Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Datboigeno]

So, at long last, I can make a long post about the most recent developments and how they may affect Geno, good or bad, Smash or no Smash. This is gonna be a bit of a long one, so sit tight!

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What Banjo-Kazooie Could Mean For Geno

This is something I've been thinking about and analyzing with a hearty mix of logic and skepticism, as well as putting into perspective where Geno would be if the Banjo-Kazooie leaks are true. Given they are both fan favorites that have not gotten love in recent years, they have plenty to do with each other and nothing to do with each other all at once. Here's a quick rundown:

Both Are Currently Irrelevant Characters

This is the big link between the two. Banjo and Kazooie have not gotten a game in just a touch over ten years, wherein they made their last, rather lackluster appearance. Geno's last appearances are in SMRPG, 24 years ago, and Superstar Saga, 16 years ago, as a cameo. (The cameo is, I feel, an important thing to mention, given how Nintendo had to go out of their way for his copyright. We're also discounting Smash for this, as Smash is our subject of focus for the most part, even if not completely.) B-K and Geno have had reappearances in terms of ports and re-releases, however, namely in recent years. Banjo's most recent would be via Rare Replay, wherein Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo-Tooie, and Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts were ported to the Xbox One in 2015. Geno's most recent reappearance via ports is the SNES Classic, released in 2017. Banjo's games are also available since just recently this year for Xbox Game Pass on the Xbox One. They've been reintroduced to the modern era of gaming via their debuts and old games, but they've not since starred in something new.

Banjo's Series Is Currently Irrelevant

Here's a notable difference between Banjo and Kazooie and Geno, one that's worth taking into account. The B-K franchise has long been stagnant, the last new game being Nuts & Bolts, over 10 years ago, that was generally criticized and met with disdain. The Mario series, including the Mario RPGs, has been going on strong without any sign of stopping, as well as being Nintendo's flagship franchise. Older characters that were long left forgotten have been brought back before, and while they are all first-party (unlike Geno), it shows that the Mario effect can revitalize even the oldest characters. Our most recent example is Pauline, whose last appearance in a mainline game (meaning the Mario vs. DK games do not count) was the original Donkey Kong and its subsequent rereleases (including Game & Watch Gallery 2 & 4 on the GBA).

Microsoft Is On-board; Square May Not Be

Here's where they're once again similar, yet also very unlike. They are both owned by third parties. However, Microsoft's Phil Spencer has been perfectly fine with Banjo and Kazooie getting into Smash Bros since as early as 20... 13? 15? One of those. We do not know if Square would be on-board for Geno being included in Smash beyond minor roles (his spirit, player icon, and Mii costume). We also do not know if Square would be up to giving Geno any larger roles in any other games. The difference there is staggering: Microsoft has love for the bear and bird, whereas Square's stance on Geno isn't clear.

What Banjo's Inclusion Means For Geno: The Bad

Let's get this bit out of the way. Courtesy of EricTheGamerman , the man and the legend himself, I've long ago seen his point about Banjo's inclusion meaning a poor fate for Geno in Ultimate. It's a valid point that ought to be kept in mind. Their similarities may, in fact, bite Geno's chances where the sun don't shine.

The Fighter's Pass is clearly going to be a bit of a mix of newcomers. With some, Nintendo has made it clear that they want to expand to new demographics, but they've also noted that they want to please not only the fans, but also new people. That means they are still thinking of the fans to some degree... but what degree is that? That could very well mean one sole, long-time, loud fan favorite like Banjo and Kazooie. It could perhaps mean two fan favorites, but I wouldn't wager on expecting more than the one. They may be their way of sating the fans until next time, meaning that Geno, as another irrelevant fan favorite, would likely be saved for another time. Banjo and Kazooie would fill a similar quota to Geno, even if on an even grander scale.

What Banjo's Inclusion Means For Geno: The Good

Now, the good bits. If Banjo and Kazooie do, in fact, make it into Smash, it shows that Nintendo has no problem with revisit old favorites, even if they're from third parties. This obviously bodes well for Geno, for if Nintendo allows that into their planning for future games, they may consider adding Geno in, say, another Mario RPG or something. It also heightens his chances significantly if, and only if, we get further DLC beyond the Fighter's Pass. Given Sakurai's recent statements, I sincerely doubt we are, though. The silver lining to that is, if Square is on-board, Geno could very possibly make it to the next Smash.

Does Nintendo love Geno, though? They do. They obviously do. They'd been mum about him for a long time, but that was likely only because of their friction with Square Enix that had lasted for two decades. Since a little before the ballot (Super Mario Kun getting the SMRPG comic reprinted in 2013, for instance), they've been giving SMRPG and, by extension, our star boy and his cloud friend more affection. They've been giving the game more nods. We got the Virtual Console releases on both the Wii and Wii U. We also got their presence on the SNES Classic, as well as their spirits in Smash Ultimate. If Nintendo wants to bring them back, they will probably try their best to. It just all falls on Square from there.

The Conclusion?

I think Geno's future is brighter than you may be lead to believe. Even if he doesn't make it to Ultimate, I have reason to believe that we will see him again. Never give up. We may see him return sooner than we think.

These are good points but I guess I don’t see why Nintendo would be necessarily against badding more fan favorites in the FP. To me BK would be more encouraging for Geno’s chances than not. It would show Nintendo could very well be going for highly requested characters like Banjo and Geno than ones done more for promotion or because a series is popular like Erdrick and Steve. Unless spirits outright deconfirm I see Geno having as good a chance as anyone in the SE line-up.

 

[SSGuy]

I am not seeing a whole lot of activity with E3 being so close. It is unsettling to see the Geno thread being so quiet lol

 

[Datboigeno]

I am not seeing a whole lot of activity with E3 being so close. It is unsettling to see the Geno thread being so quiet lol

I think people are just holding their breath hoping Banjo-Kazooie is revealed and Erdrick isn’t revealed and holding onto a glimmer of hope that Geno is revealed lol At least that’s what I’m doing.

