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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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Datboigeno

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I don't understand how more people don't find Verge and Tansut incredibly suspicious and take everything they say with a grain of salt. Especially in light of the fact that Verge basically backpedaled around the world about Minecraft in Smash and was BTFO in the last big direct. Yet he's still 100% on Erdrick with no explanation as to why. Tansut was always a bit sketchy to me too so what people have brought up in the last couple of pages isn't surprising. Erdrick still really seems like intentional leakbait on Nintendo/SEs part to me. Especially in light of them sending out fake leaks. Erdrick could very well be revealed for SSBU but everything around his leak and the certainty of it all is really fishy to me.

Also this has absolutely no bearing on Geno's chances as DLC but I had an interview for a great job I really wanted yesterday and was listening to a metal version of Beware the Forest's Mushrooms (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blpl4swRxgQ) and the rock version of Banjo-Kazooie theme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0aWlKL2u4g ) among other things to get hyped beforehand and I just found out I got the job! Hooray employment :ness:
 

3BitSaurus

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If DLC was within the development plan, it could be possible that Geno was within the game's plan since it's inception but SE's deal for negotiating Cloud back in the base roster required twisting arms. Even with spirit and icon presented, it doesn't make sense why that is the only unique SE content to Smash Ultimate. Nothing else provided is new from them.
My guess is that Sakurai had the rights for Geno's use from 4 - at least to some extent. I think a costume/Spirit would be less costly than a full-fledged character and stage.

The thing with Cloud was probably because the deal had to be renegotiated from paid DLC to base game, which Squeenix doesn't seem to like. This is imo what makes a Square rep so likely for DLC - securing a slot in the FP for them might have been the "price" the team had to pay for keeping the rights to Cloud and Geno in base game. Plus whatever money the parties involved wanted upfront, of course.

That and, as said before, the rights for their older properties (mainly FF and DQ) are all over the place, with music, characters, art and such all under different names.
 

SSGuy

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Would it seem out of the realm of possibility that Geno could still have presence in the base game and still be the DLC pick? Or do you think having him present in the base game is a hard deconfirmation?
 

osby

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I'm not convinced that SE blackmailed Nintendo for giving them content and won't be until I see the proof for it. It just feels like a way for people to back their fan theories up.
 

3BitSaurus

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Would it seem out of the realm of possibility that Geno could still have presence in the base game and still be the DLC pick? Or do you think having him present in the base game is a hard deconfirmation?
Honestly, I couldn't say for sure... I'd love to see him in anyway, but for consistency's sake, I'm treating Geno's Spirit in a similar fashion to Rayman: since there is no actual information from Sakurai that Spirits deconfirm (all we can do is interpret that from other things he says), I wouldn't expect these characters, but I also don't completely... rule them out? As in, I would still be very pleasantly surprised, I'm just not putting any more eggs in that basket.

EDIT: It's not just Spirits, I also feel the same regarding a MH rep because of Rathalos.
 
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ForsakenM

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This doesn't outright disprove anything he says, just doesn't make him a rock solid source anymore imo.
Man, this is old news.

Seriously, every time I have posted about Tansut not being creditable, I mentioned how other big youtubers knew about Cloud before he leaked it the day of and hours before, and his claim of knowing months in advance but saying nothing to not ruin the hype vs just outright saying Erdrick is in makes everything he says shaky at best.

How did you guys not know about this?
 

Firox

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Considering everything, I honestly don't know how many big contenders from Square Enix we would have against a Dragon Quest character. With Geno as a Spirit and Sora basically being deconfirmed, I honestly don't see a huge amount of characters that could fill that space. Maybe Crono or a character from their new IPs, but I don't know.



I guess you could say it's a cheat sheet.
We also need to remember that having another SE rep is still just leaker hearsay. To my knowledge, we have no definitive evidence that confirms whether we'll even get another one, much less who.
 

ForsakenM

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I don't understand how more people don't find Verge and Tansut incredibly suspicious and take everything they say with a grain of salt. Especially in light of the fact that Verge basically backpedaled around the world about Minecraft in Smash and was BTFO in the last big direct. Yet he's still 100% on Erdrick with no explanation as to why. Tansut was always a bit sketchy to me too so what people have brought up in the last couple of pages isn't surprising. Erdrick still really seems like intentional leakbait on Nintendo/SEs part to me. Especially in light of them sending out fake leaks. Erdrick could very well be revealed for SSBU but everything around his leak and the certainty of it all is really fishy to me.

