Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[MattX20]

Sakurai knows how heavily demanded Geno is, and Nintendo paid attention to his work and most likely that 2016 interview. They know Geno's one of the most heavily requested, on top of being a character tied to their mascot IP. I don't think we've to worry much about his chances this time around.

 

[ctt4lfecw]

Sakurai knows how heavily demanded Geno is, and Nintendo paid attention to his work and most likely that 2016 interview. They know Geno's one of the most heavily requested, on top of being a character tied to their mascot IP. I don't think we've to worry much about his chances this time around.

This. If the fans know it, you can bet Sakurai does too.

 

[AdamBel731]

Sakurai knows how heavily demanded Geno is, and Nintendo paid attention to his work and most likely that 2016 interview. They know Geno's one of the most heavily requested, on top of being a character tied to their mascot IP. I don't think we've to worry much about his chances this time around.

I've said this before, but if Sakurai held back the Geno and Lloyd Mii costumes for this long, that would actually be pretty insensitive for them to only come back (unless bringing them back was outside of Sakurai's control which is possible). Unlike the final Smash Direct on that fabeled November, Isaac, Shadow, and so on being held back as Assist Trophies was saddening, but whether people want to admit it or not, Sakurai has never publicly acknowledged the popularity of Isaac, Shadow, Skull Kid, etc. Whereas he has for Lloyd and especially Geno. Sakurai has publicly acknowledged that the characters are popular within the Smash community, whereas we all just speculate how well characters like Isaac did on the Smash Ballot.

My point is that it is still incredibly suspicious Lloyd and especially Geno's costume haven't returned yet. Lloyd I'm iffy on since other Smash 4 Bandai Namco costumes have been spread out one by one with no Bandai Namco character (Heihachi and Gil), but Lloyd is more popular of a request than any of those and, again, Sakurai has acknowledged Lloyd's popularity. My only issue is that I actually could potentially see Lloyd's costume being held.

Geno having his Smash 4 costume seems really unlikely unless it were a premium Mii costume because, again, Sakurai has not only expressed his desire to add Geno, but also has acknowledged his hardcore Smash fanbase popularity, his Mii costume was the only one to get a special splash screen in Smash 4 (showing the developers recognized its importance), and Square Enix typically don't add content unless they're flying solo. It is still weird that Geno and Chocobo costumes weren't brought back with Hero. Especially Chocobo since that is purely Square Enix, whereas Geno is a cross between Mario and Square. Someone could make the argument Geno's costume could come with Waluigi or Paper Mario or some other Mario character (which I don't agree with), but then where does Chocobo go? I know some people are like, "Oh they wanted to purely focus on Dragon Quest content," but the thing is that I highly doubt the Mii costumes would've been held back unless another Square Enix character is coming.

 

[Deleted member]

I've said this before, but if Sakurai held back the Geno and Lloyd Mii costumes for this long, that would actually be pretty insensitive for them to only come back (unless bringing them back was outside of Sakurai's control which is possible). Unlike the final Smash Direct on that fabeled November, Isaac, Shadow, and so on being held back as Assist Trophies was saddening, but whether people want to admit it or not, Sakurai has never publicly acknowledged the popularity of Isaac, Shadow, Skull Kid, etc. Whereas he has for Lloyd and especially Geno. Sakurai has publicly acknowledged that the characters are popular within the Smash community, whereas we all just speculate how well characters like Isaac did on the Smash Ballot.

My point is that it is still incredibly suspicious Lloyd and especially Geno's costume haven't returned yet. Lloyd I'm iffy on since other Smash 4 Bandai Namco costumes have been spread out one by one with no Bandai Namco character (Heihachi and Gil), but Lloyd is more popular of a request than any of those and, again, Sakurai has acknowledged Lloyd's popularity. My only issue is that I actually could potentially see Lloyd's costume being held.

Geno having his Smash 4 costume seems really unlikely unless it were a premium Mii costume because, again, Sakurai has not only expressed his desire to add Geno, but also has acknowledged his hardcore Smash fanbase popularity, his Mii costume was the only one to get a special splash screen in Smash 4 (showing the developers recognized its importance), and Square Enix typically don't add content unless they're flying solo. It is still weird that Geno and Chocobo costumes weren't brought back with Hero. Especially Chocobo since that is purely Square Enix, whereas Geno is a cross between Mario and Square. Someone could make the argument Geno's costume could come with Waluigi or Paper Mario or some other Mario character (which I don't agree with), but then where does Chocobo go? I know some people are like, "Oh they wanted to purely focus on Dragon Quest content," but the thing is that I highly doubt the Mii costumes would've been held back unless another Square Enix character is coming.

That DQ argument is not even that certain. I get that they want to promote DQ11 S, but these costumes literally get less than 20 seconds of screen time. I seriously doubt that they would be that particular. And I really doubt a brief appearance of these costumes would ruin promotion. If they want everything DQ, don’t you think they would of played DQ music instead of battlefield in the costumes segment? May of been a nitpick but still, it’s odd they didn’t play any DQ music. Or I mean, these costumes are missing because there might be another Square character perhaps Geno.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I've said this before, but if Sakurai held back the Geno and Lloyd Mii costumes for this long, that would actually be pretty insensitive for them to only come back (unless bringing them back was outside of Sakurai's control which is possible). Unlike the final Smash Direct on that fabeled November, Isaac, Shadow, and so on being held back as Assist Trophies was saddening, but whether people want to admit it or not, Sakurai has never publicly acknowledged the popularity of Isaac, Shadow, Skull Kid, etc. Whereas he has for Lloyd and especially Geno. Sakurai has publicly acknowledged that the characters are popular within the Smash community, whereas we all just speculate how well characters like Isaac did on the Smash Ballot.

