Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Mr. Peepee]

Doesn't having Fighter 8's reveal a month after Steve seem a bit too early for a reveal?

 

[QQS]

Doesn't having Fighter 8's reveal a month after Steve seem a bit too early for a reveal?

Yes, but remember we haven’t got a double reveal yet in FP2, and in FP1 both Hero and Banjo were revealed in less than 15 minutes gap between.

We can get Steve and 8 in this same 2020 (Crash or Geno for me).

 

[GenoDoge]

November is definitely a busy month for gaming. Can you all believe Geno debuted at the end of the Fourth Generation (SNES/Genesis) and now we're entering the Ninth Generation (PS5/XboxSeries)?

 

[MondoMega]

I'm not sold on a November announcement, but it isn't impossible.

Hero and Banjo & Kazooie were revealed in the same presentation just 30 minutes apart, and Terry was revealed a few hours before Banjo & Kazooie were released. A reveal just a month after Steve's reveal and release could happen, but I feel safer betting on December.

 

[Mr. Peepee]

Tbh the pandemic has screwed up Nintendo's plans so who knows, we might get Fighter 8 earlier than expected

 

[Enigma735]

As much as I would love for CP8 cough Geno cough to be revealed in November, I just think its way too soon and I feel like Nintendo might wanna space this Pass out, especially considering this Pass has more slots to fill then in Pass 1. With that said, I do think we will get a reveal at the earliest at TGA, and at the latest in a February Direct. I'm sorry to say this though, but CP8 getting revealed in November honestly feels like wishful thinking to me, and I'm just trying to be a realist here.

 

[Peepo T. Skeleton]

I am 100% certain this has been done before, but I have a couple ideas for what spirit battles with certain SMRPG characters would be like.

Frogfucius: A green alt Greninja accompanied by two small black Greninjas representing the tadpoles and a gray Kirby representing Mallow. The Greninjas prefer to jump and use aerials. Pies occasionally spawn. The stage is Hanenbow.

Boshi: A blue alt Yoshi along with various other colors. The blue Yoshi is aggressive and has a boosted movement speed while the other colors are passive and generally just mind their own business. Donuts frequently spawn and all of the Yoshis including the blue one will immediately rush to eat them. The stage is Yoshi's Island Melee.

Booster: A red WarioWare alt Wario assisted by three black Meta Knights representing Booster's Snifit henchmen. Wario prefers to use f-smash or side-b, while the Meta Knights spawn with various shooting items. Bob-Bombs occasionally spawn and Wario will attempt to use them against you. The fight takes place in the tower portion of Mushroom Kingdom U.

If you really wanted to get nutty with the Frogfucius fight, there could be a Toon Link spamming the Wind Waker taunt representing Toadofsky.

 

[Trevenant]

Okay, the current tournament/Challenge cup for Smash Ultimate concludes on Sunday the 1st, that much is clear. The longest we've waited so far for a Smash reveal after a tournament conclusion was after the September 26, 2020 Challenge Cup which was exactly 5 days on October the 1st. The only thing that could potentially hold up a reveal for the first week of November is the final re-release of Sword and Shield with the DLC

Idk there kind of is something stopping anything from happening this month and that's Steve or rather the implications surrounding him. I'm not get into the ins and outs but instead am gonna ask why people are flat out ignoring why we aren't getting the next character next month. I get wishing for the most optimistic outcome but people actually saying it's plausible and providing reasoning as to why it is while also flat out refusing to acknowledge what actively suggesta December or January which is arguably stronger reasoning based on precedent from the Smash team itself is just puzzling to me. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, it's just that I see people not at all acknowledging the stuff going against it but fully go through the ins and outs of why it is likely when we have stuff which pretty much actively suggests not next month. I honestly want to know whether I'm missing something or people are just intentionally avoiding it as I never see it brought up, only the positives for why the next character is arguably likely for next month.

 

[Aerospherology]

I am 100% certain this has been done before, but I have a couple ideas for what spirit battles with certain SMRPG characters would be like.

Frogfucius: A green alt Greninja accompanied by two small black Greninjas representing the tadpoles and a gray Kirby representing Mallow. The Greninjas prefer to jump and use aerials. Pies occasionally spawn. The stage is Hanenbow.

