Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[TerminalMontage]

Brave could be used for a lot of characters, but Jack was kind of obvious.

 

[Ovaltine]

Brave could be used for a lot of characters, but Jack was kind of obvious.

Not quite, actually. When insiders datamined the Jack codename, they all thought it was Raiden from MGS. I'm sure that would have carried on to the public, too, honestly.

 

[Mastadoom88]

My favorite movie is Rise of the Planet of the Apes.

What are y'alls?

Hmm I'm going to go with Castle In The Sky for an animated film and The Big Lebowski for live action. Though I'm also huge on the Alien movies

Well seeing how the last four DLC characters are going to be third party and have already been decided before hand, I'm positive that they decided that those 1300 characters don't have a future in Ultimate. If Sakurai got the right to make Geno playable then why would he make Geno & Mallow a Spirit and not just wait until Geno gets released and put Mallow in the Super Mario RPG DLC Spirit Board?

It's all these small decisions it seems obvious on how things are going to play out.

I personally think Sakurai would put the Geno spirit in even if he were playable, because if he hadnt shown up at all in base, he might have been afraid of ruining the surprise factor they seem to be going for (as exemplified by Joker)

To me, it seems it would be very like Sakurai to make Geno seem impossible only to have him be revealed. It would be a logical way to build hype. But I'm an optimist unashamedly so

 

[Ovaltine]

I personally think Sakurai would put the Geno spirit in even if he were playable, because if he hadnt shown up at all in base, he might have been afraid of ruining the surprise factor they seem to be going for (as exemplified by Joker)

To me, it seems it would be very like Sakurai to make Geno seem impossible only to have him be revealed. It would be a logical way to build hype. But I'm an optimist unashamedly so

It's really farfetched and super optimistic, and yet... I could honestly see him doing that. The spirit team was completely separate, but there were some characters that Sakurai himself insisted 'had to be put in'. I wouldn't be surprised if he got licensing again for Geno, whether it's for the Mii costume or Other Plans™, and he was like, "Put the spirit in there for now, maybe even make a battle while you're at it." This isn't just conjecture, either, for Sakurai's literally said he suggested characters that 'ought to be in' during one of his post-Ultimate interviews.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Exactly. Custom moves didn’t even stop characters from coming as dlc. Why should a png file automatically stop anyone?

The context of Smash Ultimate DLC could be significantly different from that of Smash 4, and we have some evidence to support at least that conclusion of DLC being decided upon much earlier and more intentionally than Smash 4. There’s a rough road map laid out since November. Again, don’t necessarily buy Spirits as deconfirms, but I do think the contexts are different enough to maybe take an extra bit of hesitation on the issue.

I personally think Sakurai would put the Geno spirit in even if he were playable, because if he hadnt shown up at all in base, he might have been afraid of ruining the surprise factor they seem to be going for (as exemplified by Joker)

To me, it seems it would be very like Sakurai to make Geno seem impossible only to have him be revealed. It would be a logical way to build hype. But I'm an optimist unashamedly so

If I’ve learned anything from Smash Ultimate’s hype cycle, expecting Sakurai to pull the long con on fans of characters is fairly unreasonable. He makes fun of certain things and trolls in limited capacities while also trying his best to make sure surprises remain as in tact as possible, but there’s very little to indicate he takes on such long term plans and active measures with characters. I don’t see him as so actively involved in such a major “game of 4D chess” with the fans (Not saying you’re calling it that specifically, but that level of thought with specifics doesn’t really make a lot of sense to me with what we’ve seen Sakurai do).

 

[Firox]

Brave could be used for a lot of characters, but Jack was kind of obvious.

Hindsight is 20/20, my friend. Now that we know it's Joker, the name "Jack" makes a lot of sense, but when it was first discovered, it could have been a plethora of things. Imagine if the codename had been "Heartthief" or "Arsene". In that case, I'd definitely be face-palming at the reveal.

 

[Mastadoom88]

The context of Smash Ultimate DLC could be significantly different from that of Smash 4, and we have some evidence to support at least that conclusion of DLC being decided upon much earlier and more intentionally than Smash 4. There’s a rough road map laid out since November. Again, don’t necessarily buy Spirits as deconfirms, but I do think the contexts are different enough to maybe take an extra bit of hesitation on the issue.



If I’ve learned anything from Smash Ultimate’s hype cycle, expecting Sakurai to pull the long con on fans of characters is fairly unreasonable. He makes fun of certain things and trolls in limited capacities while also trying his best to make sure surprises remain as in tact as possible, but there’s very little to indicate he takes on such long term plans and active measures with characters. I don’t see him as so actively involved in such a major “game of 4D chess” with the fans (Not saying you’re calling it that specifically, but that level of thought with specifics doesn’t really make a lot of sense to me with what we’ve seen Sakurai do).

I really do understand that my farfetched and optimistic theory is absurd, and thinking realistically I understand precisely where you're coming from. I'm merely just thinking way outside the box, because honestly, why not? Technically anything is possible, albeit less likely. But the negativity in here has been eating at me and i think people underestimate Geno's chances in some capacity. Though if his chances are marching to the gallows, I will do my best to enjoy the walk.

Regardless of other people's want for him, I personally think Brave is more likely Sora than Erdrick, even though I hate him.

But i cant look ahead at this future where my least favorite character in gaming gets in before my most favorite without fighting against the stream of cynicism. I'm just some nobody who loves Smash and my hope is I'm completely off base. I'll brace myself for disappointment, but I will also keep hopeful that miraculous things happen.

Couldn't right well sleep at night if I didn't.

 

[wynn728]

How do you know this? lol

I think it's clear nobody knows who the DLC is, nor do we know if spirits disconfirm characters. Remember that these are fan-made rules, they aren't official. As far as we know, only Assist Trophies disconfirm, but we could be wrong and maybe AT's don't disconfirm. We got no clue if Mii Costumes disconfirm either, but from my perspective, I say they do... HOWEVER, I could be wrong because nobody was expecting trophies to have a chance at becoming a DLC character, which happened in Smash 3DS/Wii U. Spirits are the trophies of Ultimate, and this is Sakurai we're talking about! Anything could happen.

