Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[YsDisciple]

So I have a theory for you all that I believe lines up extremely well to not be just a coincidence, and it could greatly strengthen Geno's chances of appearing in this Pass.

At last year's E3, we had a double reveal with Hero and Banjo. However, my theory stems from what these characters are and what companies they are owned by. Hero is a Square Enix promotional character used to promote Dragon Quest 11, and Banjo is the big fan request from Microsoft. Hero was also revealed at the very beginning of the Direct, whereas Banjo was saved for the end.

So, what's the theory you may ask.

My theory is that when Square Enix and Microsoft negotiated to get their characters in FP1, Nintendo approached both companies about getting more characters of theirs for FP2 and they would both have characters revealed at next year's E3 as well, BUT the order will be reversed and now Microsoft would be the company to get a promotional character and Square will get a huge fan request included. As we established, its very likely that CP7 and CP8 would have been the E3 reveals (And before anyone mentions Min Min, its most likely that Min Min was planned to get revealed before E3 had COVID not f---ed up Nintendo's schedule). So, with this in mind, my theory is that Steve, a Microsoft-owned promotional character would start out this E3, with a Square Enix fan favorite cough Geno cough would be saved towards the end, which would be kinda like last year's E3, except both companies exchanges the type of character they are including, if this makes sense.

So to sum it up, last year's E3 featured a promotional Square Enix character to start out the Direct, and a huge fan request from Microsoft to end the Direct, so my theory is that for this year's E3, the order would have been a promotional character from Microsoft to start the Direct, and a huge fan request from Square Enix to end the Direct. I hope this theory makes sense to you all because I'm not sure if I explained it clearly.

Great minds do think alike after all.

Having internalized the left-hook of a reveal of Steve as CP 7, thinking back on Smash Bros. Ultimate's DLC cycle up to this point, I was drawn back to E3 2019. Before continuing, some things to recall from previous E3 announcements within Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's cycle (pre, and post launch).

• In the 2018 Nintendo Direct, we got a surprise Smash Direct at the end, in which halfway through it we got the reveal of Daisy as Peach's echo fighter, and it ended off with the reveal of Ridley finally making it into the game (a fan-favorite character).
• In the 2019 Nintendo Direct, we started off to a Smash reveal, with it being Hero from Dragon Quest as CP 2. Near the end of the Direct, we got a second surprise reveal with Banjo & Kazooie joining in as CP 3.

Remembering the E3 2019 Smash reveals, and going over what was shown in today's reveal of CP 7 (Steve), a thought came to mind. Steve's reveal might allude to what could have been E3 2020's dual reveal; it being a mirror from 2019's. "A mirror from 2019'? Say what?" On this point, I'd like to point out some details in regards to the characters that were revealed within last year's (2019) E3 Direct.

• CP 2, Hero from the legendary JRPG franchise of Dragon Quest (DQ), was revealed with four (4) different alternate skins one could choose from (Heroes from DQ III, IV, VIII, and XI). This character was the Square Enix rep in the Fighters Pass and was the opening reveal in the E3 2019 Direct.
• CP 3, Banjo & Kazooie from the self-titled, memorable 3d platformer-collectathon, was the near-closing reveal in the E3 2019 Direct. Although an IP original from RARE, since around the time of Nuts and Bolts, it is a Microsoft IP, making the duo the Microsoft rep. This character's inclusion was considered by many to have been THE fan pic of the pass. Also, Banjo & Kazooie, as stated by Sakurai in an old interview had expressed that around the time of Super Smash Bros. (N64), he had wanted to include the duo to the game. However due to the uncertainty surrounding RARE's fate at the time, that was not possible at the time.

The following points are speculative theory-crafting based on facts and educated guesses (i.e., NOT a confirmation). Combining today's reveal with the E3 2019 Smash reveals, led me to believe that this year we might've had a similar reveal pattern not simply in the matter of west, and japan favorite picks, but in specific, existing partner Company picks (these being Microsoft and Square Enix); only that the order of the characters would be reversed (i.e.: Microsoft's rep would be the opening reveal, while Square's would be the near-closing reveal). Heck, a bit tinfoily on this one but, even the Challenger Pack numbering could allude to this possibility as well; Microsoft's CPs being uneven numbers (3 and 7), with Square Enix's numbers potentially being even numbers (2 and 8). However, the upcoming presentation of Steve on Saturday will be key to determine whether what would have been this year's E3 2020 dual Smash reveal had been a perfect mirror of 2019, or an "assisted" or "improved" mirror. What I mean by perfect mirror or improved mirror is the following.