Also this has absolutely no bearing on Geno's chances as DLC but I had an interview for a great job I really wanted yesterday and was listening to a metal version of Beware the Forest's Mushrooms (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blpl4swRxgQ) and the rock version of Banjo-Kazooie theme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0aWlKL2u4g ) among other things to get hyped beforehand and I just found out I got the job! Hooray employment :ness:
Eeyup...that's going into my favorite music playlist...
 

SSGuy

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I'm not convinced that SE blackmailed Nintendo for giving them content and won't be until I see the proof for it. It just feels like a way for people to back their fan theories up.
I don't think anyone is claiming they are blackmailing them. But it is obvious they were the ones that were the most difficult to negotiate with.
 

osby

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I don't think anyone is claiming they are blackmailing them. But it is obvious they were the ones that were the most difficult to negotiate with.
I don't know, I saw way too many "X happened at base game because SE was witholding Cloud" arguments without any evidence at the height of Brave discussion.
 

GoodGrief741

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Would it seem out of the realm of possibility that Geno could still have presence in the base game and still be the DLC pick? Or do you think having him present in the base game is a hard deconfirmation?
I don't think anything is a hard disconfirmation anymore in Smash. We can assume certain things, but then Chrom happens. Anything can change.

Personally speaking I don't think we'll get Spirits promoted, and yeah, that includes Geno, but theoretically there's no reason why that couldn't be the case.
 

SSGuy

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I don't know, I saw way too many "X happened at base game because SE was witholding Cloud" arguments without any evidence at the height of Brave discussion.
It is a theory without a doubt, however it does raise eyebrows on why Square is the way they are. I personally do not see them as a consumer friendly company. Especially to Nintendo fans in particular. But most of my opinion on that is just years of salt
 
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MajoraMan28

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Ok, guessing that the grinch leak was fake wasn't much of a feat on his part. As for Cloud, I'm gonna call BS on that too. To my knowledge, NOBODY saw Cloud coming unless you want to recognize the few that put out claims within a couple hours before the reveal, and that could be due to broadcasting time delays or Nintendo employees going lax at the last minute because they knew the announcement was imminent anyways. I'm really starting to get the feeling that Erdrick was leakbait and a crapload of leakers fell for it.
You didn't read a few pages back, right?
There were a good number of people knowing about Cloud before the presentation.

I won't be active on the Geno discussion page unless something major happens or I find something that is a game changer. I think the Tansut stuff we discussed yesterday is really interesting but unfortunately we will not know in what order was it discovered. I guess it is important to look at track history for Tansut. If Cloud was the only thing he has leaked, then I find it suspicious. If he has a history with other games before Cloud DLC leak, then I can believe him a bit more.

We will have to see though. I really hope Geno gets his chance in the end.
Tansut's track record is extremely slim. He had a questionable Cloud leak, hours before the presentation. And now he is relying on Erdrick.
Reminder. He leaked Erdrick almost a whole semester ago. That is a really long time, and I question him knowing that early with certainty. The Square list was out as early as August 2018.

Thinking about it, though, it's also like... what do we have to discuss about Geno's chances to find hope for him? Everything has been discussed ad nauseum, and no matter what we do, grasping at straws isn't going to do anything. It's just silly and stirring false hope. The reality is that, for a lot of people, things look really bad for Geno. We need any tiny glimmer of hope to keep our spirits up. It's not like we want the whole 20-piece chicken nugget of Geno getting the red carpet treatment with a huge legacy and relevance literally everywhere to the point of making peoples' livelihoods come to a halt like DQ. We just... want one nugget of love for the first time in 20+ years. That's it.

Sorry. I'm still pretty darn dour about things. I'm focusing a lot of my hopes on Banjo right now, because he's sitting kinda pretty right now. Banjo, my god, if he makes it in, that'll more than make up for my heartbreak over Geno.
I can't wait to see your reaction dear. :3

I feel like, even if the Piranha Plant came up at any point, he wouldn't have believed it. If any of us had been told in advance that a Piranha Plant was going to be added to Smash Bros. as a playable character, I feel like we all would have dismissed it as that source messing with us.

