Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[RetrogamerMax]

I'm not saying Roger isn't credible which I believe he is, but what sources does he have that would make him credible? Being a YouTube partner?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I've heard people claim that Yuri was so popular in Japan in the Smash polls that they had to ban the Yuri from the polls for being too popularity. Don't ask me where the source for this information is as I've only heard people claiming that. Also, Sakurai has gone on record to pretty much say if a Tales rep ever get's into Smash it will most likely be Lloyd.

He never remotely said this.

Let's not confuse the context. What he said, in context, is that he was the only logical Mii costume at the time.

He never spoke of Lloyd being playable whatsoever.

I even quoted it above in my earlier post. Unlike Geno, who he wants playable, Lloyd Irving is someone he barely is clear on his opinions of.

 

[Mr. Peepee]

So what is this supposed thing coming on the 16th? A game?, a direct?, Paul Blart 3?!

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

So what is this supposed thing coming on the 16th? A game?, a direct?, Paul Blart 3?!

Dissapointment.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Somebody should ask Roger who that person that is saying SMRPG is coming back is because nobody has found who that person he's referring to is yet

 

[RetrogamerMax]

He never remotely said this.

Let's not confuse the context. What he said, in context, is that he was the only logical Mii costume at the time.

He never spoke of Lloyd being playable whatsoever.

I even quoted it above in my earlier post. Unlike Geno, who he wants playable, Lloyd Irving is someone he barely is clear on his opinions of.

Nintendo Dream Interview with Sakurai: Part 3

Sakurai discusses stages and costumes in Smash for 3DS/ Wii U.

sourcegaming.info

Lloyd:

—The Tales series has 20 years of history, how did you decide on Lloyd for the costume?

Sakurai: I’m not sure if there was any other appropriate choice?

—For example, how about the protagonist of the first game, Cress? [TN: From Tales of Phantasia]

Sakurai: I really think it has to be Lloyd here (laughs). I could have gone down the route of choosing from the first entry in the series, but for old games it’s somewhat common for the editorial supervision from the original creator to make the process difficult.

 

[Super10ZX]

Still on break, but I just wanted to clarify something.

I've heard people claim that Yuri was so popular in Japan in the Smash polls that they had to ban the Yuri from the polls for being too popularity. Don't ask me where the source for this information is as I've only heard people claiming that. Also, Sakurai has gone on record to pretty much say if a Tales rep ever get's into Smash it will most likely be Lloyd.

Don’t have a source for this either, but from what I heard that info about Yuri being banned from popularity polls is just for Tales character polls, not at all related to anything Smash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Nintendo Dream Interview with Sakurai: Part 3

Sakurai discusses stages and costumes in Smash for 3DS/ Wii U.

sourcegaming.info

Lloyd:

—The Tales series has 20 years of history, how did you decide on Lloyd for the costume?

Sakurai: I’m not sure if there was any other appropriate choice?

—For example, how about the protagonist of the first game, Cress? [TN: From Tales of Phantasia]

Sakurai: I really think it has to be Lloyd here (laughs). I could have gone down the route of choosing from the first entry in the series, but for old games it’s somewhat common for the editorial supervision from the original creator to make the process difficult.

...This literally only speaks of a choice for a costume. Right there.

It has nothing to do with actually being playable whatsoever.

It has slight similarities to Cloud, obviously, but they're in vastly different contexts.

I don't see anything resembling "I would like to see him playable" at any point in this interview. I don't know where anybody gets the idea he meant playable when absolutely nothing suggests that. That doesn't mean Lloyd wouldn't be his most logical choice for playable either, but the context definitely does not say that in any way, shape, or form. Costumes =/= Playable Character. The only costume he actually noted is a character he really wants playable is Geno among third parties. Heihachi he didn't actually even say that, but did he note he considered him, which is a different situation.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

...This literally only speaks of a choice for a costume. Right there.

It has nothing to do with actually being playable whatsoever.

It has slight similarities to Cloud, obviously, but they're in vastly different contexts.

I don't see anything resembling "I would like to see him playable" at any point in this interview. I don't know where anybody gets the idea he meant playable when absolutely nothing suggests that. That doesn't mean Lloyd wouldn't be his most logical choice for playable either, but the context definitely does not say that in any way, shape, or form. Costumes =/= Playable Character. The only costume he actually noted is a character he really wants playable is Geno among third parties. Heihachi he didn't actually even say that, but did he note he considered him, which is a different situation.

Still though, if Sakurai thought Lloyd was the only appropriate choice for a Tales costume than I would think he believes Lloyd would also be the only appropriate choice for a Tales rep.

 

[pinshadow]

...This literally only speaks of a choice for a costume. Right there.

It has nothing to do with actually being playable whatsoever.

It has slight similarities to Cloud, obviously, but they're in vastly different contexts.

I don't see anything resembling "I would like to see him playable" at any point in this interview. I don't know where anybody gets the idea he meant playable when absolutely nothing suggests that. That doesn't mean Lloyd wouldn't be his most logical choice for playable either, but the context definitely does not say that in any way, shape, or form. Costumes =/= Playable Character. The only costume he actually noted is a character he really wants playable is Geno among third parties. Heihachi he didn't actually even say that, but did he note he considered him, which is a different situation.

It has nothing to do with whether or not Sakurai wants him playable. The fact is, he thinks Lloyd is the best choice to represent Tales series in Smash, he's gone on record saying Mii Costumes are meant to be something close to achieving playable status. If he felt Yuri was the best representation, he would have given him the Mii Costume. It's the same thing with someone like Alucard, he thought he might be more popular, but that the Belmont's made more sense, so he went with them.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Still though, if Sakurai thought Lloyd was the only appropriate choice for a Tales costume than I would think he believes Lloyd would also be the only appropriate choice for a Tales rep.

You can believe that if you want, but it's absolutely not a real statement ever made.

In the end, I wouldn't be surprised if we got someone like Yuri either. Because his opinion on who should be playable blatantly has never once been said to us. Till it does, I don't take anything like this remotely seriously, since it's clearly "not the case".

