recovery

....erm, back to Strengths:

...

- Not many people know how to play against her.

lol

edit: Oh and also her uair is the best uair evar

 

[KuroganeHammer]

uair is a beast. Well however it's done, I'll quite happily contribute as much as I can. So do we post info here or do we need someone to make a different thread to post info to?

 

[Kataefi]

Everything can be strategised here for now and then when we can focus on putting bits and pieces of the guide together.

If people come on the chat tonight i.e. when I'm on it lol which I don't know what time that is over there, then we can talk about this more in detail.

I looked at the yoshi boards and they've done a separate thread for each of his moves and how each move can be applied - uses, potential followups, setups, kill percents etc... I think this could be a good starting point.

edit:: ****it I keep forgetting to post in my unique colour

 

[Ochobobo]

I think one important thing to add to the strategies section is to make sure you're always below someone, since some of her most powerful moves are utilt, usmash, and uair. She should probably never be above someone unless there's a high chance you can land a sweetspotted dair spike. Then we could have a list of characters' recoveries that are easily spiked, like Fox's up B, ROB's up B, Link's up B, and Snake's up B (if he's an idiot, since he has better options)

We could also take some info from DarkMusician's feedback thread

 

[KayLo!]

2) Kaylo's format looks really good. I also love what the marios are doing as well, maybe we can come up with a hybrid of some sort between those 2 different styles?

Yeah, we wrote ours together in the Pika Back Room..... probably not gonna work for the Zeldas. x.o Once someone steps forward to offer to lead things (someone *coughDARKMUSICIANcough* once expressed interest in doing something like this to me.....), I think a system similar to what the Marios have could easily work.

I'd be happy to do it if absolutely no one else is willing, but I think a tournament-level Zelda main would be best. I'm calling out DM and Sniperworm -- yeah, I said it!

(Or MrEh could write it, lolol.)

If people come on the chat tonight i.e. when I'm on it lol which I don't know what time that is over there, then we can talk about this more in detail.

I think you're five hours ahead of me if what Bobby told me is right. I'll try to guess when you'll be on and be there, lol.

I looked at the yoshi boards and they've done a separate thread for each of his moves and how each move can be applied - uses, potential followups, setups, kill percents etc... I think this could be a good starting point.

Dude, you definitely read my mind. I was going to do more frame testing and start an In-Depth Move Analysis thread here...... @.@ I also wanna do it for the Pika boards eventually.

Didn't get it from the Yoshis, though. I forget where I got the idea from.

edit:: ****it I keep forgetting to post in my unique colour

Just wait until you accidentally post in white and feel naked when you see it.

 

[Kataefi]

This is all starting to look reeeeally promising!

Kaylo can I entrust you to run all the moveset and in depth analysis... do it however you want, you can make threads on each move or you can do them all together. And the moveset pictures better be amazing...

Spoiler

I'm expecting zelda in all her sassy seductive glory in a sparkly ballroom dress LOL /joke

Now we call out to our tournament zeldas and await their call. *waits*

/tumbleweed

 

[SinkingHigher]

We must awaken the sages!

 

[GodAtHand]

I'm a tournament ZELDA!

*Falls Asleep*

But really if no one volunteers in like a week or two I will attempt this. I play differently from DarkM though and I don't want any guff about that >.<

 

[KayLo!]

Now we call out to our tournament zeldas and await their call. *waits*

/tumbleweed

I lol'd.

I'll get started on the moveset stuff. You can count on meeee~

I play differently from DarkM though and I don't want any guff about that >.<

NO! You play like DM or YOU DON'T PLAY AT ALL.

 

[GodAtHand]

*Watches DarkM's videos again with small Zelda notepad and Tingle Pen*

 

[SinkingHigher]

DM like everyone has his pros and cons.

Watch how he predicts your moves and spaces himself accordingly. If you so much as accidently tap down left instead of left, he'll be on your case with a Snake F-smash up your ***.

Imo, that's his thing. I've said it time and time again, DM reads you like a children's book.

 

[gm jack]

Imo, that's his thing. I've said it time and time again, DM reads you like a children's book.

