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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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UltimateCyborgOverlord

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That front orange hair sticking out.
there is no way this is not inspired by Geno’s design!
TOTALLY not, nooooooooo. The orange hair sticking out, the hat, the whole "wooden robot" aesthetic and Mario RPG inspired isometric alt cover art... NOOOOOOOOOOOOO what do you mean she looks like Geno? That's a MYTH.

Hahaha no I'm kinda loving this. Having such a heavy reference to Mario RPG, it's such a weirdly specific thing for Sonic to do, which is funny because Sonic does a lot of weirdly specific things (turn into a rubber werewolf as a result of absorbing demonic energy from the center of the earth, become best friends with a "learn to fight" robot by punching him immediately after finding him washed up on the beach and then take him to your other best friend's house and beat him up some more, turn into a golden Super Saiyan hedgehog and get in a fight with a mutated water god, get in a fight with a jackal that has illusion powers as a result of having a gem presumably surgically inserted into his chest all while chasing said jackal on a giant snake, nearly get eaten by said giant snake while running through a casino forest and then just laugh it off, the existence of a casino forest at all, and of course, DIED because a demonic hedgehog from the future was split in two and needed to get his other half out of a princess so he stabbed Sonic but it was ok because the Chaos Emeralds can apparently revive people with their power and a ritual involving a kiss so Sonic came back, turned into a Super Saiyan with two of his friends and got in a fight with the sun god the act of which caused time itself to reverse and undo everything that happened in the last couple days.)

Sonic's a weird dude... but I like his style of weird. NOT-Geno will be welcomed with open arms
 

Griselda

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the Chaos Emeralds can apparently revive people with their power and a ritual involving a kiss so Sonic came back
I appreciate that you focused on the oddity of the Emeralds suddenly having revival powers (and everyone just apparently knowing about how to perform the ritual) instead of just 'ew talking hedgehog kissed a human' like I see so exhaustingly often. I've never minded interspecies romance especially when it's perfectly clear that they're on the same intelligence level, and it honestly makes me pretty uncomfortable to see so many people focusing on a couple not 'matching' the way they do with Sonic and Elise (who weren't even an actual couple, anyway).
So I dunno if you actually feel the same way I do about the subject, but I wanted to thank you for not jumping on that part of 06, all the same.

I'm hoping we get more SMRPG references from this character, beyond what we've seen so far. Since I've pretty much lost interest in Smash until the next character announcement, anything else Geno-related to think about is nice.
 

Sigran101

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I still don't believe there was "a list" that was ever presented to Sakurai by Nintendo and if there was we know Sakurai wouldn't have chosen Byleth off of this list. I know the list thing is a point of contention, but I still don't believe there's a reason to doubt that Nintendo comes to Sakurai with a character and Sakurai has the power to veto but never does so like Sakurai basically said is what happens.

But in the spirit of entertaining this, it's possible (if this were real) it was just for FP1 which would explain the absence of Min Min and Steve being negotiated for for a long time actually kind of supports this. It's possible that Byleth was forced by Nintendo and FP2 was sparked by negotiations for Steve and request for ARMS which shifted the original list so to speak. I don't buy it, but...it's possible.
I know I'm late, but soooooo much this. Everyone talks about this list Nintendo presented Sakurai that he picked characters off of as if it's confirmed fact when, in fact, it's 100% made up by fans. No one at Nintendo has said anything that remotely implies a list. Sakurai has said over and over and over that Nintendo chooses the characters and his only power is to veto it if he can't do it justice. The list is literally just not a thing and there has never been any evidence that it is.
 

Theguy123

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I appreciate that you focused on the oddity of the Emeralds suddenly having revival powers (and everyone just apparently knowing about how to perform the ritual) instead of just 'ew talking hedgehog kissed a human' like I see so exhaustingly often. I've never minded interspecies romance especially when it's perfectly clear that they're on the same intelligence level, and it honestly makes me pretty uncomfortable to see so many people focusing on a couple not 'matching' the way they do with Sonic and Elise (who weren't even an actual couple, anyway).
So I dunno if you actually feel the same way I do about the subject, but I wanted to thank you for not jumping on that part of 06, all the same.