Perfect 2019 Mirror

• Opening Smash reveal is a Microsoft rep
• Character has different alternate skins (four)
• Character comes from a very popular franchise (in this case of a younger demographic mostly)
• Character's challenger pack will also launch with a themed Mii Costume Wave (if it is to be exactly like Hero's then they would be four; all from Minecraft)

Improved 2019 Mirror

• Same three first points of the Perfect Mirror
• Character's challenger pack will also launch with a themed Mii Costume Wave (rather than just Minecraft Mii Costumes, these would be of Microsoft IPs).

Now, all this is nice and what not but, the point I'd like to get to with all of this is that, following the idea of these two E3 2020 reveals having had been a mirror from 2019's, then the closing reveal would have been one akin to what Banjo's was in nature.

• A highly requested fan favorite character
• Character is from an IP that hails from one classic game from the pre-2000
• Sakurai had previously expressed having wanted to include him in Smash (in past iterations of Smash)

As for the fourth characteristic, since this time Microsoft was the opener, then the closer would have to had been a character from a Square Enix-owned IP. The Square Enix character that meets all of these characteristics is (imo) none other than Geno himself.

• Geno's been a highly requested fan favorite character, appearing in unofficial polls among the top 10s
• Character is from an IP that hails from one classic game from the pre-2000. Although originated from a Super Mario spin-off game, it was the ONLY RPG of its ilk from the Super Mario franchise that ever released. The Paper Mario, and Mario & Luigi spin-offs that came later both began as spiritual successors to SMRPG, but still were unique on their own.
• Sakurai had previously expressed having wanted to include him in Smash (since Brawl specifically).

Bringing up the Mii Costume waves; if this upcoming Saturday we do in fact see a Cacodemon Mii Hat that looks IDENTICAL to the one shown in the CacoMallow image leak, that would confirm that said leak was REAL, and would thus confirm the legitimacy of the Mallow hat. Geno would be "soft-confirmed" is this pans out. Otherwise we would have to wait until the CP 8 reveal sometime later to see if in fact the dual reveal of E3 2020 was going to be a reversed mirror of 2019.

For the time being, let us wait and see what Saturday brings. CP 8 should be revealed sometime around... January perhaps (3 month gap from Steve's reveal) if we go by recent time gaps (or forbid the thought of having to wait until March 2021).

 

[Mr. Peepee]

I feel like if Challenger 8 was Geno, they might reveal him in a Nintendo Direct, not at the Game Awards. A character like Crash (who has had reveals there before) is more fitting. This could hurt his chances at him being Fighter 8, but since COVID has spaced out Smash announcements by several months this year, they might do the former and reveal Geno in a direct? They could also announce Super Mario RPG on SNES online alongside Geno's reveal?

 

[Firox]

Well, this is Newcomer Speculation Thread 2

This is the Newcomer Speculation thread minus the Geno persecution and toxic gatekeeping.

 

[Jurae818]

Vault boy was a fan demand fighter? I never realized

Back in 2018, Vault Boy was a name passed around, namely rumors. One fake leak had him alongside Geno, K. Rool, Isaac and a few other fan demands too. Seeing Vault Boy's costume makes me think those rumors had water to them. Given that Steve/Minecraft was in the works for years, Vault Boy and Bethesda/Id/etc. may have been in the same position around Ultimate's development, bringing the Cacomallow leak back in the picture. Could this mean that Doom will get content in the future, be it a fighter or just costumes? And naturally, if Mallow has a hat, does it mean Geno's coming as another piece of Mii Fighter equipment or a full-fledged fighter? I'll try to see if I can dig it up.

We're nearing 2021 and things from a few years back are starting to surface.

 

[TooManyToastahs]

Weren't y'all posting images like this a week ago and asking who'd you pick to get in?

I do remember seeing the thread discuss something like that a week ago but it was still tangentially related to Geno since he was in the image.

I dunno, this is nothing against the question you proposed to us since it was a really interesting one (I’d personally choose Isaac from the Binding of Isaac if he counts), but it is probably more of a question for a general discussion thread like the newcomer thread.

Oh, and hey something SMRPG/Geno related, I was looking through some scans of the Nintendo Power SMRPG Guidebook and I found some neat character overviews! I put them in the spoiler for anyone interested:

Spoiler: Guidebook Scans

 

[Datboigeno]

um... guys look at this

Minecraft's Steve kills Super Mario RPG's Geno in this Super Smash Bros. Ultimate created stage

Reminder we were told posting in the thread about being happy that Paper Mario or other characters was seemingly deconfirmed with a spirit event was “toxic”. I can’t even imagine the blowback we would have gotten for making this if Geno was revealed and not Steve. But notice no one is really concerned at all about the Steve fanbase now or trashing them over this. Weird!

