Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[wynn728]

Exactly this. Honestly, that's like leaving out Toad when talking about major Mario characters(that are not 3rd party). You just don't. And I don't mean "being playable", I mean as is.

When it comes to Trophies, or something similar, you include the main group. Sometimes it doesn't happen, but SE let him use both characters, and of course Sakurai wants both. He knows who is in the game of importance. And it's not rocket science to include the 5 main characters of the game. The fact we got nothing more could be a sign of a planned spirit board. It might not even have Mallow and Geno on it(if Geno is playable, Mallow doesn't have to be on it, but other SMRPG characters and other spirits).

The other thing is Joker is a unique situation as we had no Persona 5 content before. So of course it has all new spirits for the spirit board(was any base game spirits used for that?). That doesn't apply for a Mario character like Geno. It could use all new SMRPG spirits. It could use a lot of other things.

I doubt they had a separate team that made the Spirits battles and had no idea on who would be DLC. Because if that was the case then that means that team went to contact Square Enix to get the rights to use Geno and Mallow without Sakurai's knowledge. Seems like Sakurai would give a look over on what Spirits are being made before they're finalized.

Also making Spirits aren't difficult. They just select the character that closely resembles the Spirit, choose a stage, and apply a certain difficulty. All the hard work is already done with programing the CPU for battles.

 

[ForsakenM]

I'm pretty firmly convinced of Erdrick's inclusion but I don't think a couple of JPEGs is enough to solidly count Geno out, especially when there's precedent for this when Mewtwo and Lucas had trophies in Smash For despite being DLC fighters, the former whom had already been announced pre-release.

See, here is my thing: firmly convinced by WHAT?!

Seriously, I want to know what information out there could still have someone convinced he's a likely choice out of all the possible choices. What damning evidence did you find that made you believe he's essentially a lock?

 

[Deleted member]

I doubt they had a separate team that made the Spirits battles and had no idea on who would be DLC. Because if that was the case then that means that team went to contact Square Enix to get the rights to use Geno and Mallow without Sakurai's knowledge. Seems like Sakurai would give a look over on what Spirits are being made before they're finalized.

Also making Spirits aren't difficult. They just select the character that closely resembles the Spirit, choose a stage, and apply a certain difficulty. All the hard work is already done with programing the CPU for battles.

Well, they did have a separate team for spirits no matter how believable it is.

And if making spirits aren't difficult, it further pushes me away of the idea that they deconfirm.

 

[wynn728]

...There are numerous Nintendo characters who are spirits that could be added. Once again, the only thing keeping them out are fan rules.

And the Smash Ultimate base roster mostly began with fan favorites, and the Smash 4 DLC began with veterans. Did that mean the rest of the Ultimate base roster would be fan favorites or the rest of the Smash 4 DLC be veterans? Exactly.

No it's not, fan rules are not keeping these characters out from being playable. You think Sakurai & Nintendo are looking at this and just say "Dang it, we were going to make this character that was a Spirit/Assist/Mii Costume but these fans are saying it deconfirms them. I guess we'll just drop all the our plans because these fans created the rules for our series."

They don't care what our fan rules are. They are not holding anything back. Sakurai and Nintendo are going to do whatever the hell they want regardless of what the fans think will happen.

 

[The Anigriffin]

They don't care what our fan rules are. They are not holding anything back. Sakurai and Nintendo are going to do whatever the hell they want regardless of what the fans think will happen.

That's literally the point we're trying to make.

 

[Deleted member]

No it's not, fan rules are not keeping these characters out from being playable. You think Sakurai & Nintendo are looking at this and just say "Dang it, we were going to make this character that was a Spirit/Assist/Mii Costume but these fans are saying it deconfirms them. I guess we'll just drop all the our plans because these fans created the rules for our series."

They don't care what our fan rules are. They are not holding anything back. Sakurai and Nintendo are going to do whatever the hell they want regardless of what the fans think will happen.

There you go. Sakurai and Nintendo don't care what our fan rules are and are going to do whatever they want.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I doubt they had a separate team that made the Spirits battles and had no idea on who would be DLC. Because if that was the case then that means that team went to contact Square Enix to get the rights to use Geno and Mallow without Sakurai's knowledge. Seems like Sakurai would give a look over on what Spirits are being made before they're finalized.

Also making Spirits aren't difficult. They just select the character that closely resembles the Spirit, choose a stage, and apply a certain difficulty. All the hard work is already done with programing the CPU for battles.

Here's the fact; most of the spirits were selected by a unique team. All Sakurai did was go over them. He literally removed all Piranha Plant-related stuff, and the character has evidence they were planned for base. The spirits were far more likely finished before any regular DLC was negotiated. He can go to the same company twice for stuff, because situations change. Take a look at the Jane data we had. It's suddenly missing and she's nowhere to be found. For all we know he had to negotiate again to get the money back from Sega because she was completely scrapped(and he isn't going to just "not use it". He'd use it as something else, with their permission, or re-negotiate it because Sega trusts in Sakurai and Nintendo to be upfront and honest with them about the situation. For all we know they're not even mad and trust him and he doesn't have to use the character. But they'd still talk about it. As she's no longer a Joker costume, she'd be used elsewhere, since the content was paid for(but again, they will discuss it too). So maybe she's now a Mii costume, under her new name, Kasumi. Maybe she's an Echo)).