My point is that it is still incredibly suspicious Lloyd and especially Geno's costume haven't returned yet. Lloyd I'm iffy on since other Smash 4 Bandai Namco costumes have been spread out one by one with no Bandai Namco character (Heihachi and Gil), but Lloyd is more popular of a request than any of those and, again, Sakurai has acknowledged Lloyd's popularity. My only issue is that I actually could potentially see Lloyd's costume being held.

Geno having his Smash 4 costume seems really unlikely unless it were a premium Mii costume because, again, Sakurai has not only expressed his desire to add Geno, but also has acknowledged his hardcore Smash fanbase popularity, his Mii costume was the only one to get a special splash screen in Smash 4 (showing the developers recognized its importance), and Square Enix typically don't add content unless they're flying solo. It is still weird that Geno and Chocobo costumes weren't brought back with Hero. Especially Chocobo since that is purely Square Enix, whereas Geno is a cross between Mario and Square. Someone could make the argument Geno's costume could come with Waluigi or Paper Mario or some other Mario character (which I don't agree with), but then where does Chocobo go? I know some people are like, "Oh they wanted to purely focus on Dragon Quest content," but the thing is that I highly doubt the Mii costumes would've been held back unless another Square Enix character is coming.

Oh, they definitely wanted to focus on Dragon Quest. Multiple IP owners are part of the IP itself as well as the costumes. They also were blatantly advertising it and the only thing that wasn't DQ was the amiibo shown off.

As for a Premium, I could see it happen, but only if Geno isn't playable. Upgrading him is giving more fanservice when it comes to the business side of things. People need to remember, that in reality, Sakurai does not see Costumes, AT's, Spirits, etc. as some kind of slap in the face. Never have and never will. He sees it purely as fanservice. This is a developer and business side decision. The entire point behind them is to please the fans. I doubt we'd see the regular costume, unless it's gotten later while Geno is playable. Frankly, they probably scrapped it when negotiating for the spirit.

Now, something of interest is that there's the rumor Cloud was licensed for Ultimate at the same time as 4. Worth noting that if this is true, it's possible all the Mii costumes from Cloud/Corrin/Bayonetta were licensed at the same time. That includes Chocobo, Gil, Tails, and Knuckles. We saw three of these already back. This would be the only ones licensed. Now keep in mind DLC was greenlit around 2017(or it was 2016. I can't remember which July). That also means that figuring if Mii costumes should be DLC would come up. If so, that means those 5 costumes would be looked at again overall. Now, if Geno's costume was licensed to come back(and not renegotiated when the spirits were), whether or not Geno is playable, they're going to still bring it back anyway because they already paid for it. Premium does require extra licensing, but that's also plausible anyway for Pass 2 due to situations coming up(like Hero's presentation being Dragon Quest only), and around that time we also got Pass 2 greenlit. It goes without saying they can renegotiate things more than once. There's no "hard number of times to talk" as is.

I still think he's going to be playable, and I see his regular costume coming back as is. I don't think any costumes are scrapped at all. Lloyd Irving is the only character I'm iffy on among the remaining costumes. Monster Hunter looks in a pretty good shape right now.

I'm aware this is an unpopular opinion on how costumes work, but I just don't see any reason for them to scrap if it's still licensed. It's a waste of money. They'll literally negotiate it so they get their money back, or more items in return for not using the costume. If it doesn't come back, and we don't see Geno, then it simply was never licensed for Ultimate or they chose to remove its usage and got spirits instead. Licensing and talks are actually quite complicated and a lot can happen to begin with.

That DQ argument is not even that certain. I get that they want to promote DQ11 S, but these costumes literally get less than 20 seconds of screen time. I seriously doubt that they would be that particular. And I really doubt a brief appearance of these costumes would ruin promotion. If they want everything DQ, don’t you think they would of played DQ music instead of battlefield in the costumes segment? May of been a nitpick but still, it’s odd they didn’t play any DQ music. Or I mean, these costumes are missing because there might be another Square character perhaps Geno.

...You know they have to license using that music in the presentation, right? That means extra money unneeded. They simply didn't license it.

The idea they were removed from the presentation is the companies simply deciding that it should be DQ only. We've got 3+ companies who are all picky deciding this.

That doesn't mean a SE character is coming or not, but that in itself wouldn't matter in this case. They also already had DLC greenlit for Pass 2 by this time(according to the only rumors known from Imran Kahn. And to be fair, he is highly credible), meaning Geno and Chocobo had multiple characters to return with, not just SE, if needed. So the SE part means nothing in the end. More DLC existing is more than enough reason to move the costumes as is(assuming as I noted before, they were licensed for Ultimate, which we don't know for sure).

Basically, there's multiple reasons to move the costumes. SE getting another character is just one viable one, but not the only reason whatsoever. Now to be fair, seeing the current pass, I do think one is coming, whether or not it's Geno remains to be seen.

 

[Heoj]

Yeh Ive never understood it when people think a premium geno mii is likely, i mean imo that's literally impossible. These premium miis work the best when its these super shocking and surprising characters that people usually don't talk seriously about. Sans, Cuphead and Fallout dude work because they werent that talked about. Even Bomberman works in a sense since imo im not expecting any AT upgrades so I think this was the best bomberman could have gotten. That's why a lot of people felt gutted when the travis mii showed up as he was in a pretty good spot to become a full fighter.