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Reminder we were told posting in the thread about being happy that Paper Mario or other characters was seemingly deconfirmed with a spirit event was “toxic”. I can’t even imagine the blowback we would have gotten for making this if Geno was revealed and not Steve. But notice no one is really concerned at all about the Steve fanbase now or trashing them or we this. Weird!

This sums up my thoughts. Can't stand this double standard we have.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

So when I was young, I always thought that sprites with minor alterations or palette swaps in RPG's (RPG's like Mario RPG) were LAZY

But now that I am making my own, even if it'll never see anywhere outside of my own personal project, I find that's it's actually fun to do.

 

[Peepo T. Skeleton]

Back in 2018, Vault Boy was a name passed around, namely rumors. One fake leak had him alongside Geno, K. Rool, Isaac and a few other fan demands too. Seeing Vault Boy's costume makes me think those rumors had water to them. Given that Steve/Minecraft was in the works for years, Vault Boy and Bethesda/Id/etc. may have been in the same position around Ultimate's development, bringing the Cacomallow leak back in the picture. Could this mean that Doom will get content in the future, be it a fighter or just costumes? And naturally, if Mallow has a hat, does it mean Geno's coming as another piece of Mii Fighter equipment or a full-fledged fighter? I'll try to see if I can dig it up.

We're nearing 2021 and things from a few years back are starting to surface.

This is anecdotal, but I do remember a decent amount of people mentioning that they wanted Vault Boy in the lead-up to Ultimate's release. Not as much as other ZeniMax owned characters like Dovahkiin or Doomguy, but it wasn't infrequent. The Vault Boy talk kind of petered out after the end of 2018.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Reminder we were told posting in the thread about being happy that Paper Mario or other characters was seemingly deconfirmed with a spirit event was “toxic”. I can’t even imagine the blowback we would have gotten for making this if Geno was revealed and not Steve. But notice no one is really concerned at all about the Steve fanbase now or trashing them or we this. Weird!

Steve fans got a bunch of crap from jerks over the past two or so years (the Grotesque Steve trolls also joining in on bothering Steve fans at least last year) and most aren’t even acting like this. Steve fans were also called toxic just for arguing against “‘reasons’ Steve can’t get in” and debunked arguments iirc.

Of course I also hate how the Geno fanbase gets generalized, though, and gets a bunch of crap from jerks too. I can imagine people assuming we’re all toxic just for one guy’s stage ._.

 

[Jurae818]

Here's the thread I recalled.

Now obviously it was fake, but consider this: Names are thrown around for a reason. A lot of names were passed around during the pre-release and Vault Boy was one that was considerably mentioned, a lot more than I thought. Another notable hint in that image was Steve with the pickaxe. If Minecraft was in the works for as long as it was, it's only natural that someone would know about it in the inner workings of Nintendo and Mojang outside of the people who were in that same room making negotiations. I said myself that Cacomallow was intentionally put out by Nintendo to deter these would be slips in the cracks and keep them at bay as well as disrupt the overall spectrum with the SNK Copyright slip-up days before Terry was revealed.

(SPECULATION WARNING)Now, this is where I feel that Nintendo has a bigger hand in leaks, far bigger than anyone can fathom. Names get thrown around for a reason. But people may think that these names equate to a fighter. Or, that's what they want you to think. Sometimes, a name can be thrown around and that name gets in the game...but as a costume, assist trophy or a spirit. Or even DLC, be it a costume or a fighter. After the ESRB Leak, it's no surprise that Nintendo took greater measures to keep people in check to prevent a second leak from happening. What better way to deter a leak than to have your people throw some names around without the proper context and assume that those names will be fighters in the upcoming game, or mix up facts with fiction and add a character that will be an upcoming fighter along with some that won't to cover your tracks based on the names you hear? Bias is a thing, so it makes sense that the so-called insiders would possibly push for a character they like and then mix around the characters they don't like in whatever manner they wish, or they may take your word to heart and go with it 100%? That's where the confusion comes in and suddenly you get dozens of leaks flying around wildly.

Then among the confusion, you then slip in an actual leak that doesn't get any responses in comparison.

That image above alone tells me enough, and it was a month in advance. Short and sweet and to the point. Other leaks always go into detail and that's where you might be able to tell that it's fake. They also have at least six characters minimum, sweetening the deal and generating hype and hope. Meanwhile that leak above did no such thing and it was ignored.

I'm giving Nintendo a little too much credit, but consider this as well: Nintendo is so secretive of their work and very mindful of any would-be breaches to their securities and top-secret information that it wouldn't surprise me if they really did things like this just for one game and the big leak earlier this year was from a source that was very well-hidden, even from Nintendo themselves. Sakurai even had to work on Ultimate in secret, which should tell you the precautions taken this time. Things are planned in advance so Vault Boy could have been just that - a costume rather than a character. It's possible that because of the names thrown around in fake leaks and rumors that Nintendo themselves may consider looking into those series and making negotiations with their respective companies. Travis was a name thrown around too and he was revealed as a Mii costume last week. Again, this is all speculation but there's a chance the names you commonly see mentioned in Smash DLC will appear, one way or another.