It has nothing to do with whether or not Sakurai wants him playable. The fact is, he thinks Lloyd is the best choice to represent Tales series in Smash, he's gone on record saying Mii Costumes are meant to be something close to achieving playable status. If he felt Yuri was the best representation, he would have given him the Mii Costume. It's the same thing with someone like Alucard, he thought he might be more popular, but that the Belmont's made more sense, so he went with them.

No it doesn't. He thinks he's the best choice for a Mii costume in Smash. No ifs, ands, or buts. People are way overreading his statement as if it were something else.

There is absolutely zero reference to being playable and I see no tangible reason to believe that's what he means since that's not even slightly close to what he said.

I still don't see what you're saying to be remotely accurate. I just see him finding a good costume choice at that point. Also, that's not his point on mii costumes alone. He sees them as good ways to represent characters who couldn't be playable, but not represent the franchise as a whole. Where on earth did he say this in every way, shape, or form? Please cite that. No different from how he views AT's, good characters who couldn't be playable. Not to "represent the franchise as a whole".

 

[RetrogamerMax]

It has nothing to do with whether or not Sakurai wants him playable. The fact is, he thinks Lloyd is the best choice to represent Tales series in Smash, he's gone on record saying Mii Costumes are meant to be something close to achieving playable status. If he felt Yuri was the best representation, he would have given him the Mii Costume. It's the same thing with someone like Alucard, he thought he might be more popular, but that the Belmont's made more sense, so he went with them.

This. Yuri is Tales' Alucard while Lloyd is Tales' Simon.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

It has nothing to do with whether or not Sakurai wants him playable. The fact is, he thinks Lloyd is the best choice to represent Tales series in Smash, he's gone on record saying Mii Costumes are meant to be something close to achieving playable status. If he felt Yuri was the best representation, he would have given him the Mii Costume. It's the same thing with someone like Alucard, he thought he might be more popular, but that the Belmont's made more sense, so he went with them.

While i completely agree with this comparison, there's a small difference. While Alucard and his game are more popular, not only Alucard's game never got a sequel starring him unlike Simon, he really is not used as the main representative of Castlevania in most crossovers.

-Konami Wai Wai World, at the time Casltevania 1 was still fresh in people's minds so they used Simon Belmont (the "III") same goes with Konami Wai Wai World 2.
-Dream Mix TV World Fighters, despite coming out AFTER Symphony of the Night, used Simon Belmont as the main and only representative of CV in that game, fighting alongside Snake, Bomberman, Master Higgins, and Optimus Prime.
-Evolution Skateboarding having Simon Belmont (under the name "Vampire Killer") as again, the main Castlevania playable choice.
-International Track and Field having Simon again as the main Castlevania representative.

I went into detail much more in my old "Simon for Smash Switch" thread two years ago, pointing out how outisde of Alucard and SotN's popularity whitin the fandom, Simon's prominence is far more apparent than Alucard both inside and outside of Castlevania, where Simon appears in almost Double the games than Alucard does. The only times Alucard was chosen as the main CV representative over Simon or a Belmont were the japanese versions of Scribblenauts and Orecca Battle (the latter in which Simon appears in too anyway)

But im not sure the same can be said for Lloyd and Yuri. Yes Lloyd is more recognizable and appears in the likes of Soul Calibur Legends, but Yuri was chosen as the defacto Tales face for Project X Zone 1 and 2 alongside Flynt and Estelle for the sequel. and those crossovers appereances are far more noteworthy for Yuri than Alucard's.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

While i completely agree with this comparison, there's a small difference. While Alucard and his game are more popular, not only Alucard's game never got a sequel starring him unlike Simon, he really is not used as the main representative of Castlevania in most crossovers.

-Konami Wai Wai World, at the time Casltevania 1 was still fresh in people's minds so they used Simon Belmont (the "III") same goes with Konami Wai Wai World 2.
-Dream Mix TV World Fighters, despite coming out AFTER Symphony of the Night, used Simon Belmont as the main and only representative of CV in that game, fighting alongside Snake, Bomberman, Master Higgins, and Optimus Prime.
-Evolution Skateboarding having Simon Belmont (under the name "Vampire Killer") as again, the main Castlevania playable choice.
-International Track and Field having Simon again as the main Castlevania representative.

I went into detail much more in my old "Simon for Smash Switch" thread two years ago, pointing out how outisde of Alucard and SotN's popularity whitin the fandom, Simon's prominence is far more apparent than Alucard both inside and outside of Castlevania, where Simon appears in almost Double the games than Alucard does. The only times Alucard was chosen as the main CV representative over Simon or a Belmont were the japanese versions of Scribblenauts and Orecca Battle (the latter in which Simon appears in too anyway)

But im not sure the same can be said for Lloyd and Yuri. Yes Lloyd is more recognizable and appears in the likes of Soul Calibur Legends, but Yuri was chosen as the defacto Tales face for Project X Zone 1 and 2 alongside Flynt and Estelle for the sequel. and those crossovers appereances are far more noteworthy for Yuri than Alucard's.

Wait... You're the guy that originally ran the Simon support thread before he got in? I don't remember your former username, but I do remember you having a Detective Conan avatar correct?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

While i completely agree with this comparison, there's a small difference. While Alucard and his game are more popular, not only Alucard's game never got a sequel starring him unlike Simon, he really is not used as the main representative of Castlevania in most crossovers.

-Konami Wai Wai World, at the time Casltevania 1 was still fresh in people's minds so they used Simon Belmont (the "III") same goes with Konami Wai Wai World 2.
-Dream Mix TV World Fighters, despite coming out AFTER Symphony of the Night, used Simon Belmont as the main and only representative of CV in that game, fighting alongside Snake, Bomberman, Master Higgins, and Optimus Prime.
-Evolution Skateboarding having Simon Belmont (under the name "Vampire Killer") as again, the main Castlevania playable choice.
-International Track and Field having Simon again as the main Castlevania representative.