Now take Geno, a Banjo-esque pure fan request character who not only already received a "premium" mii in the sense that it was the only smash 4 mii to get a splash screen, as well as the fact that that costume was solely added as a sort of "I cant make geno playable right now but ya'll are cool and so is geno so here you go"
A premium geno mii would be quite literally a repeat of the old costume. So in my eyes it means nothing to "improve" the costume by adding the full head or adjusting the proportions or whatever, since it would be sakurai saying "yeh it still aint happening, but how about this?" and that's just a kick in the nuts, and id argue its far worse than even the likes of shadow and Isaac's assist reveals in the November direct.

Then there's also how all mii costumes, premium or not, cost the same amount of money, so imo its pointless to upgrade an already existing mii costume and selling it for the same price. So its either the smash 4 costume comes back unchanged, or geno is fully playable, which the latter is far more likely as geno didn't come back with hero, and I will never understand how people think square wanted to keep geno away just so dragon quest could "shine more". I don't see sakurai and nintendo purposefully holding a costume and a mii hat in all their super computers just sitting and collecting dust for well over a year just so DQ could get that extra 0.3% more coverage.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, they definitely wanted to focus on Dragon Quest. Multiple IP owners are part of the IP itself as well as the costumes. They also were blatantly advertising it and the only thing that wasn't DQ was the amiibo shown off.

As for a Premium, I could see it happen, but only if Geno isn't playable. Upgrading him is giving more fanservice when it comes to the business side of things. People need to remember, that in reality, Sakurai does not see Costumes, AT's, Spirits, etc. as some kind of slap in the face. Never have and never will. He sees it purely as fanservice. This is a developer and business side decision. The entire point behind them is to please the fans. I doubt we'd see the regular costume, unless it's gotten later while Geno is playable. Frankly, they probably scrapped it when negotiating for the spirit.

Now, something of interest is that there's the rumor Cloud was licensed for Ultimate at the same time as 4. Worth noting that if this is true, it's possible all the Mii costumes from Cloud/Corrin/Bayonetta were licensed at the same time. That includes Chocobo, Gil, Tails, and Knuckles. We saw three of these already back. This would be the only ones licensed. Now keep in mind DLC was greenlit around 2017(or it was 2016. I can't remember which July). That also means that figuring if Mii costumes should be DLC would come up. If so, that means those 5 costumes would be looked at again overall. Now, if Geno's costume was licensed to come back(and not renegotiated when the spirits were), whether or not Geno is playable, they're going to still bring it back anyway because they already paid for it. Premium does require extra licensing, but that's also plausible anyway for Pass 2 due to situations coming up(like Hero's presentation being Dragon Quest only), and around that time we also got Pass 2 greenlit. It goes without saying they can renegotiate things more than once. There's no "hard number of times to talk" as is.

I still think he's going to be playable, and I see his regular costume coming back as is. I don't think any costumes are scrapped at all. Lloyd Irving is the only character I'm iffy on among the remaining costumes. Monster Hunter looks in a pretty good shape right now.

I'm aware this is an unpopular opinion on how costumes work, but I just don't see any reason for them to scrap if it's still licensed. It's a waste of money. They'll literally negotiate it so they get their money back, or more items in return for not using the costume. If it doesn't come back, and we don't see Geno, then it simply was never licensed for Ultimate or they chose to remove its usage and got spirits instead. Licensing and talks are actually quite complicated and a lot can happen to begin with.


...You know they have to license using that music in the presentation, right? That means extra money unneeded. They simply didn't license it.

The idea they were removed from the presentation is the companies simply deciding that it should be DQ only. We've got 3+ companies who are all picky deciding this.

That doesn't mean a SE character is coming or not, but that in itself wouldn't matter in this case. They also already had DLC greenlit for Pass 2 by this time(according to the only rumors known from Imran Kahn. And to be fair, he is highly credible), meaning Geno and Chocobo had multiple characters to return with, not just SE, if needed. So the SE part means nothing in the end. More DLC existing is more than enough reason to move the costumes as is(assuming as I noted before, they were licensed for Ultimate, which we don't know for sure).

Basically, there's multiple reasons to move the costumes. SE getting another character is just one viable one, but not the only reason whatsoever. Now to be fair, seeing the current pass, I do think one is coming, whether or not it's Geno remains to be seen.

Would they still have to license the same music from that trailer in that presentation though? I still take with a grain of salt just because there are 3 companies who own DQ. It could happen but we still don’t know for sure. For all we know, they might not care at all. I know there might be a contract with these companies but is that even actually correct considering Armour Project and Bird Studio are not part of the copyright like Atlus, GameFreak, Creatures, and Mojang? According to SackCheif, DQ can made with Yuji Horii (Armour Project) and Toriyama (Bird Studio) and they had.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Would they still have to license the same music in that presentation though? I still take with a grain of salt just because there are 3 companies who own DQ. It could happen but we still don’t know for sure. For all we know, they might not care at all. I know there might be a contract with these companies but is that even actually correct considering Armour Project and Bird Studio be part of the copyright like Atlus, GameFreak, Creatures, and Mojang? According to SackCheif, DQ can made with Yuji Horii (Armour Project) and Toriyama (Bird Studio) and they had.

Absolutely. All music has to be licensed separately for each usage of it.

Hero's showcase, Hero's reveal, and Hero's actual DLC contents are 100% separate licensing. There's never been an exception to this.

Remember all that cool reveal music never showing up in Smash? That's cause it was solely licensed for the reveal. They have to care. The music costs money.