So basically we have a decent reason to believe he negotiated with the same company twice alone. 3rd party content being scrapped is a huge waste of money, and Sakurai literally cannot use it for something else that wasn't already in the contract without talking to them first. Whether it's a similar use(mii costume), a spirit(less likely due to the work done), or an Echo(which requires more negotiation than the other two, as those are far easier to pull off). Basically? The idea Sakurai would only talk with Square-Enix once is not as likely as you're making it sound. Besides that, no way he would get Erdrick super early because the Spirits were already figured out only before they decided to make PP as DLC(which is still a pretty long time away from actual regular Fighter's Pass negotiations).

 

[GenoFlash]

See, here is my thing: firmly convinced by WHAT?!

Seriously, I want to know what information out there could still have someone convinced he's a likely choice out of all the possible choices. What damning evidence did you find that made you believe he's essentially a lock?

The Brave datamine and Tansut (the guy who leaked Cloud) saying that his source at Square Enix confirmed a Dragon Quest character.

On top of that there's Nintendo's third push at trying to make Dragon Quest a thing here in the West with Dragon Quest XI S. Someone in there has an interest in promoting the series.

 

[wynn728]

This is complete speculation and opinion. None of this has any weight or objectivity.

In layman's terms, you're talking out your ***.

Fine, name a Nintendo character that still available to become a Fighter that currently isn't an Assist Trophy or a Mii Costume.
Right now our deconfirm Nintendo characters are Krystal, Isaac, Midna, Ashley, Takamaru, Waluigi, the entire ARMS series, Dillon, Lyn, Skull Kid, Chibi Robi, Custom Robo, Dixie Kong, Rex & Pyra, Saki, and Viridi.

 

[The Anigriffin]

Fine, name a Nintendo character that still available to become a Fighter that currently isn't an Assist Trophy or a Mii Costume.
Right now our deconfirm Nintendo characters are Krystal, Isaac, Midna, Ashley, Takamaru, Waluigi, the entire ARMS series, Dillon, Lyn, Skull Kid, Chibi Robi, Custom Robo, Dixie Kong, Rex & Pyra, Saki, and Viridi.

Well here's two.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Fine, name a Nintendo character that still available to become a Fighter that currently isn't an Assist Trophy or a Mii Costume.
Right now our deconfirm Nintendo characters are Krystal, Isaac, Midna, Ashley, Takamaru, Waluigi, the entire ARMS series, Dillon, Lyn, Skull Kid, Chibi Robi, Custom Robo, Dixie Kong, Rex & Pyra, Saki, and Viridi.

Oh, I forgot Dixie had a hat... but that's it?

Okay, so leaving Dixie Out, there's still others, like Porky and Sylux. Though it depends if you are counting Spirits or not. If you aren't, then way more.

 

[Deleted member]

The Brave datamine and Tansut (the guy who leaked Cloud) saying that his source at Square Enix confirmed a Dragon Quest character.

Well, Tansut leaked Cloud the day of the direct and leaked him through a cryptic message and hints, while he's leaking Erdrick months in advance and outright saying he's in. And when he said that he knew about Cloud since September, he of course claimed this long after Cloud was revealed, and I don't take a leaker's word when they claim to know about something after it actually happened.

For the brave datamine, it's not exclusive to DQ. DQ is a possibility, but it's not confirmed to be brave, especially with other possibilities like Yuri (who's connected to brave in Tales of) or the FE soldier class of which I posted a link to on the previous page.

Fine, name a Nintendo character that still available to become a Fighter that currently isn't an Assist Trophy or a Mii Costume.
Right now our deconfirm Nintendo characters are Krystal, Isaac, Midna, Ashley, Takamaru, Waluigi, the entire ARMS series, Dillon, Lyn, Skull Kid, Chibi Robi, Custom Robo, Dixie Kong, Rex & Pyra, Saki, and Viridi.

Bandana Dee, Paper Mario, Ninten, Claus, Duster, Andy, Medusa, Haydes, Magolor, Dark Matter, Marx, Ana, Paula, Kumatora, Octoling, Elma, Fawful, Dunban, Louie, Kranky Kong, Funky Kong, Lanky Kong, Tiny Kong, Hector, Owain, Leif, Caeda, The Chorus Kids, Karate Joe, and Impa. Just to name a few.

 

[GenoFlash]

Well, Tansut leaked Cloud the day of the direct and leaked him through a cryptic message and hints, while he's leaking Erdrick months in advance and outright saying he's in. And when he said that he knew about Cloud since September, he of course claimed this long after Cloud was revealed, and I don't take a leaker's word when they claim to know about something after it actually happened.

For the brave datamine, it's not exclusive to DQ. DQ is a possibility, but it's not confirmed to be brave, especially with other possibilities like Yuri (who's connected to brave in Tales of) or the FE soldier class of which I posted a link to on the previous page.

For sure, which is why I'm not throwing my chips on Geno away just yet. I would very much rather our puppet boi get in rather than yet another goddamned magical anime swordsman, but I think there's enough smoke around the idea of Dragon Quest's inclusion that I put more weight into it than my own wish that Geno get in.