Boshi: A blue alt Yoshi along with various other colors. The blue Yoshi is aggressive and has a boosted movement speed while the other colors are passive and generally just mind their own business. Donuts frequently spawn and all of the Yoshis including the blue one will immediately rush to eat them. The stage is Yoshi's Island Melee.

Booster: A red WarioWare alt Wario assisted by three black Meta Knights representing Booster's Snifit henchmen. Wario prefers to use f-smash or side-b, while the Meta Knights spawn with various shooting items. Bob-Bombs occasionally spawn and Wario will attempt to use them against you. The fight takes place in the tower portion of Mushroom Kingdom U.

If you really wanted to get nutty with the Frogfucius fight, there could be a Toon Link spamming the Wind Waker taunt representing Toadofsky.

Purple Star Piece:
Purple Geno (who doesn't like to fight), star hat Pikachu, and blue Greninja on Mario Galaxy

 

[Mr. Peepee]

So is it safe to assume that Geno's fighter spirit will be his sprite from Mario RPG like Lucas?

Also, I wanna say something that'll spook everyone (including me) is there anything that could potentially deconfirm Geno? The only thing that can come from the top of my head is that Nintendo could go with a different Square rep.

 

[MondoMega]

Also, I wanna say something that'll spook everyone (including me) is there anything that could potentially deconfirm Geno? The only thing that can come from the top of my head is that Nintendo could go with a different Square rep.

Another Square Enix rep in Volume 2 and his Mii Costume returning in that character's wave are the only two things I can think of; but I don't believe either of those are happening.

For the record, I think Sora would've been able to co-exist with Geno in the same pass. Despite both being from games developed by Square Enix, Sora is all-Disney in terms of ownership, and Geno is still technically a Mario character, that balances them out from my perspective.

 

[T2by4]

Another Square Enix rep in Volume 2 and his Mii Costume returning in that character's wave are the only two things I can think of; but I don't believe either of those are happening.

For the record, I think Sora would've been able to co-exist with Geno in the same pass. Despite both being from games developed by Square Enix, Sora is all-Disney in terms of ownership, and Geno is still technically a Mario character, that balances them out from my perspective.

If anything I'd say 2B is his biggest competitor. The game did great. I just cant inagine Sora being a possibility with all the legalities and disney.

 

[Deleted member]

If anything I'd say 2B is his biggest competitor. The game did great. I just cant inagine Sora being a possibility with all the legalities and disney.

If anything Lara Croft may be Geno’s biggest competition. Lara Croft is one of the last gaming icons left to join Smash and Tomb Raider being Square’s 3rd best selling franchise over 80 million units sold. I don’t know what makes 2B so likely that fact Nintendo has never given any support to the nier or the drakengaurd series. Not even a costume or an obscure spin-off. Not a definite disconfirm, but Sakurai’s first time meeting the creator was like back in December 2019 when the Fighter’s Pass was most likely decided before. Sakurai tends to meet the creators when it comes to their characters like Nomura and Horii. Possible but unlikely.

 

[MondoMega]

If anything I'd say 2B is his biggest competitor. The game did great. I just cant inagine Sora being a possibility with all the legalities and disney.

Oh, yeah, I can agree with that. I worded what I said about Sora ("would've") very specifically for a reason.

 

[GenoDoge]

So, what if enough Square Enix character besides Geno happens...but the Geno costume and Chocobo hat don't return?

 

[StarLight42]

Wouldn't Sephiroth or Crono be bigger competition than 2B? 2B wasn't in the Seven Squares Vergeben leak if I recall correctly.

 

[MondoMega]

Wouldn't Sephiroth or Crono be bigger competition than 2B? 2B wasn't in the Seven Squares Vergeben leak if I recall correctly.

I mean, if we're being totally honest to ourselves, I don't think Geno had any Square Enix competition since i'm confident that Nintendo chose him, lol.

 

[GenoDoge]

So, I was thinking. We know, if Sakurai is being 100% honest, these are the last four fighters to join gaming's greatest crossover. Now, let's look at the first two characters of Fighter's Pass 2:

Min Min - A character from a decently sold Nintendo Switch first party game. Min Min managed to get in even though Arms was too late for base game.