I went into detail much more in my old "Simon for Smash Switch" thread two years ago, pointing out how outisde of Alucard and SotN's popularity whitin the fandom, Simon's prominence is far more apparent than Alucard both inside and outside of Castlevania, where Simon appears in almost Double the games than Alucard does. The only times Alucard was chosen as the main CV representative over Simon or a Belmont were the japanese versions of Scribblenauts and Orecca Battle (the latter in which Simon appears in too anyway)

But im not sure the same can be said for Lloyd and Yuri. Yes Lloyd is more recognizable and appears in the likes of Soul Calibur Legends, but Yuri was chosen as the defacto Tales face for Project X Zone 1 and 2 alongside Flynt and Estelle for the sequel. and those crossovers appereances are far more noteworthy for Yuri than Alucard's.

So essentially, and more accurately, Yuri is meant to be akin to Simon?

Though I would compare Yuri more to Richter at this point. Since he's more popular in Japan, while Simon is more popular in the US, like Lloyd.

Another more accurate comparison is Yuri is still like Alucard in being a newer by higher popular character, Simon is the Cress, the first protagonist and highly notable, and Lloyd is the Richter, a very and highly popular character, but not the first core protagonist.

There's overall many ways to look at it. The only thing I'd say Lloyd even has in common with Simon is Western popularity at this point. Otherwise, they really aren't remotely similar. Besides, if we even go further into the comparison, that means Sakurai would make Lloyd and Yuri both playable, for Western and Eastern popularity. It goes without saying they comparisons start to fall flat in the context of Smash since they're not that similar.

 

[Spatulo]

I'm not saying Roger isn't credible which I believe he is, but what sources does he have that would make him credible? Being a YouTube partner?

Roger’s had inside info for years, due to having the right friends, being a brand ambassador, and literally being a former NoA employee

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Roger’s had inside info for years, due to having the right friends, being a brand ambassador, and literally being a former NoA employee

Holy **** I did not know Roger use to be a NoA employee.

 

[StrangeKitten]

So if Geno is most likely FP8 and Crash and Master Chief are likely FP9 and FP10 being saved for E3 of next year, that begs the question who is FP11 and potentially Ultimate's last newcomer? Since all the newcomers from here onwards are likely big 3rd party names, it would be weird to get all these big names only for us to end this game a small name or a slightly popular request like Lloyd or Dante.

Smash character waves often end on weaker notes. Bayonetta and Corrin, Ken and Incineroar, Byleth. I could easily see FP2 ending on Lloyd or Dante. Would still be the best-received ending of them all

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Smash character waves often end on weaker notes. Bayonetta and Corrin, Ken and Incineroar, Byleth. I could easily see FP2 ending on Lloyd or Dante. Would still be the best-received ending of them all

Regardless what people said about Wolf back in the day, I think he was a pretty good finale for Brawl.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Wait... You're the guy that originally ran the Simon support thread before he got in? I don't remember your former username, but I do remember you having a Detective Conan avatar correct?

Yes it's me, Tord the Red Leader, also known as Speedwagon five years ago, also known as Absolutely NOT Speedwagon in the Banjo for Smash thread, and Asriel Dream More.

and i know what avatar you're reffering to:


I have been posting here for five years, and is today the only real usage of "Social Media" that i use that is for talking and interaction and not for media consumption. Although i first discovered this website due to the "Lip for Smash 4" thread by ~ Valkyrie ~

I actually intended to leave the site for good after the November Direct, but this year due to the whole quarantine **** i wanted to go back because if i can't go outside i might need to talk to someone.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yes it's me, Tord the Red Leader, also known as Speedwagon five years ago, also known as Absolutely NOT Speedwagon in the Banjo for Smash thread, and Asriel Dream More.

and i know what avatar you're reffering to:
View attachment 289021

I have been posting here for five years, and is today the only real usage of "Social Media" that i use that is for talking and interaction and not for media consumption. Although i first discovered this website due to the "Lip for Smash 4" thread by ~ Valkyrie ~

I actually intended to leave the site for good after the November Direct, but this year due to the whole quarantine **** i wanted to go back because if i can't go outside i might need to talk to someone.

Whoa, long time no see. You were a previous mod, I think, or wanting to become one. Good to see you again, man.

...I doubt you remember me, if only cause of my name changes. I'm the Brian support girl. That's about the most memorable thing about me. At least, positively. >.>;

 

[Let Geno Smash]

Holy **** I did not know Roger use to be a NoA employee.

And to add to this:
-He said the 1st Nintendo give it to him (Yeah, Nintendo gives he games) was a Red Wii with NSMBW. And that game came out in 2009
-He said he knew that Dark Souls was coming to the Switch
-He said he has always knew some Smash characters who were in development like Incineroar, so he knew that grinch leak was fake.
He has said that Geno has been a lock sinse January

 

[AdamBel731]

You can believe that if you want, but it's absolutely not a real statement ever made.

In the end, I wouldn't be surprised if we got someone like Yuri either. Because his opinion on who should be playable blatantly has never once been said to us. Till it does, I don't take anything like this remotely seriously, since it's clearly "not the case".


No it doesn't. He thinks he's the best choice for a Mii costume in Smash. No ifs, ands, or buts. People are way overreading his statement as if it were something else

Not to make this the Lloyd thread (but I'd argue this is an interesting topic outside of just Lloyd specifically), but you're absolutely correct in that Sakurai never directly said Lloyd would be Tales of's rep if it had one in Smash. This is just for the Mii costume.