 

[Deleted member]

For sure, which is why I'm not throwing my chips on Geno away just yet. I would very much rather our puppet boi get in rather than yet another goddamned magical anime swordsman, but I think there's enough smoke around the idea of Dragon Quest's inclusion that I put more weight into it than my own wish that Geno get in.

Oh, okay. I myself don't think DQ is as likely as everyone else is saying, but thanks for not giving up on Geno.

 

[wynn728]

Mii Costumes don't "disconfirm" either. There's literally zero reason to believe they alone matter. 3rd parties, assumedly yes, because that's already licensing their model and using it that way. PNG images, though? They may nothing in comparison. AT's assumedly do because of Sakurai's statements that Assist Trophies were characters who couldn't be made playable. So there's a legit reason to believe that.

But then again, Trophies are literally just models being used. So it doesn't mean anything for 3rd party Mii costumes either. The fact they didn't come with base is far more relevant, so if we see one of them as a DLC costume, it would make sense that they weren't chosen for playable but instead as a Costume as a consolation prize. We can't absolutely say that for sure, but it's a reasonable conclusion. Spirits are no different from basic trophies, and Sakurai looked over all 1300 of them. He isn't going to deny someone over something so tiny. Nintendo nor him have a single reason to care due to an image being used. It is possible Geno and Mallow won't see other users because that's as far as Square-Enix allowed them and the negotiations won't go beyond that, of course. I mean, that happens. But if we're getting another SE character, that also means they can potentially get more content, and I don't necessarily mean Geno playable. It means we could get more SMRPG spirits, the Geno costume, and so on. I wouldn't take base game positions as highly damning for DLC content. Especially if they aren't an AT, which we at least know why they are unlikely to be playable.

Besides, there's tons of Nintendo characters that aren't AT's who are very much possible. Bandanna Waddle Dee, Elma, Dixie Kong, Cranky Kong, Funky Kong, Paper Mario, any Rhythm Heaven character, Sylux(who incidentally isn't a Spirit), Porky, Ninten(as a separate Echo or possibly an actual semi-clone style character). And that's off the top of my head. I mean, Fire Emblem is brimming with options, so is Pokemon... though I admit I really don't know enough Nintendo-owned series. Well, there's F-Zero too. The only ones I could see not having a strong possibility are F-Zero and Mother due to one franchise being dead while the other is on completely finished.

No, Mii Costumes do deconfirm characters. Look at all the Mii Costumes that were put in Smash Bros 4, none of the characters that were costumes first got in as DLC. If the costumes comes first then that means the character is out of the running for DLC. And just like Sakurai's reasoning for the Rex Mii Costumes, it was created so you can "feel" like you're playing as the character. If you need a costume to "feel" like you're playing as them then that means they're not getting in, why waste time making that when the character is DLC. This really applies to DLC Mii Costume.

And I stated that Spirits have an in-universe explanation to them. They're the actual characters that lost their bodies. Sakurai never stated that the trophies in past games are the real characters stuck petrified, but he did with Spirits. Plus the DLC was decided early on before the game launched, so with all this knowledge of who going to be a Fighter then wouldn't that mean that Sakurai would look through the 1300 Spirits and just start cutting them out? Like he plans on making Elma playable, so that means he would get rid of the Elma spirit and the rest of the Xenoblade X spirits since Spirits aren't that hard to create.

And as for the Nintendo side of things for DLC. Smash fans are tired of Fire Emblem characters being in Smash, I don't think the announcement of a Three Houses character all by itself would go that well. I also think a Gen 8 Pokemon would be a terrible idea. We know nothing about the final evolve forms of these new starters, and if the past couple of starters are anything to go by they can literally become anything. Plus Sword & Shield are coming out near the end of the year, which means the last DLC Fighter would be a Pokemon rep that barely anyone had time to know or get a feel for. Sakurai got lucky with Greninja, but split the base with Incineroar. Also, think it would be a great idea to have the final DLC character be an advertisement for a game that a bunch of people were going to get regardless?
As for the rest of the Nintendo characters you mention just feel like a step down from Joker. Seems like those should be the characters to announce first before you drop a bombshell like Joker.

There you go. Sakurai and Nintendo don't care what our fan rules are and are going to do whatever they want.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that some of these "fan rules" aren't true, and until proven other wise they just can't be dismiss all completely. If we don't see a single Spirit upgrade into a Fighter then that means that that "fan rule" was actually true.

 

[Deleted member]

No, Mii Costumes do deconfirm characters. Look at all the Mii Costumes that were put in Smash Bros 4, none of the characters that were costumes first got in as DLC. If the costumes comes first then that means the character is out of the running for DLC. And just like Sakurai's reasoning for the Rex Mii Costumes, it was created so you can "feel" like you're playing as the character. If you need a costume to "feel" like you're playing as them then that means they're not getting in, why waste time making that when the character is DLC. This really applies to DLC Mii Costume.

And I stated that Spirits have an in-universe explanation to them. They're the actual characters that lost their bodies. Sakurai never stated that the trophies in past games are the real characters stuck petrified, but he did with Spirits. Plus the DLC was decided early on before the game launched, so with all this knowledge of who going to be a Fighter then wouldn't that mean that Sakurai would look through the 1300 Spirits and just start cutting them out? Like he plans on making Elma playable, so that means he would get rid of the Elma spirit and the rest of the Xenoblade X spirits since Spirits aren't that hard to create.

