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Geno's Bizarre Adventure part 2: Stardust Crusaders (Geno Support Thread #2)

Icewolff92

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
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As yes, as no other gaming genre exists in Japan but JRPG. Japan can't make anything but JRPGs. Mario, Kirby, Metroid, Splatoon, Sonic, Monkey Ball etc all JRPGs.
It is still one (if not the) biggest genre in Japan but I get what you're saying.

Nintendo literally came out to investors saying a Switch Pro doesn't exist. Also why would Nintendo and Sakurai make a Smash for a Pro if games still have to work on the OG switch. The next smash will on the switch SUCCESSOR, not an upgrade that doesn't exist. Also you don't how expensive licensing was just make this game happen. Sakurai said himself it will never happen again to how hard it easy it is. This isn't just wishful thinking, this is you just lying to yourself believing anything you made up in your head. None of that is realism in the slightest. There is no more Smash this cycle. its done.
For once, we at least agree on something

Also to answer the last question, Because that's all they have to show. Imagine if they gave new modes the same treatment. You guys say up and down that "Smash is nothing without roster" yet why is Subspace or even Smash Run still remembered fondly to this day. I dislike the modes myself but there is a reason they are held to such high regard.
And you have still not answered my question about if the rooster isn´t a big deal for the fanbase, then why was everyone is here thing such a huge deal? Also, they made a big deal about World of Light, and look how that ended up. The only reason why people are somewhat still talking about it is the Alpharads World of Light Nuzzlock challenge. Sure, we have Little Z and Alphard doing wacky stages at times, but that isn´t exactly something that is "the talk of the town" either. It's the entire roster. I dare argue that the upload replay parts is a bigger deal than WOL and Stage Builder because people want to see either "meme" videos or how people maybe uploaded an example of a combo they managed to find.

So I´m sorry, but even if they would make a big deal out of some other moods when the push comes to show the selling point is (and has always been) the rooster. If not, then why was it a big deal when Snake and Sonic got reveal and Brawl? If it's not, then why was it a big deal when Cloud got announced for Smash Wiiu/3DS? Or like I said previously... if the rooster isn´t a big deal.. then why did people go ape**** when everyone was back?

Ps... have you thought about that maybe people have the Subspace and Smash Run in such high regard only because of nostalgia? I mean, they aren't bad modes, but the only ones that are playing Smash WiiU/3DS and Brawl are the modding scenes with stuff like P+.

also here is the trailer.
That isn´t a trailer. That's a fan-made video (the game came out in January of 2008, that video was uploaded in March of 2008)
 
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Shroob

Sup?
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Yeah, the problem is those arguments on bad event that happen in FICTION. Ult happens in real life. Difference.



also here is the trailer.
"In fiction"


No?

Did you not live through the early 2000's where every time a mass shooting by a teenager happened, that the media blamed violent video games?



Also, that trailer is fan made. It's using music by E.S.Posthumous, here's the YouTube link

 

Dinoman96

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
2,840
Exactly, this "season" when looking overall at a morally, objective standpoint wasn't good. It's really weird when people just cover the ears and blindly say "LALALALALA ALL IS GOOD" when really wasn't. Fortunately "Everyone is Here" will never happen again and it's a shame Geno will never be apart of it, the silver lining, with a much reduced roster (Mostly likely Brawl-sized) the community will shrink and we can return to the Glory Days of Melee and Brawl where rooting and supporting our favorite characters is fun and exciting again and not 'Tabuu' with hopefully with our puppet boi on the helm.
Even if "Everyone is here" doesn't happen again, I really, really doubt we're going back to around 30 characters, that'd be complete suicide for a series like Smash that sells itself on its cast.

I don't see a Smash game that doesn't have, at the very very least, 60 characters on its base roster.
 
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Icewolff92

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Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
2,618
Even if "Everyone is here" doesn't happen again, I really, really doubt we're going back to around 30 characters, that'd be complete suicide for a series like Smash that sells itself on its cast.

I don't see a Smash game that doesn't have, at the very very least, 60 characters on its base roster.
Even though I stand on firm ground on that the only way Smash can live on at this point is the ports of Ultimate. If they wanted a serious chance for a "reboot" to work, then they shouldn´t have done the second pass. Yes, it would have been a ****storm if they ended with Byleth... but let's think about it for a second..

Sakurai never ended on a high note in the previous games and that made it work to move forward. Now, we have a game that ended with Sora... arguably who the biggest deal they could ever do next to if they were insane enough to open the wormhole that is 4th party characters and included Son Goku. Sure, it would have been a big deal if let says Crash or Master Chief would have gotten in... but let's face it, those would be dwarfed compared to Sora.

If we didn¨t have that fighter's pass, then Nintendo and whoever would be next in line (or if Sakurai himself worked on it) would have some major cards they could pull for the next game. The only big cards they really have left realistically are Crash and Master Chief and those alone aren´t exactly enough to push a reboot. . Especially if you cut next to all 3rd parties which is probably those that are the highest chance of being cut (would Nintendo be stupid enough to do a reboot) Sure, Geno might be big within the Smash community depending on who you ask... but he is a nobody with the casual player base which is 99% of the ones buying the game
 
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ForsakenM

Smash Lord
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Sep 14, 2018
Messages
1,836
Got something for you N Nabbitfan730

What good are all these modes if nobody wants to play any of the characters?

You could bring back Smash Run and make it like Kirby Air Ride (which it kinda already was) and just make this huge map for people to compete for stat ups on a level we've never seen, but if nobody wanted to play the characters, nobody would play the modes.

It's just a basic fact that a game which has more than one selectable character to play as needs the majority of the option to be appealing. For some games, that gameplay over characters choices and visuals. For some, it's the characters. For Smash, it basically both.

Smash doesn't need all these modes, they are fun extras. The game is multiplayer-focused, so what most people will do is what Smash is for, which is beating up your friends with your favorite characters.

Anything else is just more options to play the same game that a lot of people never mess with. I've only played Smashdown a handful of times, and always by myself. I haven't touched WoL period, and I love story modes.