 

[Ovaltine]

I am not seeing a whole lot of activity with E3 being so close. It is unsettling to see the Geno thread being so quiet lol

I honestly think we're all just hunkering down with dread, lol. I know I am for Geno, even if my heart has trouble being still over Banjo right now.

Also, Rawest Forest Reanimated gets released at some point today, guys!! Remember!

 

[EarlTamm]

I honestly think we're all just hunkering down with dread, lol. I know I am for Geno, even if my heart has trouble being still over Banjo right now.

Also, Rawest Forest Reanimated gets released at some point today, guys!! Remember!

Thank you for reminding me. Kinda in a tired state of mind, so I kinda forgot.

Man, it would be great if Banjo got in. And when it comes to Erdrick, I have very mixed feelings that have only ever evolved over the past couple of months.

 

[Ovaltine]

Thank you for reminding me. Kinda in a tired state of mind, so I kinda forgot.

Man, it would be great if Banjo got in. And when it comes to Erdrick, I have very mixed feelings that have only ever evolved over the past couple of months.

As I've stated many times before, I'm indifferent to Erdrick, but I'd be happy for his fans if he made it. It also comes with the whammy of being sad for Geno if he doesn't also get in. Considering Erdrick will probably come with Geno's Mii outfit in such a scenario, the likelihood of us getting both is near zero.

Really hoping Nintendo finds some way to finagle him from Square's clutches one day.

 

[Deleted member]

My ideal thing would be to have both a Dragon Quest rep and Geno, more so to make Ovaltine and I pretty happy.

Hopefully if one gets in the current Fighter Pass the other will too on a second one if the former sells well enough.

 

[Ovaltine]

My ideal thing would be to have both a Dragon Quest rep and Geno, more so to make Ovaltine and I pretty happy.

Hopefully if one gets in the current Fighter Pass the other will too on a second one if the former sells well enough.

That would be the dream. In an ideal world, we'd get both.

I don't think we'll get another Fighter's Pass, though. Sakurai has shown his disdain for season passes and for letting DLC drag on for too long. Further DLC beyond the FP is looking less and less likely as time goes on.

 

[Deleted member]

That would be the dream. In an ideal world, we'd get both.

I don't think we'll get another Fighter's Pass, though. Sakurai has shown his disdain for season passes and for letting DLC drag on for too long. Further DLC beyond the FP is looking less and less likely as time goes on.

Yup, it sadly could happen that way.

I do have hope on Nintendo convincing Square to do anything with Geno based on their current relationship these days, which is almost as strong as in the NES and SNES days.

 

[Ovaltine]

Yup, it sadly could happen that way.

I do have hope on Nintendo convincing Square to do anything with Geno based on their current relationship these days, which is almost as strong as in the NES and SNES days.

I do, too. At the very least, I believe Geno's chances of a comeback are greater than ever, especially since, if Banjo gets in, it shows that Nintendo has no qualms with reviving old fan favorites. This includes third parties, given that Banjo is one... and from a direct competitor of theirs, no less.

I'm crossing my fingers.

 

[Ze Diglett]

It's here, fellas!

And OHHHHHHHH

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH BOI

IS GOOOOOOOOOOD

 

[Deleted member]

It's here, fellas!

And OHHHHHHHH

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH BOI

IS GOOOOOOOOOOD

Holy wumpa!

This video felt nostalgic and great!

 

[EarlTamm]

It's here, fellas!

And OHHHHHHHH

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH BOI

IS GOOOOOOOOOOD

That last animator.

That hit me in the heart.

 

[Deleted member]

That last animator.

That hit me in the heart.

The only thing left that would have made it perfect is the “I’m a gaming god” text at the end.

Unless it is on this collab and I missed it.

 

[Ovaltine]

It's here, fellas!

And OHHHHHHHH

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH BOI

IS GOOOOOOOOOOD

That is so incredible and such a testament to how the fans care about SMRPG so much more than Nintendo and (especially) Square EVER could.

This was well worth the wait. Freaking love it. <3

 

[zippyskipy]

It's here, fellas!

And OHHHHHHHH

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH BOI

IS GOOOOOOOOOOD

hi yes this is incredibly good and if you guys need me I'll be on the floor over here watching this all day

 

[GenoFlash]

Honestly, even if Erdrick is revealed and the Mii costume comes back, I'm not going to be mad. Just getting the costume itself is a testament to Geno's longevity and the wishes of his fanbase pushing him for so long.

It took Japan's biggest RPG series to stop a one-off character from a mid-90s Mario spinoff. That's something to be proud of.

 

[Ovaltine]

Honestly, even if Erdrick is revealed and the Mii costume comes back, I'm not going to be mad. Just getting the costume itself is a testament to Geno's longevity and the wishes of his fanbase pushing him for so long.

It took Japan's biggest RPG series to stop a one-off character from a mid-90s Mario spinoff. That's something to be proud of.

Damn, thinking about it, you're right. We all thought he was very likely until Erdrick came along. It just goes to show how big Geno's gotten, despite the odds. I wouldn't oversell him, of course, and he's not this MASSIVE phenomenon, but... he's loved. He really is.

Also god, I can't get over RFA. Someone should try sending it to Square and Nintendo via links in physical letters. They should REALLY see it. A collaboration this huge might help with opening their eyes.

 

[MattX20]

That Rawest Forest reanimated remake was phenomenal.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

These are good points but I guess I don’t see why Nintendo would be necessarily against badding more fan favorites in the FP. To me BK would be more encouraging for Geno’s chances than not. It would show Nintendo could very well be going for highly requested characters like Banjo and Geno than ones done more for promotion or because a series is popular like Erdrick and Steve. Unless spirits outright deconfirm I see Geno having as good a chance as anyone in the SE line-up.