We know this if we take the time to think about it. Sakurai made a comment about the Waluigi Assist Trophy back in Smash 4 saying "That means he won't be playable. Just because you try hard enough doesn't mean you get to join the roster." Therefor all current Assist Trophies won't be playable.

Mii Costumes are meant to be a consolation prize so you have some way to play as your favorite character that they have no plans on making playable. If the Mii Costume comes first then the character is deconfirmed. Some will argue that since they made a Link and Fox Mii Costumes that means they don't deconfirm characters, but those are only based on characters who have been with the series for a long time. It's not like their going to give you a Shulk Mii Costumes and Shulk himself as a fighter (and the returning Chrom, Isabelle, and K. Rool Mii Costumes don't count since they were just carried over from the last game).

Spirits aren't the exact same as trophies. Spirits are suppose to be a replacement for trophies but work a whole lot different. Sakurai specifically say that each Spirit is the real character, so because of that Sakurai can technically claim that he got majority of every character that people have ever wanted in Smash Bros Ultimate. They may just be PNG Files, but within the game they're the actual characters who lost their bodies to Galeem and can't return to the real world to join the Fighters.

"Anything could happen" is actually false. We see the same patterns over and over again, but we chose not to acknowledge it. We never see Assist Trophies get upgraded to Fighters in the same game, because if we did then maybe we would've saw Waluigi playable instead of Piranha Plant. Mii Costumes never got upgraded within the same game. And Spirits have an in universe explanation that says the characters are trapped while Trophies are just figures that some kid is playing with that he bought in some type of store.

 

[Ovaltine]

"Anything could happen" is actually false.

That's actually, objectively false. Sakurai's broken fan rules many times in the past. He even directly stated that Ridley couldn't feasibly happen because he was 'too big', and guess who we have now?

It's logical to think that the patterns we see now aren't going to be broken, but we literally do not know. Again, your arguments are sound, but the idea that you're so certain that they are 100% factual is absolutely absurd. Nothing is set in stone that we, as the public, are aware of. These are conclusions we cannot draw with absolution yet.

 

[The Anigriffin]

Watch Brave be a first party with a spirit already present in game.

Also please stop using optional story mode lore as proof that a character can't become playable when we won't know that until February 2020. It's pointless to keep arguing this when it's been done to death already.

Seriously, I'm sick of these constant back and forth negativety debates on the same tired old topics. They make me want to bounce from speculation entirely until Brave is inevitably revealed at E3.

 

[Deleted member]

We know this if we take the time to think about it. Sakurai made a comment about the Waluigi Assist Trophy back in Smash 4 saying "That means he won't be playable. Just because you try hard enough doesn't mean you get to join the roster." Therefor all current Assist Trophies won't be playable.

Mii Costumes are meant to be a consolation prize so you have some way to play as your favorite character that they have no plans on making playable. If the Mii Costume comes first then the character is deconfirmed. Some will argue that since they made a Link and Fox Mii Costumes that means they don't deconfirm characters, but those are only based on characters who have been with the series for a long time. It's not like their going to give you a Shulk Mii Costumes and Shulk himself as a fighter (and the returning Chrom, Isabelle, and K. Rool Mii Costumes don't count since they were just carried over from the last game).

Spirits aren't the exact same as trophies. Spirits are suppose to be a replacement for trophies but work a whole lot different. Sakurai specifically say that each Spirit is the real character, so because of that Sakurai can technically claim that he got majority of every character that people have ever wanted in Smash Bros Ultimate. They may just be PNG Files, but within the game they're the actual characters who lost their bodies to Galeem and can't return to the real world to join the Fighters.

"Anything could happen" is actually false. We see the same patterns over and over again, but we chose not to acknowledge it. We never see Assist Trophies get upgraded to Fighters in the same game, because if we did then maybe we would've saw Waluigi playable instead of Piranha Plant. Mii Costumes never got upgraded within the same game. And Spirits have an in universe explanation that says the characters are trapped while Trophies are just figures that some kid is playing with that he bought in some type of store.

We already told you, Sakurai was explaining the story of the game, not a character's chances for DLC. You're taking this too literally.

Sakurai also said it was impossible to add Ridley, and guess what happened in Ultimate? So many people said K Rool was never going to happen, and they had to eat their words. So many people said the Smash Ultimate DLC would be entirely made up of shill picks, and guess who was revealed first? Fan rules, especially third party ones, have been made since Brawl. First - no third parties! - Snake and Sonic say hello. Second - no third parties from the same company! - Ryu says hello. Third - no third parties from the same franchise! - Richter says hello.

After all this happens, do you seriously think everything you say is 100% fact and set in stone?

 

[GoodGrief741]

We see the same patterns over and over again, but we chose not to acknowledge it

A pattern does not a rule make, nor does a pattern a rule confirm. A pattern can only imply a rule. Patterns have been broken many times before in Smash history.

Brawl - No third party characters
Smash 4 DLC - Trophies can't be playable, a third party company can't have two characters, there can't be two characters from the same franchise as DLC
Smash Ultimate - Mii Costumes can't be playable, there can't be two characters from one third party franchise
Smash Ultimate DLC - A third party company can't have three characters

As you can see, these are patterns that people saw as set in stone using your same logic, and they didn't amount to much in the long run. And keep in mind, Spirits have only existed for this one game, so there isn't even a pattern to break there.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

The context of Smash Ultimate DLC could be significantly different from that of Smash 4, and we have some evidence to support at least that conclusion of DLC being decided upon much earlier and more intentionally than Smash 4. There’s a rough road map laid out since November. Again, don’t necessarily buy Spirits as deconfirms, but I do think the contexts are different enough to maybe take an extra bit of hesitation on the issue.



If I’ve learned anything from Smash Ultimate’s hype cycle, expecting Sakurai to pull the long con on fans of characters is fairly unreasonable. He makes fun of certain things and trolls in limited capacities while also trying his best to make sure surprises remain as in tact as possible, but there’s very little to indicate he takes on such long term plans and active measures with characters. I don’t see him as so actively involved in such a major “game of 4D chess” with the fans (Not saying you’re calling it that specifically, but that level of thought with specifics doesn’t really make a lot of sense to me with what we’ve seen Sakurai do).