While the Square rep in the base game (though I'm not sure if the part about them specifically being in the base game was info from Vergeben's sources or his own speculation) and Minecraft content were off, time (and E3) will tell how much truth there is to claims of Minecraft content and a new Square-Enix character. The DLC isn't done yet, and if Shinobi and Vergeben have legitimate information, then Nintendo is working with Microsoft for Smash's DLC, so we could get a Minecraft stage as that mysterious sixth blank spot on the stage select screen.
Shinobi is as legit as you can get.
Verge is unstable. He could have gotten info from a source that was piggybacking, possibly
 

AugustusB

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https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...ers-approaching.114127/page-318#post-21540607
From the Banjo Thread, So Imran works for GameInformer and is known to be an insider.

He is pretty much on board with Banjo, but doesn't really believe the Erdrick rumors. He spoke against the Grinch leak and hinted Ridley (I think this is the guy people confused Shinobi with as far as that rumor was I think?) It seems like a speculative take btw, but worth noting.

Thoughts? MajoraMan28 MajoraMan28 since you mentioned it :)
 
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EarlTamm

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https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...ers-approaching.114127/page-318#post-21540607
From the Banjo Thread, So Imran works for GameInformer and is known to be an insider.

He is pretty much on board with Banjo, but doesn't really believe the Erdrick rumors. He spoke against the Grinch leak and hinted Ridley (I think this is the guy people confused Shinobi with as far as that rumor was I think?)

Thoughts? MajoraMan28 MajoraMan28 since you mentioned it :)
Has he ever been notably wrong?
 

AugustusB

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Has he ever been notably wrong?
I believe he has been pretty spot on with his findings. Not to the likes of Shinobi, but incredibly close. Should clarify, he is an insider and would know some things and may never say anything.

Also, Ryce is backing that Imran probably hasn't personally heard anything about Erdrick. So IDK.
 
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MajoraMan28

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https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...ers-approaching.114127/page-318#post-21540607
From the Banjo Thread, So Imran works for GameInformer and is known to be an insider.

He is pretty much on board with Banjo, but doesn't really believe the Erdrick rumors. He spoke against the Grinch leak and hinted Ridley (I think this is the guy people confused Shinobi with as far as that rumor was I think?) It seems like a speculative take btw, but worth noting.

Thoughts? MajoraMan28 MajoraMan28 since you mentioned it :)
He expressed he was speculating and didn't have info. It's nice to see he reached the points I did.
As I said, pretty much Erdrick's only evidence is Brave. If Banjo is Brave, which looking at the mechanics and stats (subject to change, but not by much), fits Banjo better than you might think, he is at the same playing ground as Sephiroth and others.
But don't take Imran's words as him directly leaking. He didn't say anything on that being real info yet.
And no, Shinobi never commented on the Grinch leak. He was the guy who literally leaked Ultimate being a thing at the Direct that had the Inkling trailer.
 
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Firox

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You didn't read a few pages back, right?
There were a good number of people knowing about Cloud before the presentation.
I wouldn't really count any of the people that "knew" about Cloud the day of or only hours before his official release. If there was anyone that knew and proclaimed it well in advance, please produce a name and source.
 

MajoraMan28

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I wouldn't really count any of the people that "knew" about Cloud the day of or only hours before his official release. If there was anyone that knew and proclaimed it well in advance, please produce a name and source.
Nobody "proclaimed" as a leaker. But numerous people knew as seen in the Nintendo Minute of the Cloud Direct. They showed Cloud to a good number of people with a good time in advance.
 

GenoFlash

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Anyone got a link or transcript of what Imran said? Is it that he doesn't believe in Erdrick or just that he hasn't heard anything?
 

Firox

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Nobody "proclaimed" as a leaker. But numerous people knew as seen in the Nintendo Minute of the Cloud Direct. They showed Cloud to a good number of people with a good time in advance.
But wasn't that a nintendo sanctioned preview then? That would be a totally different scenario from what were facing right now with Banjo, etc.
 

AugustusB

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But wasn't that a nintendo sanctioned preview then? That would be a totally different scenario from what were facing right now with Banjo, etc.
So the thing with that is The Completionist and Jwittz were invited by Nintendo to see a special video. It was the Cloud Reveal trailer, not the whole Direct.

I believe they saw it a good week in advance. These are only two YouTubers we know have seen it early. So yeah, a Nintendo sanctioned preview.

EDIT: GenoFlash GenoFlash look at my earlier post. Basically, Imran has not personally heard anything about Erdrick. That is the gist of it.