 

[Let Geno Smash]

Shadowedgy noticed that the Direct page was updated so maybe a Partner's Showcase is coming soon (I think that the idea of a monthly partner for the rest of the year is omwga likely): https://twitter.com/shadowedgy/status/1314928502790066178?s=20

 

[Mr. Peepee]

I really hope Partner Showcases are a one-time thing this year. Just show the games off in an actual Nintendo Direct.

 

[Slabfish]

I feel like if Challenger 8 was Geno, they might reveal him in a Nintendo Direct, not at the Game Awards. A character like Crash (who has had reveals there before) is more fitting. This could hurt his chances at him being Fighter 8, but since COVID has spaced out Smash announcements by several months this year, they might do the former and reveal Geno in a direct? They could also announce Super Mario RPG on SNES online alongside Geno's reveal?

are nintendo directs even a thing anymore? nintendo just drops news on their social media whenever they feel like it nowadays

 

[MarioRaccoon]

are nintendo directs even a thing anymore? nintendo just drops news on their social media whenever they feel like it nowadays

Not for this year and maybe until E3 2021. Next week, hopefully we will get a new partner showcase, I don’t think they will do big announcements on November, December I can see a final indies direct and TGA announcements (new third party collaboration and potential march 2021 game, my guess is that new Metroid 2D that is rumored since february).

Then yeah, I think they will continue their partner showcase for january to march with other directs like Zelda and Pokémon’s anniversary events, smash special announcements, another indies in mid march.

 

[xNovaNebulax]

so uh.. the cat mario and peach amiibo 2 pack are a thing--

 

[MattX20]

With the past two fighter reveals, we can always count on Sakurai Presents videos for the foreseeable future, but not Nintendo Directs for now. That, and we still have a decent chance of one more fighter reveal, if not release this year if the upcoming Mario tournament is anything to go by with the previous two tournament reveals/releases.

 

[Lord Woomy]

I can’t even imagine the blowback we would have gotten for making this if Geno was revealed and not Steve.

If this was the other way around, this would be posted around Smash Twitter for the next week with everyone agreeing that every Geno fan should be publicly flogged. But since the original makes fun of the "problem fanbase", it's Wholesome 100 Keanu Chungus

 

[Droodle]

I don't know why people think Steve wasn't a fan-request character, because he absolutely was. He placed in the top 10 in a ton of unofficial polls, and even beat out the likes of Master Chief in the Source Gaming Poll (where he placed 7th, after a lot of people had already thought he missed his chance). Heck, in the first Source Gaming Poll back in 2019 he placed in at number 6; only 40 votes behind Geno.

Like it or not, Steve was a big fan-request pick; and it's not like he had any bandwagoning behind him in the 2020 poll either. There were legitimately no real Minecraft in Smash rumors this year. And in the SourceGaming 2020 poll, everyone who was ahead of Steve, with the exception of Sora all had some recent rumors that boosted their popularity. Crash had MandyCan, Dante had the January rumors, Geno and Doomguy both shared the CacoMallow. Steve was ahead of all of these characters in the 2019 poll with the exception of Sora and Geno.

So yeah, Steve was highly requested. He's no different from the likes of Sora or Crash getting announced at E3, but for whatever reason I think people would define those as "fan requests" rather than "promotional" (like they do with Steve).

I think we'll probably get a big request/series from Japan as character 8; so anyone from the likes of Tales to Devil May Cry. I don't think Geno will turn out to be character 8, the earliest I can see is him being 9.

 

[ForsakenM]

I don't know why people think Steve wasn't a fan-request character, because he absolutely was. He placed in the top 10 in a ton of official polls, and even beat out the likes of Master Chief in the Source Gaming Poll (where he placed 7th, after a lot of people had already thought he missed his chance). Heck, in the first Source Gaming Poll back in 2019 he placed in at number 6; only 40 votes behind Geno.

Like it or not, Steve was a big fan-request pick; and it's not like he had any bandwagoning behind him in the 2020 poll either. There were legitimately no real Minecraft in Smash rumors this year. And in the SourceGaming 2020 poll, everyone who was ahead of Steve, with the exception of Sora all had some recent rumors that boosted their popularity. Crash had MandyCan, Dante had the January rumors, Geno and Doomguy both shared the CacoMallow. Steve was ahead of all of these characters in the 2019 poll with the exception of Sora and Geno.

So yeah like it or not, Steve was highly requested. He's no different from the likes of Sora or Crash getting announced at E3, but for whatever reason I think people would define those as "fan requests" rather than "promotional" (like they do with Steve).

