Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Datboigeno]

Here is a question. Was SMRPG the first ever JRPG you’ve played and/or the game that introduced you to the JRPG genre? I would imagine people at the time of release who were big into Mario but not too big into the JRPG genre buying or taking interest in the game because it featured Mario characters.

I never really thought of it that way but actually yeah at 6 I’m pretty sure all my other snes titles were platformers with a couple fighting games and NBA Jam thrown in so it would have been my first. Maybe that’s part of the reason I like it so much,

 

[BoringName]

Here is a question. Was SMRPG the first ever JRPG you’ve played and/or the game that introduced you to the JRPG genre? I would imagine people at the time of release who were big into Mario but not too big into the JRPG genre buying or taking interest in the game because it featured Mario characters.

I’m a lot younger than most of the geno fanbase, so my first JRPG was actually Pokémon white. Other than that I’ve really only played other Pokémon games and SMRPG

 

[Sovereign Trinity]

Here is a question. Was SMRPG the first ever JRPG you’ve played and/or the game that introduced you to the JRPG genre? I would imagine people at the time of release who were big into Mario but not too big into the JRPG genre buying or taking interest in the game because it featured Mario characters.

My first JRPG was Superstar Saga.

Now what's the best JRPG game I've played? Oh yeah... Super Mario-O RPG! It is the only one just for me! <3

 

[Firox]

I’m a lot younger than most of the geno fanbase, so my first JRPG was actually Pokémon white. Other than that I’ve really only played other Pokémon games and SMRPG

Great. Now I feel old. I remember playing SMRPG when it first came out on the SNES. Can you believe that dinosaur of a cartridge cost me $70? And that was back in 1996!

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

My first JRPG was Final Fantasy IV, back when it was known as II. And it disheartens me that a new generation of gamers won't get to play it...Because Square does jack**** in regards to new re-releases for it right now.

Best one, so far it's a toss-up between SMRPG and Kingdom Hearts II.

 

[Deleted member]

Since his sources said Sora is automatically out and Geno is not to be taken seriously, and if Erdrick and the rest are leakbait, I have a feeling it just seems like these two are frontrunners up for DLC. I can see both of them being DLC characters, and I think it's miles better than just Erdrick because Geno and Sora are the most requested Square characters at the moment; you'd be pleasing more fans since both of their fanbases are worldwide and not in just one place. I don't think it's the saying of "If you want Geno, pick another character to be with him", but if Sora and Geno are coming, I believe it's because Sakurai knows it doesn't hurt to try and ask for another character, and while Sakurai and Nintendo are already working out the licensing with Geno, Sakurai probably thought to himself: "While I'm at it, let's try and get Sora." Nomura already has the authority of Sora, and Disney said they'd be okay with it; not to mention that the KH composer is Yoko Shimomura, Super Mario RPG's composer, so getting some KH content in Smash is going to be difficult because of Disney, but it's miles easier than getting DQ content in Smash.

I mean, Joker, Geno, Banjo, a first-party, and Sora would be and sound like an amazing DLC lineup. Anybody agree with me?

I would be a little dissapointed by the lack of First Party newcomers outside, but Banjo and Geno are Nintendo characters in the hearts of many (including mine) plus their cartoony aesthetic and style is far more appealing than most of Smash 4's newcomers and Joker. They would alone satisfy me after the let down that were Joker and Piranha Plant in my eyes.

Sora is a little more complicated for me though. Also please let the First Party Newcomer be from any franchise that's not Fire Emblem.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Sora is a little more complicated for me though. Also please let the First Party Newcomer be from any franchise that's not Fire Emblem.

Wish granted, it'll be from Pokémon instead.

In all seriousness though, I'd say there's at least an 85% chance there will be a Gen 8 Pokémon in there somewhere, I don't think they'd want to wait until a second DLC wave gets approved for that.

 

[Firox]

Wish granted, it'll be from Pokémon instead.

In all seriousness though, I'd say there's at least an 85% chance there will be a Gen 8 Pokémon in there somewhere, I don't think they'd want to wait until a second DLC wave gets approved for that.

As much as I HATE to admit it, I think you're 100% on the money. Sakurai said that the Nintendo execs were choosing the five, so it's pretty much guaranteed that whatever they pick, it'll be with a commercial goal in mind. Sadly, I feel that's why there is an incredibly high chance we'll see Erdrick, a Gen 8 Pokemon, and another FE rep just for the sake of selling the upcoming games. It's greedy and stupid, I know, but it's definitely something they'd do. Look at Cloud, Corrin and Bayonetta. All of them were strategically placed for a reason. There isn't much reason to think they wouldn't do it again. My only hope is that they realize the sell power of making SMRPG 2 and that if Geno gets in, he would be the herald of its announcement.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Eh...are we even sure Erdrick is even in there at all? Besides hearsay (which is starting to look like Grinch 2.0), even Enix knows that people care more about the co-stars/Slime.

Meanwhile, Three Houses makes adding a new FE character complicated when Teacher doesn't seem to have anything special going for him to justify being added as unique, so far, as opposed to his students. Chrom is already stretching the limits as to what can be done with swordsmen that lack powers.

And let's recall that it's Sakurai himself who picked Cloud, instead of Lightning or whomever the hot topic was at the moment. FF7 didn't remotely get anywhere near a Nintendo system until a few years later.

The thing that matters is whether Sakurai thinks a suggested character can work, if not, they'll be set aside.