Steve - A character from the best-selling video game game of all time. Talks went on for 5 years.

It seems with this Fighter's Pass, Nintendo & Sakurai may want to close loose ends and let characters who were too late get in.

You know who Sakurai wanted to put in Smash, but it never went through? You know who got a Smash 4 Mii costume? You know who's had huge online support for a decade and a half?

The one and only Geno.

This is the final four slots, and Geno makes so much sense. He may be #78. He may be #79. He may be #80. He may even be #81. All I know is that he's in.

June 12th, 2018 was the day Ridley was no longer too big.

August 8th, 2018 was the day King K. Rool was no longer too irrelevant.

June 11th, 2019 was the day Banjo was no longer too irrelevant.

June 22nd, 2020 was the day spirits no longer disconfirmed.

Our day will be in Smash history soon.

Just a little longer.

 

[Loliko YnT]

I found back this remix on youtube ;

I find it fascinating that even as far back as 2011 , we had Geno for smash related content on youtube !

He also appear as a cameo in this very old brawl animation !

 

[Peepo T. Skeleton]

I know Geno's crouch would probably just be the average kneeling one most characters have, but it'd be hilarious if it made him collapse on command like a giant push puppet.

 

[Mizzle]

So now that the topic of other Square Enix reps has been brought back, I'll give my thoughts on each one and their likelihood of being chosen.

*Sora: There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Sakurai/Nintendo had attempted to get Kingdom Hearts in Smash at some point. Sora is one of the most requested characters in pretty much every region, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was the most requested Square Enix character in the actual Fighter Ballot. The only issue with his inclusion is, of course, Disney. If Square Enix wasn't able to keep Sora forever in their own game, it's obvious that the rights for licensing him are pretty high. Nintendo probably thought the price was too much, and so they moved on. Sora is very unlikely.

*Lara Croft: Not happening. People seem to forget that Tomb Raider is developed by Square Enix Europe. The main division of Square Enix has no agency to try to include Lara, a character from a subsidiary that they don't really have any involvement in, instead of characters that they do have direct involvement in. Also, if we were to get any "generic gun user", it probably would have been a Resident Evil character, and we know how that worked out.

*2B: Sakurai had met Yoko Taro, director of the Drakengard/NieR series, for the first time in a Christmas livestream in 2019. In the Byleth Presentation, recorded in November, Sakurai said that all of the character choices in FP2 were finalized. The timeline just doesn't work out. It's a shame, considering she's one of my most wanteds. If there really are more DLC characters beyond FP2, and if the NieR: Replicant remake sells well (which it should, the original is one of my favorite games and the remake just seems to be better in every regard), then I think 2B would be the most likely Square Enix character. It also helps that Sakurai and Yoko Taro seem to be on pretty good terms now, as I can't recall any other people that Sakurai has frequently replied to on Twitter. And no, just because the Drakengard/NieR games have never been on a Nintendo console does not mean they wouldn't consider her. If you honestly think Master Chief had/has a shot, then you have no reason to discount 2B for the same reason.

*Crono: IMO, Geno's only competition right now. Chrono Trigger is a legendary game, with many considering it the best JRPG on the SNES, if not of all time. Square Enix themselves seem to view Chrono Trigger as one of their "sacred games" alongside FFVII. It also helps that Sakurai is a fan of the game. There isn't really much else to discuss, I just think he would make sense as a character.

I don't think I really need to go into the details of why Geno is the most likely Square Enix rep, but since the two most likely characters are both one-off characters from acclaimed SNES games, Square Enix would probably be fine with either character getting in. They may even want to include Geno more, as Sakurai probably brought up his fan demand at some point during the discussions. However it is important to keep in mind the possibility of someone (Nintendo) shooting down Geno. If that were to happen, I think Crono would be the next in line.

 

[Enigma735]

Hey ya'll! Just posting to flex the fact that I finally hit 1K messages!

 

[Peepo T. Skeleton]

So now that the topic of other Square Enix reps has been brought back, I'll give my thoughts on each one and their likelihood of being chosen.