So yes, the characters matter more than any other features, although you will here complaints when basic features get removed. Just look at SFV.
 

Forthestarcapelad

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Joined
Nov 15, 2019
Messages
120
After playing Metroid Dread for a bit, what are people's thoughts of having Geno in a potential Metroidvania game?
Hmmmm... Imagining ff the top of my head...

Finding different upgraded/interchangeable parts for his arms like his actual equipment in Mario RPG,, maybe gaining different abilities from collecting the 7 stars (as I'd presume he'd be seeking those out again, guardian of star road and all) not unlike the star power moves in Paper Mario, more wacky and crazy looking enemies for bosses...

Even if it's not anything like my rusty conception of it, yeah. I'd be down. I think there'd be a lot of potential for it.
Instead of a whole planet to explore, you're just trying to find your way out of the forest maze again.
 

kiteinthesky

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Messages
856
Hmmmm... Imagining ff the top of my head...

Finding different upgraded/interchangeable parts for his arms like his actual equipment in Mario RPG,, maybe gaining different abilities from collecting the 7 stars (as I'd presume he'd be seeking those out again, guardian of star road and all) not unlike the star power moves in Paper Mario, more wacky and crazy looking enemies for bosses...

Even if it's not anything like my rusty conception of it, yeah. I'd be down. I think there'd be a lot of potential for it.
Instead of a whole planet to explore, you're just trying to find your way out of the forest maze again.
Given his role and the things he does in Super Mario RPG, it stands to reason that one of his tasks as a Star is to deal with the more... "difficult" wishes and situations that befall his society. Say a few Stars went down to a certain section of the planet (is the Mushroom Kingdom on an alternate Earth? What do they call that planet?) to grant important wishes, and did not return...

A headcanon I have had for a while is that the Geno doll itself is a doll of a character from a popular in-universe franchise that is a Megaman/Astro Boy expy. So it would make sense if the Metroidvania was in a town or a geographic area where a lot of people with children lived, or that had a toy store or factory or something, where he would plausibly find upgrades for his doll form.

We could throw E. Gadd in too, because **** it, why not? Make his ass build some upgrades for our starboy.

Having Geno rescue Stars or people would be a nice change of pace from the typical "rescue the Princess" or "collect the MacGuffins" plots Mario games fall into way too woefully often. Hell, depending on the writing, you could make it a fairly dark game if you wanted to, too.

Can... can I steal this idea? Because a Geno Metroidvania actually sounds really awesome.
 

SSGuy

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There's a mod called Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Championship Edition that not only changes up characters similar to a mod like Project M did, but also added Giga Bowser and Akuma as full playable characters with their own moves and animations (granted Giga Bowser's are obviously reused, but Akuma is from the ground up), with more seemingly on the way.

The day we see a full Geno moveset mod for Ultimate may come sooner than we think.
Do you have a link to this? It sounds really awesome! Do you also know if it has plans for originL characters (like maybe Geno?)
 

Forthestarcapelad

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Messages
120
Given his role and the things he does in Super Mario RPG, it stands to reason that one of his tasks as a Star is to deal with the more... "difficult" wishes and situations that befall his society. Say a few Stars went down to a certain section of the planet (is the Mushroom Kingdom on an alternate Earth? What do they call that planet?) to grant important wishes, and did not return...

A headcanon I have had for a while is that the Geno doll itself is a doll of a character from a popular in-universe franchise that is a Megaman/Astro Boy expy. So it would make sense if the Metroidvania was in a town or a geographic area where a lot of people with children lived, or that had a toy store or factory or something, where he would plausibly find upgrades for his doll form.

We could throw E. Gadd in too, because **** it, why not? Make his ass build some upgrades for our starboy.

Having Geno rescue Stars or people would be a nice change of pace from the typical "rescue the Princess" or "collect the MacGuffins" plots Mario games fall into way too woefully often. Hell, depending on the writing, you could make it a fairly dark game if you wanted to, too.

Can... can I steal this idea? Because a Geno Metroidvania actually sounds really awesome.
I'd seriously be down for this game. It only seems appropriate that the Mario character that sticks out as much as he does would have a game/plot that also differentiates from the norm.
 

MamaLuigi123456

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Do you have a link to this? It sounds really awesome! Do you also know if it has plans for originL characters (like maybe Geno?)
They had two directs, one for 2020 and this one from earlier this year. They're rather ameturish and honestly might be better to just skip through the commentary to get to the important stuff, but there's quite a bit to dig into here. Goes to show that Ultimate modding isn't quite as infant as we think; it's gone way farther than Smash 4 ever has at the very least.
 

Dorayaki

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Feb 3, 2019
Messages
375
at the very very least, 60 characters on its base roster.
Smash 4 base game had 51 fighters, and if Nintendo just don't do returnee in DLCs, they could had done 54 fighters. Not quite sure if Smash 6 will be able to do 60.

If Smash 6 has a reboot, I think it will at least introduce a new Mario series rep from the main cast. So Geno's chance depends on whether Square will still participate (very likely) and whether the game will offer another Mario slot like Smash 4 did.
 

Froggy

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Even though I stand on firm ground on that the only way Smash can live on at this point is the ports of Ultimate. If they wanted a serious chance for a "reboot" to work, then they shouldn´t have done the second pass. Yes, it would have been a ****storm if they ended with Byleth... but let's think about it for a second..

Sakurai never ended on a high note in the previous games and that made it work to move forward. Now, we have a game that ended with Sora... arguably who the biggest deal they could ever do next to if they were insane enough to open the wormhole that is 4th party characters and included Son Goku. Sure, it would have been a big deal if let says Crash or Master Chief would have gotten in... but let's face it, those would be dwarfed compared to Sora.

If we didn¨t have that fighter's pass, then Nintendo and whoever would be next in line (or if Sakurai himself worked on it) would have some major cards they could pull for the next game. The only big cards they really have left realistically are Crash and Master Chief and those alone aren´t exactly enough to push a reboot. . Especially if you cut next to all 3rd parties which is probably those that are the highest chance of being cut (would Nintendo be stupid enough to do a reboot) Sure, Geno might be big within the Smash community depending on who you ask... but he is a nobody with the casual player base which is 99% of the ones buying the game
You answered your own question in this post. How does Nintendo top smash ultimate? Its easy, break the video game only rule. People will ***** about Goku at first but in time will see it was the only way to keep the series going.
 