Whether they cared about being core DQ(keep in mind Sakurai and Nintendo are also having a deal with those companies to push DQ hard in the West, meaning keeping the showcase laser-focused on mainly one franchise does help) doesn't much change how many have to make an agreement here. With all that in mind, that's at least 4 or 5(depending how much Sakurai gets a say in this case) voices of how the presentation is handled. It took that much to essentially agree to "yeah, let's keep it DQ-alone so we can make sure DQ sells in the West", and being 3 companies who are very picky at least? Or possibly 2, depending how you look at it. Armour Project and Bird Studio are not "the same copyright" whatsoever. They're different companies and have to agree on stuff. Hero having multiple alts actually required the companies to say yes, not just SE. SE suggested it, but as they don't fully control the IP, it required other companies to fully agree to having more than one Hero per game. Do note that in any game, one Hero is the maximum allowed, including Dragon Quest crossovers. This is the sole exception. That's how massively picky they are.

So basically? The DQ ip holders are absolutely stingy and always will be. And do note the original IP holder for the music isn't any of them either. That's a different person, and that music was also gotten only for the Hero reveal. We saw midi remixes for the DLC instead, in order to pay a different company(who is also cheaper). I forgot who they paid for that music, though.

 

[Trevenant]

Tbh Geno could work as a premium mii outfit. Can't really be denied that he could as much as I hate to say it. I know the common line of thought is that they would just bring the one over from Smash 4 which then suggests that it should have returned by now which then suggests playable etc etc but line of thought doesn't make much sense when it they wanted to upgrade it they would especially considering they are aware of his popularity meaning they would think that people would rather it be a bit more immersive than the original costume.

That leads into the main point which is how likely is it that he would be a costume in the first place? Take into account how we are almost definitely getting someone that is equivalent to Banjo in the first pass (a fan fave which pretty much in and of itself spells out Geno the best) plus everything else Geno has going for him and the fact the costume has been a no show for about 2 years then yeah.

Trying to say that it can't really be denied that Geno could work as a premium mii outfit but I think people are invalidating it because they think it hurts his chances of whatever which it doesn't. He could work but he almost definitely won't is the point

 

[Deleted member]

Absolutely. All music has to be licensed separately for each usage of it.

Hero's showcase, Hero's reveal, and Hero's actual DLC contents are 100% separate licensing. There's never been an exception to this.

Remember all that cool reveal music never showing up in Smash? That's cause it was solely licensed for the reveal. They have to care. The music costs money.

Whether they cared about being core DQ(keep in mind Sakurai and Nintendo are also having a deal with those companies to push DQ hard in the West, meaning keeping the showcase laser-focused on mainly one franchise does help) doesn't much change how many have to make an agreement here. With all that in mind, that's at least 4 or 5(depending how much Sakurai gets a say in this case) voices of how the presentation is handled. It took that much to essentially agree to "yeah, let's keep it DQ-alone so we can make sure DQ sells in the West", and being 3 companies who are very picky at least? Or possibly 2, depending how you look at it. Armour Project and Bird Studio are not "the same copyright" whatsoever. They're different companies and have to agree on stuff. Hero having multiple alts actually required the companies to say yes, not just SE. SE suggested it, but as they don't fully control the IP, it required other companies to fully agree to having more than one Hero per game. Do note that in any game, one Hero is the maximum allowed, including Dragon Quest crossovers. This is the sole exception. That's how massively picky they are.

So basically? The DQ ip holders are absolutely stingy and always will be. And do note the original IP holder for the music isn't any of them either. That's a different person, and that music was also gotten only for the Hero reveal. We saw midi remixes for the DLC instead, in order to pay a different company(who is also cheaper). I forgot who they paid for that music, though.

I still find it strange why Armour Project And Bird Studio isn’t part of the copyright credits though.

 

[Fatmanonice]

A big thing actually came with Steve the other day that significantly cripples the "premium costume" argument and Rasputin of the Dark Brotherhood pointed it out to me. Take a look at these. Here are Heihachi and Gil in Smash 4:

Now here's Heihachi and Gil in Ultimate:

Notice anything? Both got very noticeable glow-ups, especially Gil. It's not just the difference between Smash 4 and Ultimate's graphic engines either. Both have much more detail. You notice it most with Heihachi's gi (especially his pants) and Gil's sword, helmet, and, um, skirt thingy. As far as I'm aware, these are the first Smash 4 costumes to get this much TLC, adding to why they were delayed this long. This drives a sharp stick in the eye to the "premium costume" argument because if Geno and Lloyd really are ultimately doomed to be costumes, they're getting a glow up, not an overhaul like a ****in' mascot head. It's very interesting because it suggests the remaining missing costumes have been "upgraded" in some way, even if they just wind up looking noticeably nicer.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I still find it strange why Armour Project And Bird Studio isn’t part of the copyright though.

Because it's not the specific IP they were licensing. They control how the IP is used, not so much always need to be licensed.

Though I misunderstood what you meant. It's probably the case that they never licensed specific items they directly had control over. However, there's a good chance the Hero presentation itself was spoken to them about. Even if not that, that would mean Akira Toriyama, Square-Enix, Nintendo, and Sakurai all chose how the presentation went. It's Akira's artwork either way, so he's obviously important.

...Who owned the specific DQ music being played? My guess is they were licensed anyway, but not shown in the presentation details because they didn't feel it "needed" or something. When you work with a lot of licensing, it's very complicated. Being paid isn't the same as being shown in the credits. It depends exactly what it is. The presentation may have different rules about credits than the website and game itself. So I dunno.

That said, I don't deny the idea that another SE character happened and the costumes were moved over there, or Geno was chosen for Pass 2 and moved away as possible either. I just am aware it's purely a theory and it's definitely not a safe theory to work with. It's just a fair one. Hell, I'm not even sure a single costume was licensed for Ultimate and 4 at the same time. It's literally just a rumor Cloud was licensed for both, not a fact. Now if that's real, that should give a lot more perspective on things.