...but, why would Bandai Namco, who oversees the game, agree to Sakurai wanting to include Lloyd as the sole Tales of content to represent in Smash, if it weren't due to Lloyd basically being the Tales of mascot? I suppose there is always the chance that we could have a Tales of character plus the Lloyd Mii costume, but as of now this is the only Tales of representarepresentation in Smash and Sakurai felt like Lloyd should be the character to represent the series. It doesn't matter if he isn't a character, Sakurai chose to have Lloyd as the one and only Tales of content to represent the series. Just like Rathalos represents Monster Hunter in Smash, Sakurai picks the things he views as what represents the series the best (alongside what the companies think too). If Sakurai thought Yuri was the character to represent with Tales of, why on Earth would that not be the character to get the Mii costume? "Because Sakurai views Lloyd as just Mii costume material so that's why Lloyd got the Mii costume slot"? How does that make sense? Why would Sakurai choose the sole representation of Tales of in Smash be a character Sakurai wouldn't want to represent the series? Why would he go out of his way fo affirm that it "had to be Lloyd"? That didn't sound like Bandai Namco pressing their thumb down on him (which I doubt they'd do anyway), this sounds like Sakurai personally felt like Lloyd was the character to best represent the series. If it was Yuri, then he would've gotten the Mii costume. Simple as that.

 

[Deleted member]

This thread has went MH to Lloyd even he was brought up before now eh? But with that, I see why Nintendo and Sakurai would easily pick Lloyd. What Yuri has going for him is pretty much popularity. I believe TOS has the most mainstream presence having manga collections, novels, Drama CDs, a sequel, and an anime. I believe ToS is the best selling game in the series. So yes, Lloyd would be a very obvious pick.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Not to make this the Lloyd thread (but I'd argue this is an interesting topic outside of just Lloyd specifically), but you're absolutely correct in that Sakurai never directly said Lloyd would be Tales of's rep if it had one in Smash. This is just for the Mii costume.

...but, why would Bandai Namco, who oversees the game, agree to Sakurai wanting to include Lloyd as the sole Tales of content to represent in Smash, if it weren't due to Lloyd basically being the Tales of mascot? I suppose there is always the chance that we could have a Tales of character plus the Lloyd Mii costume, but as of now this is the only Tales of representarepresentation in Smash and Sakurai felt like Lloyd should be the character to represent the series. It doesn't matter if he isn't a character, Sakurai chose to have Lloyd as the one and only Tales of content to represent the series. Just like Rathalos represents Monster Hunter in Smash, Sakurai picks the things he views as what represents the series the best (alongside what the companies think too). If Sakurai thought Yuri was the character to represent with Tales of, why on Earth would that not be the character to get the Mii costume? "Because Sakurai views Lloyd as just Mii costume material so that's why Lloyd got the Mii costume slot"? How does that make sense? Why would Sakurai choose the sole representation of Tales of in Smash be a character Sakurai wouldn't want to represent the series? Why would he go out of his way fo affirm that it "had to be Lloyd"? That didn't sound like Bandai Namco pressing their thumb down on him (which I doubt they'd do anyway), this sounds like Sakurai personally felt like Lloyd was the character to best represent the series. If it was Yuri, then he would've gotten the Mii costume. Simple as that.

Because why would they say no to Sakurai? Remember, they outright respect him a lot and are part of his team.

Lloyd Irving is a massively popular character too. So it wouldn't matter whether he asked for Yuri or Lloyd. They'd say yes either way cause "easy sales", which is what matters to them.

I'm not saying this is a bad take, that he thinks Lloyd is the best option for the series as a whole. I'm saying that we don't have enough actual statements or evidence to definitely conclude this factor. Just that it's a good theory at best. I get what you mean, but I don't see how this is a knock against Yuri at all.

This thread has went MH to Lloyd even he was brought up before now eh? But with that, I see why Nintendo and Sakurai would easily pick Lloyd. What Yuri has going for him is pretty much popularity. I believe TOS has the most mainstream presence having manga collections, novels, Drama CDs, a sequel, and an anime. I believe ToS is the best selling game in the series. So yes, Lloyd would be a very obvious pick.

This is why the costume was fairly obvious at the time. I don't believe this directly correlates to now, but it makes sense that he was "there was nobody else" in context, yeah.

That said, yeah, we did go way too off-topic about this. I still want the citing on mii costumes, though. I keep hearing this, but no source. That's a huge statement and I legitimately would like to know if that's really the case or just a misunderstanding. I can't blame anyone for thinking it's a thing either, since I can see the logic of it. You can see such examples as Rabbids, who weren't playable, getting Spirits and a Mii Costume too. They are their own franchise, however, so it's not like it was them or Rayman(who admittedly requires more work to be a costume or playable either way. Detachable limbs clearly does require extra balance).

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Happy North American 16th Birthday to Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door!

Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door for the Gamecube was released on this day in North America, 16 years ago (2004) pic.twitter.com/2B3U8cWU97

— OnThisDayInGaming (@OnThisDayGaming) October 11, 2020

 

[ForsakenM]

Well, there is Sora who is not only as popular or perhaps more popular than Geno but would make more money for them. And there is Lara Croft who is probably the most iconic female gaming protagonist that has 7 Guinness world records and comes from Square-Enix's 3rd best selling franchise with almost 80 million in sales:

Guinness World Records - WikiRaider

www.wikiraider.com

Best-selling Square Enix games

This article covers the best-selling Square Enix games and franchises. This includes games made by Squaresoft, Enix, and their 2003 merged corporation, Square Enix. It also includes games by its acquired subsidiaries, Eidos and Taito, from before and after their consolidation. It does not...

vgsales.fandom.com

So yeah, Geno still has competition within Square-Enix.



So if Geno is most likely FP8 and Crash and Master Chief are likely FP9 and FP10 being saved for E3 of next year, that begs the question who is FP11 and potentially Ultimate's last newcomer? Since all the newcomers from here onwards are likely big 3rd party names, it would be weird to get all these big names only for us to end this game a small name or a slightly popular request like Lloyd or Dante.

Boy, this post is way off in so many ways.

First off, Geno has no real competition at all when it comes to pure fan picks, and that's why he's inevitable.

Ridley and King K Rool were the two big 1st Party 'Dream On' fan picks, B&K and Geno are the two biggest 3rd Party 'Dream On' fan picks.