TriggerX

Smash Ace
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Messages
521
Even though I stand on firm ground on that the only way Smash can live on at this point is the ports of Ultimate. If they wanted a serious chance for a "reboot" to work, then they shouldn´t have done the second pass. Yes, it would have been a ****storm if they ended with Byleth... but let's think about it for a second..

Sakurai never ended on a high note in the previous games and that made it work to move forward. Now, we have a game that ended with Sora... arguably who the biggest deal they could ever do next to if they were insane enough to open the wormhole that is 4th party characters and included Son Goku. Sure, it would have been a big deal if let says Crash or Master Chief would have gotten in... but let's face it, those would be dwarfed compared to Sora.

If we didn¨t have that fighter's pass, then Nintendo and whoever would be next in line (or if Sakurai himself worked on it) would have some major cards they could pull for the next game. The only big cards they really have left realistically are Crash and Master Chief and those alone aren´t exactly enough to push a reboot. . Especially if you cut next to all 3rd parties which is probably those that are the highest chance of being cut (would Nintendo be stupid enough to do a reboot) Sure, Geno might be big within the Smash community depending on who you ask... but he is a nobody with the casual player base which is 99% of the ones buying the game
Well there are plenty of other characters out there. Besides I don't see the next smash game cutting too many characters honestly, maybe 5. Hard to tell who, but I doubt it will be the top 3 third party characters. Who knows how these contracts work for each specific character, but their could be clauses that specify their return in future ports or sequels. Not saying everyone will return, but I do think they will try and keep some of the most used third party characters on the roster. For example, I actually doubt Sora is going anywhere if he is popular among players. Nintendo seems to be keeping track of player data and it will most likely be used for future installments to help trim the roster down in general.

Smash Ultimate is very well polished, but it isnt a perfect game. Mainly Story mode and Online need work.
  • They can still add game play mechanics that would bring something new to the series like tag team combos. For example Mario riding yoshi, or Bowser throwing Mario like from SMRPG when your team colors match.
  • The story mode could offer a lot more, like a more interesting story and once again different gameplay mechanics that make you want to play single player over multiplayer. Im talking like a third person view type of world map where you can move around freely with characters. Maybe have it center around a custom character.
  • Bring back custom movesets for the roster. This way you could also turn the single player mode into an action rpg type mode. For example, give me a reason to buy these amiibos by having amiibo training affect story mode stats of my party members.
  • Online needs improving. Quality and Lobby could all be better
  • Mii Moveset could use more variety. As well as a more customizable mii/character system in general.
  • New modes in general are cool, but they have to be enjoyable to play. I wouldnt mind a mario party type game, that also mixed elements of sonic shuffle and smash together.
  • More Echoes. Less Echoes. There are still movesets that could be better than what they are. There are also characters that could have easily got the echo treatment.
  • More characters. Still plenty of them to rotate in.
  • Also did they take out the ability to catch items mid air when you dodge? (I actually liked this mechanic in Melee)
 
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Griselda

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2019
Messages
1,011
Well there are plenty of other characters out there. Besides I don't see the next smash game cutting too many characters honestly, maybe 5. Hard to tell who, but I doubt it will be the top 3 third party characters. Who knows how these contracts work for each specific character, but their could be clauses that specify their return in future ports or sequels. Not saying everyone will return, but I do think they will try and keep some of the most used third party characters on the roster. For example, I actually doubt Sora is going anywhere if he is popular among players. Nintendo seems to be keeping track of player data and it will most likely be used for future installments to help trim the roster down in general.

Smash Ultimate is very well polished, but it isnt a perfect game. Mainly Story mode and Online need work.
  • They can still add game play mechanics that would bring something new to the series like tag team combos. For example Mario riding yoshi, or Bowser throwing Mario like from SMRPG when your team colors match.
  • The story mode could offer a lot more, like a more interesting story and once again different gameplay mechanics that make you want to play single player over multiplayer. Im talking like a third person view type of world map where you can move around freely with characters. Maybe have it center around a custom character.
  • Bring back custom movesets for the roster. This way you could also turn the single player mode into an action rpg type mode. For example, give me a reason to buy these amiibos by having amiibo training affect story mode stats of my party members.
  • Online needs improving. Quality and Lobby could all be better
  • Mii Moveset could use more variety. As well as a more customizable mii/character system in general.
  • New modes in general are cool, but they have to be enjoyable to play. I wouldnt mind a mario party type game, that also mixed elements of sonic shuffle and smash together.
  • More Echoes. Less Echoes. There are still movesets that could be better than what they are. There are also characters that could have easily got the echo treatment.
  • More characters. Still plenty of them to rotate in.
  • Also did they take out the ability to catch items mid air when you dodge? (I actually liked this mechanic in Melee)
In the distant past when Melee came out and I played it like every day, I used to have dreams about unlocking a secret Mario Party-styled minigame mode, as well as some sort of story/adventure mode where I was playing as Fox in a heavily expanded Underground Maze, like a whole metroidvania type thing (curiously, this was before I'd ever touched the genre).

On the topic of Echo fighters in particular... Echo fighters are weird. Why are some practically alternate skins while some have actual move differences? Why is Dr. Mario not an Echo, but Chrom is? Why is Alph a Koopalings-styled skin? And that's not even getting into the lack of characters who you'd think would be obvious and logical choices for Echoes - Shadow/Sonic, Hilda/Zelda, Ms. Pac-Man/Pac-Man - but for whatever reason they aren't, even though it'd be a quick and easier way of representing more characters.
Sakurai has been pretty honest about preferring sheer numbers over anything else, and has all but stated that he thinks things like Mii costumes are just as good as the real thing when it comes to representation, so why not just take that extra half step to, like, slap a Proto Man skin on Mega Man and say, "Hey, look, it's Mega Man's brother" ?