And as for the Nintendo side of things for DLC. Smash fans are tired of Fire Emblem characters being in Smash, I don't think the announcement of a Three Houses character all by itself would go that well. I also think a Gen 8 Pokemon would be a terrible idea. We know nothing about the final evolve forms of these new starters, and if the past couple of starters are anything to go by they can literally become anything. Plus Sword & Shield are coming out near the end of the year, which means the last DLC Fighter would be a Pokemon rep that barely anyone had time to know or get a feel for. Sakurai got lucky with Greninja, but split the base with Incineroar. Also, think it would be a great idea to have the final DLC character be an advertisement for a game that a bunch of people were going to get regardless?
As for the rest of the Nintendo characters you mention just feel like a step down from Joker. Seems like those should be the characters to announce first before you drop a bombshell like Joker.

Well, once again, Sakurai also said that spirits are a replacement for trophies, and Mewtwo and Lucas were trophies in Smash 4. You're taking what Sakurai says about the spirits in the story mode too literally. He's explaining what happens in the story, not what happens for a character and their chances as DLC.

And I listed a myriad of potential Nintendo characters who could be added in my previous post (I edited it in).

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that some of these "fan rules" aren't true, and until proven other wise they just can't be dismiss all completely. If we don't see a single Spirit upgrade into a Fighter then that means that that "fan rule" was actually true.

I mean, yeah, but all it is is a possibility with no weight and entertained only by fans, so acting as if it holds weight at all is ridiculous.

 

[Ovaltine]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that some of these "fan rules" aren't true, and until proven other wise they just can't be dismiss all completely. If we don't see a single Spirit upgrade into a Fighter then that means that that "fan rule" was actually true.

The problem here is that you're arguing the spirits deconfirming fan rule as a fact. Yes, it is very obviously a possibility, and in terms of the Fighter's Pass, I'm of the opinion that it's reality. That being said, it is in no way 100%, no matter which way you slice it. Being of the opinion that it's a true fan rule is one thing; touting it as fact without any way of ascertaining that it's fact is another.

 

[The Anigriffin]

No, Mii Costumes do deconfirm characters. Look at all the Mii Costumes that were put in Smash Bros 4, none of the characters that were costumes first got in as DLC. If the costumes comes first then that means the character is out of the running for DLC. And just like Sakurai's reasoning for the Rex Mii Costumes, it was created so you can "feel" like you're playing as the character. If you need a costume to "feel" like you're playing as them then that means they're not getting in, why waste time making that when the character is DLC. This really applies to DLC Mii Costume.

And I stated that Spirits have an in-universe explanation to them. They're the actual characters that lost their bodies. Sakurai never stated that the trophies in past games are the real characters stuck petrified, but he did with Spirits. Plus the DLC was decided early on before the game launched, so with all this knowledge of who going to be a Fighter then wouldn't that mean that Sakurai would look through the 1300 Spirits and just start cutting them out? Like he plans on making Elma playable, so that means he would get rid of the Elma spirit and the rest of the Xenoblade X spirits since Spirits aren't that hard to create.

And as for the Nintendo side of things for DLC. Smash fans are tired of Fire Emblem characters being in Smash, I don't think the announcement of a Three Houses character all by itself would go that well. I also think a Gen 8 Pokemon would be a terrible idea. We know nothing about the final evolve forms of these new starters, and if the past couple of starters are anything to go by they can literally become anything. Plus Sword & Shield are coming out near the end of the year, which means the last DLC Fighter would be a Pokemon rep that barely anyone had time to know or get a feel for. Sakurai got lucky with Greninja, but split the base with Incineroar. Also, think it would be a great idea to have the final DLC character be an advertisement for a game that a bunch of people were going to get regardless?
As for the rest of the Nintendo characters you mention just feel like a step down from Joker. Seems like those should be the characters to announce first before you drop a bombshell like Joker.

Maybe it's a step down for you. Plenty of people didn't like Joker either, so maybe a "step down" character is something Nintendo wanted. Elma would be a "step down" to some Smash fans as well. One character can't please everyone.

Also why would they get rid of spirits when they never got rid of the trophies in Smash 4? Hell, Elma's spirit was a reward for completing a challenge already in game.

And again. An optional single player mode shouldn't dictate who gets to be playable in a primarily multiplayer game.

 

[wynn728]

Oh, I forgot Dixie had a hat... but that's it?

Okay, so leaving Dixie Out, there's still others, like Porky and Sylux. Though it depends if you are counting Spirits or not. If you aren't, then way more.

Sylux is just not going to happen. Barely anything is known about this character. Maybe after Metroid Prime 4 where they show that character off more, but as of now Sylux is so insignificant that I can't imagine a lot of people are going to be okay with paying $6 for him. Porky just doesn't seem that viable, like people are only wanting him because his Spirit isn't in the game, so that means he has a better shot than nearly every other Nintendo character. But even then it seems like there better choices than Porky.