Sora was never competition because of how wonky it would be to negotiate for him as he is essentially a Disney rep and how previous KH content has always been limited time and all by itself, which means that Sora would only ever happen as a stand alone DLC pack like how all the DLC was done for Smash 4. Imran Khan has clarified an early statement that suggests that Sora was actually in talks for Ultimate and they fell through. The talks could happen again and he COULD still make it for Ultimate, but it's highly unlikely and it won't be for this pass for sure. Thus, Sora is not competition for Geno.

Lara Croft was very iconic back in the day but she has very much fallen from grace in recent years it would seem, based on numbers. The original reboot in 2013 was really well received but the sequels really fell off and while sales aren't really a factor it can determine popularity and it seems as though the games were a little too samey down the road and the redesign threw a lot of folks off. 4 million for the most recent title isn't anything to sneeze at, and 75-80 million copies int he franchise is pretty damn good, but companies often expect really huge numbers to determine success and honestly, you just don't see as many people talking about Lara. For a more anecdotal and closer to home example, Geno is the #1 Newcomer Support Thread where as I couldn't even find a unique thread for Lara here: I only found her talked about in a thread dedicated to supporting ALL Square Enix characters and she's even often mentioned as more of an afterthought. For a less anecdotal bit of evidence, the Mega Smash Poll done by Source Gaming in June shows Lara her as the 35th most voted character with 148 votes. In contrast, Geno is #2 with 926 votes, and then the next Square rep is Sora at #4 with 774 votes, and then there is a gap until #17 with 2B at 327 votes, and there are no more Square characters until Lara. This goes to show you how much crossover there is with Tomb Raider and Smash as opposed to SMRPG or Kingdom Hearts.

So no, Geno has no competition within Square Enix, and Paper Mario has lost it's chance as well with the Origami King Spirit Event no matter what anyone may say to try and deny the reality behind Geno's chances.

As for your latter comment, Chief is no where near this pass. Chief is more than likely in Vol 3 and will be a big reveal at that time. Crash is almost a given, and Lloyd and Dante are not 'slightly popular' by any means. Lloyd is the only realistic Bamco rep placed 23rd with 263 votes in that Mega Smash Poll, the highest of any Bamco character. Nazyrus has already given all the evidence to prove that despite him not really having games Lloyd is still one of the most popular Tales Of characters even to this day and even though Dante has mostly been heavy bandwagoning due to an exchange on Twitter and a stupid assumption about what ended up being Byleth's reveal date, this has carried on for quite a while and landed at #5 with 773 votes on that same poll, though I would liek to point out that Phoenix Wright was #10 with 588 votes, so it really is a toss up between these two when it comes to if we even get a Capcom rep later on.

Honestly, the characters to be wary of are Geno, Lloyd, Hayabusa and Crash. They have the most going for them right now, so don't sleep on them, and be ready for the glory of Genovember!

 

[pinshadow]

Well ANYWAY, this isn't the Lloyd/Yuri/Tales thread, it's the Geno thread. As for what Roger is saying, 16th is probably a Partner Showcase. it's obvious he knows stuff but take it with a grain of salt, he's not going to come out and say "lol Geno is in" if he does know, and he almost certainly doesn't.

Something I've sort of been stuck on since the Steve reveal is the scheduling of everything at this point compared to what was planned originally.

• Min Min was likely going to be an Spring release before stuff got delayed, right? So that means Steve and 8 were likely the E3 reveals? So what, are we seeing a 5+ month delay for 8's reveal? I guess, but why? What exactly is the hold up? Lack of a venue I guess, but still.
• December 2021? What IS the deal with that? They thought it would take almost 2 years to get through Pass 2? Obviously not, since after the delays it's still December 2021, so ok, it WAS a placeholder date, but why were they so unsure about that? It wasn't like that for Pass 1, February 2020, last character released end of January. Smash is generally pretty good at sticking to dates, atleast with DLC.
• So then when were characters originally meant to be revealed? Would we have seen 9 by now if it weren't for development issues? Would we have gotten all the characters before E3 2021, or was 6 always going to be an E3 2021 character? The last character is an E3 tier reveal, in a series infamous for ending on misses? And what about 5, were they also meant to be at E3 2021, or a Spring release? Are we going PAST E3 2021 now, if they have December 2021 as a firm deadline?

Something just feels really wrong about this to me. Stuff doesn't really add up in my head and I'm wondering if we really are misconstruing things a bit.

 

[Trevenant]

I've heard people claim that Yuri was so popular in Japan in the Smash polls that they had to ban the Yuri from the polls for being too popularity. Don't ask me where the source for this information is as I've only heard people claiming that. Also, Sakurai has gone on record to pretty much say if a Tales rep ever get's into Smash it will most likely be Lloyd.



I completely agree with you on the scenario that Nintendo chooses Lara or Sora over Geno because of marketing purposes.

That's kind of where the discussion started as Sakurai never said much notable aside from saying Lloyd was the most obvious choice for a mii outfit and then laughing about it which is largely misconstrued to be Sakurai saying Lloyd would be the de facto PLAYABLE character. Yuri was definitely banned in certain polls so idk if Tales of does get a rep and assuming the main factor for Lloyd's costume wasn't actually popularity then maybe Yuri would be prioritised.

Guess it depends if the reason Sakurai viewed Lloyd as the most notable for telling Tales Of with Lloyd is shared with Nintendo's factors and such for them to prioritise one or the other. That's assuming we even get a Tales Of character which I'm really sceptical on due to pretty much all the Namco costumes returning aside from Lloyd which means he will probably return in the next update imo considering the last 2 were dripfed.

I'll get back on topic now.

 

[CannonStreak]

Well ANYWAY, this isn't the Lloyd/Yuri/Tales thread, it's the Geno thread. As for what Roger is saying, 16th is probably a Partner Showcase. it's obvious he knows stuff but take it with a grain of salt, he's not going to come out and say "lol Geno is in" if he does know, and he almost certainly doesn't.