It comes down to the fact that Banjo Kazooie is the request to end all requests. They aren't just another fan request like Ridley and King K. Rool. They aren't even just another third party request like Simon Belmont or even Geno. Reaching across the aisle to Microsoft is a massive step that is more or less still unheard of in this era. Yes, we've already seen the impossible happen in The Master Chief Collection coming to Steam of all things and Cuphead coming to Switch (potentially alongside Ori if the leaks on that specific topic are correct) is another big moment in Microsoft branching out, but it's still practically unheard of for Nintendo and Microsoft to be working on a collaboration that closely. Especially on something that potentially has little benefit to either company outside of satisfying fan desire (We'll see if Banjo Kazooie gets something new at E3 this year... which if it does, I think we get to call Banjo Kazooie a shill pick actually lol). Banjo Kazooie would also be the first Western third party IP to have a playable character in the game, which is also kind of a big deal to put Banjo Kazooie of all characters to represent something that monumental in Smash (There are lots of Western icons that could potentially hold this spot such as Crash, Spyro, Rayman, Master Chief, etc.). It's Nintendo making their biggest collaboration with one of their direct competitors (They are no matter how many times Nintendo tries to downplay that competition, that's how the console business works) for Smash.

In a game that was already heavily centered around fan requests in both its newcomers and complete commitment to returning every veteran fighter in the series alongside a ton of QoL features and gameplay tweaks influenced by fans. Which basically amounts to them basically being well within their right at any point to say, "Enough traditional fan service, we're focusing on branching out Smash to new consumers and making DLC that may appeal to people outside of the traditional demographics." Getting Banjo Kazooie into the game is basically the biggest fan request you can fulfill until we all decide to go for like Gordon Freeman or Kratos in Smash for some reason. They're an absolute trump card to play in any Smash cycle that will satisfy the hardcore dedicated fan base (and most of those who obsess over the ballot/polls) and make them far more likely to not be bothered by whatever else is released. Sure, people will still care about Smash like always, but with a Banjo Kazooie so recent in mind, a lot of people will essentially be much more pacified to what comes next and generally be satisfied with their impossible fan pick. Look at how many people say, "Just give me Banjo Kazooie and I'll be happy with Smash Ultimate" or "If I get Banjo Kazooie, I won't care who comes next" or the really important one that Nintendo is likely most heavily banking on, "I'll buy the Fighter's Pass if we get Banjo Kazooie."

Now I admit, that all sounds terribly cynical in its own right, but that's why I think Banjo Kazooie in Smash may not be such a good thing for Geno. I'd argue the two characters are perhaps the two most competing for a specific demographic of fans, and with such limited space in the Fighter's Pass (now four positions left), I'm not sure we'd see such another fan pick of such similar background and so primarily focused on fan demand. I'd expect another fan pick like Dixie Kong or Bandanna Dee to serve both Nintendo and work as a fan pick if they were going to put another fan request of some sort in to the game. It's just such a specific niche that Geno and Banjo would both potentially fill for the fan base, and I view them as competing essentially as much as any Square Enix rep versus Geno (Though, they all would get chosen for different and entirely unique reasons of course).

I still do think if we were to get a surprise bonus Sakurai DLC though, Geno would probably be it with only really Waluigi and Isaac as potential competitors for that spot given that all three have had decently vocal outcries at their absence in Ultimate.

 

[Datboigeno]

Honestly, even if Erdrick is revealed and the Mii costume comes back, I'm not going to be mad. Just getting the costume itself is a testament to Geno's longevity and the wishes of his fanbase pushing him for so long.

It took Japan's biggest RPG series to stop a one-off character from a mid-90s Mario spinoff. That's something to be proud of.

I don’t think I’ll be “mad” just disappointed. Partly from it not being Geno and partly from it not being another more interesting SE character or even DQ character. I think the biggest thing though is if people are serious about Geno appearing in a future Smash title or DLC or elsewhere we should continue to voice our support for the character and not let it drop off. Because even though he’s a highly voted character a lot of people have been vocal about feeling defeated regarding Geno and giving up on campaigning for him. I think we should do the opposite and be even more vocal about our desire for him to reappear in the future whether it’s writing letters to Nintendo, messaging them on social media, making art, making videos, interpretive dance, etc. Anything we can do to show Nintendo we want this character back we should be doing. That’s how Ridley and K. Rook got in. That’s how Earthbound Beginnings eventually happened. And Geno is a cool enough character that he deserves a chance for a return in Mario titles/a playable appearance in Smash too.

It comes down to the fact that Banjo Kazooie is the request to end all requests. They aren't just another fan request like Ridley and King K. Rool. They aren't even just another third party request like Simon Belmont or even Geno. Reaching across the aisle to Microsoft is a massive step that is more or less still unheard of in this era. Yes, we've already seen the impossible happen in The Master Chief Collection coming to Steam of all things and Cuphead coming to Switch (potentially alongside Ori if the leaks on that specific topic are correct) is another big moment in Microsoft branching out, but it's still practically unheard of for Nintendo and Microsoft to be working on a collaboration that closely. Especially on something that potentially has little benefit to either company outside of satisfying fan desire (We'll see if Banjo Kazooie gets something new at E3 this year... which if it does, I think we get to call Banjo Kazooie a shill pick actually lol). Banjo Kazooie would also be the first Western third party IP to have a playable character in the game, which is also kind of a big deal to put Banjo Kazooie of all characters to represent something that monumental in Smash (There are lots of Western icons that could potentially hold this spot such as Crash, Spyro, Rayman, Master Chief, etc.). It's Nintendo making their biggest collaboration with one of their direct competitors (They are no matter how many times Nintendo tries to downplay that competition, that's how the console business works) for Smash.

In a game that was already heavily centered around fan requests in both its newcomers and complete commitment to returning every veteran fighter in the series alongside a ton of QoL features and gameplay tweaks influenced by fans. Which basically amounts to them basically being well within their right at any point to say, "Enough traditional fan service, we're focusing on branching out Smash to new consumers and making DLC that may appeal to people outside of the traditional demographics." Getting Banjo Kazooie into the game is basically the biggest fan request you can fulfill until we all decide to go for like Gordon Freeman or Kratos in Smash for some reason. They're an absolute trump card to play in any Smash cycle that will satisfy the hardcore dedicated fan base (and most of those who obsess over the ballot/polls) and make them far more likely to not be bothered by whatever else is released. Sure, people will still care about Smash like always, but with a Banjo Kazooie so recent in mind, a lot of people will essentially be much more pacified to what comes next and generally be satisfied with their impossible fan pick. Look at how many people say, "Just give me Banjo Kazooie and I'll be happy with Smash Ultimate" or "If I get Banjo Kazooie, I won't care who comes next" or the really important one that Nintendo is likely most heavily banking on, "I'll buy the Fighter's Pass if we get Banjo Kazooie."