I'm not experienced, so I can't say for myself, but how good is Zelda's baiting game? Zelda has some quick and powerful moves, and I guess that if we can bait certain responses (like the air dodge baiting we all love) we may be able to do better in certain match ups.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I'd say her baiting game is quite good. Possibly one of the better ones in the game. By no means the BEST one, but a good one nonetheless.

NL throwing off stage can lead into Usmash kills.
Din can pop people up into a lightning kick (See NinjaLink videos)
Of course u-throw then the air dodge bait > uair
Likewise, since most Zeldas seem to involuntarily spaz out some Dins when the opponent flies off stage, you can send out a long one then immediately detonate the next one. This will garner an air-dodge which you can follow with lightning kick or u-air.

If they're too close to the ground you can still punish with u-tilt or Usmash.

Shes a pretty floaty character for someone of her weight, so latching on to people as they fall makes it easier to punish airdodge.

Zelda's actual baiting moves are not that good. All you've really got to use is Din and the occasional short hop by itself, but what she has is enough to get her by, and her options for the KO move are all just dandy.

 

[-Mars-]

I think one of the things about Zelda is it's really not wise to spotdodge against her due to her multi hits. A lot of times this works in your favor and it makes her terrible grab game all of a sudden pretty decent. Really opponents can't afford to always guess whether or not your using an fsmash or an usmash.......so must of the time your going to be seeing opponents shielding vs. you.

This also allows her to do a lot of little crossup tricks and whatnot which can lead into dtilts and such. Fsmash is pretty safe on block in general, and if your opponent has a habit of trying to spotdodge your fsmash.......charging just a little works wonders. In fact charging fsmashes in general with Zelda is very useful due to the low ending lag on the move.....fsmash is sort of a baiting move because if you whiff a lot of the time you can catch opponents trying to punish you with a quick usmash or dsmash.

Edit: Also,I know i'm not the most informed person about Zelda, but if DM or Sniperworm don't want to do a guide I would be willing to(of course with a ton of contributions from other players). I'm pretty competent in sentence and paragraph structure and all that, but i'm horrible with formatting. So I could write the guide and then send it to someone to format it for me?

 

[KayLo!]

Zelda's actual baiting moves are not that good. All you've really got to use is Din and the occasional short hop by itself, but what she has is enough to get her by, and her options for the KO move are all just dandy.

Imo, what you're actually saying is that Zelda's baiting game isn't good but her punishing game is. Those are two separate things, but they do work together.... ideally, a good baiting move should set up for a good punishing one.

That being said, I don't think Zelda has a good baiting game. For me, what mainly defines a good baiting move is:

a) whether it's safe on block/unsuccessful bait,
b) how it fits into the regular flow of my character's gameplay (obvious baits are obvious),
c) how much my character has to commit to using it (somewhat related to amount of cooldown lag), and
d) what variety of options I have out of it on a successful bait.

With a baiting move, you're not actually aiming to hit; you're aiming for a punishable reaction, but since some players will be smarter than that, you're always at risk for getting "figured out." Good baiting moves won't compromise you in the event that this happens..... at worst, they won't change the momentum in one player's favor or the other, because you'll be relatively safe even if they don't fall for it.

For Zelda, nearly all of her moves take a lot of commitment to use. This is mainly due to her lack of an aerial game, which means she can't use her aerial momentum to move back and forth while she performs a move (see: Wario)..... she's usually on the ground, stuck in one spot during the entire move + its cooldown frames. So, with ground moves, I'm sure you see the problem there.

All of her aerial baiting options are relatively poor, because they're not safe on block, they have no beneficial properties (a.k.a. shieldpoking abilities), and Zelda's options out of them aren't too stellar due to her poor running speed. Even if she does bait something, half the time she's just too far away and too slow to get there in time to punish (depending on the other character); if she's within a range where she can punish, she's usually at a high risk of getting hit first since other characters are generally considerably faster than her.