..Why would he switch Zelda to an ALBW-inspired design but not even put Hilda as an alternate color?
 

White Frost

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In the distant past when Melee came out and I played it like every day, I used to have dreams about unlocking a secret Mario Party-styled minigame mode, as well as some sort of story/adventure mode where I was playing as Fox in a heavily expanded Underground Maze, like a whole metroidvania type thing (curiously, this was before I'd ever touched the genre).

On the topic of Echo fighters in particular... Echo fighters are weird. Why are some practically alternate skins while some have actual move differences? Why is Dr. Mario not an Echo, but Chrom is? Why is Alph a Koopalings-styled skin? And that's not even getting into the lack of characters who you'd think would be obvious and logical choices for Echoes - Shadow/Sonic, Hilda/Zelda, Ms. Pac-Man/Pac-Man - but for whatever reason they aren't, even though it'd be a quick and easier way of representing more characters.
Sakurai has been pretty honest about preferring sheer numbers over anything else, and has all but stated that he thinks things like Mii costumes are just as good as the real thing when it comes to representation, so why not just take that extra half step to, like, slap a Proto Man skin on Mega Man and say, "Hey, look, it's Mega Man's brother" ?

..Why would he switch Zelda to an ALBW-inspired design but not even put Hilda as an alternate color?
Dr. Mario was already a clone in Melee, so it's likely they just kept his original status compared to the other two, who were specific to Smash 4 only. They didn't have a unique veteran status at that point either.

That said, Alph isn't just the character. It's Pikmin & Alph as the full character. The Pikmin are a notable part of the moveset, and the US/UK versions give us a name that doesn't make it clear what Sakurai's point behind it is. So it could be that he had no ideas to feasibly make the Pikmin stand out at the same time or simply because Pikmin was no longer a highly active franchise during Ultimate's creation. Alph should've been one, though, with minor differences(even the proper taunts!) like Daisy, Richter, and Dark Samus are(Daisy has unique hurtboxes, Richter has a different holy water, and Dark Samus has only electricity for attacks).

Shadow and Ms. Pac-Man can at least be attributed to legal factors. Shadow may not have even been considered, for that matter. As for Ms. Pac-Man, she has some odd legal redtape where Namco-Bandai doesn't fully own her.

Hilda is strange, but keep in mind Zelda isn't ALBW only, she's ALTTP/ALBW. Hilda probably wasn't on his mind to begin with, seeing as how she wasn't even an alt. Albeit, she's known for having a staff too, so that might've been part of why.

Proto Man's shield may have mattered, to be fair. Since that does change up the model itself overall, so it can theoretically be a "different bodyshape". That kind of stuff is unclear overall.
 

Icewolff92

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
2,618
You answered your own question in this post. How does Nintendo top smash ultimate? Its easy, break the video game only rule. People will ***** about Goku at first but in time will see it was the only way to keep the series going.
And you know fully well that this is the only line that they won´t cross. If people think Sora was a legal nightmare, Sora is nothing compared to the likes of Goku and other Shonen characters. Heck, Capcom vs Tatsunoko was close to unable to leave the Japanese border because the licensing for manga and anime properties is on a whole another level when it comes to legality.

Smash Ultimate is very well polished, but it isnt a perfect game. Mainly Story mode and Online need work.
And like I stated many times before in this thread. The side mode is not the selling point of Smash Bros (never has, never will). It is the rooster that does. And like I also said before... while Master Chief and/or Crash could be a big deal.. they are nowhere close to Sora level.... and I say that as someone that is indifferent on all 3 (Although I will admitt that Crash would have given me a sour taste in my mouth to some extent due to whats going on over at AB)
 

TriggerX

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Nov 5, 2018
Messages
521
And you know fully well that this is the only line that they won´t cross. If people think Sora was a legal nightmare, Sora is nothing compared to the likes of Goku and other Shonen characters. Heck, Capcom vs Tatsunoko was close to unable to leave the Japanese border because the licensing for manga and anime properties is on a whole another level when it comes to legality.



And like I stated many times before in this thread. The side mode is not the selling point of Smash Bros (never has, never will). It is the rooster that does. And like I also said before... while Master Chief and/or Crash could be a big deal.. they are nowhere close to Sora level.... and I say that as someone that is indifferent on all 3 (Although I will admitt that Crash would have given me a sour taste in my mouth to some extent due to whats going on over at AB)
Lol you’re making my point though.
It is not a selling point because they aren’t that great, at least in my opinion. That doesn’t mean it can’t be.
Assuming that it “never will” is the issue. The next game isn’t constrained by the previous in regards to what improvements we could potentially see.
If you want to talk about how to make smash a better game, then all aspects of it need to be improved.

I completely agree that the roster does indeed sell the game at this point. Not denying that. However in order to make the game itself better additional modes need to be worth playing as well. Story mode for example simply needs to offer an experience that multiplayer can’t. Unfortunately story mode has never been executed in a successful way
 

Geno Boost

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Star Hill. Why do you ask?
Well there are plenty of other characters out there. Besides I don't see the next smash game cutting too many characters honestly, maybe 5. Hard to tell who, but I doubt it will be the top 3 third party characters. Who knows how these contracts work for each specific character, but their could be clauses that specify their return in future ports or sequels. Not saying everyone will return, but I do think they will try and keep some of the most used third party characters on the roster. For example, I actually doubt Sora is going anywhere if he is popular among players. Nintendo seems to be keeping track of player data and it will most likely be used for future installments to help trim the roster down in general.