I'm hoping we get more SMRPG references from this character, beyond what we've seen so far. Since I've pretty much lost interest in Smash until the next character announcement, anything else Geno-related to think about is nice.
all this sonic talking and the chaos emeralds just gave me a great idea of what geno’s reveal trailer for smash should be. Never thought I’d hear me say Geno and sonic in the same sentence lol
 

Peepo T. Skeleton

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Looking at that mountain pile of discarded robots just makes me miss Gamma even more. I know he was in Sonic Battle but I wish Sega would bring him back somehow. Assuming Omega was supposed to be his replacement he never really did it for me, and I thought his voice was annoying (Omega in the comics was funny though).
Haha yeah 6 year old me cried when Gamma died.
 

Megadoomer

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Papa is FINALLY predicting who he thinks are the remaining characters on the Fighters Pass!
Surprised at how close this is to my own prediction; the only difference is that I figure we're going to get at least one first party character rather than Crash. (then again, I haven't seen that alleged Crash five year plan document) Hopefully Geno isn't the last character, though - I don't want to wait that long and worry throughout all of the Mii costume reveals for the next three characters.
 

UltimateCyborgOverlord

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I know I'm late, but soooooo much this. Everyone talks about this list Nintendo presented Sakurai that he picked characters off of as if it's confirmed fact when, in fact, it's 100% made up by fans. No one at Nintendo has said anything that remotely implies a list. Sakurai has said over and over and over that Nintendo chooses the characters and his only power is to veto it if he can't do it justice. The list is literally just not a thing and there has never been any evidence that it is.
At the risk of starting an argument (I don't want to start an argument, I just want to display an open mind), I'm gonna say that I'd personally guess that Nintendo DOES formalize it in SOME way, they probably don't just waltz into Sakurai's office and go "Can you put THIS guy in Smash?" every other day or so. I'm sure they probably do put together a list of characters based on popularity, Nintendo's own agendas, etcetera etcetera, maybe divide it into tiers of priority or whatever ("We'd really like to promote Dragon Quest outside of Japan" tier down to "We might not ever get a Nintendo exclusive Banjo game ever again but the fans would like it" tier and other tiers), try to figure out if it's possible/companies are willing to work together, and THEN comes the whole coming into Sakurai's office and saying the whole "can you put this in Smash" thing that Sakurai described... not necessarily in that exact order.

Point is, I'm sure there's at least SOME kind of formal process involved in brainstorming characters, such as, but not limited to, a list.

Plus... I tend to trust Xenother... Xenother's a good kid.
 
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Peepo T. Skeleton

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At the risk of starting an argument (I don't want to start an argument, I just want to display an open mind), I'm gonna say that I'd personally guess that Nintendo DOES formalize it in SOME way, they probably don't just waltz into Sakurai's office and go "Can you put THIS guy in Smash?" every other day or so. I'm sure they probably do put together a list of characters based on popularity, Nintendo's own agendas, etcetera etcetera, maybe divide it into tiers of priority or whatever ("We'd really like to promote Dragon Quest outside of Japan" tier down to "We might not ever get a Nintendo exclusive Banjo game ever again but the fans would like it" tier and other tiers), try to figure out if it's possible/companies are willing to work together, and THEN comes the whole coming into Sakurai's office and saying the whole "can you put this in Smash" thing that Sakurai described... not necessarily in that exact order.

Point is, I'm sure there's at least SOME kind of formal process involved in brainstorming characters, such as, but not limited to, a list.

Plus... I tend to trust Xenother... Xenother's a good kid.
I personally don't believe the list is real but I can see where you're coming from with that.
 

Fatmanonice

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I don't think there was ever a true list because several companies have hard debunked the idea. For example, Zenimax saying earlier this year that Nintendo has never approached them about anything serious, which totally flies in the face of Doom Slayer being on a list. Honestly, if there's "a list", it's probably companies, not characters.
 

