I'm a little tired so apologies if my response doesn't correspond with the argument properly.
...Like most Pokemon, yeah.
fix'd that for ya.
Actually, multiplies of legendaries exist, especially minor ones. So not really. Only very special ones. Ironically Mewtwo doesn't even have that going for it. It's just a case of "only one exists" at best. But to pretend it has anything special to it within the games is silly. It's not treated as anything more important than your average Rattata. The anime and manga, and some spin-off games actually make you care about its existence. In a twist, Lugia are supposed to have multiples of, yet it's supposed to have importance to the lore. They're extremely inconsistent about how important they are. But in the end, they all play their role, whether it's a generic mook or a bit more in the story. While still have the same role that all of the enemy mooks share, being catchable..
wut? Dude, Pokemon like Mewtwo, Deoxys or Celebi are automatically special because there, oh gosh... what's the word?
Legendary.
[insert Barney meme here]
Have you ever played Pokemon? Like, ever? Asking for a friend. To say that Mewtwo is not treated as anything more important than a Rattata is incredibly ignorant. Did you know that Pokemon have different stats? And did you know that Legendary Pokemon have higher stats than say a Rattata? And did you know that most Legendary Pokemon don't have evolutions because they're already overpowered monsters? They're different than you're "average mooks" because they have higher stats, they're stronger, they have a deeper relation to the lore of whatever region they came from and they're harder to catch and most of the time you can only catch one per game.
And you keep bringing up the movies and the mangas. That's irrelevent. We're talking about video games, not movies and manga that have no relationship to the canon of the games. At all so of course there's going to be some inconsistency.
The problem is you're acting like this doesn't make them a surprise addition. That's their role. They were all chosen for different reasons, but are still a surprise character. PP is intentionally put into that category. Absolutely none of those characters were easily(or as is) seen coming.
Of course they are surprise additions. I'm not refuting that. I'm just pointing out that they are for different reasons. They're roles for getting in Smash could be the same by just falling under the WTF category but you're ignoring my point that they have significant roles in their games when bringing up WFT, DH or ROB which solidifies the idea of them being a good representative to their respective series that meant something to Nintendo's history and/or offered some silly gimmick associated with their franchises they appeared in.
Enemy mooks are supporting roles as is, if you want to get into the nitty-gritty of it. They support the game's genre by giving a specific challenge to the player. That's a pretty important role in the end.
Doesn't mean they offer the same challenge. PP is just something in the way. The Koopalings were bosses that required a bit more time and strategy to beat. Granted, not much strategy but a lot more than just sitting there and waiting for them to slide back down the pipe. They are not the same because they are characters that have a role. They are different characters with
different roles. Some roles with more importance than others. It's not rocket appliances here, dude.
So yes, I'd absolutely put them in the same role importance as ones like Falco. Although you actually could remove Falco and Star Fox would play pretty much the same. Depending which game. The gameplay is still about shooting down enemy ships/etc. If you remove those enemy ships, you completely change the game. If you remove Falco, you might remove literally one path at best. He really doesn't play much of a role in every Star Fox game as you'd think. He's barely there in Star Fox 64, which is kind of an issue with the game. Most of them aren't that important overall.
I can agree with you here. However, he plays a bigger role in Star Fox than Piranha Plant does in Mario. It's ridiculous to say otherwise.
Wolf does a lot more. Hell, Slippy does too, since he matters to that game's particular story by creating your vehicles. Petty and Falco don't do anything major beyond being general support. There's a little bit with Falco talking to some other characters, but those aren't extremely important characters either. They're just side options if you want to get 100% completion. So yeah, pretty much like your enemy mooks. Who you face in particular are a side option in many cases. They have a simple but important role in the story, an adversary to face along the way. Without that, you have a really boring story. So they're pretty important in that regard. Even for games that have a joke of a story, like Mario 1.