Smash Ultimate is very well polished, but it isnt a perfect game. Mainly Story mode and Online need work.
  • They can still add game play mechanics that would bring something new to the series like tag team combos. For example Mario riding yoshi, or Bowser throwing Mario like from SMRPG when your team colors match.
  • The story mode could offer a lot more, like a more interesting story and once again different gameplay mechanics that make you want to play single player over multiplayer. Im talking like a third person view type of world map where you can move around freely with characters. Maybe have it center around a custom character.
  • Bring back custom movesets for the roster. This way you could also turn the single player mode into an action rpg type mode. For example, give me a reason to buy these amiibos by having amiibo training affect story mode stats of my party members.
  • Online needs improving. Quality and Lobby could all be better
  • Mii Moveset could use more variety. As well as a more customizable mii/character system in general.
  • New modes in general are cool, but they have to be enjoyable to play. I wouldnt mind a mario party type game, that also mixed elements of sonic shuffle and smash together.
  • More Echoes. Less Echoes. There are still movesets that could be better than what they are. There are also characters that could have easily got the echo treatment.
  • More characters. Still plenty of them to rotate in.
  • Also did they take out the ability to catch items mid air when you dodge? (I actually liked this mechanic in Melee)
I will add few more to this
-10 or 12 players in a match would be epic if the console is capable of handling it especially with all being :ulticeclimbers:
-There should be online mode for choosing like 3 or 5 characters to use in a match and would switch characters in each stock you lose there is one in offline mode but I think online needs it.
-more alt skins which would bring more characters to smash for example :ulthero3::ultsimon::ultrichter::ultsteve::ultolimar: could be used to bring more characters from their series by alt skins
-break the target should come back
 
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Icewolff92

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
2,618
Lol you’re making my point though.
It is not a selling point because they aren’t that great, at least in my opinion. That doesn’t mean it can’t be.
Assuming that it “never will” is the issue. The next game isn’t constrained by the previous in regards to what improvements we could potentially see.
If you want to talk about how to make smash a better game, then all aspects of it need to be improved.

I completely agree that the roster does indeed sell the game at this point. Not denying that. However in order to make the game itself better additional modes need to be worth playing as well. Story mode for example simply needs to offer an experience that multiplayer can’t. Unfortunately story mode has never been executed in a successful way
You are missing my point. I´m not saying that there can´t be better side modes. If anything, I agree. However, if the casual players would have to choose between Ultimates rooster or upgraded sections of sidemodes but with a severe amount of cuts (especially when it comes to 3rd party) at least at minimum 98% (if being generous towards the side that would be drawn to a "reboot" ) of the player base would choose to keep the Ultimate rooster/upgraded one. That's what I mean with a new Smash game unless it's a Super Smash Bros Ultimate Deluxe is pointless at this point to do. And I stand by this hill that if they want to make another game, they shouldn´t have done the second fighters pass. Sure the likes of Master Chief or Crash could be a popular deal... but they wouldn´t even come close to the reaction and drawing power that Sora got... and I say this as someone that is indifferent to all 3.
 
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EricTheGamerman

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
3,191
Turns out we agree on some things, but we have different perspectives. One of us thinks Ultimate came out phenomenal all things considered and they made amazing picks the is the best Smash as ever been despite all it's flaws, and the other is Nabbitfan730.

Jokes aside, people often mistake pessimism for realism. Short and sweet, lots of people act like taking a negative view on situations in life, even when evidence suggests either a more neutral or more positive stance should be taken, is realism when in fact it is pessimism.

Acting like Geno's chances for Ultimate were dead for any other reason other than what we learned in Sora's presentation is pessimism, nothing else held him back like it did with other characters, not even his costume since it was recycled assets. Acting like his chances were never good was pessimism. Realism is what I often said when I mentioned that bigger names like Sora and Sephiroth made sense as competition and, way back when, said this about Cloud and Dragon Quest. Realism is saying that you want Geno and love him, but know that all those above names are likely to come to Smash before him.

Misplaced optimism would be those who said Sora was never competition for Geno because Disney owned Sora even though Sora is a Square-designed character, or how I thought Sephiroth wouldn't get in because Cloud represented all of Final Fantasy without realizing that he follows him where ever he goes and that Cloud had lackluster content, or when I mentioned that Geno could come with lots of content and that got mocked by I think GameFAQs or whatever.

Pessimism is saying that there will be no more Smash within the Switch's lifecycle, that it will never happen. Realism is knowing that a Switch Pro is still very likely and that porting Ultimate with extra content and another round or two of DLC would sell that console well, and how Sakurai wouldn't say no to the opportunity and how Furakawa would give him more creative freedom over who gets in so there will likely be even more fan requests, but knowing also that it might not happen even with these things. Blind optimism is '**** all that, Ultimate Deluxe for the Switch Pro LETZ GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO~!' right here and now, and I gotta say I'm okay with either realism or the blind optimism right now.
I mean, the reality is Harada said that the development team at Bandai Namco is going back to Tekken Project after a short break, so there's literally no development team for any future content right now. Smash Ultimate is no longer being worked on by the development team and they are literally moving to an entirely different developmental focus back at Bandai Namco. There's not really any more definitive of a reality than that. Could they technically reform the team? Of course, but it's the same as literally any hypothetical of "Can X do Y". It's not really speculation or optimism, it's literally just dreaming of a reality you want at that point.

If they would actually bother to put a decent story in the next Smash, I'll be all about it. I like story-driven fighting games. Something like Subspace Emissary with more dialogue and plot goodness would be fantastic.
The thing is you can't really do a story driven Subspace with a ton of fighters and an ambitious game. You're developing an entirely unique game on top of your primary fighting game with how Subspace went, and I think both it and Brawl suffered from a lack of resources due to its existence. And that was with 39 characters, 3 of whom basically did not appear in it, and Sonic only appeared at the very end. Trying to apply that to an 89 character roster is basically impossible. Plus we don't wanna see repeats of Brawl's atrocious balance, gameplay decisions, and issues with being able to finish other fighters like the Forbidden Seven.

I'm all for it, but Subspace should honestly be its own game made independently of the primary Smash games so that way both can get the resources and thus the polish they deserve.
 

Nabbitfan730

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 15, 2020
Messages
57
I mean, the reality is Harada said that the development team at Bandai Namco is going back to Tekken Project after a short break, so there's literally no development team for any future content right now. Smash Ultimate is no longer being worked on by the development team and they are literally moving to an entirely different developmental focus back at Bandai Namco. There's not really any more definitive of a reality than that. Could they technically reform the team? Of course, but it's the same as literally any hypothetical of "Can X do Y". It's not really speculation or optimism, it's literally just dreaming of a reality you want at that point.