If anything, if someone would get in despite being a spirit, it has to be within the realm of reason. Nobody's expecting the mahjong player, the chef from Personal Trainer: Cooking, the Ice Climber polar bear or the girl from Hajimari no Mori to get in, for example. We could get at least one spirit promotion, but we still have no way of knowing when or if it'll happen.

The only people that's messing with anyone are some of the leakers and the fans themselves. The Minecraft content incident in particular has messed with everyone across the board for months. To say nothing of the Grinch.

Watch Brave be a first party with a spirit already present in game.

Also please stop using optional story mode lore as proof that a character can't become playable when we won't know that until February 2020. It's pointless to keep arguing this when it's been done to death already.

Seriously, I'm sick of these constant back and forth negativety debates on the same tired old topics. They make me want to bounce from speculation entirely until Brave is inevitably revealed at E3.

This. Nothing is going to go anywhere until shortly after the end of next month.

 

[Firox]

That's actually, objectively false. Sakurai's broken fan rules many times in the past. He even directly stated that Ridley couldn't feasibly happen because he was 'too big', and guess who we have now?

It's logical to think that the patterns we see now aren't going to be broken, but we literally do not know. Again, your arguments are sound, but the idea that you're so certain that they are 100% factual is absolutely absurd. Nothing is set in stone that we, as the public, are aware of. These are conclusions we cannot draw with absolution yet.

Right you are. Sakurai has broken so many rules and patterns in his own methodology that you literally CANNOT predict what will happen from the outside. He's added characters from the utterly obscure (Wii Fit, ROB, Duck Hunt) to the crazy, fan-dreamed 3rd parties (Cloud, Bayo, Joker, Megaman) to the supposedly impossible (Ridley...and I guess Cloud again? I seriously soiled myself with joy that he actually got in) to the surprisingly mundane (Piranha Plant, the first generic enemy). Bottom line is, what Sakurai says isn't always what he does, and what he does sometimes doesn't make any sense at all to anyone but Sakurai. Speculation can be fun sometimes, but the reasons above are why I've long since given up trying to predict that guy's next move.

 

[ForsakenM]

You know, the way Sakurai handles Geno is getting really annoying.

Admits he wanted Geno in Brawl, but just couldn't do it.

Make a Mii Costume of him in Smash 4 for the fans.

Made him a Legendary Spirit despite Nintendo not owning the rights, so Sakurai had to go out of his way to acquire the rights just use a png file of him.

Had Piranha Plant victory screen be based on Super Mario RPG commercial.

Had an enemy from Super Mario RPG be mentioned in Palutena's Guidance about Piranha Plant (an enemy that Square owns)

But still won't make Geno playable and won't be included in the Fighters Pass.

I don't know about any of you guys but I'm getting annoyed by all of this. Sakurai can keep saying that he want to do it and he's doing all these call out for the fans, but the one thing he isn't doing is making Geno playable. I know that Square owns the rights to Geno and they can be stingy, but right now it seems like Sakurai is dealing with 3 different companies just to get the rights to make Erdrick a playable character. Geno might be easier to get then Erdrick, but it just seems like Sakurai & Nintendo just don't want Geno. If Sakurai has no interest in making Geno then he should stop with all these call out and references because right now it just stops feeling genuine.

With the datamine character being named Brave seems like a dead ringer for a Dragon Quest character being that character, and I doubt there will be two Square Enix characters being part of the DLC.

Also remember what Sakurai said when describing Spirits. "Characters lose their physical forms. All of them, except for the Fighters, are turn into Spirits and cannot return to the real world." He gave an in universe explanation to what Spirits are; the characters losing their bodies because of Galeem's attack, so they can't be fighters. Trophies never got an explanation to what they are, which put them in a different scenario when it comes to deconfirmations. So in universe for Super Smash Bros Ultimate, when Galeem attacked Geno lost his body and can't escape to the real world to join the fight with the rest of the characters.

I don't want this to be true, but looking at the explanation of Spirits and Datamined Brave character it seems like Geno, and all other Spirit characters, are actually legitimately dead.

Well seeing how the last four DLC characters are going to be third party and have already been decided before hand, I'm positive that they decided that those 1300 characters don't have a future in Ultimate. If Sakurai got the right to make Geno playable then why would he make Geno & Mallow a Spirit and not just wait until Geno gets released and put Mallow in the Super Mario RPG DLC Spirit Board?

It's all these small decisions it seems obvious on how things are going to play out.

If there was going to be a Mario RPG Spirit Board then why is Mallow in the base game and not hold back for the DLC?

Majority of the Nintendo characters people have been wanting are deconfirmed by Assist Trophies and Mii Costumes. The only Nintendo character that are possibly left (if Spirits don't deconfirm) are Elma who seems eh, Bandana Waddle Dee who seems more of a base roster character and not going to be worth $6, Hades (and we all know how much the Smash Bros fans love Kid Icarus characters), and Paper Mario who lost his popularity. There's not much Nintendo characters left and the ones that are left aren't that exciting or really wanted. Joker is the first, so to have the last four be bottom tier Nintendo characters that a lot don't care for would be disappointing.


Or maybe they don't have the Geno and Mallow Spirits in the game to begin with if Geno was going to be a DLC Fighter.

We know this if we take the time to think about it. Sakurai made a comment about the Waluigi Assist Trophy back in Smash 4 saying "That means he won't be playable. Just because you try hard enough doesn't mean you get to join the roster." Therefor all current Assist Trophies won't be playable.

Mii Costumes are meant to be a consolation prize so you have some way to play as your favorite character that they have no plans on making playable. If the Mii Costume comes first then the character is deconfirmed. Some will argue that since they made a Link and Fox Mii Costumes that means they don't deconfirm characters, but those are only based on characters who have been with the series for a long time. It's not like their going to give you a Shulk Mii Costumes and Shulk himself as a fighter (and the returning Chrom, Isabelle, and K. Rool Mii Costumes don't count since they were just carried over from the last game).