You're really giving PP a lot more credit than it deserves. You could say that Falco offers little to the plot of the games, which is true but he is a character that still offers something because he has dialogue, a purpose and personality. PP has a lot less significant purpose and personalty than Fox and Falco.
They're all challenges to overcome. Same difference.
No. Not same difference. Again, hey don't offer the same challenges. Some are easier than others and PP's is one of the easiest challenges ever.
Sit there and wait for it to disappear. Or throw a fireball at it. Just because they offer challenges doesn't mean the challenges are the same.
It doesn't matter how much dialogue an enemy has. They're no less an adversary for the protagonist. It's the same overall role. Mario doesn't even have a single real boss to fight in the updated(and canon) version of Super Mario Bros. 1. All the rest are generic mooks pretending to be Bowser with only the real one as the end of the game. Again, you act like the general enemies you face aren't important to the plot.
They're not as important as Bowser. That's what I'm saying. That's why Bowser got into Smash and a Goomba did not. I'm not gonna say mooks are not important, they're just not as important.
Barely.
How do you think Mario becomes stronger to face more foes? By training against smaller ones. The journey is extremely important to every story. Everything they face along the way makes them stronger. They're a very important role in actually developing a character. If the only thing Mario had to face was literally the holes and just Bowser at 8-4, he wouldn't even be considered someone who actually has accomplished much of anything. So basically, what he'd really be doing if you removed the important roles of enemy mooks to face is... walking and jumping alone with absolutely zero challenges, luckily beat the final boss, and more or less makes you wonder why Peach didn't walk home herself. Not like there was a challenge for the player, right? Cause that's what it's like without the key role of having other generic enemies to face. So yeah, when I say their role is important, it's for a good reason. It keeps the story from being entirely bland. But hey, if you think removing mooks(which are important to the story) would somehow magically make the game feel the same, sure. But I can guarantee it would make pretty much every game suck if there was no real challenge to overcome. It's why they always matter.
I thought you said Mario didn't really have a story. ¯\_(o_O)_/¯
This isn't a JRPG where you gain experience or a heartfelt boxing movie. You can run past the little ******** and just race to the end. PP is not that big of a deal dude. He's a stock enemy. Something you can kill off quick. Something so insignificant and irrelevant that he could be replaced with something else and not many people would care. Replace Falco and you'd have a lot of disappointed fans of that character. Replace a Piranha Plant and barely anyone would bat an eye. Of course I'm sure you'd have some upset people but not nearly as much as these other characters you're comparing PP too.
I'll concede to the idea that PP is important if it helps gets my point across, but it's very very
very little compared to the other characters we have mentioned.
I'm talking about in Smash. Pokemon Trainer, like every Pokemon(bar Greninja, actually), they're all completely generic. PP actually has more personality than some characters too. Though to be fair, many of them were hard to given personality too(like R.O.B.).
We're discussing the importance the characters have to their respective series. Not the importance they have to Smash. We're talking about why PT got in and should be compared to why PP got in and should be. PT is a more important character to the Pokemon franchise than PP is to Mario.
Sure I can. They're all absolutely challenges to overcome and make the hero stronger. It doesn't matter how strong the enemy is at all for that. They're all important. How do you think Mario becomes strong enough to face any boss? He needs to face someone weaker. It's a matter of scale. Bowser is stronger than the Koopalings and the final boss because he's the most powerful. The general enemy mooks are far weaker, but still an important adversary for Mario to overcome. He doesn't get to Bowser and win without becoming stronger. What kind of bad story design is that? Cause as I said before, if you don't have the enemy mooks, you have zero real challenge for the player till the very end. Remember, there is nothing but enemy mooks in Super Mario Bros. 1's story. The actual official version of it has nothing but that bar Bowser himself. That means without the important role the mooks have, he will never have a real challenge to face(at best, what, jumping skills?) beyond the final boss. It's why there's smaller things to face. Which is absolutely important in making someone stronger.