Maybe it's a step down for you. Plenty of people didn't like Joker either, so maybe a "step down" character is something Nintendo wanted. Elma would be a "step down" to some Smash fans as well. One character can't please everyone.

Also why would they get rid of spirits when they never got rid of the trophies in Smash 4? Hell, Elma's spirit was a reward for completing a challenge already in game.

And again. An optional single player mode shouldn't dictate who gets to be playable in a primarily multiplayer game.

During the finalization of Ultimate when they got an idea of who's going to be a DLC fighter they would've gotten rid of Spirits so they can hold it back for the DLC Spirit Board.

 

[Deleted member]

Point of this pretty much is -

1. Don't say that anything is either confirmed or deconfirmed before it actually is.

2. Fan rules shouldn't be taken or presented as absolute fact.

 

[The Anigriffin]

During the finalization of Ultimate when they got an idea of who's going to be a DLC fighter they would've gotten rid of Spirits so they can hold it back for the DLC Spirit Board.

Just like how they got rid of Mewtwo's trophy before the launch of 4 right?

...Wait a minute.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

No, Mii Costumes do deconfirm characters. Look at all the Mii Costumes that were put in Smash Bros 4, none of the characters that were costumes first got in as DLC. If the costumes comes first then that means the character is out of the running for DLC. And just like Sakurai's reasoning for the Rex Mii Costumes, it was created so you can "feel" like you're playing as the character. If you need a costume to "feel" like you're playing as them then that means they're not getting in, why waste time making that when the character is DLC. This really applies to DLC Mii Costume.

Except that's not how it went. Many of the costumes we got were from Veterans, and most came out during DLC, with barely any actual characters in the main game, with the rest completely generic ones. They disconfirmed because those particular DLC ones were meant as consolation prizes, which others were just notable characters.. Smash Ultimate DLC is a 100% different story because we can't apply patterns anymore. Remember that Veterans were DLC too. But not anymore. Things have changed a lot. The only pattern whatsoever to hold true so far is both base games had zero 3rd party Mii costumes. That's it. We also had a ton of Mii costumes of playable characters added, even as DLC, meaning he wasn't really going for anything in particular besides picking very popular options, including some characters who couldn't become playable. There's no consistency to speak of.

And I stated that Spirits have an in-universe explanation to them. They're the actual characters that lost their bodies. Sakurai never stated that the trophies in past games are the real characters stuck petrified, but he did with Spirits. Plus the DLC was decided early on before the game launched, so with all this knowledge of who going to be a Fighter then wouldn't that mean that Sakurai would look through the 1300 Spirits and just start cutting them out? Like he plans on making Elma playable, so that means he would get rid of the Elma spirit and the rest of the Xenoblade X spirits since Spirits aren't that hard to create.

This is completely irrelevant to DLC. DLC characters don't even have a role in Adventure Mode either. He doesn't care as much as you think he does. It's a shrug thing. Besides that, we have multiple Mario spirits. It doesn't add up.

And as for the Nintendo side of things for DLC. Smash fans are tired of Fire Emblem characters being in Smash, I don't think the announcement of a Three Houses character all by itself would go that well. I also think a Gen 8 Pokemon would be a terrible idea. We know nothing about the final evolve forms of these new starters, and if the past couple of starters are anything to go by they can literally become anything. Plus Sword & Shield are coming out near the end of the year, which means the last DLC Fighter would be a Pokemon rep that barely anyone had time to know or get a feel for. Sakurai got lucky with Greninja, but split the base with Incineroar. Also, think it would be a great idea to have the final DLC character be an advertisement for a game that a bunch of people were going to get regardless?
As for the rest of the Nintendo characters you mention just feel like a step down from Joker. Seems like those should be the characters to announce first before you drop a bombshell like Joker.

I'll be blunt; none of this matters. Pokemon and Fire Emblem are actually extremely popular series. There's a reason why they got Chrom as an Echo, because he was an extremely popular pick. We got a Pokemon in base roster because Sakurai knew it would do very very well to have another one in. There's a reason why Pokemon had a slot set aside for it(and the only franchise to do so). It's massive and highly popular, so it's easy to prepare for it.

Fire Emblem is mostly lucky to get multiple characters beyond 4 due to clones/echoes. The complaints about Corrin ring very hollow when he's not even a clone nor heavily sword-based(he's more like a spear user most of the time, as well as summoning water and dragon attacks). The whole "anime swordsman" is pretty bad as a point too for that. Doesn't change that it's a massively strong ongoing franchise that could easily get another character if they can figure out a fun way to make them playable. Corrin wasn't nearly as divisive as people keep saying. The character sold rather well and was very popular to play as. It's just in Ultimate they got nerfed a lot so the viability went down, changing the ratio to play as others. Even the Echoes see more play than their base characters these days because they're overall more viable due to the lack of the mechanic, which doesn't weigh them down.

Sylux is just not going to happen. Barely anything is known about this character. Maybe after Metroid Prime 4 where they show that character off more, but as of now Sylux is so insignificant that I can't imagine a lot of people are going to be okay with paying $6 for him. Porky just doesn't seem that viable, like people are only wanting him because his Spirit isn't in the game, so that means he has a better shot than nearly every other Nintendo character. But even then it seems like there better choices than Porky.