 

[Firox]

Eh...are we even sure Erdrick is even in there at all? Besides hearsay (which is starting to look like Grinch 2.0), even Enix knows that people care more about the co-stars/Slime.

Meanwhile, Three Houses makes adding a new FE character complicated when Teacher doesn't seem to have anything special going for him to justify being added as unique, so far, as opposed to his students. Chrom is already stretching the limits as to what can be done with swordsmen that lack powers.

And let's recall that it's Sakurai himself who picked Cloud, instead of Lightning or whomever the hot topic was at the moment. FF7 didn't remotely get anywhere near a Nintendo system until a few years later.

The thing that matters is whether Sakurai thinks a suggested character can work, if not, they'll be set aside.

I wouldn't put too much faith in Sakurai. The last time we thought we had him nailed down, he gave us a potted plant...

 

[EarlTamm]

I wouldn't put too much faith in Sakurai. The last time we thought we had him nailed down, he gave us a potted plant...

I don't think faith is the right word. I think it's a matter of expectations.

 

[xpnc]

Holy crap, guys, just realized something.

If Brave is Geno, why does he have a wider shield? Well, when most characters block, they usually contract their shape and pull their limbs inward to assume guarding position. Why would this be different with Geno?

Spoiler

Because whenever Geno guards in SMRPG, he extends his arm OUTWARDS; he doesn't pull himself closer like most other characters! This would explain why his shield is wider: to compensate for his arm sticking out forward! It make sense!

That would be right up Sakurai's alley, too. Attention to detail.

I've come to the conclusion recently that a character that brings nothing new to the table mechanically shouldn't be put in the game at this point. I like to think there's a similar mindset over at Sora LTD, especially because popular characters that wouldn't have been especially unique were turned into Echo Fighters in this game instead of wasting time and resources fully-fleshing out someone who would never have an original moveset (Chrom).

You combine a unique shield animation with something like timed hits, and you've got yourself a character that's guaranteed to be unique. I don't think there's any other character in the Square Enix 7 lineup that could heavily differentiate themselves from the swordsman archetype already done to death besides Geno, and I think that's really good news.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I wouldn't put too much faith in Sakurai. The last time we thought we had him nailed down, he gave us a potted plant...

And that just gives me more faith in him. Because he has lots of neat ideas put into Smash. I love that PP got in. It's a fun and interesting character, which should also be important to character choices. Off-the-wall picks make the game really good and give us a nice varied roster. Being only protagonists is actually boring in itself. Having variety beyond that, including those who don't fit either category(protagonist or antagonist) is nice too. Just being a recognizable character with moveset potential is enough. Sure, PP is an antagonist in this case, but then you have ones like Wii Fit Trainer or R.O.B. which don't fit either category, same with Duck Hunt(though that does include the protagonist technically, since the person who does the shooting is the player him/herself offscreen, making the team a trio, but the Dog nor Duck are really antagonists in the same way as other games). You could also say that the fact he has surprise picks is what's keeping the game very interesting.

 

[Ovaltine]

That would be right up Sakurai's alley, too. Attention to detail.

I've come to the conclusion recently that a character that brings nothing new to the table mechanically shouldn't be put in the game at this point. I like to think there's a similar mindset over at Sora LTD, especially because popular characters that wouldn't have been especially unique were turned into Echo Fighters in this game instead of wasting time and resources fully-fleshing out someone who would never have an original moveset (Chrom).

You combine a unique shield animation with something like timed hits, and you've got yourself a character that's guaranteed to be unique. I don't think there's any other character in the Square Enix 7 lineup that could heavily differentiate themselves from the swordsman archetype already done to death besides Geno, and I think that's really good news.

Well, there is also Slime in terms of non-swordsmen. I personally don't mind swords-users coming in, but we really don't have a lot of gunner-types, and Geno would be so perfect for that. We only have Dark Samus, Samus, Mega Man, and Mii Gunner. Compare that to the 16-ish swords-users we have right now, and... yeah, another gunner like Geno wouldn't hurt at all.

As for Sakurai, I have faith in him. He gave me K. Rool and Ridley. Say what you want about Plant, but I love the little guy. Incineroar isn't the greatest pick, sure, and my least favorite newcomer this time around, but a Pokemon slot had to be filled. That wasn't Sakurai's fault, but a stipulation from Nintendo.

Nintendo of Japan, however... I have less faith in. That's where I'm concerned when it comes to the DLC. NoJ may have been giving a lot of fan favoritism lately, but I have a sinking feeling that Smash is going to be the exception, at least in terms of Fighter's Pass. My hopes are still solid for misc. DLC or future seasons, though, especially if Nintendo lets Sakurai make more picks from the ballot.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

especially if Nintendo lets Sakurai make more picks from the ballot.

I'm sure that'll be the case. The Switch is poised to have a long lifetime, and it's proven that even seemingly complete games like Treasure Tracker can still get DLC after the fact, so who's to say Ultimate will be exempt from that when its sales aren't middling?

I still think the FP picks will be of the "pleasantly surprising" variety, given how at least one staff member seemed to be excited about them. Unless they got the crummiest taste in the world.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, there is also Slime in terms of non-swordsmen. I personally don't mind swords-users coming in, but we really don't have a lot of gunner-types, and Geno would be so perfect for that. We only have Dark Samus, Samus, Mega Man, and Mii Gunner. Compare that to the 16-ish swords-users we have right now, and... yeah, another gunner like Geno wouldn't hurt at all.