The thing is you can't really do a story driven Subspace with a ton of fighters and an ambitious game. You're developing an entirely unique game on top of your primary fighting game with how Subspace went, and I think both it and Brawl suffered from a lack of resources due to its existence. And that was with 39 characters, 3 of whom basically did not appear in it, and Sonic only appeared at the very end. Trying to apply that to an 89 character roster is basically impossible. Plus we don't wanna see repeats of Brawl's atrocious balance, gameplay decisions, and issues with being able to finish other fighters like the Forbidden Seven.

I'm all for it, but Subspace should honestly be its own game made independently of the primary Smash games so that way both can get the resources and thus the polish they deserve.
Idk why people are clamoring for Subspace without realising the amount the resources and time it would need to take for it to be done especially with Everyone is Here and the disastrous 2 year development. Not to mention it wasn't even a good mode outside cutscenes. Smash 6 will have much less characters than Ult which might make SE-sequel but honestly, at the point, A Smash Bros Movie would be better suited than a game.

Also thanks for shutting down that optimism nonsense. Why would Smash Ult continue when Nintendo, Sakurai and Trademarks say otherwise? Nothing more than delusional thoughts away from reality.

And you have still not answered my question about if the rooster isn´t a big deal for the fanbase, then why was everyone is here thing such a huge deal? Also, they made a big deal about World of Light, and look how that ended up. The only reason why people are somewhat still talking about it is the Alpharads World of Light Nuzzlock challenge. Sure, we have Little Z and Alphard doing wacky stages at times, but that isn´t exactly something that is "the talk of the town" either. It's the entire roster. I dare argue that the upload replay parts is a bigger deal than WOL and Stage Builder because people want to see either "meme" videos or how people maybe uploaded an example of a combo they managed to find.

So I´m sorry, but even if they would make a big deal out of some other moods when the push comes to show the selling point is (and has always been) the rooster. If not, then why was it a big deal when Snake and Sonic got reveal and Brawl? If it's not, then why was it a big deal when Cloud got announced for Smash Wiiu/3DS? Or like I said previously... if the rooster isn´t a big deal.. then why did people go ape**** when everyone was back?

Ps... have you thought about that maybe people have the Subspace and Smash Run in such high regard only because of nostalgia? I mean, they aren't bad modes, but the only ones that are playing Smash WiiU/3DS and Brawl are the modding scenes with stuff like P+.
However, The fact that people still talk about WoL even as Nuzlocke challenge shows that it's still a big deal. It's doesn't have to be talk of the town every day for it be there. Yeah, the roster is great but you need new, unique ways to use said characters otherwise the overall experience get stale. Stage Builder gets talked about and gets recognition. Go to it yourself and see the amount of stages that are still be created. That's a big deal. Nostalgia is poor argument as there has be reason it was created in the first place. Subspace isn't a good mode(The Adventure mode by far) but there is a certain pleasure to see unlikely teamups of our favourite characters like Samus and Pikachu, Meta Knight and FE Boys, Mario and Pit all coming together to defeat the common evil and the fun interactions that come from it which not only makes it even more special and memorable but is also reason why Smash as a crossover is really popular concept. Even Smash Run is looking at a unique way to play Smash. Having that + Player Interaction + Online would be a great DLC for Ultimate to keep things fresh but it never.

Sure those modes have problems but single-player shouldn't be abandoned entirely.

Watch these and the comments and see how a big deal single player is.



Got something for you N Nabbitfan730

What good are all these modes if nobody wants to play any of the characters?

Smash doesn't need all these modes, they are fun extras. The game is multiplayer-focused, so what most people will do is what Smash is for, which is beating up your friends with your favorite characters.

Anything else is just more options to play the same game that a lot of people never mess with. I've only played Smashdown a handful of times, and always by myself. I haven't touched WoL period, and I love story modes.
Like I said before characters are fundamental but it's also fundamental to having multiple ways to use them to keep gameplay fresh. Also what if my friends aren't available to play with me? Then what happens?

Also, speak for yourself for the last part. I loved WoL and on my second playthrough on hard mode. Going to do a Sora-Run after for the third time when comes out. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.

Lol you’re making my point though.
It is not a selling point because they aren’t that great, at least in my opinion. That doesn’t mean it can’t be.
Assuming that it “never will” is the issue. The next game isn’t constrained by the previous in regards to what improvements we could potentially see.
If you want to talk about how to make smash a better game, then all aspects of it need to be improved.

I completely agree that the roster does indeed sell the game at this point. Not denying that. However in order to make the game itself better additional modes need to be worth playing as well. Story mode for example simply needs to offer an experience that multiplayer can’t. Unfortunately story mode has never been executed in a successful way
'Unfortunately story mode has never been executed in a successful way" World of Light would disagree to that. Well it's more of an Adventure Mode than Story so you might be right. Outside cutscenes, SE wasn't good.

However I agree with everything else especially this part "Completely agree that the roster does indeed sell the game at this point. Not denying that. However in order to make the game itself better additional modes need to be worth playing as well. Story mode for example simply needs to offer an experience that multiplayer can’t" ForsakenM ForsakenM Icewolff92 Icewolff92 Take STRONG note of this one.
 

TriggerX

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
521
You are missing my point. I´m not saying that there can´t be better side modes. If anything, I agree. However, if the casual players would have to choose between Ultimates rooster or upgraded sections of sidemodes but with a severe amount of cuts (especially when it comes to 3rd party) at least at minimum 98% (if being generous towards the side that would be drawn to a "reboot" ) of the player base would choose to keep the Ultimate rooster/upgraded one. That's what I mean with a new Smash game unless it's a Super Smash Bros Ultimate Deluxe is pointless at this point to do. And I stand by this hill that if they want to make another game, they shouldn´t have done the second fighters pass. Sure the likes of Master Chief or Crash could be a popular deal... but they wouldn´t even come close to the reaction and drawing power that Sora got... and I say this as someone that is indifferent to all 3.
Sure, even I would take more characters over more modes. Lol only cuz Nintendo hasn’t given me hope that they can make other modes as fun.
However even I realize the roster size isn’t going to necessarily mean a better selling game. I mean look at marvel vs capcom. Dramatically reduces the roster by almost half in its third iteration . Still out sells it’s predecessor.
Just having Different characters as well becomes a selling point. Lol this entire thread would buy it if it meant Geno was in it.