 

[Trevenant]

A big thing actually came with Steve the other day that significantly cripples the "premium costume" argument and Rasputin of the Dark Brotherhood pointed it out to me. Take a look at these. Here are Heihachi and Gil in Smash 4:

View attachment 288999
View attachment 289000

Now here's Heihachi and Gil in Ultimate:

View attachment 289001
View attachment 289002

Notice anything? Both got very noticeable glow-ups, especially Gil. It's not just the difference between Smash 4 and Ultimate's graphic engines either. Both have much more detail. You notice it most with Heihachi's gi (especially his pants) and Gil's sword, helmet, and, um, skirt thingy. As far as I'm aware, these are the first Smash 4 costumes to get this much TLC, adding to why they were delayed this long. This drives a sharp stick in the eye to the "premium costume" argument because if Geno and Lloyd really are ultimately doomed to be costumes, they're getting a glow up, not an overhaul like a ****in' mascot head. It's very interesting because it suggests the remaining missing costumes have been "upgraded" in some way, even if they just wind up looking noticeably nicer.

Doesn't this basically entail that just because Heihachi and Gil aren't premium rate that no other previous costume can be? The general consensus is that the second wave of DLC wasn't actually planned at first so what probably happened was not that they were delayed but because they were never planned until a second wave came about. All costumes were probably touched up to some extent but it probably is more apparent to the others.

Not to say I think we're even getting any premium promos and in all honesty the chances in general chances are pretty low but this isn't really one of the reasons.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

To be honest, I don't think SE would be the ones at fault if Geno doesn't get in. Think about it—what motive could they possibly have to DENY him? They already got FF and DQ represented in the world's largest video game cross-over ever. For what conceivable reason would they deny a paycheck from Nintendo for a character they literally never use and will likely never use again? On the flip side, there has only been 1 true example of a hard core fanpick out of BOTH fighter passes thus far (Banjo-Kazooie). Now, mind you, I know there already existed significant fan bases for each character, even Byleth, but I'm referring to characters that have long been demanded without an obvious strategic marketing advantage. B-K was a historically demanded character from a virtually dead franchise owned by a competitor. Geno falls into this exact same category. Now let's look at the pattern here:

Most of the DLC characters thus far have served 1 of 2 purposes:
1) Cater to outside fanbases to increase the install base of Smash at large (Joker, Hero, Terry, Steve)
2) Promote big money franchises or Nintendo's own IPs (Hero, Byleth, Min Min, Steve)

It's obviously too early in FP2 to know for sure, but if Nintendo keeps up the current trend, it would seem that pure fan demand outside of marketing strategy will be heavily limited. I'm guessing maybe 2 characters at most. Whether Nintendo decides that a deuteragonist from a dead Mario spin-off franchise would be profitable enough to warrant a fighter seems to be the biggest question here. Since Sakurai is adamant that Nintendo is the one making the calls for the DLC, I would have to conclude that Nintendo would be the one at fault if Geno gets the shaft.

Well, there is Sora who is not only as popular or perhaps more popular than Geno but would make more money for them. And there is Lara Croft who is probably the most iconic female gaming protagonist that has 7 Guinness world records and comes from Square-Enix's 3rd best selling franchise with almost 80 million in sales:

Guinness World Records - WikiRaider

www.wikiraider.com

Best-selling Square Enix games

This article covers the best-selling Square Enix games and franchises. This includes games made by Squaresoft, Enix, and their 2003 merged corporation, Square Enix. It also includes games by its acquired subsidiaries, Eidos and Taito, from before and after their consolidation. It does not...

vgsales.fandom.com

So yeah, Geno still has competition within Square-Enix.

Probably. I kind of had a moment the other day when a lot of stuff clicked for me regarding Chief (and Crash to a smaller degree).

-Bingeing Simpsons: Tree House of Horror episodes, I realized that Halo and Crash Bandicoot are referenced several times in the series. May not seem like much but it made me realize that Halo and Crash are some of the few non -Nintendo franchises that have mainstream media presence.

-Was at Spirit Halloween in my town and in the video game section. The franchises represented by costumes? Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Sonic, Pac-Man, Fortnite, Minecraft, Kingdom Hearts, and Halo and these were costumes for both kids and adults.

-Like I said back in July, the rumor is that Master Chief's trailer is supposed to be a capstone of sorts and highlight multiple big announcements. At first, I thought Chief was going to only be tied to one first party announcement but now I'm realizing it's probably two, with one of them always being planned as 2021 at the earliest. To support this, Chief was supposedly signed off to only be allowed to be depicted with certain characters and it's a very small list. With how Steve turned out, these weirdly specific rumors got a ton of backing. I don't know how the hell people got access to this kind of stuff but, then again, Microsoft kind of is terrible at keeping secrets too so...

-They say hindsight is 20/20 but Smash has basically been trying to outdue itself each year at E3 since 2013. The last Smash Ultimate E3 for God knows how long ending with Crash or Chief honestly makes sense. E3 is the Kingmaker. It's given us Bowser, Peach, Wario, Snake, Megaman, Pacman, Ryu, Ridley, Hero, Banjo, and now Steve so I honestly jumped the gun thinking Crash or Chief would be this year. Crash was literally Sony's mascot for three years and Chief is the face of Microsoft. Waiting until E3 2021 (the last E3 before Season 2 officially ends) to unveil them honestly makes sense.