As for Sakurai, I have faith in him. He gave me K. Rool and Ridley. Say what you want about Plant, but I love the little guy. Incineroar isn't the greatest pick, sure, and my least favorite newcomer this time around, but a Pokemon slot had to be filled. That wasn't Sakurai's fault, but a stipulation from Nintendo.

Nintendo of Japan, however... I have less faith in. That's where I'm concerned when it comes to the DLC. NoJ may have been giving a lot of fan favoritism lately, but I have a sinking feeling that Smash is going to be the exception, at least in terms of Fighter's Pass. My hopes are still solid for misc. DLC or future seasons, though, especially if Nintendo lets Sakurai make more picks from the ballot.

There is nothing to suggest that Sakurai was forced to choose a Pokemon in general for Smash every game. He chooses a Pokemon or sets aside a slot due to how massively popular the series is and how it can easily get newcomers that feel fresh and interesting. Where did you hear that?

 

[ZelDan]

Pirahna Plant was creatively handled I will say that, and it admittedly has a fun moveset (liked it enough to get into elite smash with it...). Still not crazy over a generic mook being made playable though, because now there's nothing to really stop arguing against any generic mook from any Nintendo franchise. bokoblins, space pirates, waddle doos, goombas, generic Fire emblem soldier or thief, zingers form DKC, etc. Hell, shouldn't assist trophies be used for character like Pirahna Plant and not, you know, characters that people actually want like Isaac, Ashley, Shadow, Waluigi, etc.

I'm all for getting more than just heroes or protagonists, but more villains or more wtf/retro picks could have helped with that.

 

[Ovaltine]

There is nothing to suggest that Sakurai was forced to choose a Pokemon in general for Smash every game. He chooses a Pokemon or sets aside a slot due to how massively popular the series is and how it can easily get newcomers that feel fresh and interesting. Where did you hear that?

Aw heck, was that the case? Could'a sworn it was a Nintendo-requested condition, but I probably remembered that wrong. Disregard that then!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Aw heck, was that the case? Could'a sworn it was a Nintendo-requested condition, but I probably remembered that wrong. Disregard that then!

All I remember is that Gamefreak left the Pokemon playable character decisions up to Sakurai alone. There could be behind the scenes, but there's no basis in that kind of theory.

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if the information Sakurai gets on who to choose in Pokemon is somewhat limited, but only what Gamefreak is willing to present to him, but that's a bit more realistic and shows, since he only got concept art before choosing both Greninja and Incineroar. There's some evidence that they don't give him all possible information. But who knows if that's just due to the timing alone. Lucario was chosen instead of any starter, for instance.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

In regards to Sakurai choosing a Pokémon, I like to compare it to a trainer choosing their starter. Has anyone even done this kind of fan art yet? It feels like such an exploitable concept.

Besides, Decidueye was nearly considered for this go-round.

 

[Deleted member]

Pirahna Plant was creatively handled I will say that, and it admittedly has a fun moveset (liked it enough to get into elite smash with it...). Still not crazy over a generic mook being made playable though, because now there's nothing to really stop arguing against any generic mook from any Nintendo franchise. bokoblins, space pirates, waddle doos, goombas, generic Fire emblem soldier or thief, zingers form DKC, etc. Hell, shouldn't assist trophies be used for character like Pirahna Plant and not, you know, characters that people actually want like Isaac, Ashley, Shadow, Waluigi, etc.

I'm all for getting more than just heroes or protagonists, but more villains or more wtf/retro picks could have helped with that.

I'm inclined to agree with this. PP is fun and all and they put a lot of effort into it obviously so I can only give Sakurai and his team props for making it work at the end of the day. I'm still a little butthurt about his inclusion though. It was nothing worth crying or losing sleep over but it just felt like a bit of a slap in the face to me. Idk, I've probably spent too much time overthinking it to be honest but I've always been against the inclusion of some guys like Waluigi, Ashley or Bandana Dee but once they announced Piranha Plant as a fighter, the characters I was against don't sound so bad after all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To be honest, I don't think any mook getting in as an issue. They're just a generic race... not unlike Pokemon anyway. The important part is moveset potential and the ability to be memorable enough to attempt to try it. Let's not pretend every Pokemon is based off of a very specific one from a movie or whatever. They're not specific members of the species in Smash. They're literally just a member of the race. At best they're slightly inspired by the anime, but sometimes not even then. Incineroar doesn't even feel like a Fire type in Smash, and is focused on having a personality that's not exactly based upon any official depiction either. They're all characters in the end. A character is just a being in any kind of media that does something. It can be a living plant, it can be a robot with no name, etc. Reality is, most of the characters in Smash just have a lot more characterization than some(which isn't even a requirement to be a character). I wouldn't exactly call R.O.B. the paragon of personality either. Nor are some even a generic character made different in Smash like Mr. Game & Watch was(as there was no "Mr." in the actual series. It's a mishmash of tons of characters within the series and turned into a full one by adding the Mr. He was literally made for Smash).