Have to disagree about Master Chief though. He does have as much pull as Sora. He also draws a completely new audience into smash that most characters haven’t touched yet.

Realistically though, I doubt they’ll cut a character like Sora. Nintendo collects a lot of data, assuming Sora becomes one of the most highly used characters in the series then I have my doubts they will axe him.
That goes for any third party / first party character that is highly used.


I’d be curious what the actual numbers look like in terms of character usage. I imagine some of the konami characters and Steve will get cut. I also get the suspicion megaman would be cut too, only cuz he is becoming more irrelevant over time. Capcom’s fault.

My theory for the next game in the series is that more unpopular or less used third party characters get cut. First party characters will get cut if the development runs into time constraints. I doubt the roster size will be reduced dramatically, but you may see characters switched out.
 

Shroob

Sup?
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Messages
33,895
Location
Washington
Sure, even I would take more characters over more modes. Lol only cuz Nintendo hasn’t given me hope that they can make other modes as fun.
However even I realize the roster size isn’t going to necessarily mean a better selling game. I mean look at marvel vs capcom. Dramatically reduces the roster by almost half in its third iteration . Still out sells it’s predecessor.
Is that really a surprise?


MvsC2 came out in 2000, while the sequel came out in 2011. One game was a fan favorite in the FGC that you could only really play competitively in person, the other had online, and basically took the former's spot at EVO.
 
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Griselda

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2019
Messages
1,011
I think many people's problem with a Subspace 2 is that they're assuming that every character in the game would have to be playable (which would force certain gameplay decisions) or have a story/cutscene presence, when that shouldn't necessarily be the case. ..In fact, that wasn't even the case in Brawl itself - regardless of whether or not it was because of a lack of development time or other reasons, a handful of characters have no presence in the campaign and are only unlocked through a random icon on the world map, such as Toon Link. Sonic's last-minute 'save everyone from the villain' twist was because of development reasons as far as I know, but it's still the truth that he had basically no relevance for the whole story, and it was fine despite that.

Ultimate in particular already had a ton of characters missing in the small amount of WoL cutscenes, particularly the intro - you're just left to assume that they got Galeem'd like everyone else, but you don't see it. You could very easily tell a story with just the Original 12, if you wanted to. Or do it like Warriors Orochi 4, where you can recruit tons of people in extra missions, but after their recruitment scenes they just don't come up again. WO4 also has very few full CG cutscenes and prefers using a more visual novel-styled approach, which cuts down on costs and time even more.

...And if the problem is that people would be disappointed that everyone wasn't involved in the game, then that's just kinda how any game is that has more party members than can be active at a time.
 

Icewolff92

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
2,618
However I agree with everything else especially this part "Completely agree that the roster does indeed sell the game at this point. Not denying that. However in order to make the game itself better additional modes need to be worth playing as well. Story mode for example simply needs to offer an experience that multiplayer can’t" ForsakenM ForsakenM
Maybe I have misunderstood you (and if so I apologize)... but it has felt like you have said that better side mode = selling point that wins over the cut rooster. Like I said to T TriggerX , I agree that Ultimate can have a much better side mode. But if the general fanbase had to choose between an updated roster with no cuts or a cut rooster with better side content, the wast majority will always choose the former. That's my entire point.

ure, even I would take more characters over more modes. Lol only cuz Nintendo hasn’t given me hope that they can make other modes as fun.
However even I realize the roster size isn’t going to necessarily mean a better selling game. I mean look at marvel vs capcom. Dramatically reduces the roster by almost half in its third iteration . Still out sells it’s predecessor.
Here is the problem with that statement though. A) Marvel Vs Capcom hasn´t been given their own "Smash Ultimate" B) Marvel vs Capcoms fanbase is the hardcore FGC community that cares more about gameplay than the rooster, compared to Smash where the fanbase is all about the rooster.

Have to disagree about Master Chief though. He does have as much pull as Sora. He also draws a completely new audience into smash that most characters haven’t touched yet.
Master Chief only gets the FPS crowd.. Sora gets the Disney crowd... So no, Master Chief is not even close on the same level even if it would be big in it off itself. But sure, it would absolutely be a big deal of having Chief in... just not as big
 
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TriggerX

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
521
Maybe I have misunderstood you (and if so I apologize)... but it has felt like you have said that better side mode = selling point that wins over the cut rooster. Like I said to T TriggerX , I agree that Ultimate can have a much better side mode. But if the general fanbase had to choose between an updated roster with no cuts or a cut rooster with better side content, the wast majority will always choose the former. That's my entire point.



Here is the problem with that statement though. A) Marvel Vs Capcom hasn´t been given their own "Smash Ultimate" B) Marvel vs Capcoms fanbase is the hardcore FGC community that cares more about gameplay than the rooster, compared to Smash where the fanbase is all about the rooster.



Master Chief only gets the FPS crowd.. Sora gets the Disney crowd... So no, Master Chief is not even close on the same level even if it would be big in it off itself. But sure, it would absolutely be a big deal of having Chief in... just not as big
Nah no need to apologize, I always enjoy a good discussion regardless.


Idk what you mean by their “own smash ultimate”. I mean it’s just another game in the series at the end of the day. If we’re talking about just sheer roster size that mvc2 is their ultimate, and how 3 was received was the result.

It’s not really the fighting game community that’s going to push sales . Casual gamers don’t care about Evo and all that tournament crap. They just want a game that’s fun to play. Sure they are drawn in by a lot of the cameos / playable characters, but ultimately it’s word of mouth that confirms whether or not the game is good that gets sales numbers that high.

I’d definitely argue Halo is bigger. The halo series vs the Kh series is 80mil vs 30mil units sold respectively. More than double. Sora was definitely my most wanted, but Master Chief is the face of pretty much an entire console brand. Honestly I feel like I can guarantee more people know who Master Chief is than Sora.