Spirits aren't the exact same as trophies. Spirits are suppose to be a replacement for trophies but work a whole lot different. Sakurai specifically say that each Spirit is the real character, so because of that Sakurai can technically claim that he got majority of every character that people have ever wanted in Smash Bros Ultimate. They may just be PNG Files, but within the game they're the actual characters who lost their bodies to Galeem and can't return to the real world to join the Fighters.

"Anything could happen" is actually false. We see the same patterns over and over again, but we chose not to acknowledge it. We never see Assist Trophies get upgraded to Fighters in the same game, because if we did then maybe we would've saw Waluigi playable instead of Piranha Plant. Mii Costumes never got upgraded within the same game. And Spirits have an in universe explanation that says the characters are trapped while Trophies are just figures that some kid is playing with that he bought in some type of store.

So I lined up all your recent posts so that yourself and others can get a good look at them. Before I dive to deep, here is a post from someone else who points out how Spirits were chosen and are completely irrelevant to what can and can't be DLC as well as a little insight into how meetings and essentially contracts work for DLC. I don't agree with him personally on Jane being anything relevant or huge, but other than that his points are solid.

Here's the fact; most of the spirits were selected by a unique team. All Sakurai did was go over them. He literally removed all Piranha Plant-related stuff, and the character has evidence they were planned for base. The spirits were far more likely finished before any regular DLC was negotiated. He can go to the same company twice for stuff, because situations change. Take a look at the Jane data we had. It's suddenly missing and she's nowhere to be found. For all we know he had to negotiate again to get the money back from Sega because she was completely scrapped(and he isn't going to just "not use it". He'd use it as something else, with their permission, or re-negotiate it because Sega trusts in Sakurai and Nintendo to be upfront and honest with them about the situation. For all we know they're not even mad and trust him and he doesn't have to use the character. But they'd still talk about it. As she's no longer a Joker costume, she'd be used elsewhere, since the content was paid for(but again, they will discuss it too). So maybe she's now a Mii costume, under her new name, Kasumi. Maybe she's an Echo)).

So basically we have a decent reason to believe he negotiated with the same company twice alone. 3rd party content being scrapped is a huge waste of money, and Sakurai literally cannot use it for something else that wasn't already in the contract without talking to them first. Whether it's a similar use(mii costume), a spirit(less likely due to the work done), or an Echo(which requires more negotiation than the other two, as those are far easier to pull off). Basically? The idea Sakurai would only talk with Square-Enix once is not as likely as you're making it sound. Besides that, no way he would get Erdrick super early because the Spirits were already figured out only before they decided to make PP as DLC(which is still a pretty long time away from actual regular Fighter's Pass negotiations).

Now I want yo to understand why I have quoted all your posts. It's because you have had multiple people defeat your weightless arguments (including yourself), yet you don't really respond to them as much as you either ignore and revert back to your original argument which we already know and have already frankly torn apart at this rate considering how many people have piped up to combat your wild claims.

There is no real debate here: it's just you putting up a stance and being so sure of yourself based off of hypotheticals and 'what ifs' that you have taken to heart and solidified as fact to yourself and really only yourself here and the rest of us dropping by to say 'Yeah, that's not really how it is or how any of this works' and then you revert back to original claims when someone goes in too deep against you with out even acknowledging what they said.

It seems like you have a case of confirmation bias in addition to other probable logical fallacies. When you have information present to you that is against what you believe, you fight it or ignore it and wait for something that fits what you already believe. So far you haven't gotten that here and hopefully you won't considering how far out your claims reach into the unknown with nothing but a soggy Oreo cookie to stand on.

The Brave datamine and Tansut (the guy who leaked Cloud) saying that his source at Square Enix confirmed a Dragon Quest character.

On top of that there's Nintendo's third push at trying to make Dragon Quest a thing here in the West with Dragon Quest XI S. Someone in there has an interest in promoting the series.

Don't worry about me going in on you like I have with others, despite my disdain for people who think "Erdrick" is a lock. This seems like less a 'I think he's 100% in' versus someone like our fav duck lesbian Ovaltine convincing herself of the XK-Class scenario and bringing up small little bits as to why. Even so, I wouldn't attack you directly or anything like that, as that's not how you inform others or debate. Also I'm not here to tell you 'Hey, you should stop believing that' as it is your right to do so, but I will point out the flaws in the reasons you have brought up.

So, to counterpoint the things you grasp as why "Erdrick" is in...

Well first and easiest, and what many others have brought up already, is that the datamine does not support "Erdrick" as much as it goes against him more and more. With Erdrick being a title given to the most monumental of heroes in the Dragon Quest lore and Brave being able to translate into Yuusha which means 'brave man' or 'hero' and "Erdrick" often being referred to as Brave/Yuusha, people thought it was a direct link and thought they nailed it. The problem is that is way to easy and doesn't match up with Joker's codename 'Jack' which could have easily been any number of characters...nor does it match up with the new information we have that 'Doyle' was the codename for Arsene. Sure, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and all that, but it would have been a tie no one would have easily made had it been revealed before Joker. It just BARELY has ties to thieves and has no hints at all to Persona. If the connection was made, one could have easily assumed Sly Cooper or even Phoenix Wright/Professor Layton since the connection could have been made directly to Sherlock Holmes. This, with how indirect all the codenames have been for characters that were not revealed (Pakkun was a bit on the nose, but was revealed in November, and dataminers had 'Jack' for months before Joker was revealed in December) and how codenames are supposed to function, "Erdrick" is not nearly a dead ringer. Any character is brave or a hero could fall under this, and the easier it is to make a connection the more likely it's incorrect.

Now, for Tansut. Tansut isn't credible, just like all leakers. When we say a leaker is 'credible' it's because they got something right in the past and they have yet to be wrong, normally. However, leakers are never in a stable position as they almost never have solid evidence of their claims and force us to just except their word for it...which, as we know on the internet, means basically nothing. They can be wrong at any time and their whole existence as relevant hangs on a thread every time they claim something...what a life to live. In Tansut's case, here are the many questionable things regarding him.