It's just tiring because trying to figure out the timing for stuff is extremely difficult because you don't know how early information is. On the upside, a ton of 2018 stuff is coming to fruition in droves so by all logic Geno, Waluigi, Ryu, and Lloyd should all be approaching their respective moments of truth within 3-4 months. I say this because most of the stuff that has come true like Mario 3D World Deluxe, Pikmin 3 Deluxe, Skyward Sword HD, etc were all like November/December 2018 rumors while Minecraft in Smash was summer 2018 so we're honestly reaching a critical point for most of these evergreen Smash rumors.

So if Geno is most likely FP8 and Crash and Master Chief are likely FP9 and FP10 being saved for E3 of next year, that begs the question who is FP11 and potentially Ultimate's last newcomer? Since all the newcomers from here onwards are likely big 3rd party names, it would be weird to get all these big names only for us to end this game a small name or a slightly popular request like Lloyd or Dante.

 

[Mizzle]

I see that people keep mentioning that "Sakurai acknowledged Lloyd's popularity" when really he did nothing of the sort. Unless there is some sort of interview I missed, all that Sakurai implied for Lloyd was that he was pretty much the Cloud of the Tales franchise: the main protagonist of the most well-known game of the series. He never made any mention of "fan-popularity" or anything like that, unlike with Geno.
Compare this...

I’m not sure if there was any other appropriate choice? ... I really think it has to be Lloyd here (laughs)

to this...

That’s right. He’s very popular. When talking about older characters, Geno always gets a lot of requests.

Sure, being the "Cloud" of your respective series is pretty big, but I see people continually blowing it out of proportion by saying that it was Sakurai acknowledging Lloyd's popularity in terms of Smash requests.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Doesn't this basically entail that just because Heihachi and Gil aren't premium rate that no other previous costume can be? The general consensus is that the second wave of DLC wasn't actually planned at first so what probably happened was not that they were delayed but because they were never planned until a second wave came about. All costumes were probably touched up to some extent but it probably is more apparent to the others.

Not to say I think we're even getting any premium promos and in all honesty the chances in general chances are pretty low but this isn't really one of the reasons.

The fact they're being updated, whether Premium or not as is, means they either have to renegotiate details or licensed them later on.

This definitely doesn't hurt or help the idea of a Premium Geno. It just means that yes, he can be Premium since no matter what the costume would be updated. It doesn't mean he will be Premium. In addition, with this in mind, as I wasn't aware, that means all costumes coming back I'm no longer supporting. They'll come back as they're licensed, but they weren't inherently meant to. I'm glad this was pointed out.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Doesn't this basically entail that just because Heihachi and Gil aren't premium rate that no other previous costume can be? The general consensus is that the second wave of DLC wasn't actually planned at first so what probably happened was not that they were delayed but because they were never planned until a second wave came about. All costumes were probably touched up to some extent but it probably is more apparent to the others.

Not to say I think we're even getting any premium promos and in all honesty the chances in general chances are pretty low but this isn't really one of the reasons.

We're now at more than 60 Smash 4 Mii costumes that have returned and we're now down to the final four. Is there really any real reason to expect any of the remaining four to be "premium?" Roughly 94% have come back without this treatment so what reason would there be to wait almost two years to introduce this concept of it were actually a thing?

 

[Trevenant]

We're now at more than 60 Smash 4 Mii costumes that have returned and we're now down to the final four. Is there really any real reason to expect any of the remaining four to be "premium?" Roughly 94% have come back without this treatment so what reason would there be to wait almost two years to introduce this concept of it were actually a thing?

Like I said i must reiterate that I don't actually think that it's happening but honestly I still think there are better reasons than what pretty much amounts to 'it hasn't happened yet' which is obviously pretty cookie cutter and can be applied to most things. Tbh it's probably more along the lines of everything

TLDR is doubt its happening but there are better reasons then what is pretty much 'it hasn't happened yet'.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

I see that people keep mentioning that "Sakurai acknowledged Lloyd's popularity" when really he did nothing of the sort. Unless there is some sort of interview I missed, all that Sakurai implied for Lloyd was that he was pretty much the Cloud of the Tales franchise: the main protagonist of the most well-known game of the series. He never made any mention of "fan-popularity" or anything like that, unlike with Geno.
Compare this...

to this...

Sure, being the "Cloud" of your respective series is pretty big, but I see people continually blowing it out of proportion by saying that it was Sakurai acknowledging Lloyd's popularity in terms of Smash requests.

Isnt Lloyd so popular he's been removed from "favorite tales character" polls cause he kept winning?

 

[Trevenant]

Isnt Lloyd so popular he's been removed from "favorite tales character" polls cause he kept winning?

Fairly sure that was Yuri.

 

[Let Geno Smash]

I see that people keep mentioning that "Sakurai acknowledged Lloyd's popularity" when really he did nothing of the sort. Unless there is some sort of interview I missed, all that Sakurai implied for Lloyd was that he was pretty much the Cloud of the Tales franchise: the main protagonist of the most well-known game of the series. He never made any mention of "fan-popularity" or anything like that, unlike with Geno.
Compare this...

to this...

Sure, being the "Cloud" of your respective series is pretty big, but I see people continually blowing it out of proportion by saying that it was Sakurai acknowledging Lloyd's popularity in terms of Smash requests.