...So no evidence either of these can't happen, then. You shouldn't talk in absolutes. You literally don't know they won't happen. You're acting like your opinion is fact. I get you don't think they're likely, and that's fine. Those are fair points. But you're saying them in a way that doesn't hold up. Both of those could easily be DLC characters because they're unique and viable additions. That's really all you need to be in. Not everything is for promotion, but Sylux could be a legitimate idea to tie-in to Metroid Prime 4, but not added because of that alone, just that the timing works. He being a very interesting character is all that's needed.

(For the record, I merged your various double posts. You're being bombarded by a lot of quoted messages, so I'm not worried about it. But we do prefer you edit in your messages instead of quoting again and replying in a different if possible. I know it's a little difficult with how many replies you've had to make lately. I've made this mistake lately too, after all).

 

[Ovaltine]

Point of this pretty much is -

1. Don't say that anything is either confirmed or deconfirmed before it actually is.

2. Fan rules shouldn't be taken or presented as absolute fact.

Pretty much, yeah. This whole spirit argument has been done and beaten into the ground so many times before, too. I'm just seeing the same stuff I've seen over and over with no end to the circular debate. It's soooo pointless right now, man. I'm beyond tired of it.

 

[Deleted member]

During the finalization of Ultimate when they got an idea of who's going to be a DLC fighter they would've gotten rid of Spirits so they can hold it back for the DLC Spirit Board.

Like we said, the spirits were decided on by a separate team, so the people deciding the DLC and the people deciding the spirits are not the same people.

And Mewtwo's trophy was not removed once he was added as DLC, and he was revealed for the game pre-release.

Pretty much, yeah. This whole spirit argument has been done and beaten into the ground so many times before, too. I'm just seeing the same stuff I've seen over and over with no end to the circular debate. It's soooo pointless right now, man. I'm beyond tired of it.

Exactly lmao. I'm as tired of it as I am for school/work because I've literally been arguing about this since the November 1st direct (though I did get a nice long break from it from January until...now, lol).

 

[3DSNinja]

Same with Lucas. heck, we don't even know if assists are deconfirms, because for at least 3 of the fan favorite assists there are easy workarounds. (Waluigi could be put in his Aces outfit, replace shadow with silver, replace shovel Knight with black knight)
Point is, Sakurai can do what ever the hell he wants, fan rules are less useful then leakers, because there is only precedent from 1 game that probably had its DLC cycle cut short by the Wii U's failure. so pkease, stop treating fan rules as the end all for character chances. aLso, aren't PLAYABLE CHARACTERS Mii costumes. plus, in a game where you can have Chrom beat himself up when they both look identixal, I don't think having multiple of the same character matters.

 

[GoodGrief741]

If we don't see a single Spirit upgrade into a Fighter then that means that that "fan rule" was actually true.

That's not valid logic.

Your reasoning is
If A then B
B
Therefore A

Where A is 'Spirits disconfirm' and B is 'no Spirit becomes playable'.

The thing is, that's faulty logic. That's because even if A leads to B and B does happen, that does not necessarily mean it was A that caused B. For example, replace A with 'it rains' and B with 'I am wet'. Your reasoning then goes: 'If it rains then I am wet. I am wet, therefore it rained.' That's terrible logic, because I could very well be wet because I just took a shower. The fallacy you are incurring is a common one, named converse error.

Keep in mind I also believe that we won't see Spirits upgraded to playable, and I also think any hypothetical Spirits for characters that would be made playable would have been removed, but it's important that you understand that there's no conclusive evidence for or against, and nothing is set in stone yet.

Edit:

Seems like those should be the characters to announce first before you drop a bombshell like Joker.

It took me a while to accept this and I think it's absolutely idiotic marketing, but Smash reveals have always started out strong and ended weak. I hope that changes, but if we're going by patterns it makes sense for 'the bombshell' to be announced first.

I mean, yeah, but all it is is a possibility with no weight and entertained only by fans, so acting as if it holds weight at all is ridiculous.

To be fair, it is a valid theory.

 

[Deleted member]

To be fair, it is a valid theory.

Eh, I don't really think so, but we all have our own opinions so

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Eh, I don't really think so, but we all have our own opinions so

To be fair, it’s as valid a theory as anything we perceive to be a certain way in Smash including Assist Trophies deconfirming characters and so on. None of it’s really all the based in fact and more based on trends and guesses. Especially considering we’re only a single DLC fighter in of the Pass with no idea on the future.



Also, to the earlier points people made about Brave. I agree, I think it’s completely foolish to assume much of anything from Brave’s existence beyond that another character existed in the data.

 

[MissingGlitch]

I wish I had more interest in Square Enix games. Outside of Geno and maybe Sora/2B/Chrono no other SE character would make me the slightest bit interested. Erdrick would just feel like a promotional pick to me to get the west finally interested in Dragon Quest since no other attempts have worked so far. Several Dragon Quest games coming out in the west during this smash DLC cycle kinda consolidates the fact for me. Smash seems like a sure fire way to get people interested in your brand.