I think we'll probably get a big request/series from Japan as character 8; so anyone from the likes of Tales to Devil May Cry. I don't think Geno will turn out to be character 8, the earliest I can see is him being 9.

Anyone who says Steve wasn't requested by fans is talking out of their ass.

Anyone who says Steve was a pure fan request is ALSO talking out of their ass.

There is a difference between what , , / and are and what the mad blocky lad is.

See, Steve falls into the same boat as Jonesy or Tracer or pretty much any character from a game that has gotten extremely popular and is culturally relevant. However, Steve has the added bonus of being the biggest fish in this regard by being the face of the best selling game in the world to date. He also has the bonus of being around a lot longer than a lot of these others games, and with that length of time he has built a massive fanbase that genuinely loves Minecraft as opposed to just being current cultural flavor. This of course means that there can be a large amount of crossover between Minecraft fans and Smash fans because both fanbases are rather large, though I would like to point out an added factor that both games have massive appeal to casual gamers AND both games have big internet commodity with content creators who's whole channel focus on said game.

Hell, I used to argue all these reasons as to why he would never happen but even as someone who thought that way in the past I realized that none of those reasons made sense, and even in my most recent thoughts right before his reveal I never thought about him being more than a Mii Costume and maybe a bonus stage. Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but upon said hindsight it made so much more sense for him to be the next Microsoft rep than Chief and he never really had anything holding him back after B&K got in. This is mostly because I am so removed from Minecraft that even though it is SO GODDAMN HUGE it basically doesn't exist to me.

That said, you know that this is equal parts big time money as much as it is for the fans. Joker as well as Hero fall into this as well, with Joker leaning more towards the money and Hero being the Japan equivalent of Steve. In contrast, Geno has nothing but fan support going for him.

Basically, if the only reason the character ever had a chance to get in was because of all the fan demand for years, we consider them a fan pick.

If they have always been super popular and likely and have massive dollar signs attached to them, we consider them promotional.

If no one asked for them and they somehow still got in and it's clear it was only for those dollar signs, we call those shill picks.

If no one asked for them and they somehow still got in and there is no discernible reason as to why but they are a really odd choice, that's a Sakurai pick.

 

[YsDisciple]

With the past two fighter reveals, we can always count on Sakurai Presents videos for the foreseeable future, but not Nintendo Directs for now. That, and we still have a decent chance of one more fighter reveal, if not release this year if the upcoming Mario tournament is anything to go by with the previous two tournament reveals/releases.

Luckily the Mario-themed tournament that was announced coming up around November or December is also branded as a Nintendo VS Challenge Cup tournament.

 

[ctt4lfecw]

Geno is just like his fan base, enduring.

 

[Pakky]

So been meaning to ask would Geno Blast act like Pikachu's Thunder?

 

[Droodle]

Anyone who says Steve wasn't requested by fans is talking out of their ass.

Anyone who says Steve was a pure fan request is ALSO talking out of their ass.

There is a difference between what , , / and are and what the mad blocky lad is.

See, Steve falls into the same boat as Jonesy or Tracer or pretty much any character from a game that has gotten extremely popular and is culturally relevant. However, Steve has the added bonus of being the biggest fish in this regard by being the face of the best selling game in the world to date. He also has the bonus of being around a lot longer than a lot of these others games, and with that length of time he has built a massive fanbase that genuinely loves Minecraft as opposed to just being current cultural flavor. This of course means that there can be a large amount of crossover between Minecraft fans and Smash fans because both fanbases are rather large, though I would like to point out an added factor that both games have massive appeal to casual gamers AND both games have big internet commodity with content creators who's whole channel focus on said game.

Hell, I used to argue all these reasons as to why he would never happen but even as someone who thought that way in the past I realized that none of those reasons made sense, and even in my most recent thoughts right before his reveal I never thought about him being more than a Mii Costume and maybe a bonus stage. Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but upon said hindsight it made so much more sense for him to be the next Microsoft rep than Chief and he never really had anything holding him back after B&K got in. This is mostly because I am so removed from Minecraft that even though it is SO GODDAMN HUGE it basically doesn't exist to me.

That said, you know that this is equal parts big time money as much as it is for the fans. Joker as well as Hero fall into this as well, with Joker leaning more towards the money and Hero being the Japan equivalent of Steve. In contrast, Geno has nothing but fan support going for him.

Basically, if the only reason the character ever had a chance to get in was because of all the fan demand for years, we consider them a fan pick.

If they have always been super popular and likely and have massive dollar signs attached to them, we consider them promotional.

If no one asked for them and they somehow still got in and it's clear it was only for those dollar signs, we call those shill picks.