Both comments on Geno and Lloyd were in this interview by source gaming: https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/21/nintendodream3/
The comments as you mention are too diferent. He talks about how Geno got a lot of votes in the Ballot while is Retro character and how he wanted Geno since Brawl but that didn't became a reality while with Lloyd he says that he feel that Lloyd should be the one who had a Mii Costume. Nothing about Fan Demand

 

[AdamBel731]

I see that people keep mentioning that "Sakurai acknowledged Lloyd's popularity" when really he did nothing of the sort. Unless there is some sort of interview I missed, all that Sakurai implied for Lloyd was that he was pretty much the Cloud of the Tales franchise: the main protagonist of the most well-known game of the series. He never made any mention of "fan-popularity" or anything like that, unlike with Geno.
Compare this...

to this...

Sure, being the "Cloud" of your respective series is pretty big, but I see people continually blowing it out of proportion by saying that it was Sakurai acknowledging Lloyd's popularity in terms of Smash requests.

Okay fair enough, but if you're the "Cloud of your respective series" and Sakurai says how Lloyd basically had to be the Tales of representative, I feel as if he is acknowledging the character's popularity. Maybe not in terms of the Smash fanbase specifically, but really this all doesn't matter too much since the main argument I made before was that Sakurai acknowledged Lloyd and Geno popularity, which... he did. Sakurai said there was no other option aside from Lloyd. Maybe he didn't say what he said about Geno and the Smash fanbase, but the long and short of it is that Sakurai has publicly acknowledged both characters' popularity, whereas for other Mii costume and Assist Trophy characters, he did not. That's my main point from before. Geno got acknowledgement as a fanbase pick, and Lloyd got acknowledged as an icon for a series pick. Which is more than Isaac, Shadow, Skull Kid, etc., have gotten. As such, it would be pretty harsh to hold back those costumes for this long (unless Sakurai had no control over that, as I've been saying).

 

[CannonStreak]

Forgive me, but was there a hint from not long ago that there would be something happening this Friday?

 

[MattX20]

Forgive me, but was there a hint from not long ago that there would be something happening this Friday?

It was Rogersbase who mentioned something to that effect

 

[Trevenant]

Tbh wasn't Yuri still popular even before his game was remastered? If he was, I dunno if Sakurai viewed Lloyd as highly as he did based on popularity within the Tales Of community for a mii costume since theoretically the most popular still would have been Yuri. If Yuri was as popular back then, I assume some other major factor was at play which caused Sakurai to prioritise him. I suppose this is somewhat unrelated mb I guess. Still would like to know though

 

[QQS]

GENO FOR CHRISTMAS!

Saw it on that Instagram page.

GENO SMASHES FROM ABOVE!

 

[MisterMike]

It was Rogersbase who mentioned something to that effect

Was that related to Smash?

 

[Firox]

Well, there is Sora who is not only as popular or perhaps more popular than Geno but would make more money for them. And there is Lara Croft who is probably the most iconic female gaming protagonist that has 7 Guinness world records and comes from Square-Enix's 3rd best selling franchise with almost 80 million in sales:

Guinness World Records - WikiRaider

www.wikiraider.com

Best-selling Square Enix games

This article covers the best-selling Square Enix games and franchises. This includes games made by Squaresoft, Enix, and their 2003 merged corporation, Square Enix. It also includes games by its acquired subsidiaries, Eidos and Taito, from before and after their consolidation. It does not...

vgsales.fandom.com

So yeah, Geno still has competition within Square-Enix.

Oh, I see what you mean. There are other notable SE characters Geno has to compete with, but a couple things to note:

1) Sora is 100% owned by Disney. SE developed Kingdom Hearts and has some say over creative implementation, but Sora and all other original characters are property of Disney so I wouldn't quite consider him direct competition with Geno.

2) One could still argue that if Lara or Sora were to beat out Geno, it would still be a matter of Nintendo deciding whether they want to prioritize strategic marketing over sheer fan demand.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Tbh wasn't Yuri still popular even before his game was remastered? If he was, I dunno if Sakurai viewed Lloyd as highly as he did based on popularity within the Tales Of community for a mii costume since theoretically the most popular still would have been Yuri. If Yuri was as popular back then, I assume some other major factor was at play which caused Sakurai to prioritise him. I suppose this is somewhat unrelated mb I guess. Still would like to know though

It's possible. Overall, I think he still views Lloyd as notable regardless. It doesn't mean he's still going to be a costume, or would become playable, etc., but I'd argue he's a contender in general. Yuri and Cress feel like the other contenders for playable. Most popular and the first protagonist.

 

[Andwooooo]

It's possible. Overall, I think he still views Lloyd as notable regardless. It doesn't mean he's still going to be a costume, or would become playable, etc., but I'd argue he's a contender in general. Yuri and Cress feel like the other contenders for playable. Most popular and the first protagonist.

I believe he sees Lloyd as the Cloud of the Tales series. Sakurai said he chose Cloud over more relevant FF characters because of how iconic he is—I can’t imagine him treating Tales any differently.

 

[Pakky]

Seeing as how Geno and Lloyd were talked about the most fondly in the past by Sakurai and are still missing as costumes it seems pretty simple to assume that they are in the game as additions to the roster.

 

[T2by4]

Was that related to Smash?

We don't know he said something is happening on Friday that we should pay attention to during his discussion with others in his Steve in Smash stream, but we don't know if it actually relates to Smash.

Was Rogersbase also the one that said a smrpg remake was in the works with square during a livestream? I just wanna be sure if that was him or not. Can't remember which stream it was, but someone posted it a few weeks ago and I saear it was rogersbase. If that's the case, and something DOES indeed happen on Friday we need to really pay attention to him.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I believe he sees Lloyd as the Cloud of the Tales series. Sakurai said he chose Cloud over more relevant FF characters because of how iconic he is—I can’t imagine him treating Tales any differently.

I don't. The way I looked at it is that he's aware of how popular he is and is one of the big breakout characters on the Nintendo-related games. This makes him an easy seller.