*Sora: There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Sakurai/Nintendo had attempted to get Kingdom Hearts in Smash at some point. Sora is one of the most requested characters in pretty much every region, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was the most requested Square Enix character in the actual Fighter Ballot. The only issue with his inclusion is, of course, Disney. If Square Enix wasn't able to keep Sora forever in their own game, it's obvious that the rights for licensing him are pretty high. Nintendo probably thought the price was too much, and so they moved on. Sora is very unlikely.

*Lara Croft: Not happening. People seem to forget that Tomb Raider is developed by Square Enix Europe. The main division of Square Enix has no agency to try to include Lara, a character from a subsidiary that they don't really have any involvement in, instead of characters that they do have direct involvement in. Also, if we were to get any "generic gun user", it probably would have been a Resident Evil character, and we know how that worked out.

*2B: Sakurai had met Yoko Taro, director of the Drakengard/NieR series, for the first time in a Christmas livestream in 2019. In the Byleth Presentation, recorded in November, Sakurai said that all of the character choices in FP2 were finalized. The timeline just doesn't work out. It's a shame, considering she's one of my most wanteds. If there really are more DLC characters beyond FP2, and if the NieR: Replicant remake sells well (which it should, the original is one of my favorite games and the remake just seems to be better in every regard), then I think 2B would be the most likely Square Enix character. It also helps that Sakurai and Yoko Taro seem to be on pretty good terms now, as I can't recall any other people that Sakurai has frequently replied to on Twitter. And no, just because the Drakengard/NieR games have never been on a Nintendo console does not mean they wouldn't consider her. If you honestly think Master Chief had/has a shot, then you have no reason to discount 2B for the same reason.

*Crono: IMO, Geno's only competition right now. Chrono Trigger is a legendary game, with many considering it the best JRPG on the SNES, if not of all time. Square Enix themselves seem to view Chrono Trigger as one of their "sacred games" alongside FFVII. It also helps that Sakurai is a fan of the game. There isn't really much else to discuss, I just think he would make sense as a character.

I don't think I really need to go into the details of why Geno is the most likely Square Enix rep, but since the two most likely characters are both one-off characters from acclaimed SNES games, Square Enix would probably be fine with either character getting in. They may even want to include Geno more, as Sakurai probably brought up his fan demand at some point during the discussions. However it is important to keep in mind the possibility of someone (Nintendo) shooting down Geno. If that were to happen, I think Crono would be the next in line.

I pretty much agree with what you've said.
I'm definitely not counting Sora out, but if there was a reason why he wouldn't get in, it'd be the price to acquire the rights to him.

The only two things I think might hurt Crono are that the demand for him to be in Smash isn't as high as other Square characters, and the fact that his very distinct Toriyama artstyle might look very samey when placed next to fellow DLC character Hero.

You didn't mention Sephiroth but despite him being in the Seven Squares leak I don't believe any of us think he's likely because they were barely even able to bring Cloud back for Ultimate, so they probably don't want to go through that licensing nightmare a second time.

 

[Firox]

So, what if enough Square Enix character besides Geno happens...but the Geno costume and Chocobo hat don't return?

This strikes me as a statistical impossibility. Even if Nintendo/SE opted for a character beside Geno, there is literally zero sense in not rereleasing the two already-existing costumes. There's pretty much no programing to be done on those. It's free money to rerelease. That said, getting Geno as a costume beside a different SE character would literally be the worst-case scenario for us.

Hey ya'll! Just posting to flex the fact that I finally hit 1K messages!

Welcome to nobility Smash Lord.

 

[Aerospherology]

Spoiler: Geno sprite sheet

Geno sleeps standing. The angry pose would make for a good curry-filled animation with some added skipping. The pose when falling into the Factory makes for a good Star KO, while the surprise animation is a good screen KO. There's a shield animation right there.

For a parry, I think combining his silenced animation with his star form coming out and doing that face that's at the end of Geno Flash and the dodging animation using the pose from the surprise animation with a more neutral expression.

 

[Deleted member]

So, what if enough Square Enix character besides Geno happens...but the Geno costume and Chocobo hat don't return?

We continue to chase down hope like rodeo clowns trying to capture a bull.

As for me, this is my last rodeo.

 

[Mizzle]

The only two things I think might hurt Crono are that the demand for him to be in Smash isn't as high as other Square characters, and the fact that his very distinct Toriyama artstyle might look very samey when placed next to fellow DLC character Hero.