As for the issue with people asking for mooks... what issue? It's just someone being interested in a character from a game that they find could be fun to play as. That's quite literally all that is necessary to get into Smash. It's not even a game where "All-Stars" is all that important. The important part of Smash these days is that it's a game of playable characters from various games, including non-Nintendo ones. And even then, many characters barely I remembered because of Smash(Captain Falcon, anyone?). Geno is another case of this. We all know he's rather obscure. Doesn't mean that should be a single good reason to ignore him being a good choice for Smash. I can get why we might not get him before some more known characters, sure. That makes sense. Or that him not being active makes it hard for him to get in cause SE doesn't care about the character. Again, that's logical. Though I do hate the foolish "he's a spin-off character" argument when that never once mattered. As Dr. Mario proves alone, spin-offs are pretty big in the Mario series, if not a highly important part of it to begin with. Especially since Daisy pretty much is effectively a spin-off character in all but one game at best(Super Mario Land). Frankly, it shouldn't really matter if they're spin-offs, mooks, or whatever. They all can make interesting Smash characters. If someone you like didn't get in before another character, there's a pretty good chance the character you liked wasn't even competing with the guy that got in. In this case, with Geno, if he didn't become playable, it's more likely that Square-Enix said no. PP would've came regardless, since it was in an entirely different situation(Sakurai wanting the unique pick. Not unlike Duck Hunt or Wii Fit Trainer. The fact PP was highly recognizable is also part of it, so I can understand why some feel miffed that it got in before a Mario character who was voted for... but it's not like PP had any effect on that anyway. It was a completely separate situation).

 

[Sovereign Trinity]

I would be a little dissapointed by the lack of First Party newcomers outside, but Banjo and Geno are Nintendo characters in the hearts of many (including mine) plus their cartoony aesthetic and style is far more appealing than most of Smash 4's newcomers and Joker. They would alone satisfy me after the let down that were Joker and Piranha Plant in my eyes.

Sora is a little more complicated for me though. Also please let the First Party Newcomer be from any franchise that's not Fire Emblem.

I respect your opinion, but how was Joker a let down? Joker was an amazing starter for DLC. Piranha Plant was free as well, so I saw no problem with him/her; Piranha Plant is the "WTF" character of Ultimate, and we always get one like every Smash game.

Sora can be complicated in the eyes of many, but he does fit that role of being a unique fighter and has got some good potential. Remember, he uses magic and a keyblade to fight, not a casual sword like the FE characters. I know Joker and Sora have that "anime" look, but there are many characters that have the "anime" look... it can't be helped. I do consider Banjo and Geno Nintendo characters at heart since that's where their legacy started and is most known for being on a Nintendo console, but it's just too bad they aren't used anymore nor owned by Nintendo.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

The key thing is, if you want to add an enemy, there needs to be a purpose as to how they can be made playable and still work/be interesting, compared to the AT status of Hammer Bro, Chain Chomp and Thwomp (although the former two can arguably be promoted with enough wiggle room). It's not like the Mario spin-offs that add enemies willy-nilly with no regard as to whether they make sense or not. Yet are still a better idea than the Queen Bee.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The key thing is, if you want to add an enemy, there needs to be a purpose as to how they can be made playable and still work/be interesting, compared to the AT status of Hammer Bro, Chain Chomp and Thwomp (although the former two can arguably be promoted with enough wiggle room). It's not like the Mario spin-offs that add enemies willy-nilly with no regard as to whether they make sense or not. Yet are still a better idea than the Queen Bee.

This so much. There's effort put into them being fun and neat. That's why I love the support threads that pop up. I see tons of really neat ideas~

...And yeah, Queen Bee was just... oy. I'll take Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach over that any time of the week. Though it's tough choosing Queen Bee or Baby Daisy/Rosalina... they're both horrid picks. At least the palette swaps aren't inherently hated characters by design. PGP was pretty much based upon Metal Peach in Mario Party 2, and she went Metal since Melee as an option. It's in fact even closer to what Smash does now, as it has the hue of the Metalized characters, instead of being one hard color.

 

[The Anigriffin]

The key thing is, if you want to add an enemy, there needs to be a purpose as to how they can be made playable and still work/be interesting, compared to the AT status of Hammer Bro, Chain Chomp and Thwomp (although the former two can arguably be promoted with enough wiggle room). It's not like the Mario spin-offs that add enemies willy-nilly with no regard as to whether they make sense or not. Yet are still a better idea than the Queen Bee.

I really miss the Wiggler in Mario Kart even if they were just a mook.

 

[Ovaltine]

This so much. There's effort put into them being fun and neat. That's why I love the support threads that pop up. I see tons of really neat ideas~

...And yeah, Queen Bee was just... oy. I'll take Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach over that any time of the week. Though it's tough choosing Queen Bee or Baby Daisy/Rosalina... they're both horrid picks. At least the palette swaps aren't inherently hated characters by design. PGP was pretty much based upon Metal Peach in Mario Party 2, and she went Metal since Melee as an option. It's in fact even closer to what Smash does now, as it has the hue of the Metalized characters, instead of being one hard color.

At least baby Daisy feasibly existed, but oh my god. Baby Rosalina just pisses me off to no end lmao. Lore-wise, her very existence makes absolutely no sense. She's easily the worst of them. Just... uuuuuuugh. Don't do that to one of my favorite Mario characters ever, Nintendo.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

At least baby Daisy feasibly existed, but oh my god. Baby Rosalina just pisses me off to no end lmao. Lore-wise, her very existence makes absolutely no sense. She's easily the worst of them. Just... uuuuuuugh. Don't do that to one of my favorite Mario characters ever, Nintendo.

Nah, Baby Daisy never existed in a previous game, even feasibly(not any more feasible than Baby Rosalina would be, as they all started as babies, naturally). It was just shoehorned in badly. You had something more logical at that point, like Donkey Kong Jr., who is even in Yoshi's Island DS. Or Baby Wario. Actually, I can't think of more than those babies in that game. Mario, Luigi, Peach, Wario, Donkey Kong Jr. Was there another one in YIDS?