Something I've sort of been stuck on since the Steve reveal is the scheduling of everything at this point compared to what was planned originally.

• Min Min was likely going to be an Spring release before stuff got delayed, right? So that means Steve and 8 were likely the E3 reveals? So what, are we seeing a 5+ month delay for 8's reveal? I guess, but why? What exactly is the hold up? Lack of a venue I guess, but still.
• December 2021? What IS the deal with that? They thought it would take almost 2 years to get through Pass 2? Obviously not, since after the delays it's still December 2021, so ok, it WAS a placeholder date, but why were they so unsure about that? It wasn't like that for Pass 1, February 2020, last character released end of January. Smash is generally pretty good at sticking to dates, atleast with DLC.
• So then when were characters originally meant to be revealed? Would we have seen 9 by now if it weren't for development issues? Would we have gotten all the characters before E3 2021, or was 6 always going to be an E3 2021 character? The last character is an E3 tier reveal, in a series infamous for ending on misses? And what about 5, were they also meant to be at E3 2021, or a Spring release? Are we going PAST E3 2021 now, if they have December 2021 as a firm deadline?

View attachment 289022
Something just feels really wrong about this to me. Stuff doesn't really add up in my head and I'm wondering if we really are misconstruing things a bit.

About what you said about Roger, I did not say I thought he said something Geno related. I just am interested in what is going to happen that he hinted at, assuming it is not a Partners Showcase.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I doubt we would've seen 8 remotely at e3. Remember clearly that Min Min was delayed due to gameplay issues. Covid also does affect the team, as constantly stated. She was probably meant for April instead of June at best. This would've left room and time for one more character at most. Most likely, 8 was going to be shown later on around October instead of Steve.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if Steve was going to be 8 instead with 7 being someone else. The constant delays and Covid likely changed their schedule. There's a good chance Steve was meant to be around the time of Minecon for a reveal. That said, he absolutely would've made sense for e3 too. No denying that. He's literally the biggest 3rd party in the pass at this time.

 

[7NATOR]

Rogersbase said Geno was a lock, Since Janurary?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Rogersbase said Geno was a lock, Since Janurary?

I'd love to see the citing on this too.

Cause yeah, with hos majorly reputable he is, that's more than enough to pretty much say "he's in". Albeit, we all know rumors should be taken with a grain of salt, even the highly credible guys(Verge, for instance).

 

[Droodle]

Oh, they definitely wanted to focus on Dragon Quest. Multiple IP owners are part of the IP itself as well as the costumes. They also were blatantly advertising it and the only thing that wasn't DQ was the amiibo shown off.

As for a Premium, I could see it happen, but only if Geno isn't playable. Upgrading him is giving more fanservice when it comes to the business side of things. People need to remember, that in reality, Sakurai does not see Costumes, AT's, Spirits, etc. as some kind of slap in the face. Never have and never will. He sees it purely as fanservice. This is a developer and business side decision. The entire point behind them is to please the fans. I doubt we'd see the regular costume, unless it's gotten later while Geno is playable. Frankly, they probably scrapped it when negotiating for the spirit.

Now, something of interest is that there's the rumor Cloud was licensed for Ultimate at the same time as 4. Worth noting that if this is true, it's possible all the Mii costumes from Cloud/Corrin/Bayonetta were licensed at the same time. That includes Chocobo, Gil, Tails, and Knuckles. We saw three of these already back. This would be the only ones licensed. Now keep in mind DLC was greenlit around 2017(or it was 2016. I can't remember which July). That also means that figuring if Mii costumes should be DLC would come up. If so, that means those 5 costumes would be looked at again overall. Now, if Geno's costume was licensed to come back(and not renegotiated when the spirits were), whether or not Geno is playable, they're going to still bring it back anyway because they already paid for it. Premium does require extra licensing, but that's also plausible anyway for Pass 2 due to situations coming up(like Hero's presentation being Dragon Quest only), and around that time we also got Pass 2 greenlit. It goes without saying they can renegotiate things more than once. There's no "hard number of times to talk" as is.

I still think he's going to be playable, and I see his regular costume coming back as is. I don't think any costumes are scrapped at all. Lloyd Irving is the only character I'm iffy on among the remaining costumes. Monster Hunter looks in a pretty good shape right now.

I'm aware this is an unpopular opinion on how costumes work, but I just don't see any reason for them to scrap if it's still licensed. It's a waste of money. They'll literally negotiate it so they get their money back, or more items in return for not using the costume. If it doesn't come back, and we don't see Geno, then it simply was never licensed for Ultimate or they chose to remove its usage and got spirits instead. Licensing and talks are actually quite complicated and a lot can happen to begin with.


...You know they have to license using that music in the presentation, right? That means extra money unneeded. They simply didn't license it.

The idea they were removed from the presentation is the companies simply deciding that it should be DQ only. We've got 3+ companies who are all picky deciding this.

That doesn't mean a SE character is coming or not, but that in itself wouldn't matter in this case. They also already had DLC greenlit for Pass 2 by this time(according to the only rumors known from Imran Kahn. And to be fair, he is highly credible), meaning Geno and Chocobo had multiple characters to return with, not just SE, if needed. So the SE part means nothing in the end. More DLC existing is more than enough reason to move the costumes as is(assuming as I noted before, they were licensed for Ultimate, which we don't know for sure).

Basically, there's multiple reasons to move the costumes. SE getting another character is just one viable one, but not the only reason whatsoever. Now to be fair, seeing the current pass, I do think one is coming, whether or not it's Geno remains to be seen.

I pretty much agree with you, it's pretty clear that the DQ presentation was specifically created to focus on Dragon Quest (moreso than any other fighter yet). I've brought up the argument beforehand too. I imagine that Square and Nintendo had an advertising agreement of exactly what can be shown off at the presentation, and how it should focus on the "crossover" aspect of Hero vs Hero. The only time it isn't that is after the "Hero" segment is already essentially over (during the classic portion with Hero killing slime kirby), and they focus on version 4.0 and the rest of the pass.