The Heroes weren't very demanded for Smash, but they were still included. Sometimes the "iconicness" of the game holds more weight than if they were heavily requested or not. Crono's visual similarity to the Heroes is a valid argument though. That could be remedied a little bit with the other party members showing up for Dual Techs and stuff to better differentiate the two.

 

[Firox]

We continue to chase down hope like rodeo clowns trying to capture a bull.

As for me, this is my last rodeo.

Agreed. I will say this: If Geno gets costumed again, I'm calling it as proof that despite Sakurai's claims that he wants Geno or that Geno fits in Smash, either he, Nintendo and/or SE just flat out don't care to ever see him Smash as an actual character. And yes, I include Sakurai in the list of blame because he had every chance to put Geno into the base game when he had full creative control and opted not to. I won't even bother to list the characters he prioritized instead. And before I get the inevitable "BuT mAyBe It WaS sQuArE tHaT wOuLdN't GiVe HiM tHe RiGhTs", I refuse to believe that. We've gotten Banjo. We've gotten Steve. We've gotten Hero. If he really wanted to twist their arm, there's no way they would've denied him. The only possible reason they wouldn't have given him Geno was because they wanted Dragon Quest represented first, but even then, if that was truly the obstacle and he really wanted Geno, then he could have put Hero in the base game and immediately planned for Geno in FP1. That didn't happen. In fact, since FP2 wasn't even planned at the time FP1 was in development, we can only conclude that Geno was an afterthought of an afterthought.

Mind you, I still think Geno's chances are arguably better than virtually any other character in speculation right now, however, his chances of exclusion aren't realistically below 0% either. If he gets the bone again, after 11 characters' worth of DLC and the 40+ characters that came after Brawl, I think actions will speak a hell of a lot louder than words. Fortunately, again, our chances are looking better than ever. It's all or nothing now, my peeps.

 

[ctt4lfecw]

What if there isn’t another Square character? And Geno’s costume was just cut altogether?

 

[Firox]

What if there isn’t another Square character? And Geno’s costume was just cut altogether?

Again, this is a totally improbable outcome for the same reasons as below:

This strikes me as a statistical impossibility. Even if Nintendo/SE opted for a character beside Geno, there is literally zero sense in not rereleasing the two already-existing costumes. There's pretty much no programing to be done on those. It's free money to rerelease. That said, getting Geno as a costume beside a different SE character would literally be the worst-case scenario for us.

They could have cashed in the free money with Hero but didn't. That leaves us with only two real options at this point:

1) We get a diff SE character with Geno costume again
or
2) We get Geno for real

I HIGHLY doubt any other outcome but these two.

EDIT: I suppose there is the infinitesimal chance that we get the Geno costume beside a totally unrelated, non-SE character, but SE is fairly puritan about their content and the likelihood of relegating their costumes to a different company's IP is incredibly low.

 

[Snoop_nogg]

What if there isn’t another Square character? And Geno’s costume was just cut altogether?

This is the worst scenario, just throw in the Fortnite guy, while they are at it.

I'd like to see Geno as FP8 alongside a Crono Mii Swordfighter costume

 

[Firox]

This is the worst scenario, just throw in the Fortnite guy, while they are at it.

Exactly. This is why I would honestly be horrified to see somebody from Fortnite get in. I don't see any scenario with Fortnite that ends well for Geno. Not that they are direct competition, but it would seriously have me convinced that Nintendo's priorities are very much opposite of mine. I mean, I could understand why they'd go that direction, but holy hell, my hype would disintegrate entirely.

 

[Mr. Peepee]

I don't see why they would cut Geno's mii costume. That would just seem silly and odd especially since all of the Mii costumes have been coming back. Not sure why they would wait this long since they could have brought it back with Hero.

 

[Deleted member]

So now that the topic of other Square Enix reps has been brought back, I'll give my thoughts on each one and their likelihood of being chosen.

*Sora: There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Sakurai/Nintendo had attempted to get Kingdom Hearts in Smash at some point. Sora is one of the most requested characters in pretty much every region, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was the most requested Square Enix character in the actual Fighter Ballot. The only issue with his inclusion is, of course, Disney. If Square Enix wasn't able to keep Sora forever in their own game, it's obvious that the rights for licensing him are pretty high. Nintendo probably thought the price was too much, and so they moved on. Sora is very unlikely.