 

[osby]

I wish I had more interest in Square Enix games. Outside of Geno and maybe Sora/2B/Chrono no other SE character would make me the slightest bit interested. Erdrick would just come off as a shill pick to me to get the west finally interested in Dragon Quest since no other attempts have worked so far. Several Dragon Quest games coming out in the west during this smash DLC cycle kinda consolidates the fact for me. Smash seems like a sure fire way to get people interested in your brand.

I disagree. Just because a character is crazy popular in one region, doesn't make them promotional in other region.

It's like saying Metroid characters or Little Mac were shill picks to make Japan interested in their games.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Not sure if I agree with this. Just because a character is crazy popular in one region, doesn't make them promotional in other region.

It's like saying Metroid characters or Little Mac were shill picks to make Japan interested in their games.

I really tried to word it in a way to come off as a personal opinion instead of a fact. Even tried changing some words around to make it sound not so harsh. But you quoted me before I finalized the changes :v

I really can't explain Little Mac because they seem to have no interest in making another Punch-Out since the Wii game (shame really). Which might explain why we still only have the one character and stage (A playable Doc would be great). But the amount of love that the Metroid series got in Ultimate might correlate with the plans for Metroid they have been laying out. Federation Force, The Samus Returns remake, and the announcement of a new game in the Prime series could be an attempt to rise interest in the brand again since it has been on hiatus for quite some time now.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I disagree. Just because a character is crazy popular in one region, doesn't make them promotional in other region.

It's like saying Metroid characters or Little Mac were shill picks to make Japan interested in their games.

To be fair, it's not like Little Mac is still getting games for them to shill to begin with.

 

[osby]

To be fair, it's not like Little Mac is still getting games for them to shill to begin with.

To be fair, it's not like Erdrick is the hero of the last Dragon Quest game and Luminary would be the one to go if they really want to shill the series.

 

[Sovereign Trinity]

Well seeing how the last four DLC characters are going to be third party and have already been decided before hand, I'm positive that they decided that those 1300 characters don't have a future in Ultimate.

No, Mii Costumes do deconfirm characters.

Majority of the Nintendo characters people have been wanting are deconfirmed by Assist Trophies and Mii Costumes.

Like he plans on making Elma playable, so that means he would get rid of the Elma spirit and the rest of the Xenoblade X spirits since Spirits aren't that hard to create.

How do you know this? lol

I think it's clear nobody knows who the DLC is, nor do we know if spirits disconfirm characters. Remember that these are fan-made rules, they aren't official. As far as we know, only Assist Trophies disconfirm, but we could be wrong and maybe AT's don't disconfirm. We got no clue if Mii Costumes disconfirm either, but from my perspective, I say they do... HOWEVER, I could be wrong because nobody was expecting trophies to have a chance at becoming a DLC character, which happened in Smash 3DS/Wii U. Spirits are the trophies of Ultimate, and this is Sakurai we're talking about! Anything could happen.

 

[Ze Diglett]

To be fair, it's not like Erdrick is the hero of the last Dragon Quest game and Luminary would be the one to go if they really want to shill the series.

Yes, but the fact of the matter is that Dragon Quest as a series is still getting games to be "shilled", so to speak. Punch-Out isn't. It's not a straight equivalence; you can't exactly shill a series that isn't getting games.

 

[Ayumi Tachibana]

DQ developers are outright saying that they want more western recognition so any DQ rep would be shill pick imo. And I don't dislike this move because I think it's a good opportunity to test out the "smash effect".

 

[ForsakenM]

I doubt they had a separate team that made the Spirits battles and had no idea on who would be DLC. Because if that was the case then that means that team went to contact Square Enix to get the rights to use Geno and Mallow without Sakurai's knowledge. Seems like Sakurai would give a look over on what Spirits are being made before they're finalized.

Also making Spirits aren't difficult. They just select the character that closely resembles the Spirit, choose a stage, and apply a certain difficulty. All the hard work is already done with programing the CPU for battles.

This is more proof that you are talking out your butt uninformed on the topic at hand (mods say I gotta be less sassy now).

First off, it has been confirmed in interviews that a separate team that didn't work on anything BUT Spirits existed. Secondly, yes, Sakurai came in periodically to look at their choices and make some suggestions but BY HIS OWN ADMISSION he was not very involved with the process.

This and you are uninformed on Spirit Battles. In addition to difficulty, stage choice and character choice to represent the Spirit, there are also:

• Stage Modifiers (Lava, Poison, Sticky)
• Battlefield Modifiers (Heavy Winds)
• Item Modifiers (Choosing which items spawn, when they spawn, whether characters start with them or not)
• Character Modifiers (Steel, Big, Tiny, More or Less Damage, More or Less Defense)
• Playstyle Modifiers (Favoring certain moves, prioritizing items, whether they are more aggressive or passive)
• Additional Characters (How many there are, when they appear, whether they are required to be beaten or not)
• Event Modifiers (Random Events, frequency of changes, who do and don't apply to)
• Battle Types (Stock, Timed, Stamina)

There are likely more I have missed, and you know what the best part is? I HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED ANY SPIRIT MODES! This means I got all this information from basic research, so you've done nothing but played yourself here and...

No it's not, fan rules are not keeping these characters out from being playable. You think Sakurai & Nintendo are looking at this and just say "Dang it, we were going to make this character that was a Spirit/Assist/Mii Costume but these fans are saying it deconfirms them. I guess we'll just drop all the our plans because these fans created the rules for our series."