Sigran101

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At the risk of starting an argument (I don't want to start an argument, I just want to display an open mind), I'm gonna say that I'd personally guess that Nintendo DOES formalize it in SOME way, they probably don't just waltz into Sakurai's office and go "Can you put THIS guy in Smash?" every other day or so. I'm sure they probably do put together a list of characters based on popularity, Nintendo's own agendas, etcetera etcetera, maybe divide it into tiers of priority or whatever ("We'd really like to promote Dragon Quest outside of Japan" tier down to "We might not ever get a Nintendo exclusive Banjo game ever again but the fans would like it" tier and other tiers), try to figure out if it's possible/companies are willing to work together, and THEN comes the whole coming into Sakurai's office and saying the whole "can you put this in Smash" thing that Sakurai described... not necessarily in that exact order.

Point is, I'm sure there's at least SOME kind of formal process involved in brainstorming characters, such as, but not limited to, a list.

Plus... I tend to trust Xenother... Xenother's a good kid.
While I understand where you're coming from, your argument is just based on how you feel about it aside from the leak. Mine is based on actual quotes from Sakurai, and 100% of those say no list. I'm going to take Sakurai's official word over Xenother's as well.
 

UltimateCyborgOverlord

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While I understand where you're coming from, your argument is just based on how you feel about it aside from the leak. Mine is based on actual quotes from Sakurai, and 100% of those say no list. I'm going to take Sakurai's official word over Xenother's as well.
Well I don't really FEEL about it one way or the other, I just like to maintain an open mind, that's all. I'm evil that way.
 

UltimateCyborgOverlord

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Fair enough. But at the end of the day it's your word against Sakurai's.
At the end of the day, all I'm really saying is, list or not, there's probably some kind of process that Nintendo/Bandai Namco or whoever formally goes through to brainstorm possible fighters, and that process is likely done by the time they get to asking Sakurai about it whilst "peering over their glasses". It's a thought I threw at the wall really, not really "my word". Weirder things have happened, such as the FBI casually revealing that Nikola Tesla was from Venus according to what they heard from "The Space People".

If you're wanting to know how I FEEL, I FEEL like Bad Mr Frosty needs to be on a "let's see about putting him in this game sometime". That list has a notable lack of Clayfighter. Preorder CANCELLED
 

7NATOR

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I do think Nintendo and Sakurai probably have long Conversations about the Potential fighters to be added. I think at the end of the Day Nintendo gets the Final Say in if a character could be Playable or Not, but I don't think every Character, Company, franchise is Outright Suggested by Nintendo. I'm sure Sakurai probably also voices his Suggestions (I think Joker and Terry in Particular came from Sakurai, even if SNK and Atlus were suggested by Nintendo)
 
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Vector Victor

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Surprised at how close this is to my own prediction; the only difference is that I figure we're going to get at least one first party character rather than Crash. (then again, I haven't seen that alleged Crash five year plan document) Hopefully Geno isn't the last character, though - I don't want to wait that long and worry throughout all of the Mii costume reveals for the next three characters.
Or the fact that unless character 11 is a giant big named shocking addition (which maybe there are 4 characters who can meet that) then 11 is going to be hated as a disappointment and failure to end the biggest Smash game ever. So I want Geno earlier than that, like character 8 or 9.


And, IF IF IF IF there were never any plans to promote Geno to playable from day one, then can they just release his damn Mii costume already? Its bad enough he would be skipped over, but can we at least get some time to enjoy the consolation prize instead of waiting near the end of Ultimate's life span?
 
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Mr. Peepee

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At this point this is pretty much Arms speculation where we nailed down all of the fighters that could happen. Its only a matter of time.
 