*Lara Croft: Not happening. People seem to forget that Tomb Raider is developed by Square Enix Europe. The main division of Square Enix has no agency to try to include Lara, a character from a subsidiary that they don't really have any involvement in, instead of characters that they do have direct involvement in. Also, if we were to get any "generic gun user", it probably would have been a Resident Evil character, and we know how that worked out.

*2B: Sakurai had met Yoko Taro, director of the Drakengard/NieR series, for the first time in a Christmas livestream in 2019. In the Byleth Presentation, recorded in November, Sakurai said that all of the character choices in FP2 were finalized. The timeline just doesn't work out. It's a shame, considering she's one of my most wanteds. If there really are more DLC characters beyond FP2, and if the NieR: Replicant remake sells well (which it should, the original is one of my favorite games and the remake just seems to be better in every regard), then I think 2B would be the most likely Square Enix character. It also helps that Sakurai and Yoko Taro seem to be on pretty good terms now, as I can't recall any other people that Sakurai has frequently replied to on Twitter. And no, just because the Drakengard/NieR games have never been on a Nintendo console does not mean they wouldn't consider her. If you honestly think Master Chief had/has a shot, then you have no reason to discount 2B for the same reason.

*Crono: IMO, Geno's only competition right now. Chrono Trigger is a legendary game, with many considering it the best JRPG on the SNES, if not of all time. Square Enix themselves seem to view Chrono Trigger as one of their "sacred games" alongside FFVII. It also helps that Sakurai is a fan of the game. There isn't really much else to discuss, I just think he would make sense as a character.

I don't think I really need to go into the details of why Geno is the most likely Square Enix rep, but since the two most likely characters are both one-off characters from acclaimed SNES games, Square Enix would probably be fine with either character getting in. They may even want to include Geno more, as Sakurai probably brought up his fan demand at some point during the discussions. However it is important to keep in mind the possibility of someone (Nintendo) shooting down Geno. If that were to happen, I think Crono would be the next in line.

Chrono is a sacred game, but Square has neglected the series for 2 decades outside of ports. We’re probably not going to see a remake anytime soon. For Nintendo, the Chono fanbase is very small to pull new fans to buy the game. Nintendo and Square doesn’t seem to have that much reason to prioritize Crono.

 

[ctt4lfecw]

This is how I see it. If the SMRPG 25th Anniversary comes around, and they do nothing with it, no remake/sequel/port and or no Geno at all in the fighter’s pass. I give up. I mean c’mon, it’s been 25 years. How long is someone supposed to wait. At least Chrono Trigger got a port over to the DS. We’re talking a Mario game and it hasn’t done anything for its fans.

 

[QQS]

Hey ya'll! Just posting to flex the fact that I finally hit 1K messages!

Welcome home, Lord Enigma

 

[Deleted member]

Agreed. I will say this: If Geno gets costumed again, I'm calling it as proof that despite Sakurai's claims that he wants Geno or that Geno fits in Smash, either he, Nintendo and/or SE just flat out don't care to ever see him Smash as an actual character. And yes, I include Sakurai in the list of blame because he had every chance to put Geno into the base game when he had full creative control and opted not to. I won't even bother to list the characters he prioritized instead. And before I get the inevitable "BuT mAyBe It WaS sQuArE tHaT wOuLdN't GiVe HiM tHe RiGhTs", I refuse to believe that. We've gotten Banjo. We've gotten Steve. We've gotten Hero. If he really wanted to twist their arm, there's no way they would've denied him. The only possible reason they wouldn't have given him Geno was because they wanted Dragon Quest represented first, but even then, if that was truly the obstacle and he really wanted Geno, then he could have put Hero in the base game and immediately planned for Geno in FP1. That didn't happen. In fact, since FP2 wasn't even planned at the time FP1 was in development, we can only conclude that Geno was an afterthought of an afterthought.