Keep in mind Disney fans don’t necessarily know who Sora is, although the audiences do have overlap. Anybody who knows what an Xbox is probably has seen MC.
 

Icewolff92

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
2,618
Nah no need to apologize, I always enjoy a good discussion regardless.


Idk what you mean by their “own smash ultimate”. I mean it’s just another game in the series at the end of the day. If we’re talking about just sheer roster size that mvc2 is their ultimate, and how 3 was received was the result.

It’s not really the fighting game community that’s going to push sales . Casual gamers don’t care about Evo and all that tournament crap. They just want a game that’s fun to play. Sure they are drawn in by a lot of the cameos / playable characters, but ultimately it’s word of mouth that confirms whether or not the game is good that gets sales numbers that high.

I’d definitely argue Halo is bigger. The halo series vs the Kh series is 80mil vs 30mil units sold respectively. More than double. Sora was definitely my most wanted, but Master Chief is the face of pretty much an entire console brand. Honestly I feel like I can guarantee more people know who Master Chief is than Sora.

Keep in mind Disney fans don’t necessarily know who Sora is, although the audiences do have overlap. Anybody who knows what an Xbox is probably has seen MC.
What I mean by "own Smash Bros Ultimate", mean that they haven´t had their own "everyone is here moment"... but even if that's the cause, MVC is covering a different demographic than what Smash is doing (the hardcore FGC) who doesn´t care about a specific rooster as much. They care about gameplay. That's why (in my opinion at least), it doesn´t work to use a game like MVC as an argument of it would sell just fine if they just "rebooted" the rooster when the games have completely different audiences.

Sure, Halo might sell more in the grand schemes of things. But there are more casual Disney fans that are probably gonna buy a Nintendo Switch if they see Sora being in a Nintendo game, then a hardcore FPS gamer buying a Switch for Super Smash Brothers because Master Chief is in. Had Nintendo been one of the more powerful systems that had Halo for whatever reason, then that would have been a different story. There is a reason why people are calling it the system for JRPGs and Platformers (yes there are other genres like Metroidvanias and party games on their obviously but you get my point)... Nintendo Switch is not a good investment for someone that is a hardcore FPS person., Sure, the console has the likes of Apex, Fortnite, and Overwatch, but it runs like crap on Switch compared to other consoles. He wouldn't draw as many people as people think. Edit - Not to mention, Halo is a nobody in the east, were as Sora is popular world wide
 
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S1itchey

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
130
What I mean by "own Smash Bros Ultimate", mean that they haven´t had their own "everyone is here moment"... but even if that's the cause, MVC is covering a different demographic than what Smash is doing (the hardcore FGC) who doesn´t care about a specific rooster as much. They care about gameplay. That's why (in my opinion at least), it doesn´t work to use a game like MVC as an argument of it would sell just fine if they just "rebooted" the rooster when the games have completely different audiences.

Sure, Halo might sell more in the grand schemes of things. But there are more casual Disney fans that are probably gonna buy a Nintendo Switch if they see Sora being in a Nintendo game, then a hardcore FPS gamer buying a Switch for Super Smash Brothers because Master Chief is in. Had Nintendo been one of the more powerful systems that had Halo for whatever reason, then that would have been a different story. There is a reason why people are calling it the system for JRPGs and Platformers (yes there are other genres like Metroidvanias and party games on their obviously but you get my point)... Nintendo Switch is not a good investment for someone that is a hardcore FPS person., Sure, the console has the likes of Apex, Fortnite, and Overwatch, but it runs like crap on Switch compared to other consoles. He wouldn't draw as many people as people think. Edit - Not to mention, Halo is a nobody in the east, were as Sora is popular world wide
I'm honestly going to have to disagree on sora. I'm pretty sure the very large majority of disney fans don't care about kingdom hearts and have probably never even heard of sora. I doubt that any person who is a fan of Disney but has never played kingdom hearts cares that sora is in smash. Plus sora also has nothing Disney with him so if you really only care about the disney aspect your out of luck. Soras main appeal is to the people who are fans of kingdom hearts, not purely Disney.
 

Nabbitfan730

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 15, 2020
Messages
57
I think many people's problem with a Subspace 2 is that they're assuming that every character in the game would have to be playable (which would force certain gameplay decisions) or have a story/cutscene presence, when that shouldn't necessarily be the case. ..In fact, that wasn't even the case in Brawl itself - regardless of whether or not it was because of a lack of development time or other reasons, a handful of characters have no presence in the campaign and are only unlocked through a random icon on the world map, such as Toon Link. Sonic's last-minute 'save everyone from the villain' twist was because of development reasons as far as I know, but it's still the truth that he had basically no relevance for the whole story, and it was fine despite that.

Ultimate in particular already had a ton of characters missing in the small amount of WoL cutscenes, particularly the intro - you're just left to assume that they got Galeem'd like everyone else, but you don't see it. You could very easily tell a story with just the Original 12, if you wanted to. Or do it like Warriors Orochi 4, where you can recruit tons of people in extra missions, but after their recruitment scenes they just don't come up again. WO4 also has very few full CG cutscenes and prefers using a more visual novel-styled approach, which cuts down on costs and time even more.

...And if the problem is that people would be disappointed that everyone wasn't involved in the game, then that's just kinda how any game is that has more party members than can be active at a time.
World of Light did it best by making saving the characters apart of the adventure. If Subspace 2 has to happen, I don't think it would impossible to include all the characters in it especially when the next Smash game is having a much reduced roster and Brawl had development constraints.
 

Icewolff92

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
2,618
I'm honestly going to have to disagree on sora. I'm pretty sure the very large majority of disney fans don't care about kingdom hearts and have probably never even heard of sora. I doubt that any person who is a fan of Disney but has never played kingdom hearts cares that sora is in smash. Plus sora also has nothing Disney with him so if you really only care about the disney aspect your out of luck. Soras main appeal is to the people who are fans of kingdom hearts, not purely Disney.
Fair enough on that part, but it still doesn´t change the fact that Sora is popular worldwide, Halo is only popular in the west
 
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