• He supposedly knew about Cloud for months, yet never said anything until the day of the reveal
• His message was very cryptic and while can easily be connected to Cloud was completely missed by most due to the cryptic delivery
• Gave incorrect information about Cloud's release date. Regardless if he had the right info, he gave it incorrectly, meaning he is not infallible
• Is mostly silent for years, then suddenly pops up to talk about leaks again, leaving no other leaks to give him more credit
• Stirs up the internet about some image leak rumor that can never be proven true or false since it 'never made it to the public'
• Outright claims that "Erdrick" is real and confirmed despite being cryptic earlier with Cloud
• Outright claims "Erdrick" is real and confirmed despite not wanting to reveal Cloud because it was a big announcement and he didn't want to ruin the hype for people
• Says the reason he knows "Erdrick" is confirmed is because his source confirmed him, but what actually happened is that Tansut kept saying "Erdrick" or referring to the character as "Erdrick" and his source never said "No, it's not Erdrick" and thus Tansut is convinced he's right. "Because I asked A and they didn't say it WASN'T A, that means it's A" For an example: 'I asked if the cookies were for me, and my mom didn't say they WEREN'T for me, therefore they are for me.' Do you see the issue here? He is basing his confirmation on an assumption based off a lack of information rather than on ACTUAL information. It's nothing more than an assumption, as his source could not know or not wish to share who the character really is and thus would not correct him on the name as to not give away undesired leaks.

I hope that gives you some insight into why you can never trust leakers no matter what and also why believing Tansut means believing in someone else's assumption rather than anything with weight.

Last but actually least, Nintendo pushing Dragon Quest. This is nothing new: when not on PS4 or on mobile, Dragon Quest has mainly been on Nintendo consoles and Square Enix wants to make more money and Nintendo wants to make more money AND they are rebuilding their relationship, so obviously the complete version of the latest and greatest Dragon Quest that got the most sales in the US of any title is gonna be pushed by Nintendo. Doesn't mean anything for "Erdrick", it just means things are back to how they were in the 80's and 90's in this particular instance.


Now that I have lined up all this for you, I want to actually say thank you to wynn728 and GenoFlash for bringing these things up because it not only proves my point that people out there are still convincing themselves about "Erdrick" based on weightless claims like I have been saying time and time again, but it has inspired me to finish my super-long post exposing the illogical approach many of the nastier people in the community take to prove their beliefs in spite of losing hours of work on it more than once.

Hope to have it posted sooner rather than later!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To your point, I think the reason Joker's codename was "Jack" is due the playing cards reference. In P5, they named him Joker because he was "their wild card when it came to fighting strength" due to his ability to use multiple personas. A "Jack" is another face card like "King" or "Queen". That's the only connection I can see. That said, "Brave" could really be just about anyone. All we can do is speculate until Nintendo blesses us with another micro-nugget of information.

My point however is that the rest of the Persona 5 crew(not counting Jane as the costume) might either be the same type of reference as Jack or completely unrelated. We know that Doyle is Arsene's codename. So I'm wondering what the other codenames are, as that could give us an idea of what theme they did with the characters. It could even explain Jane, who is Kasumi, apparently.

I always considered the playing card references, mind you. Though I totally misremembered that it was Hoyle that took care of the "playing cards rules", not Doyle, which I thought was a brand. So that clears that up. I doubt Arsene's reference to Doyle is anything else but the Sherlock Holmes reference. Now the question is what the other codenames are, to see if they really follow a theme or not. I'm guessing the references at this point are "character names they can relate to specifically". Doyle as mentioned above with the Sherlock Holmes, and Jack is probably Jack Frost, a notable SMT character, which Persona is a spin-off of. Though this theory only works if we confirm what the other codenames are and then look into what they can possible be, and if the theory shows they're actually related to fictional characters. The closest thing Jane is is basically the female version of John Doe, and Persona characters often wear a mask to hide their face, but that's all I can think of. There's possibly something else that I don't know of related to Jane.

 

[Ovaltine]

Thinking about the points ForsakenM brought up about Erdrick, though...

Isn't it odd that the only other information that Tansut knows is that there will be male and female alts for this character? It would rule out the rest of the Square Seven besides Erdrick... and Slime. Thinking about it, wouldn't it be possible to give Slime alts that might give it a 'female' appearance? Think stuff like Pikachu's and Jigglypuff's alts.

I'd actually be really happy with that outcome. Slimes are SO CUTE. I want a million Slimy Slime pals. Definitely the better and more interesting DQ rep, in my opinion.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Man stuff is really heating up in here.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Thinking about the points ForsakenM brought up about Erdrick, though...

Isn't it odd that the only other information that Tansut knows is that there will be male and female alts for this character? It would rule out the rest of the Square Seven besides Erdrick... and Slime. Thinking about it, wouldn't it be possible to give Slime alts that might give it a 'female' appearance? Think stuff like Pikachu's and Jigglypuff's alts.

I'd actually be really happy with that outcome. Slimes are SO CUTE. I want a million Slimy Slime pals. Definitely the better and more interesting DQ rep, in my opinion.

You know, it still bugs me that it's assumed that Tansut has a spotless track record when the only thing he did before this game was leak Cloud. Every leaker does a mistake regarding their sources sooner or later.

Man stuff is really heating up in here.

The Eddy boogieman is still around, so expect that to last until E3.

 

[MissingGlitch]

You know, it still bugs me that it's assumed that Tansut has a spotless track record when the only thing he did before this game was leak Cloud. Every leaker does a mistake regarding their sources sooner or later.



The Eddy boogieman is still around, so expect that to last until E3.

If not till even after E3. We have no clue if the SE rep would even be announced at E3 if there is a SE rep. I don't understand way Nintendo would even attempt to try working with SE again after how stingy they are with cloud but whatever.

 

[Deleted member]

Man stuff is really heating up in here.

Should I turn the air conditioner on? Or open a window?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

If not till even after E3. We have no clue if the SE rep would even be announced at E3 if there is a SE rep. I don't understand way Nintendo would even attempt to try working with SE again after how stingy they are with cloud but whatever.

Hasn't stopped most people from freaking out just because leakers mention "SE rep". Just watch, the goalpost will be moved, just like with the VGAs.