Mind you, I still think Geno's chances are arguably better than virtually any other character in speculation right now, however, his chances of exclusion aren't realistically below 0% either. If he gets the bone again, after 11 characters' worth of DLC and the 40+ characters that came after Brawl, I think actions will speak a hell of a lot louder than words. Fortunately, again, our chances are looking better than ever. It's all or nothing now, my peeps.

Careful, if you call out Pope Sakurai like that someone's going to call you Wynn 2: Return of the Doomer and disregard your whole opinion.

I will say that things are probably not so cut and dry as "well he could have put [x] in the base game". I often go off about how Nintendo is a business and their decisions are all going to be what draws the most profit margin, an opinion that somehow is controversial. When they put someone like Sonic or Mega Man into the game, they get to use them as a selling point. These are names that are likely to, according to years of market research, drive the sales of the game up on launch. That's good. The cost of acquiring these characters, whether upfront or long term, is likely projected to be far outweighed simply by sales, which they also have projection figures on, and then beyond that they likely get to see when preorders happen, what moves make preorders happen, did they outdo their projections, etc. So, the question becomes if any of these DLC characters would have been worth the investment just to push the 60 dollar game out the door, or are they better used to pad a 25 dollar mystery box or sell for $6 individually (compared to the literally less than a dollar every character and stage is worth in the $60 game if you want to think of it like that)? I'm not going to pretend to know how much it costs to license the characters that we've gotten as DLC now or in the past, or what they expect to get back out of it compared to development costs on top of the licensing costs, or any of the specifics, really.

People seriously must sleep on the fact that folks get their masters degree in this kind of **** and it is very much a science. Marketing and advertising is so huge that it's basically the primary market for ****ing AI development, let that sink in. Whole ass computers are dedicated to figuring out how to sell people something.

Likewise, it's easy to say that Sakurai had creative control over the game, but whether working with HAL or as Sora Ltd, at some point, the buck stopped with Nintendo. It's their game, after all, and very specifically, let us not forget that it wasn't just Sakurai's game or Nintendo's game, it was Iwata's game. There's absolutely no question that, after having helped with the development of 64 and making Melee happen in such a short timeframe, Iwata was there for it, and Iwata decisions were Nintendo decisions. I don't think that we've seen some kind of radical change in picks without Iwata, to be very fair... I know this is starting to feel like a tangent, so the point is that Sakurai probably has never been the absolute on this stuff. I think that his wording about how Geno didn't work out is important and maybe overlooked because we want to see the good in the statement and cling to the hope of the statement, but at the end of the day, there's a reason that it didn't work out, right? And we don't know it, we've just made assumptions. We'll unfortunately never know it, unless Sakurai actually speaks on the why, which he likely will never be able to do.

 

[QQS]

Sakurai loves Geno and he will give Geno the amount of love (or even more) he gave to Mega Man or Banjo-Kazooie. Just look the amazing masterpieces he and the team did with legends characters.

Sakurai is not gonna end Smash without Geno playable; believe me.

GENO LANDS ULTIMATELY!

 

[Peepo T. Skeleton]

The Heroes weren't very demanded for Smash, but they were still included. Sometimes the "iconicness" of the game holds more weight than if they were heavily requested or not. Crono's visual similarity to the Heroes is a valid argument though. That could be remedied a little bit with the other party members showing up for Dual Techs and stuff to better differentiate the two.

Wait the Heroes weren't very demanded? All I've been hearing about them is that they're basically the Master Chief of Japan.

 

[Firox]

Careful, if you call out Pope Sakurai like that someone's going to call you Wynn 2: Return of the Doomer and disregard your whole opinion.

I will say that things are probably not so cut and dry as "well he could have put [x] in the base game". I often go off about how Nintendo is a business and their decisions are all going to be what draws the most profit margin, an opinion that somehow is controversial. When they put someone like Sonic or Mega Man into the game, they get to use them as a selling point. These are names that are likely to, according to years of market research, drive the sales of the game up on launch. That's good. The cost of acquiring these characters, whether upfront or long term, is likely projected to be far outweighed simply by sales, which they also have projection figures on, and then beyond that they likely get to see when preorders happen, what moves make preorders happen, did they outdo their projections, etc. So, the question becomes if any of these DLC characters would have been worth the investment just to push the 60 dollar game out the door, or are they better used to pad a 25 dollar mystery box or sell for $6 individually (compared to the literally less than a dollar every character and stage is worth in the $60 game if you want to think of it like that)? I'm not going to pretend to know how much it costs to license the characters that we've gotten as DLC now or in the past, or what they expect to get back out of it compared to development costs on top of the licensing costs, or any of the specifics, really.