I don't think it's outrageous that they might've not wanted any focus on series other than DQ for that presentation. And it's not like Geno is the only outlier there, considering that Chocobo is also missing. And "it would've been suspicious if Geno was the only one missing" isn't really a viable argument anymore considering that Lloyd is the only Namco costume still missing; and a good chunk of people don't find it too weird.

That said, I still think Geno has a pretty solid shot of being playable via the virtue of being a requested character.

A big thing actually came with Steve the other day that significantly cripples the "premium costume" argument and Rasputin of the Dark Brotherhood pointed it out to me. Take a look at these. Here are Heihachi and Gil in Smash 4:

View attachment 288999
View attachment 289000

Now here's Heihachi and Gil in Ultimate:

View attachment 289001
View attachment 289002

Notice anything? Both got very noticeable glow-ups, especially Gil. It's not just the difference between Smash 4 and Ultimate's graphic engines either. Both have much more detail. You notice it most with Heihachi's gi (especially his pants) and Gil's sword, helmet, and, um, skirt thingy. As far as I'm aware, these are the first Smash 4 costumes to get this much TLC, adding to why they were delayed this long. This drives a sharp stick in the eye to the "premium costume" argument because if Geno and Lloyd really are ultimately doomed to be costumes, they're getting a glow up, not an overhaul like a ****in' mascot head. It's very interesting because it suggests the remaining missing costumes have been "upgraded" in some way, even if they just wind up looking noticeably nicer.

But to be frank, all Premium costumes so far kind of fit the "proportions" to make it look natural. Sans, Cuphead, Vault Boy, and Bomberman all fit this. Heihachi and Gil really don't fit that sort of upgrade (the mii is too lean to be Heihachi, and Gil's costume currently is pretty accurate unless you go for modern depictions; all he needs is some hair).

I doubt Lloyd or MH will be upgraded to premium costumes too, because as characters they don't have the body type to really make it work and look "good". Geno though has the ability to make it work, his Smash 4 costume only has that awful face; but otherwise looks solid. Replace the face, and he could "look" like Geno.

Not saying Geno will be a premium mii, but just that you can't compare him Heihachi and Gil, because those characters don't fit the "mold" of a good looking premium mii anyways.

Seeing as how Geno and Lloyd were talked about the most fondly in the past by Sakurai and are still missing as costumes it seems pretty simple to assume that they are in the game as additions to the roster.

Sakurai has also said that he wanted to make Heihachi a character in Smash 4, and that he would have been in if he could adapt TEKKEN properly. And if we go back in Smash 4, it is highly likely that the Chorus Kids were cut for whatever reason. And going even further back there was Dixie and Tetra in brawl, and Ayumi Tachibana in Melee (heck Famicom Detective Club is getting a Remake next year). Sakurai has considered many characters in the past, not a lot of them made the cut into Ultimate.

Boy, this post is way off in so many ways.

First off, Geno has no real competition at all when it comes to pure fan picks, and that's why he's inevitable.

Ridley and King K Rool were the two big 1st Party 'Dream On' fan picks, B&K and Geno are the two biggest 3rd Party 'Dream On' fan picks.

Sora was never competition because of how wonky it would be to negotiate for him as he is essentially a Disney rep and how previous KH content has always been limited time and all by itself, which means that Sora would only ever happen as a stand alone DLC pack like how all the DLC was done for Smash 4. Imran Khan has clarified an early statement that suggests that Sora was actually in talks for Ultimate and they fell through. The talks could happen again and he COULD still make it for Ultimate, but it's highly unlikely and it won't be for this pass for sure. Thus, Sora is not competition for Geno.

Lara Croft was very iconic back in the day but she has very much fallen from grace in recent years it would seem, based on numbers. The original reboot in 2013 was really well received but the sequels really fell off and while sales aren't really a factor it can determine popularity and it seems as though the games were a little too samey down the road and the redesign threw a lot of folks off. 4 million for the most recent title isn't anything to sneeze at, and 75-80 million copies int he franchise is pretty damn good, but companies often expect really huge numbers to determine success and honestly, you just don't see as many people talking about Lara. For a more anecdotal and closer to home example, Geno is the #1 Newcomer Support Thread where as I couldn't even find a unique thread for Lara here: I only found her talked about in a thread dedicated to supporting ALL Square Enix characters and she's even often mentioned as more of an afterthought. For a less anecdotal bit of evidence, the Mega Smash Poll done by Source Gaming in June shows Lara her as the 35th most voted character with 148 votes. In contrast, Geno is #2 with 926 votes, and then the next Square rep is Sora at #4 with 774 votes, and then there is a gap until #17 with 2B at 327 votes, and there are no more Square characters until Lara. This goes to show you how much crossover there is with Tomb Raider and Smash as opposed to SMRPG or Kingdom Hearts.

So no, Geno has no competition within Square Enix, and Paper Mario has lost it's chance as well with the Origami King Spirit Event no matter what anyone may say to try and deny the reality behind Geno's chances.

As for your latter comment, Chief is no where near this pass. Chief is more than likely in Vol 3 and will be a big reveal at that time. Crash is almost a given, and Lloyd and Dante are not 'slightly popular' by any means. Lloyd is the only realistic Bamco rep placed 23rd with 263 votes in that Mega Smash Poll, the highest of any Bamco character. Nazyrus has already given all the evidence to prove that despite him not really having games Lloyd is still one of the most popular Tales Of characters even to this day and even though Dante has mostly been heavy bandwagoning due to an exchange on Twitter and a stupid assumption about what ended up being Byleth's reveal date, this has carried on for quite a while and landed at #5 with 773 votes on that same poll, though I would liek to point out that Phoenix Wright was #10 with 588 votes, so it really is a toss up between these two when it comes to if we even get a Capcom rep later on.

Honestly, the characters to be wary of are Geno, Lloyd, Hayabusa and Crash. They have the most going for them right now, so don't sleep on them, and be ready for the glory of Genovember!