I agree with Sinking on what her few good baiting moves are, plus two more:

- Din's
- Short Hopping
- Whiffed Fsmashes (woah, looking down before I post this, I actually agreed with marsulas for once)
- Walking

Din's and short hopping do wonders for baiting airdodges out of people (and Zelda loooooves airdodges). Fsmash has pretty low cooldown, and since people often overestimate how slow Zelda is, you can whiff an fsmash at mid-range and dtilt as they run in to punish you. Similarly, simply walking away will often bait people into chasing you.

The problem is that baiting airdodges requires your opponent to be above you, where most people know not to go vs. Zelda; on top of that, she doesn't have any reliable ways of getting people into the air aside from uthrow, which can be hard to land. (EDIT: I forgot usmash, so I guess that makes the sentence before this one a little less true, but I still say she doesn't have reliable ways of getting people airborne.... usmash is pretty slow and easy to see coming unless you dash-cancel into it.) Fsmashes and walking work, but they're usually very quickly figured out.... and if your opponent has a spammable projectile, they pretty much make these methods useless since they'll never have to chase after you.

I'm not saying her baiting game is the worst, but I wouldn't say it's good. Pretty average compared to what most characters have.

Now, her punishing game, on the other hand..... it *****, if anybody wants to talk about that.

 

[Virgilijus]

Many <3's to KayLo.

 

[KayLo!]

Many <3's to KayLo.

<3 Virg, I didn't know you felt that way..... *blush!*

Spoiler

Virg is a pimp.

 

[Kataefi]

Many <3s to kaylo indeed.

Spoiler

and of course myself

If punishment is her best attribute we need to get to the crux of that and identify everything we can punish. Imo, (and I was discussing this with kaylo on the chat), we need to come up with ways we can punish attacks on our shield - what can bair OoS really do to whiffed attacks? Or dash attack OoS to cover range as Villi once mentioned etc etc etc...

I also like the concept of SDIing moves into a sweetspot. If there is a way to SDI multi-hit moves into sweetspots then we limit said moves on us because they can't risk dying. I think this another cool thing to look into.

I think din's needs a good look into as well. I really don't care if it's **** lol, I care that one hit can potentially do 16% percent damage, and that a tiny charge makes its damage go from 8% on burst to 11% which is a big priority and area difference from <10 to >10. If you time it, you can hit people out of aerials when it hits before or after a hitbox, so that's certainly something we could focus on as a 'side project' or whatever.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Many <3s to kaylo indeed.

Spoiler

and of course myself

If punishment is her best attribute we need to get to the crux of that and identify everything we can punish. Imo, (and I was discussing this with kaylo on the chat), we need to come up with ways we can punish attacks on our shield - what can bair OoS really do to whiffed attacks? Or dash attack OoS to cover range as Villi once mentioned etc etc etc...

I also like the concept of SDIing moves into a sweetspot. If there is a way to SDI multi-hit moves into sweetspots then we limit said moves on us because they can't risk dying. I think this another cool thing to look into.

I think din's needs a good look into as well. I really don't care if it's **** lol, I care that one hit can potentially do 16% percent damage, and that a tiny charge makes its damage go from 8% on burst to 11% which is a big priority and area difference from <10 to >10. If you time it, you can hit people out of aerials when it hits before or after a hitbox, so that's certainly something we could focus on as a 'side project' or whatever.

That sounds really good.

 

[Virgilijus]

it might help if some one makes a post compiling who has signed up to do what so it can be easier for me to know whom to help.

 

[KayLo!]

@Kataefi: Those ideas all sound good!

it might help if some one makes a post compiling who has signed up to do what so it can be easier for me to know whom to help.

Trufax. First we need someone to step up and offer to lead this thing. Preferably someone who actually wants to do it, because it'll be a considerable amount of work (nothing crazy, but I'm assuming we want this to be good).

Anybody???

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

question:
are we going to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that sheik does not exist, or are we going to incorperate sheik whenever it would be fitting to do so.

Obviously, the sheiks have a board too, so things like moveset would be redundant to write in both places (though they should clearly be linked at the very least.) But there will likely be times when you'll need to aknowledge that many, if not most zelda users also use sheik, so we can't act like they are discrete characters when they are so plainly linked.