 

[wynn728]

So I lined up all your recent posts so that yourself and others can get a good look at them. Before I dive to deep, here is a post from someone else who points out how Spirits were chosen and are completely irrelevant to what can and can't be DLC as well as a little insight into how meetings and essentially contracts work for DLC. I don't agree with him personally on Jane being anything relevant or huge, but other than that his points are solid.



Now I want yo to understand why I have quoted all your posts. It's because you have had multiple people defeat your weightless arguments (including yourself), yet you don't really respond to them as much as you either ignore and revert back to your original argument which we already know and have already frankly torn apart at this rate considering how many people have piped up to combat your wild claims.

There is no real debate here: it's just you putting up a stance and being so sure of yourself based off of hypotheticals and 'what ifs' that you have taken to heart and solidified as fact to yourself and really only yourself here and the rest of us dropping by to say 'Yeah, that's not really how it is or how any of this works' and then you revert back to original claims when someone goes in too deep against you with out even acknowledging what they said.

It seems like you have a case of confirmation bias in addition to other probable logical fallacies. When you have information present to you that is against what you believe, you fight it or ignore it and wait for something that fits what you already believe. So far you haven't gotten that here and hopefully you won't considering how far out your claims reach into the unknown with nothing but a soggy Oreo cookie to stand on.



Don't worry about me going in on you like I have with others, despite my disdain for people who think "Erdrick" is a lock. This seems like less a 'I think he's 100% in' versus someone like our fav duck lesbian Ovaltine convincing herself of the XK-Class scenario and bringing up small little bits as to why. Even so, I wouldn't attack you directly or anything like that, as that's not how you inform others or debate. Also I'm not here to tell you 'Hey, you should stop believing that' as it is your right to do so, but I will point out the flaws in the reasons you have brought up.

So, to counterpoint the things you grasp as why "Erdrick" is in...

Well first and easiest, and what many others have brought up already, is that the datamine does not support "Erdrick" as much as it goes against him more and more. With Erdrick being a title given to the most monumental of heroes in the Dragon Quest lore and Brave being able to translate into Yuusha which means 'brave man' or 'hero' and "Erdrick" often being referred to as Brave/Yuusha, people thought it was a direct link and thought they nailed it. The problem is that is way to easy and doesn't match up with Joker's codename 'Jack' which could have easily been any number of characters...nor does it match up with the new information we have that 'Doyle' was the codename for Arsene. Sure, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and all that, but it would have been a tie no one would have easily made had it been revealed before Joker. It just BARELY has ties to thieves and has no hints at all to Persona. If the connection was made, one could have easily assumed Sly Cooper or even Phoenix Wright/Professor Layton since the connection could have been made directly to Sherlock Holmes. This, with how indirect all the codenames have been for characters that were not revealed (Pakkun was a bit on the nose, but was revealed in November, and dataminers had 'Jack' for months before Joker was revealed in December) and how codenames are supposed to function, "Erdrick" is not nearly a dead ringer. Any character is brave or a hero could fall under this, and the easier it is to make a connection the more likely it's incorrect.

Now, for Tansut. Tansut isn't credible, just like all leakers. When we say a leaker is 'credible' it's because they got something right in the past and they have yet to be wrong, normally. However, leakers are never in a stable position as they almost never have solid evidence of their claims and force us to just except their word for it...which, as we know on the internet, means basically nothing. They can be wrong at any time and their whole existence as relevant hangs on a thread every time they claim something...what a life to live. In Tansut's case, here are the many questionable things regarding him.

• He supposedly knew about Cloud for months, yet never said anything until the day of the reveal
• His message was very cryptic and while can easily be connected to Cloud was completely missed by most due to the cryptic delivery
• Gave incorrect information about Cloud's release date. Regardless if he had the right info, he gave it incorrectly, meaning he is not infallible
• Is mostly silent for years, then suddenly pops up to talk about leaks again, leaving no other leaks to give him more credit
• Stirs up the internet about some image leak rumor that can never be proven true or false since it 'never made it to the public'
• Outright claims that "Erdrick" is real and confirmed despite being cryptic earlier with Cloud
• Outright claims "Erdrick" is real and confirmed despite not wanting to reveal Cloud because it was a big announcement and he didn't want to ruin the hype for people
• Says the reason he knows "Erdrick" is confirmed is because his source confirmed him, but what actually happened is that Tansut kept saying "Erdrick" or referring to the character as "Erdrick" and his source never said "No, it's not Erdrick" and thus Tansut is convinced he's right. "Because I asked A and they didn't say it WASN'T A, that means it's A" For an example: 'I asked if the cookies were for me, and my mom didn't say they WEREN'T for me, therefore they are for me.' Do you see the issue here? He is basing his confirmation on an assumption based off a lack of information rather than on ACTUAL information. It's nothing more than an assumption, as his source could not know or not wish to share who the character really is and thus would not correct him on the name as to not give away undesired leaks.

I hope that gives you some insight into why you can never trust leakers no matter what and also why believing Tansut means believing in someone else's assumption rather than anything with weight.

Last but actually least, Nintendo pushing Dragon Quest. This is nothing new: when not on PS4 or on mobile, Dragon Quest has mainly been on Nintendo consoles and Square Enix wants to make more money and Nintendo wants to make more money AND they are rebuilding their relationship, so obviously the complete version of the latest and greatest Dragon Quest that got the most sales in the US of any title is gonna be pushed by Nintendo. Doesn't mean anything for "Erdrick", it just means things are back to how they were in the 80's and 90's in this particular instance.


Now that I have lined up all this for you, I want to actually say thank you to wynn728 and GenoFlash for bringing these things up because it not only proves my point that people out there are still convincing themselves about "Erdrick" based on weightless claims like I have been saying time and time again, but it has inspired me to finish my super-long post exposing the illogical approach many of the nastier people in the community take to prove their beliefs in spite of losing hours of work on it more than once.

Hope to have it posted sooner rather than later!