They don't care what our fan rules are. They are not holding anything back. Sakurai and Nintendo are going to do whatever the hell they want regardless of what the fans think will happen.

And then you defeated your own argument with a post. You can't make this up.

Fine, name a Nintendo character that still available to become a Fighter that currently isn't an Assist Trophy or a Mii Costume.
Right now our deconfirm Nintendo characters are Krystal, Isaac, Midna, Ashley, Takamaru, Waluigi, the entire ARMS series, Dillon, Lyn, Skull Kid, Chibi Robi, Custom Robo, Dixie Kong, Rex & Pyra, Saki, and Viridi.

And THEN you proceed to challenge someone who's defeated your arguments? Okay, I'll bite.

Any popular/Starter Pokemon (Sword/Shield starter, Lycanroc), any popular/Main Fire Emblem character (Three Houses character, popular lance or axe wielder), Linkle or another Hyrule Warriors exclusive character, Impa, Elma, exclusive Breath of the Wild character, Bandanna Waddle Dee, Mathew or another popular/Main character from Golden Sun, Birdo, Paper Mario, Sylux or another important character from Metroid Prime 4, Masked Man, Claus, Ninten, Porky, Dixie Kong/Tiny Kong, Kiddie Kong, Funky Kong, Lanky Kong, Chunky Kong, Cranky Kong, Donkey Kong Jr, Magolor, Kamek, Poochy, Mushashi from Sushi Striker, a character from Town (the new RPG from GameFreak), any number of important/main characters from Xenoblade games before Xenoblade Chronicles 2, Professor E. Gadd, Mike Jones from Star Tropics, Wonder Red or any other popular character from Wonderful 101, Cooking Mama, Style Savvy, Captain Toad, Toadette, Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, Choir Boys or Karate Joe or anyone else from Rhythm Heaven, King Hippo or Glass Joe or any other popular Punch Out character...need I go on?

Of course, this is outside projects we don't know of or have little knowledge of.

EDIT: Just realized Town isn't Nintendo, it would be second party like . Any others I mentioned in that list I apologize, I did my best to research this.

 

[The Anigriffin]

How do you know this? lol

I think it's clear nobody knows who the DLC is, nor do we know if spirits disconfirm characters. Remember that these are fan-made rules, they aren't official. As far as we know, only Assist Trophies disconfirm, but we could be wrong and maybe AT's don't disconfirm. We got no clue if Mii Costumes disconfirm either, but from my perspective, I say they do... HOWEVER, I could be wrong because nobody was expecting trophies to have a chance at becoming a DLC character, which happened in Smash 3DS/Wii U. Spirits are the trophies of Ultimate, and this is Sakurai we're talking about! Anything could happen.

Exactly. Custom moves didn’t even stop characters from coming as dlc. Why should a png file automatically stop anyone?

 

[Firox]

Brave is hardly a dead ringer for a Dragon Quest character. It's just a legitimate speculative point. The only reason people are believing it as ironclad is the leakers, which only very few had any real information of him being in(Verge, PolarPanda, Tansut) via rumors they heard. Most leakers actually came to the same assumption, instead of relying on actual information from insiders who told them. So it's a great theory, but nothing more than that.

We still don't know why Jack is related to Joker at all. The actual codenames for the other Persona 5 characters all over the place, making it even worse. The best we can guess is it actually has some remote relation to the character that makes some sense. Jack could've been Jack Frost, Playing Cards(with Tarot cards are actually a type of playing card when it came to the evolution that created them, so they're definitely related), or just his Jack of all Trades design. If it's the last one, Brave referring to Yuusha makes sense. But we can't even say that. We don't know why Arsene is codenamed Doyle either. Hell, the most I remember of the word Doyle (besides Doylist) is that it was a brand of playing cards, but I can't even find real information on that to confirm it. And I don't know the other code names either. That said, if playing cards are a thing, we have something tangible to go off of to figure out who Brave is. With 3 possibilities for Jack, all very reasonable for a codename, we have a lot of possibilities for Brave. The only logical thing to go with right now is "it isn't just a very basic description that anyone could have", like how an adventurer is brave. It'd be more obvious like how Agumon's crest is literally Courage, or how Yuri Lowell is related to a group called Brave, or as noted, Yuusha being Brave translated, the mainly class of the DQ Hero. All 3 are reasonable possibilities right now.

I wouldn't use the idea that Brave must be Yuusha as strong evidence, as we still lack better information than that. Maybe if we had a clear idea of how Jack related to Joker, we might have something. But we just plain don't.

To your point, I think the reason Joker's codename was "Jack" is due the playing cards reference. In P5, they named him Joker because he was "their wild card when it came to fighting strength" due to his ability to use multiple personas. A "Jack" is another face card like "King" or "Queen". That's the only connection I can see. That said, "Brave" could really be just about anyone. All we can do is speculate until Nintendo blesses us with another micro-nugget of information.

 

[MattX20]

Whoa, I missed a big discussion while I slept. But yeah, codenames are generally meant to keep the identity of the character hidden so "Brave" would be a pretty poor codename choice if they were trying to hide a DQ character like Erdrick.