If no one asked for them and they somehow still got in and there is no discernible reason as to why but they are a really odd choice, that's a Sakurai pick.

Source Gaming 2020 poll:
Steve - Placed 7th
Tracer - Placed 63rd
Jonesy - Placed 134th

Source Gaming 2019 poll:
Steve - Placed 6th
Tracer - Placed 77th
Jonesy - ??? (Couldn't find him at all)

In what way is Steve even close to Tracer or Jonesy. Unlike those 2, Steve has been highly requested for a long time (and I'm talking WITHIN Smash). The Dragon Quest comparison you made is more apt for sure; but everything else is hilariously wrong. Sure you could say Steve has other advantages outside of just fan-demand, but that doesn't change the fact that he does have tons of fan demand and hence does "qualify" as the fan demand character for E3.

What you're using as your "qualifications" for a "pure" fan demand character, really only apply to Geno or extremely small/inactive series at this point.
Because I doubt people would label characters like Crash, Sora, Doomguy, Master Chief, Dante, Ryu Hayabusa, Arle, Lloyd Irving, etc all as promotional characters. Same with characters like Mega Man in Smash 4 or Sonic in Brawl, all of these characters were super requested and super popular outside the Smash fanbase too.

They're still all fan-demand picks, but you could say that they have promotional benefits at the side. And if you do think that all of these (including Steve) aren't fan-demand characters, then I frankly think that's just gatekeeping.

And also Simon/Castlevania always had a good chunk of popularity/legacy outside of Smash. By your own criteria, they're a mixture of fan-demand and promotional characters, and hence shouldn't be in the "pure" fan-request list alongside the likes of K. Rool, Banjo, Ridley, and the like. I mean just in the previous year of them getting into Smash, there was a Netflix adaptation, not to mention that apparently the Konami pachinko machines are huge in Japan as well (they have Castlevania based ones too). They were undoubtedly carried by their ballot popularity, but that wasn't their only strength aeither.

We should drop the Steve talks, but he is undoubtedly a fan-request character (maybe not just carried by his requests); and for whatever reason, some people can't accept it.

 

[7NATOR]

Steve was especially Popular on Miiverse back in the day (which is a Site we know Sakurai used), along with other characters Like Goku, Shrek, Shadow, Finn and Jake, Waluigi, etc...

 

[MarioRaccoon]

I always thought that a promotional fighter is when the Smash Bros X “Insert fighter’s game logo” is the logo of the latest game, thats coming to switch, rather than the logo of the series in general.

For example, Byleth was “Smash Bros x Fire Emblem Three Houses” rather than “Smash Bros x Fire Emblem”, so I considered him/her as a promotional pick. Moreover, Hero was “Smash Bros x Dragon Quest XI S” so I also considered him as promotional pick.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

So I have a theory for you all that I believe lines up extremely well to not be just a coincidence, and it could greatly strengthen Geno's chances of appearing in this Pass.

At last year's E3, we had a double reveal with Hero and Banjo. However, my theory stems from what these characters are and what companies they are owned by. Hero is a Square Enix promotional character used to promote Dragon Quest 11, and Banjo is the big fan request from Microsoft. Hero was also revealed at the very beginning of the Direct, whereas Banjo was saved for the end.

So, what's the theory you may ask.

My theory is that when Square Enix and Microsoft negotiated to get their characters in FP1, Nintendo approached both companies about getting more characters of theirs for FP2 and they would both have characters revealed at next year's E3 as well, BUT the order will be reversed and now Microsoft would be the company to get a promotional character and Square will get a huge fan request included. As we established, its very likely that CP7 and CP8 would have been the E3 reveals (And before anyone mentions Min Min, its most likely that Min Min was planned to get revealed before E3 had COVID not f---ed up Nintendo's schedule). So, with this in mind, my theory is that Steve, a Microsoft-owned promotional character would start out this E3, with a Square Enix fan favorite cough Geno cough would be saved towards the end, which would be kinda like last year's E3, except both companies exchanges the type of character they are including, if this makes sense.

So to sum it up, last year's E3 featured a promotional Square Enix character to start out the Direct, and a huge fan request from Microsoft to end the Direct, so my theory is that for this year's E3, the order would have been a promotional character from Microsoft to start the Direct, and a huge fan request from Square Enix to end the Direct. I hope this theory makes sense to you all because I'm not sure if I explained it clearly.

Thing is though, Hero and Steve were heavily requested characters as well even if they were not the most requested character. A Dragon Quest rep started to become very requested by Japanese fans when they heard all the Erdrick leak talk going on last year within the community. It makes sense since Dragon Quest is so HUGE over there.

Steve was pretty requested as well even after Banjo & Kazooie got in, he remained in the top 10 in a lot of polls. Minecraft is just that big.