Sorry that I'm too busy to respond to every single response here. Look, you think I want to be right about Spirits deconfirming characters, no. I want to be wrong, but I'm not going to take other people's speculation on why "so and so" doesn't deconfirm characters. I'm only going to accept an answer from Sakurai, and if he decides that Spirits don't deconfirm and Geno get's in that would be great. I wanted Geno for so long, but with how things are going it just doesn't seem like that's happening. Joker's release made me believe that Spirits deconfirm characters because of the DLC Spirit Boards, I don't care what anyone else think because as much as a lot of people want to say that my knowledge is based on nothing and I don't know anything the same applies to everyone else. None of us are working on this game so we don't know anything, but I'm sticking to my beliefs based on Sakurai's comments and actions as of recently. Unless Nintendo and Sakurai say something otherwise I'm sticking to the assumption that Spirits deconfirm characters.

Remember, so many people were confident that Shadow was going to be an Echo Fighter since he wasn't shown off to begin with (myself included). There was a lot of great arguments that supported his inclusion. It turned out he was just an Assist Trophy. I'm not setting myself up for disappointment again, so no matter how convincing the argument is for a character not being deconfirmed I'm only going to take it with a grain of salt.

We already told you, Sakurai was explaining the story of the game, not a character's chances for DLC. You're taking this too literally.

Sakurai also said it was impossible to add Ridley, and guess what happened in Ultimate? So many people said K Rool was never going to happen, and they had to eat their words. So many people said the Smash Ultimate DLC would be entirely made up of shill picks, and guess who was revealed first? Fan rules, especially third party ones, have been made since Brawl. First - no third parties! - Snake and Sonic say hello. Second - no third parties from the same company! - Ryu says hello. Third - no third parties from the same franchise! - Richter says hello.

After all this happens, do you seriously think everything you say is 100% fact and set in stone?

Until I see a Spirit get upgraded I'm going to take what I think as fact. I want Geno to be playable, but I'm done setting myself up for disappointment. If Spirits don't deconfirm characters then that's great, I would love to be wrong. But as I see things there's no reason for me to think otherwise. Until Sakurai gives a definitive statement I will continue to believe nothing.

 

[Loliko YnT]

Fine, name a Nintendo character that still available to become a Fighter that currently isn't an Assist Trophy or a Mii Costume.
Right now our deconfirm Nintendo characters are Krystal, Isaac, Midna, Ashley, Takamaru, Waluigi, the entire ARMS series, Dillon, Lyn, Skull Kid, Chibi Robi, Custom Robo, Dixie Kong, Rex & Pyra, Saki, and Viridi.

If this mean anything... Cackletta from Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga isn't anywhere to be seen.
You know , the main antagonist of the first Mario and Luigi and one of the most important character lore-wise (For Fawful character arc)
Also no Popple , a fan-favorite who appeared in both Superstar saga and Dream Team (He was a boss and important to the story)

Also , they gave us "This is Minion turf !" as a track , wich come from the Superstar Saga remake... Yet , no sign from Captain Goomba , even tho he was the face of the commerial for the remake. (Plus no Captain Maskass , no Captain Boo , no Captain Koopa...)

Hell , I don't know if Starlow is a spirit or not. Also no Stuffwell despise the princess shroob spirit (I was still heavily surprised to see her , since PiT didn't do well sale wise.)
And no "Mario & Luigi" spirit when there is stuff like Mario (Tennis Aces) spirit...

You could also count the BFF (Dieter , Kaley and Beef) , but the BiS remake , while announced before Smash , was released after Smash.

I know most of them won't probably get in (My only somewhat realistic hope for Mario & Luigi is Fawful) , but even when applying your logic of "spirits deconfirm and stuff" , I can find a lot of Nintendo characters that aren't in-game.

Btw , Paper Mario got butchered spirit wise. Paper Mario, Dimentio and Huey. THAT'S. ****ING. IT. It should have as much spirits as M&L.

This is just from one franchise I know very well , I could also say that Fawful not having Dark Fawful as an ehanced spirit was a wasted opportunity , lack of Dark Star and Dark Bowser , no Zeekeeper , no Kylie Koopa , no Liroy , no Paper Jam trio , no basic shroob , no Midbus , you get my point.

I know it's unrealistic to expect a perfect representation for every franchise btw , I'm honestly quite satisfied with the M&L spirit line-up , Cackletta is the only one that really deserve to be here and is missing.

But that's beside the point.
The thing is , there is still a ton of room for Nintendo representation in Smash. The main reason so much Nintendo stuff is in base game is... That it's very easy to add , and would please fans.
And honestly... Who care if someone like Captain Toad has the Captain Toad spirit ? DUDE , IT'S SMASH BROS. THE GAME WHERE SNAKE BREAK MARIO NECK IN FRONT OF KIRBY IN WILLY'S CASTLE. THE GAME WHERE YOU CAN PLAY AS 4 OLIMARS AND 4 ALPH WITH AN ARMY OF PIKMIN.THE GAME WHERE THE 8 PLAYER FREE FOR ALL WITH ONLY ICE CLIMBERS ON FOUNTAIN OF DREAM IS REAL !
Who the hell is going to care about such a tiny detail ? At best , I could see master spirits also be fighters confusing , but that's it. And a lot of AT could have replacement (Dark Dawn Isaac , Silver , Waluigi with his tennis aces look , Loid to replace Jeff) , and costumes are costumes. Not characters.

The only spirits that may not get in are 3rd party spirit , for a simple reason : It take time to negotiate stuff like that. That's it , simple as that.

So , to change the debate , I had the weirdest thought ever. I tried my first Touhou game recently , Azure Reflections. I love it , and for some reason... I really wanted Geno and Mallow playable in those games. But , every character is female soooo...