Now I admit, that all sounds terribly cynical in its own right, but that's why I think Banjo Kazooie in Smash may not be such a good thing for Geno. I'd argue the two characters are perhaps the two most competing for a specific demographic of fans, and with such limited space in the Fighter's Pass (now four positions left), I'm not sure we'd see such another fan pick of such similar background and so primarily focused on fan demand. I'd expect another fan pick like Dixie Kong or Bandanna Dee to serve both Nintendo and work as a fan pick if they were going to put another fan request of some sort in to the game. It's just such a specific niche that Geno and Banjo would both potentially fill for the fan base, and I view them as competing essentially as much as any Square Enix rep versus Geno (Though, they all would get chosen for different and entirely unique reasons of course).

I still do think if we were to get a surprise bonus Sakurai DLC though, Geno would probably be it with only really Waluigi and Isaac as potential competitors for that spot given that all three have had decently vocal outcries at their absence in Ultimate.

Yeah, I don’t really agree with this logic. I’ve seen as many arguments back post-grinch leak say that BK would never be considered seriously because the most logical MS collaboration would be Steve or Master Chief because BK is a dead series. And then after Joker most people assumed characters would be from big recent games which BK is not. I think if BK compete with anyone they’d be competing with characters like Dixie Kong and Crash Bandicoot. Cartoony platformer/adventure characters. The main link Geno and Banjo have is that their from games on Nintendo systems that released on the 90s and haven’t been around in awhile. But as far as specific games though they couldn’t be more different. Geno would represent something very different than BK which is SE RPGs and the relationship between SE and Nintendo more than the vague label of nostalgia character. And because he’s an unexpected/not-obvious 3rd party character that to me would make him more likely than Dixie or Bandanna Dee. I also just don’t think Nintendo only needs to have just one or two characters meant to appease the fan base. Since the fan base is who they’re trying to sell their DLC to. Idk I just think this mindset is a bit reaching.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I don’t think I’ll be “mad” just disappointed. Partly from it not being Geno and partly from it not being another more interesting SE character or even DQ character. I think the biggest thing though is if people are serious about Geno appearing in a future Smash title or DLC or elsewhere we should continue to voice our support for the character and not let it drop off. Because even though he’s a highly voted character a lot of people have been vocal about feeling defeated regarding Geno and giving up on campaigning for him. I think we should do the opposite and be even more vocal about our desire for him to reappear in the future whether it’s writing letters to Nintendo, messaging them on social media, making art, making videos, interpretive dance, etc. Anything we can do to show Nintendo we want this character back we should be doing. That’s how Ridley and K. Rook got in. That’s how Earthbound Beginnings eventually happened. And Geno is a cool enough character that he deserves a chance for a return in Mario titles/a playable appearance in Smash too.



Yeah, I don’t really agree with this logic. I’ve seen as many arguments back post-grinch leak say that BK would never be considered seriously because the most logical MS collaboration would be Steve or Master Chief because BK is a dead series. And then after Joker most people assumed characters would be from big recent games which BK is not. I think if BK compete with anyone they’d be competing with characters like Dixie Kong and Crash Bandicoot. Cartoony platformer/adventure characters. The main link Geno and Banjo have is that their from games on Nintendo systems that released on the 90s and haven’t been around in awhile. But as far as specific games though they couldn’t be more different. Geno would represent something very different than BK which is SE RPGs and the relationship between SE and Nintendo more than the vague label of nostalgia character. And because he’s an unexpected/not-obvious 3rd party character that to me would make him more likely than Dixie or Bandanna Dee. I also just don’t think Nintendo only needs to have just one or two characters meant to appease the fan base. Since the fan base is who they’re trying to sell their DLC to. Idk I just think this mindset is a bit reaching.

If we're still ****ing around here when everybody and their moms think the Square Enix rep will be Erdrick, I think we're not gonna give up anytime soon.

 

[SSGuy]

If we're still ****ing around here when everybody and their moms think the Square Enix rep will be Erdrick, I think we're not gonna give up anytime soon.

Basically this.

The only time Geno will have no chance of getting into Smash Bros is when we decide he has no chance and give up on him. Even if it isn't meant to be for Ultimate, I will still continue to support him and continue to show Nintendo that Geno is who we want. I advise everyone else here to do the same.

 

[EarlTamm]

If we're still ****ing around here when everybody and their moms think the Square Enix rep will be Erdrick, I think we're not gonna give up anytime soon.

Yeah, plenty of other support threads have cracked under similar pressure. Geno will likely never follow that trend, for a variety of reasons.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Yeah, I don’t really agree with this logic. I’ve seen as many arguments back post-grinch leak say that BK would never be considered seriously because the most logical MS collaboration would be Steve or Master Chief because BL is a dead series. And then after Joker most people assumed characters would be from big recent games which BK is not. I think if BK compete with anyone they’d be competing with characters like Dixie Kong and Crash Bandicoot. Cartoony platformer/adventure characters. The main link Geno and Banjo have is that their from games on Nintendo systems that released on the 90s and haven’t been around in awhile. But as far as specific games though they couldn’t be more different. Geno would represent something very different than BK which is SE RPGs and the relationship between SE and Nintendo more than the vague label of nostalgia character. And because he’s an unexpected/not-obvious 3rd party character that to me would make him more likely than Dixie or Bandanna Dee. I also just don’t think Nintendo only needs to have just one or two characters meant to appease the fan base. Since the fan base is who they’re trying to sell their DLC to. Idk I just think this mindset is a bit reaching.