EDIT EDIT: It is just kind of nice to see that out of the surprise that Cloud was, we now have evidence that not just Tansut knew about it before the reveal.
 
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Firox

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EDIT EDIT: It is just kind of nice to see that out of the surprise that Cloud was, we now have evidence that not just Tansut knew about it before the reveal.
Good point. This further hurts his credibility because it means that he didn't really have any "insider" info that didn't already exist.
 

AugustusB

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Good point. This further hurts his credibility because it means that he didn't really have any "insider" info that didn't already exist.
I do think it is a jab, but again, this is all speculation. The only way for this to be proven is when the Square Rep is revealed. IF there is one.

Its nice to kind of have some wiggle room again. And if Banjo is shown at E3, is the only reveal AND turns out to be Brave...Its the wild frontier all over again.

EDIT: How did no one say this before...E3 stands for "Everybody Expects Erdrick"
 
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GenoFlash

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I do think it is a jab, but again, this is all speculation. The only way for this to be proven is when the Square Rep is revealed. IF there is one.

Its nice to kind of have some wiggle room again. And if Banjo is shown at E3, is the only reveal AND turns out to be Brave...Its the wild frontier all over again.

EDIT: How did no one say this before...E3 stands for "Everybody Expects Erdrick"
I think you mean Everyone Except Erdrick.
 

AugustusB

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I think you mean Everyone Except Erdrick.
Oh snap! (As a new Erdrick supporter, its still pretty funny)

Something to think about now. Banjo & Kazooie HAD to have done well in the Ballot, Sakurai used the Ballot for Ultimate (Mainly for base, but could have used some for DLC - Like Banjo)...My GenoBros and GenoGals....

Lets keep it up!
 

UberMadman

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One thing that I don’t see people mentioning is that Tansut went on to leak Cloud’s Japanese release date, too. That’s not something he could have known by seeing the Direct early like the YouTubers did. I’m pretty confident he had a legitimate source for Cloud.

EDIT: Screenshot for proof:

9DFC3965-D1C8-45A8-8420-1BCEB6EE4E2C.jpeg


“Overcast sky” = Cloudy = Cloud. He released on the 16th in Japan. Tansut posted this in a Smash Bros. thread about the December broadcast, which was announced but not dated at the time.
 
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AugustusB

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One thing that I don’t see people mentioning is that Tansut went on to leak Cloud’s Japanese release date, too. That’s not something he could have known by seeing the Direct early like the YouTubers did. I’m pretty confident he had a legitimate source for Cloud.
This is the first I have heard of this? You gotta a receipt? Genuinely curious is all.

EDIT: Interesting. Thank you for the info. Was not aware of that. UberMadman UberMadman
 
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EarlTamm

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This is the first I have heard of this? You gotta a receipt? Genuinely curious is all.

EDIT: Interesting. Thank you for the info. Was not aware of that. UberMadman UberMadman
It was talked about earlier. I don't think it especially helps his case, as I see the info as two different matters of importance.
 

EarlTamm

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In what regard?
I feel like the Cloud reveal would be more heavily guarded than a release date, even if it's for the same character. The fact that the latter came with a later direct separates the two subjects as well.
 

-Coco-

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The fact that Tansut knew the exact date tells me he had an insider source. Everything else is speculation. You could argue that he knew of Cloud due to others but there's no proof of that. There IS proof he knew something that wasn't known before. Everyone is saying that he could know the release date because other people did but we only know they've SEEN Cloud, that's it.
 
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Ovaltine

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So, at long last, I can make a long post about the most recent developments and how they may affect Geno, good or bad, Smash or no Smash. This is gonna be a bit of a long one, so sit tight!

-

What Banjo-Kazooie Could Mean For Geno

This is something I've been thinking about and analyzing with a hearty mix of logic and skepticism, as well as putting into perspective where Geno would be if the Banjo-Kazooie leaks are true. Given they are both fan favorites that have not gotten love in recent years, they have plenty to do with each other and nothing to do with each other all at once. Here's a quick rundown:

Both Are Currently Irrelevant Characters

This is the big link between the two. Banjo and Kazooie have not gotten a game in just a touch over ten years, wherein they made their last, rather lackluster appearance. Geno's last appearances are in SMRPG, 24 years ago, and Superstar Saga, 16 years ago, as a cameo. (The cameo is, I feel, an important thing to mention, given how Nintendo had to go out of their way for his copyright. We're also discounting Smash for this, as Smash is our subject of focus for the most part, even if not completely.) B-K and Geno have had reappearances in terms of ports and re-releases, however, namely in recent years. Banjo's most recent would be via Rare Replay, wherein Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo-Tooie, and Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts were ported to the Xbox One in 2015. Geno's most recent reappearance via ports is the SNES Classic, released in 2017. Banjo's games are also available since just recently this year for Xbox Game Pass on the Xbox One. They've been reintroduced to the modern era of gaming via their debuts and old games, but they've not since starred in something new.