Firox

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While I understand where you're coming from, your argument is just based on how you feel about it aside from the leak. Mine is based on actual quotes from Sakurai, and 100% of those say no list. I'm going to take Sakurai's official word over Xenother's as well.
To be fair, UltimateCyborgOverlord may have a point in that Sakurai isn't intimately involved in the corporate decision making process. From his perspective, there doesn't seem to be a list, but just because he never saw one, doesn't mean that the execs didn't have a brainstorming session with a whiteboard or something and strategically determined the pool of addable fighters. It's not like Nintendo just thought these picks up on the spot. As with any kind of strategic planning, it is almost required to have a written or visual breakdown of the ideas proposed and then the group decides which options are best. To deny even the possibility of a list somewhere at any point in the planning process just seems incredibly close-minded. And who cares if he had one in the first place? At the end of the day, it still boils down to Sakurai being fed character proposals and him deciding whether to do it or not. Considering the absolute monster that Steve was to program, and Sakurai's apparent attitude of "It's virtually impossible, but why the hell not? Sure, I'll do it" I have a hard time believing that Sakurai has vetoed anything they've slid past him so far.
 
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Heoj

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So it seems Atelier Ryza was disconfirmed, definitely a bonus for Ryu Hayabusa. (though if im being honest I never thought Ryza had a chance anyways so yeh)

 
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7NATOR

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To be fair, UltimateCyborgOverlord may have a point in that Sakurai isn't intimately involved in the corporate decision making process. From his perspective, there doesn't seem to be a list, but just because he never saw one, doesn't mean that the execs didn't have a brainstorming session with a whiteboard or something and strategically determine the pool of addable fighters. It's not like Nintendo just thought these picks up on the spot. As with any kind of strategic planning, it is almost required to have a written or visual breakdown of the ideas proposed and then the group decides which options are best. To deny even the possibility of a list somewhere at any point in the planning process just seems incredibly close-minded. And who cares if he had one in the first place? At the end of the day, it still boils down to Sakurai being fed character proposals and him deciding whether to do it or not. Considering the absolute monster that Steve was to program, and Sakurai's apparent attitude of "It's virtually impossible, but why the hell not? Sure, I'll do it" I have a hard time believing that Sakurai has vetoed anything they've slid past him so far.
I'll be Honest, I'm pretty sure that Sakurai has Vetoed stuff.

While Steve was hard to Program, Keep in Mine that Minecraft is the Best Selling Game on Earth, Has had alot of Switch Sales, And Steve has been a Requested character for the Casual Fans of Smash and Even some of the Hardcore Crowd. If Steve was More Niche, or perhaps not as requested I'm sure the Sakurai would have vetoed it. Pretty much What I'm saying is that Steve was worth the Effort


That Might not apply to Other characters unfortunately. Of course we wouldn't know who since I doubt they talked about who got Cut from the Process and such.
 

Fatmanonice

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I don't think Geno's last just because Smash has a sort of order to things. DLC for all three seasons so far has started with Nintendo itself, then its second parties (if there are any), then companies already in Smash, and then brand new companies. They only seem to break this with "bonus" characters. Let me outline it:

Smash 4: TPC, Itoi, Intelligent Systems, Capcom USA, Square Enix, (bonus), SEGA/Platinum

Fighter's Pass: (bonus), SEGA/Atlus, Square/Armor Project, Microsoft/RARE, SNK, Intelligent Systems/Koei Tecmo

Season 2: Nintendo, Microsoft/Mojang

Something else that I kind of want to flop around about for a bit is that totally new companies don't happen a lot and most are tied to companies already involved in Smash. With Ultimate, we've had only two so far that were totally new to Smash: Microsoft and SNK. Notice the ones with "slashes" because I think it's eyebrow wiggle worthy. Let me explain...

Here's all the new third party characters in Ultimate:

Simon- Konami
Richter- Konami
Ken- Capcom/Capcom USA
Joker- SEGA/Atlus
Hero- Square/Armor Project
Banjo- Microsoft/RARE
Terry- SNK
Byleth (yes, I know they're owned by Nintendo, shut up...)- Intelligent Systems/Koei Tecmo
Steve?- Microsoft/Mojang

Notice anything? There's no new purely Square, Koei Tecmo, Microsoft, SEGA, or Capcom characters in Ultimate. Interesting... SEGA is the only one I would argue against because it already has 3 franchises represented by 3 unique characters. On that note, here's where things currently stand with playable characters and third parties:

Konami- 2 unique, 1 echo (all 3 in base)
SEGA- 3 unique (2 in base, 1 DLC)
Capcom- 2 unique, 1 echo (all 3 in base)
Namco- 1 unique (base)
Square Enix - 2 unique (1 base, 1 DLC)
Microsoft - 2 unique (2 DLC)
SNK- 1 unique (1 DLC)
Koei Tecmo- 1 unique (1 DLC)

Looking this over, it suggests that companies will try to have a rep that purely represents their company, followed by characters created or owned by their partners, including Nintendo. In a way, Byleth and Geno are kind of similar. Going off this idea, we can put the following hypothesis on the table:

-Capcom will try to get another rep created by one of its partners

-Square will try to get another rep created by one of its partners

-Microsoft will try to get a purely Microsoft rep

-Koei Tecmo will try to get a purely Koei Tecmo rep
 

Joshdabozz

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So it seems Atelier Ryza was disconfirmed, definitely a bonus for Ryu Hayabusa. (though if im being honest I never thought Ryza had a chance anyways so yeh)

I have literally never heard of this character. Ryu Hayabusa seems like he is coming, same with Crash, Geno Could easily come also, and for my final pick I feel Rex and Pyra honestly.
 

Joshdabozz

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I don't think Geno's last just because Smash has a sort of order to things. DLC for all three seasons so far has started with Nintendo itself, then its second parties (if there are any), then companies already in Smash, and then brand new companies. They only seem to break this with "bonus" characters. Let me outline it:

Smash 4: TPC, Itoi, Intelligent Systems, Capcom USA, Square Enix, (bonus), SEGA/Platinum

Fighter's Pass: (bonus), SEGA/Atlus, Square/Armor Project, Microsoft/RARE, SNK, Intelligent Systems/Koei Tecmo

Season 2: Nintendo, Microsoft/Mojang

Something else that I kind of want to flop around about for a bit is that totally new companies don't happen a lot and most are tied to companies already involved in Smash. With Ultimate, we've had only two so far that were totally new to Smash: Microsoft and SNK. Notice the ones with "slashes" because I think it's eyebrow wiggle worthy. Let me explain...

Here's all the new third party characters in Ultimate:

Simon- Konami
Richter- Konami
Ken- Capcom/Capcom USA
Joker- SEGA/Atlus
Hero- Square/Armor Project
Banjo- Microsoft/RARE
Terry- SNK
Byleth (yes, I know they're owned by Nintendo, shut up...)- Intelligent Systems/Koei Tecmo
Steve?- Microsoft/Mojang

Notice anything? There's no new purely Square, Koei Tecmo, Microsoft, SEGA, or Capcom characters in Ultimate. Interesting... SEGA is the only one I would argue against because it already has 3 franchises represented by 3 unique characters. On that note, here's where things currently stand with playable characters and third parties:

Konami- 2 unique, 1 echo (all 3 in base)
SEGA- 3 unique (2 in base, 1 DLC)
Capcom- 2 unique, 1 echo (all 3 in base)
Namco- 1 unique (base)
Square Enix - 2 unique (1 base, 1 DLC)
Microsoft - 2 unique (2 DLC)
SNK- 1 unique (1 DLC)
Koei Tecmo- 1 unique (1 DLC)

Looking this over, it suggests that companies will try to have a rep that purely represents their company, followed by characters created or owned by their partners, including Nintendo. In a way, Byleth and Geno are kind of similar. Going off this idea, we can put the following hypothesis on the table:

-Capcom will try to get another rep created by one of its partners

-Square will try to get another rep created by one of its partners

-Microsoft will try to get a purely Microsoft rep

-Koei Tecmo will try to get a purely Koei Tecmo rep
Your logic actually makes a lot of sense tbh.
 

UberPyro64

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I'm just going to bet on this:

Crash, Dante, Geno, Gordon, Hayabusa, Master Chief.

That's six. Four of them will be in. Why Gordon? Well, he's my most wanted and with the few things about Nintendo actively wanting to work with Valve, Smash might be the start of that. (Assuming Half-Life: Tactics was really canceled and not just pushed to the side). Plus, if Doomguy and Master Chief aren't going to be in, Gordon is next in line for a potential FPS rep.