I don't think it's reaching at all. Banjo Kazooie have their own competitors as well beyond the Microsoft ones too, Crash Bandicoot could be one for example. But Banjo Kazooie and Geno are remarkably similar in where they stand with the Smash community. They're both characters that have high popularity in the traditional Smash fan communities we see online, but neither have seen releases or appearances or any substantial amount in the past decade. They both belong to companies that are generally more of a long shot to work with, especially when chosen over their numerous potential competitors from within the same company. Why you would choose either would be different, but they essentially fulfill the same role of "less relevant, but popular with the traditional fan community character choice." One to create hype for those people so they don't feel like they were left out or unheard in their requests. You want to create hype for multiple groups of people, so Banjo Kazooie would fulfill an extremely similar role to Geno and essentially be for that same audience. Based upon that line of thought, I would consider them competing for a similar idea of "fulfilling fan demand."

And no, I'm not going to agree with you on the whole, well they're trying to appease the fan base so there have to be more than one or two "traditionally popular online fan picks." Smash Ultimate has sold 13.81 million copies as of March. Only 1.8 million votes were received in the Smash Ballot officially according to Nintendo. Assuming that every single one of those votes was cast by a unique individual (which we know isn't true as multiple people talked about submitting ballots off of other people's computers/IPs, but I digress for the moment), that's only 12.9% of the Smash "fan base" and consumer base represented. Which means there is an extremely wide number of people beyond those that participated in the ballot to appeal to. The people who voted in the ballot tend to be the most passionate and most vocal in their support of characters like Banjo Kazooie and Geno. But they're also likely to be the characters who will poll the most poorly outside of the "ballot fan base" due to their lack of recent appearances and less overall visibility, an area where Banjo Kazooie gets some extra legacy points for at least being a decently consistent icon of the N64 era even if he fell into relative obscurity afterwards.

If you've already got a character for that roughly 10% of the fan base, than you start looking to other areas and what else you can bring to the table for the other 90% of the fan base and what you can do to bring new people in. If we were just talking Nintendo characters, I might be more inclined to agree that you're just selling to the fan base. Even big names like Dixie Kong, Toad, and Bandanna Dee are unlikely to bring on anyone to Smash who isn't already invested in the franchise. But when you expand that to big name third parties that carry considerably more clout and unique and larger fan bases, then we're talking about branching out Smash in real ways. At the very least, you're creating juicy headlines that positively promote your game further by continuing it's tradition as the great gaming crossover. And that's a part of Smash we should never underestimate. Because Nintendo certainly will not themselves as they look to expand their product's viability on the market.

As far as the unexpected label, that depends entirely on who Reggie was aiming that comment at and how much of it was his usual PR hype man antics. People still debate over what those fairly vague VGA comments mean. Geno was certainly not an unexpected character choice in the wake of Ridley, and especially King K. Rool. He was a consistent prediction and pick, and even has been one since before Ultimate was announced as people began to wonder if his Mii costume meant he would be in the next Smash. He doesn't really fit the unexpected label so easily even if that's the case now. At the time Reggie made that comment he still wasn't super unexpected. If Bandanna Dee is somehow considered expected, than Geno absolutely has to own that same label. Neither of them are exactly All-Stars in their own right and have mostly developed devoted fan bases within the Smash online communities.

Finally, the whole Super Mario RPG as a representation of Square Enix and Nintendo's relationship has never really resonated with me as something that needs to have it's own representation when Cloud essentially already acts as that bridge by existing in Smash and representing Final Fantasy on Nintendo consoles. He speaks for Final Fantasy as a whole even if he's specifically from Final Fantasy 7, and that includes their history with Nintendo. As would basically any other representative choice that Square Enix could have in the game.

 

[SSGuy]

Someone should tag Nintendo/Nintendo of America, tweeting them about the Rawest Forest Reanimated Collab from NewGrounds. At least let them be exposed by it.

 

[MattX20]

I don't think it's reaching at all. Banjo Kazooie have their own competitors as well beyond the Microsoft ones too, Crash Bandicoot could be one for example. But Banjo Kazooie and Geno are remarkably similar in where they stand with the Smash community. They're both characters that have high popularity in the traditional Smash fan communities we see online, but neither have seen releases or appearances or any substantial amount in the past decade. They both belong to companies that are generally more of a long shot to work with, especially when chosen over their numerous potential competitors from within the same company. Why you would choose either would be different, but they essentially fulfill the same role of "less relevant, but popular with the traditional fan community character choice." One to create hype for those people so they don't feel like they were left out or unheard in their requests. You want to create hype for multiple groups of people, so Banjo Kazooie would fulfill an extremely similar role to Geno and essentially be for that same audience. Based upon that line of thought, I would consider them competing for a similar idea of "fulfilling fan demand."

And no, I'm not going to agree with you on the whole, well they're trying to appease the fan base so there have to be more than one or two "traditionally popular online fan picks." Smash Ultimate has sold 13.81 million copies as of March. Only 1.8 million votes were received in the Smash Ballot officially according to Nintendo. Assuming that every single one of those votes was cast by a unique individual (which we know isn't true as multiple people talked about submitting ballots off of other people's computers/IPs, but I digress for the moment), that's only 12.9% of the Smash "fan base" and consumer base represented. Which means there is an extremely wide number of people beyond those that participated in the ballot to appeal to. The people who voted in the ballot tend to be the most passionate and most vocal in their support of characters like Banjo Kazooie and Geno. But they're also likely to be the characters who will poll the most poorly outside of the "ballot fan base" due to their lack of recent appearances and less overall visibility, an area where Banjo Kazooie gets some extra legacy points for at least being a decently consistent icon of the N64 era even if he fell into relative obscurity afterwards.

If you've already got a character for that roughly 10% of the fan base, than you start looking to other areas and what else you can bring to the table for the other 90% of the fan base and what you can do to bring new people in. If we were just talking Nintendo characters, I might be more inclined to agree that you're just selling to the fan base. Even big names like Dixie Kong, Toad, and Bandanna Dee are unlikely to bring on anyone to Smash who isn't already invested in the franchise. But when you expand that to big name third parties that carry considerably more clout and unique and larger fan bases, then we're talking about branching out Smash in real ways. At the very least, you're creating juicy headlines that positively promote your game further by continuing it's tradition as the great gaming crossover. And that's a part of Smash we should never underestimate. Because Nintendo certainly will not themselves as they look to expand their product's viability on the market.