Again, you're giving PP a lot more credit than he deserves. He's really not that cool or interesting, which is why he was relegated to being a generic basic enemy. Stop conflating the importance of generic enemies to major enemies that are bosses because that's a really silly stance to take. PP, Goombas and Koopas hold very little importance to story or plot than the Koopalings or Bowser because they're mooks.
Wild Pokemon are definitely enemies to face. And befriend. They actually exist because they want to be challenged by you. They're literally challenging you to catch them. It's kind of part of the lore. And that's still what mooks are, a challenge to the player. So yes, they are just a different kind of mook. It's not like the term Mook can't be applied to different characters yet have distinct roles.
Agree to disagree. If you want to think that random innocent Pokemon that you can chose to fight, catch or flee from than that's your choice man. The mooks imo are the villainous team grunts. Pokemon being mooks is irrelevant to the conversation anyways. I'm more interested in discussing the importance of PP.
No it does not. Read. It. Again...
'2
: an outstanding or highly regarded performer within a field
: star'
Piranha plant was not this prior to his Smash inclusion. Please read more carefully next time.
A member of a major franchise. All-Stars in Smash actually is about recognizability, with the way it gathers characters.
Excuse me, 'actually is about recognizability'? Do you have a source for that? Because it feels like you're deliberately creating a definition for how the term all-stars is considered in Smash.
How do you think they're "outstanding"? It ain't a performance in a game. These are videos games here. What you're looking at is more of a sports thing. In a video game, to be an all-star, you need to be well known enough. You don't need to even have the biggest role ever(though PP does co-star with quite a few for a pretty key role in how the game is). You stand out by being recognizable. Obviously Sakurai doesn't just grab anybody but All-Stars(again, a lot of characters are not that recognizable to most. In fact, PP is more recognizable than R.O.B. and Mr. Game & Watch were, due to the former only known during a small era, and the latter being in way less games. Wii Fit Trainer is more up there in being known, but not that much, and then you have Duck Hunt, who is definitely an All-Star by all means. PP is absolutely an All-Star. Is too well known and stands out as one of the most iconic mooks in the Mario series, along with Goomba and Koopa Troopa, all huge stand outs. People know who they are, after all).
Most of the characters you see on the Smash Roster holds an outstanding or highly regarded performance in the series that they are representing (like the second definition of all-stars states). I've explained why ROB, DH and WFT are different but you keep ignoring those points and I'm done repeating myself. One being recognizable is not the same as being a significant part to the series you are from. You stand out by being recognizable, sure but that's not the only reason. Characters stand out by being something significant, standing for something, and offering an importance that other characters that exist in the series may not. PP may be an all star by your definition which is clearly fueled by some bias, but before he got in, calling him an all-star by the actual definition in the English dictionary is incredibly disingenuous and wrong.
This is not remotely true at all. Not when it's highly recognizable. All-Star status has nothing to do with Smash requests in itself. They're separate things.
recognizable =/= importance
Again, when using the actual definition of all-star, being recognizable is irrelevant. It all has to do with the importance and the influence you have to offer. You might as well say that Isaac has less importance
in general than PP because Isaac is not as recognizable in regards to the term all-star. I literally posted the definition of the word and you're still not getting it. It's not rocket appliances, guys.
Geno is not an All-Star because he doesn't stand out in the Mario franchise to the general public. Few knew of him to begin with. So no, his good role in that game is not enough. He doesn't have the exposure to be heavily cared about. He's getting more recognizable, but I wouldn't dare to give him that status. Which is all the more reason I still think he earned his spot in Smash. He's no All-Star, but who gives a rat's *** about that? It's a gaming character crossover. Being a gaming character is the actual requirement to get into Smash. Not some poor idea that you need elite status or a major role in a game to do so. It clearly is not important at all. Nor wanted. Geno is a great idea to add because the fans and Sakurai want him. And the only thing that really matters in the end. It's a game full of many all-stars, and many non-playable ones where you fight as your favorite character. And that's what's really important, having a character that is fun to play.