 

[Sovereign Trinity]

Aw heck, was that the case? Could'a sworn it was a Nintendo-requested condition, but I probably remembered that wrong. Disregard that then!

I'm pretty sure it's been Sakurai's requests but eventually became Masuda's requests since Smash 4. I think Pichu came in Melee because of Masuda; one of his favorite Pokémon is Pichu, so that could explain why Pichu was included in Melee.

Nah, Baby Daisy never existed in a previous game, even feasibly(not any more feasible than Baby Rosalina would be, as they all started as babies, naturally). It was just shoehorned in badly. You had something more logical at that point, like Donkey Kong Jr., who is even in Yoshi's Island DS. Or Baby Wario. Actually, I can't think of more than those babies in that game. Mario, Luigi, Peach, Wario, Donkey Kong Jr. Was there another one in YIDS?

Baby Bowser.

 

[Deleted member]

To be honest, I don't think any mook getting in as an issue. They're just a generic race... not unlike Pokemon anyway. The important part is moveset potential and the ability to be memorable enough to attempt to try it. Let's not pretend every Pokemon is based off of a very specific one from a movie or whatever. They're not specific members of the species in Smash. They're literally just a member of the race. At best they're slightly inspired by the anime, but sometimes not even then. Incineroar doesn't even feel like a Fire type in Smash, and is focused on having a personality that's not exactly based upon any official depiction either. They're all characters in the end. A character is just a being in any kind of media that does something. It can be a living plant, it can be a robot with no name, etc. Reality is, most of the characters in Smash just have a lot more characterization than some(which isn't even a requirement to be a character). I wouldn't exactly call R.O.B. the paragon of personality either. Nor are some even a generic character made different in Smash like Mr. Game & Watch was(as there was no "Mr." in the actual series. It's a mishmash of tons of characters within the series and turned into a full one by adding the Mr. He was literally made for Smash).

As for the issue with people asking for mooks... what issue? It's just someone being interested in a character from a game that they find could be fun to play as. That's quite literally all that is necessary to get into Smash. It's not even a game where "All-Stars" is all that important. The important part of Smash these days is that it's a game of playable characters from various games, including non-Nintendo ones. And even then, many characters barely I remembered because of Smash(Captain Falcon, anyone?). Geno is another case of this. We all know he's rather obscure. Doesn't mean that should be a single good reason to ignore him being a good choice for Smash. I can get why we might not get him before some more known characters, sure. That makes sense. Or that him not being active makes it hard for him to get in cause SE doesn't care about the character. Again, that's logical. Though I do hate the foolish "he's a spin-off character" argument when that never once mattered. As Dr. Mario proves alone, spin-offs are pretty big in the Mario series, if not a highly important part of it to begin with. Especially since Daisy pretty much is effectively a spin-off character in all but one game at best(Super Mario Land). Frankly, it shouldn't really matter if they're spin-offs, mooks, or whatever. They all can make interesting Smash characters. If someone you like didn't get in before another character, there's a pretty good chance the character you liked wasn't even competing with the guy that got in. In this case, with Geno, if he didn't become playable, it's more likely that Square-Enix said no. PP would've came regardless, since it was in an entirely different situation(Sakurai wanting the unique pick. Not unlike Duck Hunt or Wii Fit Trainer. The fact PP was highly recognizable is also part of it, so I can understand why some feel miffed that it got in before a Mario character who was voted for... but it's not like PP had any effect on that anyway. It was a completely separate situation).

I totally feel what you're saying. However, I think we should really define the context in how we use the term 'mook'. I'm not a fan of the word 'cause I think the definition can be a little misconstrued to define a lot of characters in games. I wouldn't dare call any of the Pokemon a mook because they're all unique in their own way with their own unique designs, movesets and even lore connected to the Pokemon universe in a lot of ways. I would consider Goomba's, Bokoblins or the famous skeleton guys in nearly every single RPG whether it be a JRPG or an MMO in existence a mook because they're generic enemies.

Despite most Pokemon being encountered in random battles, they're not the mooks or the generic enemies in the game, so who are? It's easy. The Team Rocket Grunts. Plasma Grunts. Agua/Magma/Galactic grunts. They're the generic bad guys of the series that work for the main villains. Those in my opinion should be considered the mooks but should they be swept to the side for consideration to be a character in Smash Brothers? The ultimate fighting game staring many of Video Games top stars? Yes, 'cause they're mooks. The fact that they're characters or a part of a race shouldn't be something to take a potential fighter into consideration. They use to require uniqueness and PP never really had anything unique going for him until he got added as a fighter because he's a mook.

Goddamn, I feel like a racist or something when I use that word.

Wii-Fit trainer, ROB and Duck Hunt imo were all very unique. They're not mooks in anyway 'cause they represent characters and franchises that were very relevant to Nintendo at the time of their releases throughout history. They're representation just shows how much of an importance they have to the series they belong to. PP on the other hand, as I'm confident you could argue, I don't see it. All I see is just a generic enemy that was given a spot in Smash over characters greatly represented to their series with a big fanbase, like Isaac or Shadow or Geno. I don't wanna play the whole "it's not fair" card because I think a lot of know that without anyone having to preach it.

Regardless of whether Smash is considered a game of All-Stars or not, it still should be. Even if the term All-Stars isn't even thrown around as much these days but you could aruge that every character in Smash before PP had an All-Star trait to them related to their respective series. And I hate the spin-off argument as well but I don't consider PP a spin-off character because he's been in nearly every Mario game in existence as a generic enemy but he had nothing to offer. All he was good for originally to pop out of pipes and cockblock you in a way, then they started making him shoot fireballs.