As far as the unexpected label, that depends entirely on who Reggie was aiming that comment at and how much of it was his usual PR hype man antics. People still debate over what those fairly vague VGA comments mean. Geno was certainly not an unexpected character choice in the wake of Ridley, and especially King K. Rool. He was a consistent prediction and pick, and even has been one since before Ultimate was announced as people began to wonder if his Mii costume meant he would be in the next Smash. He doesn't really fit the unexpected label so easily even if that's the case now. At the time Reggie made that comment he still wasn't super unexpected. If Bandanna Dee is somehow considered expected, than Geno absolutely has to own that same label. Neither of them are exactly All-Stars in their own right and have mostly developed devoted fan bases within the Smash online communities.

Finally, the whole Super Mario RPG as a representation of Square Enix and Nintendo's relationship has never really resonated with me as something that needs to have it's own representation when Cloud essentially already acts as that bridge by existing in Smash and representing Final Fantasy on Nintendo consoles. He speaks for Final Fantasy as a whole even if he's specifically from Final Fantasy 7, and that includes their history with Nintendo. As would basically any other representative choice that Square Enix could have in the game.

The unexpected character logic falls apart completely with Erdrick. A lot of people are thinking he's a lock now because of "leaks" and thus any element of surprise is now gone. Don't even get me started on how the "Brave" leaks made people jump to that conclusion even when the datamined stats seemingly contradicted the character description of any noteworthy DQ rep. They're basing it entirely on the same three arguements/bullet points about how iconic the series is in Japan, how it's Square's biggest IP in that region, and "he's in because leakers say so/shut up. They keep forgetting that the series has performed pretty poorly outside of Japan and that less than 10% of the franchises' entire sales come from outside of Japan. Knowing how money grubbing Square is, it's a massive financial risk outside of Japan and they have to give any earnings/profits to 4 other parties: Sugiyama, Akira Toriyama, Bird Studio, and Armor Project. That, and Square was stingy with FF7 content with Cloud with only 2 songs, 2 spirits and nothing else, what exactly makes people think that they're going to be more lenient with DQ? All I see are massive downsides for everyone involved with this supposed choice. Especially since Sora would be a much safer pick and guarenteed to make money and Square would only have to split earnings with Disney and not 4 other parties if Geno is a character they'd rather not use.

 

[Deleted member]

I can't wait until all of this Erdrick stuff is over. I'm beyond tired of hearing the name "Erdrick" for 6 months.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The unexpected character logic falls apart completely with Erdrick. A lot of people are thinking he's a lock now because of "leaks" and thus any element of surprise is now gone. Don't even get me started on how the "Brave" leaks made people jump to that conclusion even when the datamined stats seemingly contradicted the character description of any noteworthy DQ rep. They're basing it entirely on the same three arguements/bullet points about how iconic the series is in Japan, how it's Square's biggest IP in that region, and "he's in because leakers say so/shut up. They keep forgetting that the series has performed pretty poorly outside of Japan and that less than 10% of the franchises' entire sales come from outside of Japan. Knowing how money grubbing Square is, it's a massive financial risk outside of Japan and they have to give any earnings/profits to 4 other parties: Sugiyama, Akira Toriyama, Bird Studio, and Armor Project. That, and Square was stingy with FF7 content with Cloud with only 2 songs, 2 spirits and nothing else, what exactly makes people think that they're going to be more lenient with DQ? All I see are massive downsides for everyone involved with this supposed choice. Especially since Sora would be a much safer pick and guarenteed to make money and Square would only have to split earnings with Disney and not 4 other parties if Geno is a character they'd rather not use.

While I agree with your point, Square didn't own the songs. Someone else did. Square has to actually license out songs to use in their own IP's.

Square is proven as pretty stingy, but that's probably due to how much licensing/paying their employees properly than just simple stinginess.

I honestly don't think Erdrick is coming directly. I think we have an actual more realistic chance of a Dragon Quest Hero class with Luminary or Eight as the face, with Erdrick is a noteworthy alt instead. If it isn't Slime, anyway. This has significantly better chance of selling. You are right that Erdrick is a risky option to take, though. He won't sell well at all in the US or UK, two extremely important sales figures for Smash DLC.

 

[MattX20]

While I agree with your point, Square didn't own the songs. Someone else did. Square has to actually license out songs to use in their own IP's.

Square is proven as pretty stingy, but that's probably due to how much licensing/paying their employees properly than just simple stinginess.

I honestly don't think Erdrick is coming directly. I think we have an actual more realistic chance of a Dragon Quest Hero class with Luminary or Eight as the face, with Erdrick is a noteworthy alt instead. If it isn't Slime, anyway. This has significantly better chance of selling. You are right that Erdrick is a risky option to take, though. He won't sell well at all in the US or UK, two extremely important sales figures for Smash DLC.

That, and it would be a hell of a lot easier to license out music from Yoko Shimomura than it would be from Sugiyama given her willingness to do remixes/cooperate with the Smash music team for over a decade.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That, and it would be a hell of a lot easier to license out music from Yoko Shimomura than it would be from Sugiyama given her willingness to do remixes/cooperate with the Smash music team for over a decade.

True.

Nonetheless, if we do get DQ content, I expect very few songs.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

The unexpected character logic falls apart completely with Erdrick. A lot of people are thinking he's a lock now because of "leaks" and thus any element of surprise is now gone. Don't even get me started on how the "Brave" leaks made people jump to that conclusion even when the datamined stats seemingly contradicted the character description of any noteworthy DQ rep. They're basing it entirely on the same three arguements/bullet points about how iconic the series is in Japan, how it's Square's biggest IP in that region, and "he's in because leakers say so/shut up. They keep forgetting that the series has performed pretty poorly outside of Japan and that less than 10% of the franchises' entire sales come from outside of Japan. Knowing how money grubbing Square is, it's a massive financial risk outside of Japan and they have to give any earnings/profits to 4 other parties: Sugiyama, Akira Toriyama, Bird Studio, and Armor Project. That, and Square was stingy with FF7 content with Cloud with only 2 songs, 2 spirits and nothing else, what exactly makes people think that they're going to be more lenient with DQ? All I see are massive downsides for everyone involved with this supposed choice. Especially since Sora would be a much safer pick and guarenteed to make money and Square would only have to split earnings with Disney and not 4 other parties if Geno is a character they'd rather not use.