This assumes fan demand is the end all, be all of the world. In Pass 1, we got 2 characters that were solidly requested; but Joker, Terry, and Byleth were not on many peoples radar. Heck, I'm pretty sure there were a dozen first party characters that they could have chosen that would have been far better received than Byleth.

So far in this pass, we have gotten 1 requested character (Steve); and Min Min wasn't requested at all until after ARMS was already confirmed. So that doesn't really indicate that this pass will be all fan-favorites. Not to mention Nintendo has the habit of ending off Base/DLC with more recent 1st party characters.

And as for the Lloyd vs Yuri talks it's simple:
Lloyd = Sakurai pick
Yuri = Nintendo pick (probably due to Vesperia being on the Switch)
I dunno who will get in, or if we'll even get one of them.
And Yuri isn't the Alucard of Tales, and Lloyd isn't the Belmonts. Comparing them isn't really apt. Castlevania 90% of the time revolves around the age old fight between the Belmonts and Dracula; Alucard is a major character that got his own games here and there, but still the central conflict of Castlevania has always been Belmonts vs Dracula.

Rogersbase said Geno was a lock, Since Janurary?

Rogersbase has said everyone is a lock at some point in time. I think he's said Rex, Geno, Monster Hunter, Master Chief, Sephiroth, 2B, Dante, Travis are all really likely/locks at some point in time. His statements aren't really gospel.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

...Ah, didn't realize that was speculation on Rogersbase part. Thank you, Droodle. That sucks.

I would've loved a proper leak of him being in at some point.

Good prediction, imo, but yeah.

On another note, I should look into more Super Mario RPG mods. Namely, to see if there's any actual character mods. It'd be cool to play as the Axem Rangers(and actually would work perfectly. 5 character and all. You'd still have the issues of weapons turning you into someone else either way, and I can imagine a similar issue if you replaced the Axem Rangers with the regular characters).

Now to think of who is who; Red would be Mario, Pink is Toadstool, Blue is Geno, Black is Bowser, and Green is Mallow, I guess? Mallow is the only non-matching color outright, but he's a frog-like cloud person, so I guess?

 

[Droodle]

...Ah, didn't realize that was speculation on Rogersbase part. Thank you, Droodle. That sucks.

I would've loved a proper leak of him being in at some point.

Good prediction, imo, but yeah.

On another note, I should look into more Super Mario RPG mods. Namely, to see if there's any actual character mods. It'd be cool to play as the Axem Rangers(and actually would work perfectly. 5 character and all. You'd still have the issues of weapons turning you into someone else either way, and I can imagine a similar issue if you replaced the Axem Rangers with the regular characters).

Now to think of who is who; Red would be Mario, Pink is Toadstool, Blue is Geno, Black is Bowser, and Green is Mallow, I guess? Mallow is the only non-matching color outright, but he's a frog-like cloud person, so I guess?

Even if you go back to the video where he mentioned the Mario RPG rumors, shortly after he also mentioned that he thinks that the next reveal would be a shadowdrop around game awards, and Steve directly contradicts that. He's mostly a speculator who may get some vague information early due to being an ambassador, but he doesn't know who the Smash characters are or when they'll get revealed.

Of course, the rumors he mentioned could still be true. And we could both get both SMRPG Sequel and Geno in Smash, but like he himself mentioned; they're just rumors.

EDIT; if anyone wants to see his predictions after Steve,

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Even if you go back to the video where he mentioned the Mario RPG rumors, shortly after he also mentioned that he thinks that the next reveal would be a shadowdrop around game awards, and Steve directly contradicts that. He's mostly a speculator who may get some vague information early due to being an ambassador, but he doesn't know who the Smash characters are or when they'll get revealed.

Of course, the rumors he mentioned could still be true. And we could both get both SMRPG Sequel and Geno in Smash, but like he himself mentioned; they're just rumors.

EDIT; if anyone wants to see his predictions after Steve,
View attachment 289024

Thanks for the source!

Now to see if any of my Pass 2 list is in. ...Considering I chose almost all oddball characters, Scorpion and Fulgore are the only ones even plausible, and I feel Fulgore's dead in the water after Steve. Cause he can't compete with Master Chief.

On another tangent, I don't see any chance for a Volume 3 with how long it's taking to even getting the second character now. It's just going to be this set. Sure, they have extra slots, but that doesn't mean they will be filled. The only way I could see those slots used is a quick Echo Pass(and no, Master Chief wouldn't be an Echo for Doom Slayer, heh), and I somewhat doubt that idea anyway. I won't deny it could be neat; Dixie, Octoling, Shadow, Black Shadow(of Ganondorf for the last one, using mainly his Brawl/4 moveset, which fits the character far better than Falcon does at this point) could be a potential and fun Echo set. It'd also be a second but awesome Sonic character. There's others who could be there in place of Dixie, obviously, but yeah, she's Echo material if she's Chrom-like. Not that I support that particular design(I think she'd be best with a partner character, similar to her original plans back in Brawl), but eh.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I've heard people claim that Yuri was so popular in Japan in the Smash polls that they had to ban the Yuri from the polls for being too popularity.

You got the premise right but the wrong poll. The polls he was super popular in where the official Tales of popularity polls. He constantly got first place in the poll so they took him off and put him in the Hall of Fame in 2013
well **** me, im late, ignore

 

[MattX20]

Unless the costume comes back, Geno's in good shape. I've no reason to doubt his chances right now since Square's main IPs are in Smash prominently

 

[Mr. Peepee]

Yeah, as I've said before, I can see Tomb Raider and Nier Automata having a spirit event or Mii Costume at this point, Geno's Mii Costume still MIA, Sakurai noting Geno's popularity, and spirits not deconfirming characters are the biggest three things going in Geno's favor!

Unless the costume comes back, Geno's in good shape. I've no reason to doubt his chances right now since Square's main IPs are in Smash prominently