Yuri is Tales' Cloud, the topmost breakout character of all time and most popular(enough to be banned from polls).

While it's a similar situation, Lloyd has massive popularity too;

"Lloyd:

—The Tales series has 20 years of history, how did you decide on Lloyd for the costume?

Sakurai: I’m not sure if there was any other appropriate choice?

—For example, how about the protagonist of the first game, Cress? [TN: From Tales of Phantasia]

Sakurai: I really think it has to be Lloyd here (laughs). I could have gone down the route of choosing from the first entry in the series, but for old games it’s somewhat common for the editorial supervision from the original creator to make the process difficult."

This is what it says. It doesn't refer to actually anyone being playable, which is what makes it vastly different from Cloud. It's just a costume. He doesn't ultimately specify why it has to be Lloyd either. Was it cause of being a breakout Nintendo character? Popularity? Fan demand? Is he close enough to Cloud? There's too many explanations with no straight answer.

...Also, I don't know, as was spoken above, if Yuri was already out as a character by that time. If he was, maybe the Cloud thing is a decent point. If he wasn't, there was zero comparison at that point for massively big Tales of characters.

 

[Pakky]

We don't know he said something is happening on Friday that we should pay attention to during his discussion with others in his Steve in Smash stream, but we don't know if it actually relates to Smash.

Was Rogersbase also the one that said a smrpg remake was in the works with square during a livestream? I just wanna be sure if that was him or not. Can't remember which stream it was, but someone posted it a few weeks ago and I saear it was rogersbase. If that's the case, and something DOES indeed happen on Friday we need to really pay attention to him.

Yes Rogersbase did mention a SMRPG remake/sequel during his Japan Time Podcast episode about the Mario 3D collection,

 

[Mr. Peepee]

Wait did Rogersbase say something about this Friday or next Friday

We don't know he said something is happening on Friday that we should pay attention to during his discussion with others in his Steve in Smash stream, but we don't know if it actually relates to Smash.

Was Rogersbase also the one that said a smrpg remake was in the works with square during a livestream? I just wanna be sure if that was him or not. Can't remember which stream it was, but someone posted it a few weeks ago and I saear it was rogersbase. If that's the case, and something DOES indeed happen on Friday we need to really pay attention to him.

 

[Pakky]

Wait did Rogersbase say something about this Friday or next Friday

October 16th supposedly.

 

[Mizzle]

Okay fair enough, but if you're the "Cloud of your respective series" and Sakurai says how Lloyd basically had to be the Tales of representative, I feel as if he is acknowledging the character's popularity. Maybe not in terms of the Smash fanbase specifically, but really this all doesn't matter too much since the main argument I made before was that Sakurai acknowledged Lloyd and Geno popularity, which... he did. Sakurai said there was no other option aside from Lloyd. Maybe he didn't say what he said about Geno and the Smash fanbase, but the long and short of it is that Sakurai has publicly acknowledged both characters' popularity, whereas for other Mii costume and Assist Trophy characters, he did not. That's my main point from before. Geno got acknowledgement as a fanbase pick, and Lloyd got acknowledged as an icon for a series pick. Which is more than Isaac, Shadow, Skull Kid, etc., have gotten. As such, it would be pretty harsh to hold back those costumes for this long (unless Sakurai had no control over that, as I've been saying).

Saying that somebody is the best character to represent the series is not the same as saying the character is popular. I know that probably sounds weird and contradictory, but let me put it this way. If Sakurai said that Heihachi was the best fit for Tekken representation- which he has- would you consider that "acknowledging his popularity"? I wouldn't think so, as someone naturally has to be the one chosen, and Heihachi is the most well-known character from the series. Lloyd is in a similar position, as the main protagonist of the most well-known Tales game, it makes sense that Sakurai said "I really think it has to be Lloyd here".

I personally don't see Lloyd happening because of Bandai Namco's apparent modesty when it comes to Smash, so I do think it is strange and a little bit cruel that they seem to be saving Lloyd as the last returning Namco costume, but that's just how it is sometimes.

 

[MisterMike]

Was Rogersbase also the one that said a smrpg remake was in the works with square during a livestream?

He mentioned it, but he wasn't the one who originated it nor did he seem to indicate he had any insider knowledge regarding it.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Tbh wasn't Yuri still popular even before his game was remastered? If he was, I dunno if Sakurai viewed Lloyd as highly as he did based on popularity within the Tales Of community for a mii costume since theoretically the most popular still would have been Yuri. If Yuri was as popular back then, I assume some other major factor was at play which caused Sakurai to prioritise him. I suppose this is somewhat unrelated mb I guess. Still would like to know though

I've heard people claim that Yuri was so popular in Japan in the Smash polls that they had to ban the Yuri from the polls for being too popularity. Don't ask me where the source for this information is as I've only heard people claiming that. Also, Sakurai has gone on record to pretty much say if a Tales rep ever get's into Smash it will most likely be Lloyd.

Oh, I see what you mean. There are other notable SE characters Geno has to compete with, but a couple things to note:

1) Sora is 100% owned by Disney. SE developed Kingdom Hearts and has some say over creative implementation, but Sora and all other original characters are property of Disney so I wouldn't quite consider him direct competition with Geno.

2) One could still argue that if Lara or Sora were to beat out Geno, it would still be a matter of Nintendo deciding whether they want to prioritize strategic marketing over sheer fan demand.

I completely agree with you on the scenario that Nintendo chooses Lara or Sora over Geno because of marketing purposes.

 

[Pakky]

here's the SMRPG thing said by Rogersbase