He stands out in the game though. He's an all-star in SMRPG based on the definition of the term. He was one of the main party characters for crying out loud. Not so much to the franchise, sure but we all know the obvious reasons why. Are you saying though that he's less important to the series because he's showed up in one game and less recognizable? Blasphemy.
I am ignoring that evidence because that. Does. Not. Matter. Mr. Game & Watch was a surprise character. PP is a surprise character. That is their role in Smash. No more, no less. That was the intention in adding them. He considered characters for different reasons. You've only given good reason to consider them. And Geno was not considered out of anything but fan demand, actually. Every single time he was spoken of, Sakurai talked about how high he scored on polls, that he wanted him in, and that fans wanted him in. So yeah, it has nothing to do with some game status. It's just a popular character. Not all characters who are popular will get in. In fact, if it was solely popular characters. we would not have Mr. Game & Watch to begin with. Cause he was created for Smash, for more importantly, he was considered due to the gaming history as you said, but his main reason for addition is "surprise character". Just like R.O.B. and others
It. Totally. Matters. Because their roles in Smash is not the same as their roles in the series they come from. Being a surprise character is not a good stand alone excuse to make a character a playable fighter. Nor is being a surprise character the stand alone reason why G&W, WFT, DH and ROB got in. There's more to those guys than just being wtf material as I have explained before because they mean something to the series they came from. Those guys are obscure additions that make sense. PP is a generic Mario enemy that offers little importance to its series.
Ganon and Ganondorf are different characters to begin with. Ganon is not playable in Smash. His humanoid form is. They have very different abilities, at most sharing the usage of a sword, and only sometimes. Ganondorf is definitely not recognizable in the same way Pig Ganon is. One's the original main antagonist. The other is a character who replaced Agnahim and eventually evolved into being someone unique, but sharing essentially the same role, a wizard who is connected to Ganon.
lol wut? The hell you talking about?
Okay, so it sounds like you've never played a Pokemon game. Have you never played a Zelda game either? Because, they're the ****ing same. Did you know that Ganondorf can turn into Ganon? Crazy eh. When I said they're the same, I literally meant it. I didn't even imply anything related to Smash when I say that. Ganon is Ganondorf. They look different but they're the same entity.
Not really. It would make my argument pointless. I do not view Smash as some combination of All-Stars. I view it like it actually is; a crossover of various video game characters, with some all-stars among the mix. If a character isn't recognizable to the general public... they ain't an all-star.
I'm just going by the literal definition of the term, and that tells me you are wrong.
They need to stand out to them too. How on earth do you expect them to matter otherwise? The characters in the first game were all recognizable to the public at the time. That changed once Melee hit, full of characters that few recognized. When people say we're still missing a few All-Stars, they do actually mean characters even the public generally knows. Dixie Kong, Toad, guys who actually are recognizable. While tons of Mooks are All-Stars by all means(since again, your definition is more applying to Sports, not video games), people never really believed generic mooks would get in, despite Pokemon proving time and time again it's hard an issue. Despite wanting ones like Toad who most don't even know is a specific character and a generic race. Or the fact that Yoshi isn't particularly special compared to his race(unlike Toad, which even had a different name), being pretty much identical to the rest of the species to begin with.
Regardless if the definition applies to sports, it can apply to video games. Mario and Mario 64 for example:
'2
: an outstanding or highly regarded performer within a field
: star'
Outstanding highly regarded performer can be the same as being the protagonist in a sense. With field being either the game it self or the environment its set it. That's how I've always seen it but it's not really clear because, again, it's subjective.
Uhhh....
Yeah, right. The games have almost zero story or lore.
You said this... This is a quote from you... Is it 'almost' or is it 'there is no almost'? Make up your mind.