I'm not saying that PP hurts chances or got in the way of characters that fans did request and rally behind because I don't believe that at all. To me his inclusion just seems silly. Not silly 'ha ha' but silly... 'stupid'.

 

[Deleted member]

I respect your opinion, but how was Joker a let down? Joker was an amazing starter for DLC. Piranha Plant was free as well, so I saw no problem with him/her; Piranha Plant is the "WTF" character of Ultimate, and we always get one like every Smash game.

I have never been a fan of "WTF" characters, at best they are 3 second jokes to me and the only thing they have going for it in my eyes are "oh lmao nobody saw that coming". No thanks, i'll rather have the obvious picks. WFT was by far my least favorite reveal in Smash 4, for instance. However the one saving grace of these characters is that it allows you to know about the more obscure side of Nintendo, which is something Piranha Plant doesn't offer at all (Sakurai said it himself, everybody knows PP, so the obscurity charm is completely lost)

Im not gonna talk about Joker that much, all im going to say is that Persona is Kryptonite to me.

EDIT: I know, Wii Fit isn't "obscure" (it outsells almost every franchise featured in Smash), but you get the idea with other characters.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Nah, Baby Daisy never existed in a previous game, even feasibly(not any more feasible than Baby Rosalina would be, as they all started as babies, naturally). It was just shoehorned in badly. You had something more logical at that point, like Donkey Kong Jr., who is even in Yoshi's Island DS. Or Baby Wario. Actually, I can't think of more than those babies in that game. Mario, Luigi, Peach, Wario, Donkey Kong Jr. Was there another one in YIDS?

Nope, that's it, although there was that reveal of a Baby Yoshi at the end (even then the concept wasn't new, with Yoshi's Story prior to that).

And now I can't help but think they might put in a baby Pauline...

 

[Firox]

And that just gives me more faith in him. Because he has lots of neat ideas put into Smash. I love that PP got in. It's a fun and interesting character, which should also be important to character choices. Off-the-wall picks make the game really good and give us a nice varied roster. Being only protagonists is actually boring in itself. Having variety beyond that, including those who don't fit either category(protagonist or antagonist) is nice too. Just being a recognizable character with moveset potential is enough. Sure, PP is an antagonist in this case, but then you have ones like Wii Fit Trainer or R.O.B. which don't fit either category, same with Duck Hunt(though that does include the protagonist technically, since the person who does the shooting is the player him/herself offscreen, making the team a trio, but the Dog nor Duck are really antagonists in the same way as other games). You could also say that the fact he has surprise picks is what's keeping the game very interesting.

Sorry, but I just have to disagree. Sure PP is fun and interesting, but to claim that a generic super mario baddie is MORE fun and interesting than an actual character just doesn't make any rational sense. I'm not even saying that Sakurai needs to add protagonists (heck, I think we need more villains!), but think about all the iconic, super hype characters that could have gotten in but didn't. You've got Geno, Isaac, Banjo-Kazooie, Knuckles, Scizor (who I really would have rathered had over Incineroar), Chrono, ANY other FF character (I would have wet myself over Sephiroth), ANY other Zelda character that isn't another Link or Zelda, Zero from Mega Man X...hell, even Waluigi for goodness sake, and I don't even LIKE Waluigi. My point is, Nintendo went through all the trouble of making a ballot for us to vote on our favorite characters, and in the end it seems like they just threw it out the window. Sure, we got some awesome nuggets like Cloud and Ridley, but you can be dang sure that piranha plant was NOWHERE in the top 100 of the ballot...unless you count him among the other troll picks like tetris piece and punching bag, cuz why not? "Fun and interesting" right?

In the end, it's Nintendo's game and they can throw in whoever they want, but if I had to choose between PP and any of the characters I listed, it sure as hell wouldn't be him. He was free, so whatevs, but I can promise you that if the upcoming DLC has more of the same random garbage a la Minecraft Steve, I ain't buyin'. That's just me. Love what you want, buy what you want, but I won't support characters I have no interest in playing, simple as that.

 

[Firox]

I have never been a fan of "WTF" characters, at best they are 3 second jokes to me and the only thing they have going for it in my eyes are "oh lmao nobody saw that coming". No thanks, i'll rather have the obvious picks. WFT was by far my least favorite reveal in Smash 4, for instance. However the one saving grace of these characters is that it allows you to know about the more obscure side of Nintendo, which is something Piranha Plant doesn't offer at all (Sakurai said it himself, everybody knows PP, so the obscurity charm is completely lost)

Im not gonna talk about Joker that much, all im going to say is that Persona is Kryptonite to me.

EDIT: I know, Wii Fit isn't "obscure" (it outsells almost every franchise featured in Smash), but you get the idea with other characters.

You took the words right outta my mouth, Bro. Can't tell you how much I seethed at WFT. To this day, I'd argue that she's not even an actual character, she's a peripheral. So is ROB I guess, but at least he's got that Wall-E charm to him.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I totally feel what you're saying. However, I think we should really define the context in how we use the term 'mook'. I'm not a fan of the word 'cause I think the definition can be a little misconstrued to define a lot of characters in games. I wouldn't dare call any of the Pokemon a mook because they're all unique in their own way with their own unique designs, movesets and even lore connected to the Pokemon universe in a lot of ways. I would consider Goomba's, Bokoblins or the famous skeleton guys in nearly every single RPG whether it be a JRPG or an MMO in existence a mook because they're generic enemies.