Erdrick wasn't expected at the time Reggie made that comment. People thought a Dragon Quest rep was possible due to certain leakers, but Dragon Quest had nothing like the momentum it currently does. We can't retroactively apply a label to a comment not made under these circumstances. Characters are not stagnant in likelihood, but Dragon Quest was nowhere near the position of expected in December. It made some sense to be included if Square got another rep in Smash, but that's a far cry from expected and would essentially eliminate any character choice that isn't specifically impossible to guess like a Takumaru or someone of similarly unknown status (Doom, Ninja Gaiden, Resident Evil, etc. would all fall under the same label). Similarly, no matter how much you may want it to have performed poorly outside of Japan, it hasn't. Multiple million sellers does not constitute performing poorly when the games are also selling extremely well elsewhere. Dragon Quest 3 did not do well in the States, but the series has made a remarkable recovery since that point and they wouldn't localizing almost every game in the series if it wasn't at least profitable. It's not a massive "financial risk" as you are so eager to label it, especially if the projected benefit of Japanese sales outweighs whatever smaller markets in the US and Europe. And from what I've seen of Dragon Quest fans, they'll gladly embrace any form of the series in Smash Bros possible. Erdrick is generally quite liked by the Dragon Quest fans I've seen online and encountered and 3 is considered one of the best titles for a many reason.

The Square stinginess also has more to do with their rights to Final Fantasy related content being an absolute ****ing mess and they are likely expensive to work with. Cloud shows the bare minimum of what we need for a character in Smash like that, and it's more than enough to work anyway with any character. A character, a stage, and a music track to go with them. That's not really a knock on any character choice and shouldn't be. We also don't have any clue how the arrangements for Dragon Quest profits are distributed among those parties and if it's even comparable at all to Disney. Maybe Disney takes more of the check than those four combined. Maybe someone like Toriyama is willing to forego his cut to get Dragon Quest in Smash for all we know. We'd need to know those actual splits and considerations before we could determine that Dragon Quest is such a particularly non-viable option for DLC.

 

[MattX20]

I can't wait until all of this Erdrick stuff is over. I'm beyond tired of hearing the name "Erdrick" for 6 months.

You and me both. It's tiring

 

[GoodGrief741]

The unexpected character logic falls apart completely with Erdrick. A lot of people are thinking he's a lock now because of "leaks" and thus any element of surprise is now gone. Don't even get me started on how the "Brave" leaks made people jump to that conclusion even when the datamined stats seemingly contradicted the character description of any noteworthy DQ rep. They're basing it entirely on the same three arguements/bullet points about how iconic the series is in Japan, how it's Square's biggest IP in that region, and "he's in because leakers say so/shut up. They keep forgetting that the series has performed pretty poorly outside of Japan and that less than 10% of the franchises' entire sales come from outside of Japan. Knowing how money grubbing Square is, it's a massive financial risk outside of Japan and they have to give any earnings/profits to 4 other parties: Sugiyama, Akira Toriyama, Bird Studio, and Armor Project. That, and Square was stingy with FF7 content with Cloud with only 2 songs, 2 spirits and nothing else, what exactly makes people think that they're going to be more lenient with DQ? All I see are massive downsides for everyone involved with this supposed choice. Especially since Sora would be a much safer pick and guarenteed to make money and Square would only have to split earnings with Disney and not 4 other parties if Geno is a character they'd rather not use.

People: 'Erdrick shouldn't be in Smash, nobody was talking about him before leaks!'

Also people: 'Erdrick can't be in, he's expected because of leaks!'

 

[EarlTamm]

People: 'Erdrick shouldn't be in Smash, nobody was talking about him before leaks!'

Also people: 'Erdrick can't be in, he's expected because of leaks!'

I guess the point is "Erdrick wouldn't have been talked about that much if it wasn't for leaks."

As someone who is analyzing Smashboards thread growth for the heck of it, I can say this statement is accurate.

 

[FalconFire93]

If Erdrick gets in, it’s an eh for me, but if Banjo gets in, it will soften the blow of Geno not making it in for me, since Banjo is one of my most wanted characters anyway.

 

[ForsakenM]

People: 'Erdrick shouldn't be in Smash, nobody was talking about him before leaks!'

Also people: 'Erdrick can't be in, he's expected because of leaks!'

I guess the point is "Erdrick wouldn't have been talked about that much if it wasn't for leaks."

As someone who is analyzing Smashboards thread growth for the heck of it, I can say this statement is accurate.

Don't get me wrong, Erdrick has fans that have wanted him before Vergeben ever existed.

Like their thread here was made in 2008 by Teeb147 themselves no less (makes sense why they are so defensive about Erdrick, they are as close to OG for him as you can get on this forum it would seem). The problem is that, it has only 4k+ replies since 2008. I'm not doubting fan devotion or hating on anyone, I'm just pointing out the numbers, and the numbers prove that the number of fans who know and love Erdrick and want him in Smash is VERY small in comparison to others, though I will admit that obviously SmashBoards doesn't reflect all the fans as it's obvious that there is at least one fan out there than isn't registered and active on here. I also admit this mostly reflects Western fans as I doubt there are many Japanese users on here in comparison to Western or European.

This still stands though, as this one of the biggest sites that one would go to in an effort to talk with people about the characters they like and want for Smash. This place is the shining example for that and I think we can use it as an example for how small the 'Western Erdrick For Smash' fanbase truly is. In fact, in the most recent fan poll taken, he ranked SUPER low and all the big names beat him. Once again, no offense, but in comparison the Isaac thread has the second most activity and HE'S AN ASSIST TROPHY! Shantae comes next, and her chances are similar to Geno's in a lot of ways except she's more active and relevant in recent years. Banjo-Kazooie comes next and the dynamic birb and burr duo is all but confirmed at this point. Who is number one?