They have practically nothing to note. It's not designed to be story-driven. That's why every role matters so much more than other games. Because without those small roles, the game has barely anything worth noting. I wouldn't even say it has enough of a story where the roles are very big at all.
Just because something isn't story-driven doesn't mean there's no story. And even if there's zero story at all, PP's relevance is still miniscule compared to Mario's, Peach's, Bowsers' or the Koopalings.
Actually, there's an implication and even some stories go with the blocks being transformed Toads. Even then, yeah, I'd say they're characters that play an important role in helping the player overcomes many adversaries. So another set of important roles too. Minor roles are still important to a story, you know. In fact, you seem to keep using the term important wrong. Important just means without that role, the story would fall flat. What you're looking for is the term "minor", which means the role is small, but doesn't lack importance. It's a lot more accurate than what you're saying.
I was trolling when I mentioned the blocks... didn't think you'd take the bait but k.
And minor is a good word to use. I can agree to that but even using the term 'minor role' still implies it holds less importance than the major roles. Things can be more important than other things and you're not understanding that. PP is not as important as Bowser. That's a fact. Do I have to post the definition of 'important' as well?
Geno isn't an All-Star in the Mario series. He's a single character in an obscure game. I love the character and all, but there's no point in pretending the game is that well known nor is Geno that recognizability. I don't say this to bash the guy either, of course. It's just being realistic. He hasn't earned the status of All-Star at all.
recognizability =/= importance.
Anyone that's important has the potential to be an all-star depending on the value they have to offer. Anyone that's recognizable doesn't.
PP has. People know who it is. It stands out within the series. It's the main plant guy. It has tons of species variants and tons of abilities. It actually does have some personality too. All-Star status has nothing to do with having tons of dialogue or purpose within a story. You don't need to have tons of personality. What they need is that people know who they are. They can pretend to remotely stand out in theory, but if a minority know who they are, what exactly makes them worth noting to the public enough to gain an All-Star Status. Even Marth was way more known than Geno, and Geno was released in more regions at the time. Which is saying something. Recognizability is key to the biggest degree possible. They have to be known first and foremost. Without that, they cannot stand out where it matters. All-Star, as the term, has nothing to do with "being important to a story in itself". That's great. But doesn't cut it alone. That just might makes it possible for them to become this. But then again, since any character who plays a role in a story holds importance to some degree, they all can potentially become one. And I can definitely say that PP is absolutely an All-Star. To pretend it isn't is just silly at this point. It's not a requested All-Star. That's the difference between it and others like Shadow. Unfortunately, Isaac is not one who is much of an All-Star these days either. Golden Sun is very niche, unfortunately. Tons of requests, but doesn't stand out among other rpg's for a good amount of the public. Heck, Banjo & Kazooie had more general All-Star status back then, standing out heavily(they lost a lot of it these days, but hopefully will build it up again at some point. I'm sure if they got in Smash, they'll be notable enough to the public to re-earn the title).
Hitler is recognizable. Does that make him an all-star? Again, asking for a friend.
If I were to properly refute this paragraph, I'd be repeating myself. I think I got the main points across above. Also, I hate that we're on the topic of all-stars because I've had Smash Mouth stuck in my head for a while now.
There, they can get rid of the completely shoehorned in Baby Daisy and Baby Rosalina with just this one alone. At least the character has some merit to being added. Though I guess at this point, anything goes. I mean, sure, Metal Peach appeared well before Mario Kart... but only in a spin-off as well. Baby Daisy did at that point too, so cutting her for the sake of it is hypocritical at this point. I just hope the roster keeps it at best to metal clones, baby clones, has no more really shoehorned in ones like Cat Peach(seriously, that was just ridiculous when you had someone like Diddy Kong right. Freaking. There.) and adds some other spin-off guys. Like, well, Geno. Also, regular Piranha Plant as well. Petey's not enough. They're pretty darn different. The fact Dr. Mario has never appeared yet(who would've been way better than Tanooki Mario) is weird too.