Every single mook is unique in their own way. They're all generic enemies in Pokemon by design too. All can technically be found in the wild or are designed to be. If it weren't for the anime, they wouldn't even have a preset personality.

Despite most Pokemon being encountered in random battles, they're not the mooks or the generic enemies in the game, so who are? It's easy. The Team Rocket Grunts. Plasma Grunts. Agua/Magma/Galactic grunts. They're the generic bad guys of the series that work for the main villains. Those in my opinion should be considered the mooks but should they be swept to the side for consideration to be a character in Smash Brothers? The ultimate fighting game staring many of Video Games top stars? Yes, 'cause they're mooks. The fact that they're characters or a part of a race shouldn't be something to take a potential fighter into consideration. They need uniqueness and PP never really had anything unique going for him until he got added as a fighter.

This is incorrect. They are still random enemies in the game, just recruitable ones. They're all mooks. There's more than one kind of mook.

Wii-Fit trainer, ROB and Duck Hunt imo were all very unique. They're not mooks in anyway 'cause they represent characters and franchises that were very relevant to Nintendo at the time of their releases throughout history. They're representation just shows how much of an importance they have to the series they belong to. PP on the other hand, as I'm confident you could argue, I don't see it. All I see is just a generic enemy that was given a spot in Smash over characters greatly represented to their series with a big fanbase, like Isaac or Shadow or Geno. I don't wanna play the whole "it's not fair" card because I think a lot of know that without anyone having to preach it.

Wii Fit Trainer, R.O.B., Duck Hunt, and Piranha Plant are all surprise characters. They're literally the same role. None of them are specifically protagonists, nor specific antagonists in the same way. They actually don't represent what you're saying cause that's not at all why they were added. Duck Hunt in itself was recognizable, but almost nobody saw it coming. Wii Fit had tons of sales, but nobody expected that kind of character. R.O.B. was never thought of someone who would ever be added cause they were just a toy. Reality is, he wanted PP because it wasn't an ordinary protagonist, but just a unique character with tons of potential and flair. That's actually how it got in. He doesn't care about "must be protagonist" stuff either. Just like he doesn't treat anyone like some generic character either, even when they are(which again, describes all the Pokemon. They're definitely generic as the race acts just as normal. Even more funny is that Pokemon Trainer is intentionally generic and represents the class more than anyone. There's no strict identity. You can barely tie PIkachu to the anime at one point, but not anymore as it has alternate female costumes just to show it's a recognizable generic race. That's the point of it. They clearly didn't care that the anime Pikachu of note was male either. It was a coincidence that Smash used the male design at best).

Piranha Plant absolutely represents the important of Mario having more than characters with major story importance. Being a simple enemy is extremely important to the franchise as a whole. Considering people took Queen Bee as a horrible addition, yet loved the addition of Koopa Troopa in comparison, it should tell you that being a "mook" is not a badge of crap, but actually something extremely important to each game. It's just a character role they play, and it's still always important to have that kind of role. What, is the protagonist not going to fight something or be challenged by anything? Mooks are highly important role. And in the case of Pokemon, many of the Pokemon are challenging mooks to fight against while also facing mook trainers too. It's just two different set of mooks.

Regardless of whether Smash is considered a game of All-Stars or not, it still should be. Even if the term All-Stars isn't even thrown around as much these days but you could aruge that every character in Smash before PP had an All-Star trait to them related to their respective series. And I hate the spin-off argument as well but I don't consider PP a spin-off character because he's been in nearly every Mario game in existence as a generic enemy but he had nothing to offer. All he was good for originally to pop out of pipes and cockblock you in a way, then they started making him shoot fireballs.

Pfft, Roy wasn't an All-Star at that point. He literally got introduced in Smash. Hell, calling Corrin one is silly at that point. Definitely, definitely not. So I don't see the issue at all. PP isn't a spin-off character, obviously. He was introduced in the mainline series. I was saying Geno is a spin-off character, and so is Dr. Mario, to be clear.

I'm not saying that PP hurts chances or got in the way of characters that fans did request and rally behind because I don't believe that at all. To me his inclusion just seems silly. Not silly 'ha ha' but silly... 'stupid'.

Well, it actually helps characters you wouldn't expect, like Geno, since being major all-stars isn't obviously something that has to matter. And as much as I like Geno, he doesn't have all-star power due to the lack of game presence. Not dissing him, either, of course. I love the guy. But he isn't recognizable like some of the roster is. In fact, a lot of the characters in Smash barely could qualify as All-Stars. You'll find Ganon is far more recognizable than Ganondorf too.

Sorry, but I just have to disagree. Sure PP is fun and interesting, but to claim that a generic super mario baddie is MORE fun and interesting than an actual character just doesn't make any rational sense. I'm not even saying that Sakurai needs to add protagonists (heck, I think we need more villains!), but think about all the iconic, super hype characters that could have gotten in but didn't. You've got Geno, Isaac, Banjo-Kazooie, Knuckles, Scizor (who I really would have rathered had over Incineroar), Chrono, ANY other FF character (I would have wet myself over Sephiroth), ANY other Zelda character that isn't another Link or Zelda, Zero from Mega Man X...hell, even Waluigi for goodness sake, and I don't even LIKE Waluigi. My point is, Nintendo went through all the trouble of making a ballot for us to vote on our favorite characters, and in the end it seems like they just threw it out the window. Sure, we got some awesome nuggets like Cloud and Ridley, but you can be dang sure that piranha plant was NOWHERE in the top 100 of the ballot...unless you count him among the other troll picks like tetris piece and punching bag, cuz why not? "Fun and interesting" right?