Banjo's Series Is Currently Irrelevant

Here's a notable difference between Banjo and Kazooie and Geno, one that's worth taking into account. The B-K franchise has long been stagnant, the last new game being Nuts & Bolts, over 10 years ago, that was generally criticized and met with disdain. The Mario series, including the Mario RPGs, has been going on strong without any sign of stopping, as well as being Nintendo's flagship franchise. Older characters that were long left forgotten have been brought back before, and while they are all first-party (unlike Geno), it shows that the Mario effect can revitalize even the oldest characters. Our most recent example is Pauline, whose last appearance in a mainline game (meaning the Mario vs. DK games do not count) was the original Donkey Kong and its subsequent rereleases (including Game & Watch Gallery 2 & 4 on the GBA).

Microsoft Is On-board; Square May Not Be

Here's where they're once again similar, yet also very unlike. They are both owned by third parties. However, Microsoft's Phil Spencer has been perfectly fine with Banjo and Kazooie getting into Smash Bros since as early as 20... 13? 15? One of those. We do not know if Square would be on-board for Geno being included in Smash beyond minor roles (his spirit, player icon, and Mii costume). We also do not know if Square would be up to giving Geno any larger roles in any other games. The difference there is staggering: Microsoft has love for the bear and bird, whereas Square's stance on Geno isn't clear.

What Banjo's Inclusion Means For Geno: The Bad

Let's get this bit out of the way. Courtesy of EricTheGamerman EricTheGamerman , the man and the legend himself, I've long ago seen his point about Banjo's inclusion meaning a poor fate for Geno in Ultimate. It's a valid point that ought to be kept in mind. Their similarities may, in fact, bite Geno's chances where the sun don't shine.

The Fighter's Pass is clearly going to be a bit of a mix of newcomers. With some, Nintendo has made it clear that they want to expand to new demographics, but they've also noted that they want to please not only the fans, but also new people. That means they are still thinking of the fans to some degree... but what degree is that? That could very well mean one sole, long-time, loud fan favorite like Banjo and Kazooie. It could perhaps mean two fan favorites, but I wouldn't wager on expecting more than the one. They may be their way of sating the fans until next time, meaning that Geno, as another irrelevant fan favorite, would likely be saved for another time. Banjo and Kazooie would fill a similar quota to Geno, even if on an even grander scale.

What Banjo's Inclusion Means For Geno: The Good

Now, the good bits. If Banjo and Kazooie do, in fact, make it into Smash, it shows that Nintendo has no problem with revisit old favorites, even if they're from third parties. This obviously bodes well for Geno, for if Nintendo allows that into their planning for future games, they may consider adding Geno in, say, another Mario RPG or something. It also heightens his chances significantly if, and only if, we get further DLC beyond the Fighter's Pass. Given Sakurai's recent statements, I sincerely doubt we are, though. The silver lining to that is, if Square is on-board, Geno could very possibly make it to the next Smash.

Does Nintendo love Geno, though? They do. They obviously do. They'd been mum about him for a long time, but that was likely only because of their friction with Square Enix that had lasted for two decades. Since a little before the ballot (Super Mario Kun getting the SMRPG comic reprinted in 2013, for instance), they've been giving SMRPG and, by extension, our star boy and his cloud friend more affection. They've been giving the game more nods. We got the Virtual Console releases on both the Wii and Wii U. We also got their presence on the SNES Classic, as well as their spirits in Smash Ultimate. If Nintendo wants to bring them back, they will probably try their best to. It just all falls on Square from there.

The Conclusion?

I think Geno's future is brighter than you may be lead to believe. Even if he doesn't make it to Ultimate, I have reason to believe that we will see him again. Never give up. We may see him return sooner than we think.
 

MattX20

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I felt this was appropriate. This is going to be a very hectic weekend for speculation.
 
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