Don't lie to me. Those are the best girls.
(I wanted to show another Genoette with a more human look that I love , but I can't find it ,aaaaaaaaaa)
Zippyskipy DA account , sorry for not crediting your art : https://www.deviantart.com/zippyskipy

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry that I'm too busy to respond to every single response here. Look, you think I want to be right about Spirits deconfirming characters, no. I want to be wrong, but I'm not going to take other people's speculation on why "so and so" doesn't deconfirm characters. I'm only going to accept an answer from Sakurai, and if he decides that Spirits don't deconfirm and Geno get's in that would be great. I wanted Geno for so long, but with how things are going it just doesn't seem like that's happening. Joker's release made me believe that Spirits deconfirm characters because of the DLC Spirit Boards, I don't care what anyone else think because as much as a lot of people want to say that my knowledge is based on nothing and I don't know anything the same applies to everyone else. None of us are working on this game so we don't know anything, but I'm sticking to my beliefs based on Sakurai's comments and actions as of recently. Unless Nintendo and Sakurai say something otherwise I'm sticking to the assumption that Spirits deconfirm characters.

Remember, so many people were confident that Shadow was going to be an Echo Fighter since he wasn't shown off to begin with (myself included). There was a lot of great arguments that supported his inclusion. It turned out he was just an Assist Trophy. I'm not setting myself up for disappointment again, so no matter how convincing the argument is for a character not being deconfirmed I'm only going to take it with a grain of salt.

There's really nothing that says they do either. If you want to wait for an answer from Sakurai, don't be 100% sure about anything. That's the main point we're trying to make.

And, like I said in my previous post, remember how sure people were that characters like Ridley, K Rool, and Joker would never be added? Once again, the point here is to not take anything as a 100% confirmation.

Until I see a Spirit get upgraded I'm going to take what I think as fact. I want Geno to be playable, but I'm done setting myself up for disappointment. If Spirits don't deconfirm characters then that's great, I would love to be wrong. But as I see things there's no reason for me to think otherwise. Until Sakurai gives a definitive statement I will continue to believe nothing.

Then at least don't act like they definitely do either. No one knows anything for certain that hasn't yet been said by Nintendo/Sakurai.

 

[Ovaltine]

Until I see a Spirit get upgraded I'm going to take what I think as fact. I want Geno to be playable, but I'm done setting myself up for disappointment. If Spirits don't deconfirm characters then that's great, I would love to be wrong. But as I see things there's no reason for me to think otherwise. Until Sakurai gives a definitive statement I will continue to believe nothing.

Well, then that's you. Trust me, my hopes for Geno in the pass are dashed. I even agree with some of your points and I think spirits deconfirming is a likely outcome. However, trying to shove your opinions into peoples' faces, for lack of better phrasing, and acting as though your perception of fact should be everyone else's is... kind of irksome? It's something that's been argued here ad nauseum. People are aware of the very real possibility. The way this has been done to death and beaten into the ground makes this a rather tiring argument to revisit, you know?

 

[Deleted member]

So , to change the debate , I had the weirdest thought ever. I tried my first Touhou game recently , Azure Reflections. I love it , and for some reason... I really wanted Geno and Mallow playable in those games. But , every character is female soooo...

Don't lie to me. Those are the best girls.
(I wanted to show another Genoette with a more human look that I love , but I can't find it ,aaaaaaaaaa)

Those are some VERY good girls. I had that Geno one as my pfp once.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Should I turn the air conditioner on? Or open a window?

I live in Texas. Make it two.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

No one knows anything for certain that hasn't yet been said by Nintendo/Sakurai.

Freaking this. WE. JUST. DON'T. KNOW.

Anyway, I'm going to leave this thread's paranoia pity party until E3 blows over, later blokes.

View attachment 214131

Conflicted, but those are good.

Also, it's Sergeant Guy, your French is showing.

 

[Firox]

XK-Class scenario

Can't say I'm usually a fan of your long-winded and aggressive posts, but that SCP reference? I'm gonna give you some kudos and a slow clap. Excellent touch.

 

[Deleted member]

I live in Texas. Make it two.

Geno fans who live in Texas reunite!

 

[MissingGlitch]

Geno fans who live in Texas reunite!

There are dozens of us! Dozens!

 

[Ze Diglett]

Should I turn the air conditioner on? Or open a window?

I gotcha.

There, I opened the window. Now chill the **** out, y'all.

 

[Deleted member]

Who else forgot we're at 922 pages?

 

[Ovaltine]

Freaking this. WE. JUST. DON'T. KNOW.

Anyway, I'm going to leave this thread's paranoia pity party until E3 blows over, later blokes.

Can't say I blame ya, I'm tempted on bailing 'til E3 myself because of how fast things kinda went to ****. There's not much to speculate about right now anyhow.

See ya later, buddy!

 

[AugustusB]

Geno fans who live in Texas reunite!

There are dozens of us! Dozens!

I am came in here to say YeeHa!!! Round up the ole Geno Gang. (I live in Texas as well lol)

Also, let's just be patient gang. May will be long, but we should HOPEFULLY get some hints towards E3.

 

[Deleted member]

I gotcha.

There, I opened the window. Now chill the **** out, y'all.

Thanks!

 

[Firox]

Can't say I blame ya, I'm tempted on bailing 'til E3 myself because of how fast things kinda went to ****. There's not much to speculate about right now anyhow.

See ya later, buddy!

The main issue is that Nintendo has left us all out to dry. At least we got Joker's initial reveal when Smash was released. That gave something to look forward to. We could speculate on his moveset and wait for PP to come out so we could get an idea of what to expect from the other DLC. I for one, was hoping that with Joker's release that we would at least have a name to look forward to, but nope. We got zilch. Nothing. Nada. Bupkiss. We get to starve for two months so that they can wow us at E3. I suppose that would be fine to build up the anticipation as long as we get at least one of the following:

A) Full character reveal with gameplay and immediate release date
B) More than one character at least announced
C) Mention of more upcoming game modes

I swear, if they hold out this long only to have Sakurai deadpan the screen and say "We are pleased to give you another Fire Emblem character in August," I'll be so effing done. I mean, I'll buy any cool characters that end up as DLC, but my hype levels will have completely died out. We can't even speculate in the fun way if there's nothing tactile to talk about.

 

[MissingGlitch]

I am came in here to say YeeHa!!! Round up the ole Geno Gang. (I live in Texas as well lol)

Also, let's just be patient gang. May will be long, but we should HOPEFULLY get some hints towards E3.

Geno wearing a cowboy hat confirmed?

 

[Deleted member]

Geno wearing a cowboy hat confirmed?

+