Tetris Piece is actually not a troll pick. People actually love Tetris, and want that represented. PP is an actual character. He's a character who plays a role in the game, being one of many challenges for Mario to overcome. That's still a character. I honestly would've kept Pichu over Scizor too, if it matters. I honestly felt like Pichu deserves its spot due to being the mascot for the babies, and awesome character among the movies, and also effectively Gen II's mascot. The fact it's also a clone, making it easy to get in, is coincidental. Most of those, except Waluigi and Isaac, legitimately speaking, are ones who I would've liked to see in. Though I'd like to see Ganon. But as I said, all you listed was various characters that didn't get in, when another character got in as a free DLC bonus. I can't honestly say there's a real difference between 'em. They're all unique characters who have interesting roles in their specific games, with some being a generic race with little characterization. I don't differentiate among 'em cause I see no reason to. It's silly to act like any character is a bad idea alone. I just don't see how they can be. I can see how you can fix up how they're represented due to things like "too much violence", "change in aesthetics", "game balance", but their role in the game as a character doesn't honestly feel like it should matter as long as they have a role to begin with. And PP has a role in tons of Mario games. So, it's just a character. Just like the rest of what you mentioned.

What are you talking about on the ballot? At least 4(if not more) were chosen for base roster. Only two DLC characters are revealed, and they weren't ballot picks. They didn't throw it out. Also, the only troll picks are things that are barely qualified as characters, like the Pepe meme. Even Shrek isn't a troll pick. Some legitimately want him to be playable. You're using the term "troll" too often without understanding what it means. It means intentionally to piss off others. Reality is, none of your examples count as that. Besides, Super Smash Flash 2 made Sandbag playable because it's a unique joke character(and was an actual programmed character in Melee to begin with). Who cares

In the end, it's Nintendo's game and they can throw in whoever they want, but if I had to choose between PP and any of the characters I listed, it sure as hell wouldn't be him. He was free, so whatevs, but I can promise you that if the upcoming DLC has more of the same random garbage a la Minecraft Steve, I ain't buyin'. That's just me. Love what you want, buy what you want, but I won't support characters I have no interest in playing, simple as that.

PP doesn't have a gender, to note. Just like all the other race-based characters except Yoshi. Also, Steve is the opposite of garbage. He's a high-profile gaming icon that frankly has earned his way into Smash since Smash 4 alone. It's fine not having interest in playing, but mindlessly bashing characters only further makes your point worse.

 

[Ovaltine]

Nah, Baby Daisy never existed in a previous game, even feasibly(not any more feasible than Baby Rosalina would be, as they all started as babies, naturally). It was just shoehorned in badly. You had something more logical at that point, like Donkey Kong Jr., who is even in Yoshi's Island DS. Or Baby Wario. Actually, I can't think of more than those babies in that game. Mario, Luigi, Peach, Wario, Donkey Kong Jr. Was there another one in YIDS?

Well, it's more like baby Rosalina is basically a child version of the Rosalina we know and love, but... not, because it contradicts with her story book. As quoted on the Mario Wiki,

"Baby Rosalina's design contradicts the events of the storybook; despite Rosalina meeting the Lumas when she was a child, her baby form has her dress decorated with stars, a crown with jewels, and a wand. She also has blond hair, while Rosalina has red hair as a child in the storybook."

At least baby Daisy would have feasibly and logically been able to exist, even if she wasn't present in any games. Baby Rosalina shouldn't even exist to begin with, not the way she is portrayed here. It's entirely illogical and paradoxical.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, it's more like baby Rosalina is basically a child version of the Rosalina we know and love, but... not, because it contradicts with her story book. As quoted on the Mario Wiki,

"Baby Rosalina's design contradicts the events of the storybook; despite Rosalina meeting the Lumas when she was a child, her baby form has her dress decorated with stars, a crown with jewels, and a wand. She also has blond hair, while Rosalina has red hair as a child in the storybook."

At least baby Daisy would have feasibly and logically been able to exist, even if she wasn't present in any games. Baby Rosalina shouldn't even exist to begin with, not the way she is portrayed here. It's entirely illogical and paradoxical.

Oh, so it's more they got the design wrong, then? But at least Baby Rosalina existed in a game prior.

 

[Ovaltine]

Oh, so it's more they got the design wrong, then? But at least Baby Rosalina existed in a game prior.

Nah, she didn't. In Rosalina's storybook, she was a young child, but never a baby. The whole baby thing was a huge shoehorn, much like baby Daisy. Rosalina in her story book is likely at least 11 or 12 years old, definitely not a baby.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Nah, she didn't. In Rosalina's storybook, she was a young child, but never a baby. The whole baby thing was a huge shoehorn, much like baby Daisy. Rosalina in her story book is likely at least 11 or 12 years old, definitely not a baby.

Ohhhhhh, that's more clear. At least we saw Rosalina younger, I guess? I dunno. The fact it's a baby version could also mean her hair was changed in her later years, but it's still a shoehorn regardless.

 

[ZelDan]

Nah, she didn't. In Rosalina's storybook, she was a young child, but never a baby. The whole baby thing was a huge shoehorn, much like baby Daisy. Rosalina in her story book is likely at least 11 or 12 years old, definitely not a baby.

She had to have beena baby at some point though.

As for how she was dressed. I dunno, maybe adult Rosalina decided to dress up baby Rosalina like herself to be cute.