 

[Peepo T. Skeleton]

So been meaning to ask would Geno Blast act like Pikachu's Thunder?

If it looked and worked like it does in the original game, it would be multiple multicolored beams of light crashing down in front of him, rather than a single lightning bolt crashing on top of him.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Steve was especially Popular on Miiverse back in the day (which is a Site we know Sakurai used), along with other characters Like Goku, Shrek, Shadow, Finn and Jake, Waluigi, etc...

You know who was popular on Miiverse during the Smash Ballot days? K. Rool, Banjo & Kazooie, Shantae, and Shovel Knight. Remember seeing fanart all the time on Miiverse for these characters during the Ballot days.

 

[7NATOR]

You know who was popular on Miiverse during the Smash Ballot days? K. Rool, Banjo & Kazooie, Shantae, and Shovel Knight. Remember seeing fanart all the time on Miiverse for these characters during the Ballot days.

Yeah, for all the crazy stuff and crazy requests that go on during Miivese, he Fanart was really cool, and it was cool to look at it Playing on Miiverse stage. R.I.P Miiverse

Since K.Rool was mentioned, but Not Ridley, I wonder... Between K.Rool and Ridley, Was K.Rool usually the most popular of the Two? I could probably understand yes in Japan since Metroid in Japan isn't the biggest thing, but what about everywhere else

 

[Mr. Peepee]

Man, I wish Miiverse was on Switch. I didn't experience it at all during the Wii U era.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Yeah, for all the crazy stuff and crazy requests that go on during Miivese, he Fanart was really cool, and it was cool to look at it Playing on Miiverse stage. R.I.P Miiverse

Since K.Rool was mentioned, but Not Ridley, I wonder... Between K.Rool and Ridley, Was K.Rool usually the most popular of the Two? I could probably understand yes in Japan since Metroid in Japan isn't the biggest thing, but what about everywhere else

Ridley was only heavily requested in the USA as even Sakurai mentioned this when first showning off gameplay footage of him at the Treehouse. K. Rool on the other hand was heavily requested in almost all regions on the planet. K. Rool dominated the polls in the Americas, Europe, and Japan. He was probably the most heavily requested newcomer before Ultimate was announced.

 

[Peepo T. Skeleton]

Yeah, for all the crazy stuff and crazy requests that go on during Miivese, he Fanart was really cool, and it was cool to look at it Playing on Miiverse stage. R.I.P Miiverse

Since K.Rool was mentioned, but Not Ridley, I wonder... Between K.Rool and Ridley, Was K.Rool usually the most popular of the Two? I could probably understand yes in Japan since Metroid in Japan isn't the biggest thing, but what about everywhere else

I think I remember seeing more about Ridley than K. Rool, but that may have been due to the indignation caused by the Pyrosphere fake-out and the subsequent "too big" comments.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Man, I wish Miiverse was on Switch. I didn't experience it at all during the Wii U era.

It was fun, but also annoying sometimes as trolls would constantly try to spam porn art before they got banned. Some of my favorite Zelda and Smash memories was during my time at Miiverse.

 

[Enigma735]

Thing is though, Hero and Steve were heavily requested characters as well even if they were not the most requested character. A Dragon Quest rep started to become very requested by Japanese fans when they heard all the Erdrick leak talk going on last year within the community. It makes sense since Dragon Quest is so HUGE over there.

Steve was pretty requested as well even after Banjo & Kazooie got in, he remained in the top 10 in a lot of polls. Minecraft is just that big.

While Hero and Steve were requested, they were nowhere near as popular of requests unlike Ridley, King K. Rool, Banjo and Geno. Hero was a new request before he got included because of the leaks leading up to the reveal, and I would honestly say most Japanese fans wanted a Slime playable more then anything, and Steve is an even newer request and was only requested by more people after Banjo finally got included.

I'm well aware that these characters were heavily requested, but I don't think they were as popular as the four I mentioned, and I don't think fan demand was what got Hero and Steve in Smash, but rather the fact they are characters from extremely popular games.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

While Hero and Steve were requested, they were nowhere near as popular of requests unlike Ridley, King K. Rool, Banjo and Geno. Hero was a new request before he got included because of the leaks leading up to the reveal, and I would honestly say most Japanese fans wanted a Slime playable more then anything, and Steve is an even newer request and was only requested by more people after Banjo finally got included.

I'm well aware that these characters were heavily requested, but I don't think they were as popular as the four I mentioned, and I don't think fan demand was what got Hero and Steve in Smash, but rather the fact they are characters from extremely popular games.

True, but they were still requested characters though.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

If im beign honest, the simple reason why people don't see Steve as a big fan request, is because of the generational gap. There's a reason why Banjo fans get called Boomers and Steve fans Zoomers.