People seriously must sleep on the fact that folks get their masters degree in this kind of **** and it is very much a science. Marketing and advertising is so huge that it's basically the primary market for ****ing AI development, let that sink in. Whole ass computers are dedicated to figuring out how to sell people something.

Likewise, it's easy to say that Sakurai had creative control over the game, but whether working with HAL or as Sora Ltd, at some point, the buck stopped with Nintendo. It's their game, after all, and very specifically, let us not forget that it wasn't just Sakurai's game or Nintendo's game, it was Iwata's game. There's absolutely no question that, after having helped with the development of 64 and making Melee happen in such a short timeframe, Iwata was there for it, and Iwata decisions were Nintendo decisions. I don't think that we've seen some kind of radical change in picks without Iwata, to be very fair... I know this is starting to feel like a tangent, so the point is that Sakurai probably has never been the absolute on this stuff. I think that his wording about how Geno didn't work out is important and maybe overlooked because we want to see the good in the statement and cling to the hope of the statement, but at the end of the day, there's a reason that it didn't work out, right? And we don't know it, we've just made assumptions. We'll unfortunately never know it, unless Sakurai actually speaks on the why, which he likely will never be able to do.

While I totally understand your points, one thing I'd like to point out is the fact that Sakurai doesn't seem very shy about throwing his corporate Nintendo overlords under the bus if he disagrees with their decisions. That said, he's never mentioned them as the culprits behind Geno's exclusion thus far. This makes me very suspicious as to what's been going on behind the curtain here.

As for the marketing thing, consider this: What possible marketing strategy could there have been with regards to say, Piranha Plant? I know this topic is fairly controversial, but let's look at the reasoning here...

1) Mario Franchise: Oooooh look another Mario character! That should drive up sales, right?....Uh really though? The Mario franchise already has the most reps in Smash with the only competition being Pokemon and soon be Fire Emblem. Does anyone honestly think that adding a generic Mario enemy of all characters is going to significantly impact the sales of Smash Ultimate? C'mon, people. COME ON. Why not Waluigi? Why not a myriad of actually NAMED Mario characters? Even if we got any of them, would it make a significant impact anywhere near the third party characters? Probably not.

2) Iconicness: I love it when people throw this around as a justification. "Oh, but the plant is iconic and highly recognizable!" Yeah, sure, but so is Goomba...or Koopa Troopa....or hammer bro...or Kamek/magikoopa, the latter three having actual LIMBS to fight with being a plus. If we wanted to go purely based on "iconicness" why not pick hardcore mainstays like them? It just feels so arbitrary.

3) First Party vs Third party: I think it's pretty safe to say that third party newcomers have always had a bigger impact on the appeal of Smash for one simple reason: Crossover hype. That's the ENTIRE DRAW of Smash bros in the first place. People want to see Mario vs Sonic, Snake vs Cloud, Megaman vs Banjo, crazy off-the-wall grudge matches you'd never see anywhere else. If I wanted to see Mario beat up a Mario enemy, I'd just play....(wait for it)...a Mario game. Granted, I know third parties are probably expensive and harder to procure, but I would imagine that their impact on sales is worth it considering that the amount of third parties has continued to skyrocket since Brawl. Makes sense, since each one expands the ludicrous reach of this particular crossover. MORE CROSSING OVER. So why lean on the mundane like a generic first party enemy?

Mind you, I'm not so much trying to bash Plant or debate its place on the roster as much as demonstrating that there doesn't seem to be much logic or intelligence to Nintendo's marketing strategy when it came to picks like that if they did in fact push their inclusion. To be utterly frank, if the choice was indeed purely creative on the part of Sakurai, then I have to say I find his judgment somewhat lacking at times. (this is just my opinion, please don't lynch me) I'll tell you this though, if we get a different SE character instead of Geno, it will say VOLUMES as to Nintendo and SE's feelings towards Geno.