That's us. Geno Fans, RISE UP! WE DA BOMB YO!

My point is this: even WITH the surge of conversation with 'leaks' from 'leakers' who REALLY have next to zero credibility, they still are a very small group of people who aren't all that vocal. This is why people are saying that Erdrick was a nobody before the 'leaks' because quite frankly, he was.

 

[EarlTamm]

Don't get me wrong, Erdrick has fans that have wanted him before Vergeben ever existed.

Like their thread here was made in 2008 by Teeb147 themselves no less (makes sense why they are so defensive about Erdrick, they are as close to OG for him as you can get on this forum it would seem). The problem is that, it has only 4k+ replies since 2008. I'm not doubting fan devotion or hating on anyone, I'm just pointing out the numbers, and the numbers prove that the number of fans who know and love Erdrick and want him in Smash is VERY small in comparison to others, though I will admit that obviously SmashBoards doesn't reflect all the fans as it's obvious that there is at least one fan out there than isn't registered and active on here. I also admit this mostly reflects Western fans as I doubt there are many Japanese users on here in comparison to Western or European.

This still stands though, as this one of the biggest sites that one would go to in an effort to talk with people about the characters they like and want for Smash. This place is the shining example for that and I think we can use it as an example for how small the 'Western Erdrick For Smash' fanbase truly is. In fact, in the most recent fan poll taken, he ranked SUPER low and all the big names beat him. Once again, no offense, but in comparison the Isaac thread has the second most activity and HE'S AN ASSIST TROPHY! Shantae comes next, and her chances are similar to Geno's in a lot of ways except she's more active and relevant in recent years. Banjo-Kazooie comes next and the dynamic birb and burr duo is all but confirmed at this point. Who is number one?

That's us. Geno Fans, RISE UP! WE DA BOMB YO!

My point is this: even WITH the surge of conversation with 'leaks' from 'leakers' who REALLY have next to zero credibility, they still are a very small group of people who aren't all that vocal. This is why people are saying that Erdrick was a nobody before the 'leaks' because quite frankly, he was.

I would also like to point out, the Banjo leak has produced so much activity in the Banjo thread that I am pretty the amount of replies in the thread since the leak might have already surpassed the amount of replies in the Erdrick thread as a whole. I could be off by a bit, but with how active the Banjo thread is, give it a day or so and it will become accurate.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Don't get me wrong, Erdrick has fans that have wanted him before Vergeben ever existed.

Like their thread here was made in 2008 by Teeb147 themselves no less (makes sense why they are so defensive about Erdrick, they are as close to OG for him as you can get on this forum it would seem). The problem is that, it has only 4k+ replies since 2008. I'm not doubting fan devotion or hating on anyone, I'm just pointing out the numbers, and the numbers prove that the number of fans who know and love Erdrick and want him in Smash is VERY small in comparison to others, though I will admit that obviously SmashBoards doesn't reflect all the fans as it's obvious that there is at least one fan out there than isn't registered and active on here. I also admit this mostly reflects Western fans as I doubt there are many Japanese users on here in comparison to Western or European.

This still stands though, as this one of the biggest sites that one would go to in an effort to talk with people about the characters they like and want for Smash. This place is the shining example for that and I think we can use it as an example for how small the 'Western Erdrick For Smash' fanbase truly is. In fact, in the most recent fan poll taken, he ranked SUPER low and all the big names beat him. Once again, no offense, but in comparison the Isaac thread has the second most activity and HE'S AN ASSIST TROPHY! Shantae comes next, and her chances are similar to Geno's in a lot of ways except she's more active and relevant in recent years. Banjo-Kazooie comes next and the dynamic birb and burr duo is all but confirmed at this point. Who is number one?

That's us. Geno Fans, RISE UP! WE DA BOMB YO!

My point is this: even WITH the surge of conversation with 'leaks' from 'leakers' who REALLY have next to zero credibility, they still are a very small group of people who aren't all that vocal. This is why people are saying that Erdrick was a nobody before the 'leaks' because quite frankly, he was.

Yeah, but so was Joker and people don't **** on him.

 

[Teeb147]

Don't get me wrong, Erdrick has fans that have wanted him before Vergeben ever existed.

Like their thread here was made in 2008 by Teeb147 themselves no less (makes sense why they are so defensive about Erdrick, they are as close to OG for him as you can get on this forum it would seem). The problem is that, it has only 4k+ replies since 2008. I'm not doubting fan devotion or hating on anyone, I'm just pointing out the numbers, and the numbers prove that the number of fans who know and love Erdrick and want him in Smash is VERY small in comparison to others, though I will admit that obviously SmashBoards doesn't reflect all the fans as it's obvious that there is at least one fan out there than isn't registered and active on here. I also admit this mostly reflects Western fans as I doubt there are many Japanese users on here in comparison to Western or European.

This still stands though, as this one of the biggest sites that one would go to in an effort to talk with people about the characters they like and want for Smash. This place is the shining example for that and I think we can use it as an example for how small the 'Western Erdrick For Smash' fanbase truly is. In fact, in the most recent fan poll taken, he ranked SUPER low and all the big names beat him. Once again, no offense, but in comparison the Isaac thread has the second most activity and HE'S AN ASSIST TROPHY! Shantae comes next, and her chances are similar to Geno's in a lot of ways except she's more active and relevant in recent years. Banjo-Kazooie comes next and the dynamic birb and burr duo is all but confirmed at this point. Who is number one?

That's us. Geno Fans, RISE UP! WE DA BOMB YO!

My point is this: even WITH the surge of conversation with 'leaks' from 'leakers' who REALLY have next to zero credibility, they still are a very small group of people who aren't all that vocal. This is why people are saying that Erdrick was a nobody before the 'leaks' because quite frankly, he was.

Haha. That date is due to a complication(or error). The thread was made by someone else after Ultimate's reveal. They left a little bit after the release. I took it over especially because I wanted to add all the supporters.