Characters like Sora are also more recent, but are still older to the point that it is associated with the older generations before the rise of Youtube Let's Players and Streamers and Meme Culture (which Minecraft plays a big role) and other stuff that make Minecraft look more recent than it actually is (remember, this game came out in '11) so to suporters of old school characters like Geno his support may seem not natural, and seems more like Joker where the character got added for recency even though that coulnd't be farther from the truth.

The opposite is true for Crash. He only became a talking point in Smash speculation these last 3 years, but the fanbase has less of an issue assimilating him because he fits more closely with the older generations of gamers that played Smash.

 

[Enigma735]

True, but they were still requested characters though.

Yeah I don't doubt that, and I know tons of people that were incredibly happy to have both of these characters in Smash. I just can't in a thousand years put them in the same league as Ridley, King K. Rool, Banjo & Kazooie and Geno because these four are essentially the "holy quartet" of highly requested characters that people have wanted to see for years, and I have no doubt in my mind that neither of these characters would be in the game if they weren't as requested as they were, whereas I'm sure Hero and Steve would be able to get in the game on their own merits, regardless of popularity.

Like I said, I'm aware people wanted Hero and Steve and I know TONS of people were happy to see them included, but I'm 99% sure they weren't included because of the demand.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Here’s how I see Steve:

Spoiler

He was a big fan request. Even before Banjo & Kazooie got in, a lot of people started asking for him. Yeah you could say rumors helped him a bit by making people comfortable to speak up about him and also realize “hey, I like that character! And I like Smash! I want him in Smash!” (I was that way with Skull Kid and kinda with Steve as well in 2018 despite loving them and thinking about Steve during the Smash 4 days; I wasn’t as serious about speculation etc.), but he did get requests back in the Smash 4 days as well on Miiverse and I’m sure in early Ultimate speculation as well when people weren’t afraid of jerks lashing at them.

The Codename Craft account - well, one of their old, falsely banned SteveForSmash accounts, also got 2k followers before the false ban which was before B&K got in iirc. Steve in Smash-related videos, or at least an animated moveset, also got over 100 thousand likes before Steve got in, the likes reaching that number even last year. Other videos got a lot of likes as well.

Now, of course, K. Rool, Ridley, Banjo & Kazooie, etc. were much bigger in the hardcore fanbase, but Steve wasn’t absent. In fact, the numbers supporting him were close to rivaling the others on twitter and YouTube and stuff. There were Brawl mods of him and Minecraft stages back in 2011 or so too. Of course, people wanting him in Smash and Minecraft on Nintendo systems wasn’t as long as demand relating to other characters, but that’s only because Minecraft didn’t exist pre-2009.

Mojang also really cares about their fans and their fans’ input, so I’m sure from their view they saw the fans and due to that dude who asked about Steve in Smash at Minecon 2018, maybe my feedback site post, and Twitter campaigns, I’m sure they were perfectly aware if they didn’t already see demand on Miiverse. The talks may have started in 2015, but it’s clear nothing was settled until 2018 or 2019. Minecraft is already big and reaches everyone on every platform, so I’m not sure if they cared that much for promotion however I guess they could have to an extent, as Smash could help pull some more Nintendo fans who haven’t already picked up their game.

Of course, from Nintendo’s point of view it was probably mainly their love for the game as well as Smash Bros. making more big bucks. Idk if they saw the fans or not, hopefully they did.

No way was it going to make Microsoft any XBox sales.

tl;dr: he is a fan pick, and isn’t just a recent fan pick. However, of course, he isn’t purely a fan pick, but demand for him rivaled that of other characters - just not in the hardcore fanbase, though I wonder if the campaigns on twitter would count as part of the hardcore fanbase? I mean, I guess I and others wouldn’t count either if they don’t even though we all love Smash and know about its stuffs...shrug

anyway back to Geno I guess.

edit: to be honest I’m not sure why any of this really matters. Y’know, as long as the chosen character makes people happy...

 

[Honest Slug]

It's hard to say how much of a "Fan Pick" Steve is because I distinctly remember back in the Smash 4 days Steve was considered a meme pick on par with Shrek or Goku. It wasn't until Ultimate that I saw a lot of unironic support for him and even then the pushback against him was pretty strong until he no longer had competition with Banjo.

There's a pretty big generational gap at play. Characters like Ridley, K Rool, Banjo and Geno were staples of the Brawl and to some extent the Smash 4 speculation period, way much more so than some of these new fan picks like Steve and Crash who are only with Ultimate starting to catch major traction. It's kind of hard to pinpoint who is more "Requested" since it requires asking whether the fan demand from Brawl/Smash 4 should carry over to the current game and whether the younger Smash audience is accurately reflected online.