At this point, I'm more confident in Crash and Hayabusa, but no one else. Geno still makes sense, but I'm starting to lose hope, so he's who I place in fifth place right now. I think Dante will be the last character. A repeat of Smash 4 with how Bayonetta was the last Fighter. Both being Kamiya characters and such.
Master Chief is last on this, but if any company could break the one per company rule, it would be Microsoft, so I'm not counting him out yet.
 
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7NATOR

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Maybe the Doomguy in Smash interview happened before Fighter Pass 2 happened?
The Interview was a Few days Before the Byleth Presentation Video, where it was said The FP2 Roster was finalized. Considering the Presentation was recorded in november, that's no good sign
 

Mr. Peepee

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I kinda feel like if they said “no comment” like Suda51, people would assume Doomguy is in. Maybe that’s why they had a lengthy response?
 

Peepo T. Skeleton

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I kinda feel like if they said “no comment” like Suda51, people would assume Doomguy is in. Maybe that’s why they had a lengthy response?
Yeah, it's kind of impossible to know until it either happens or doesn't happen, but afaik no company has straight up said it wasn't happening and then it did anyway.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this because it's kinda important.
 

CopperKoopa

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Wasnt Ryza highly speculated to be DLC last fighters pass?
This is kind of a "no duh" statement though. She was rumored/speculated because of a series of 4chan "leaks," but saying that the dev team "wants her for Smash" is like a kid saying "I want a Nintendo Switch for Christmas!"

No **** you want your character in Smash. Every dev probably does. It's not some far flung rare desire -- Smash is a huge marketing platform at this point, of course you want your product to make an appearance.
 

CopperKoopa

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I don't think Geno's last just because Smash has a sort of order to things. DLC for all three seasons so far has started with Nintendo itself, then its second parties (if there are any), then companies already in Smash, and then brand new companies. They only seem to break this with "bonus" characters. Let me outline it:

Smash 4: TPC, Itoi, Intelligent Systems, Capcom USA, Square Enix, (bonus), SEGA/Platinum

Fighter's Pass: (bonus), SEGA/Atlus, Square/Armor Project, Microsoft/RARE, SNK, Intelligent Systems/Koei Tecmo

Season 2: Nintendo, Microsoft/Mojang

Something else that I kind of want to flop around about for a bit is that totally new companies don't happen a lot and most are tied to companies already involved in Smash. With Ultimate, we've had only two so far that were totally new to Smash: Microsoft and SNK. Notice the ones with "slashes" because I think it's eyebrow wiggle worthy. Let me explain...

Here's all the new third party characters in Ultimate:

Simon- Konami
Richter- Konami
Ken- Capcom/Capcom USA
Joker- SEGA/Atlus
Hero- Square/Armor Project
Banjo- Microsoft/RARE
Terry- SNK
Byleth (yes, I know they're owned by Nintendo, shut up...)- Intelligent Systems/Koei Tecmo
Steve?- Microsoft/Mojang

Notice anything? There's no new purely Square, Koei Tecmo, Microsoft, SEGA, or Capcom characters in Ultimate. Interesting... SEGA is the only one I would argue against because it already has 3 franchises represented by 3 unique characters. On that note, here's where things currently stand with playable characters and third parties:

Konami- 2 unique, 1 echo (all 3 in base)
SEGA- 3 unique (2 in base, 1 DLC)
Capcom- 2 unique, 1 echo (all 3 in base)
Namco- 1 unique (base)
Square Enix - 2 unique (1 base, 1 DLC)
Microsoft - 2 unique (2 DLC)
SNK- 1 unique (1 DLC)
Koei Tecmo- 1 unique (1 DLC)

Looking this over, it suggests that companies will try to have a rep that purely represents their company, followed by characters created or owned by their partners, including Nintendo. In a way, Byleth and Geno are kind of similar. Going off this idea, we can put the following hypothesis on the table:

-Capcom will try to get another rep created by one of its partners

-Square will try to get another rep created by one of its partners

-Microsoft will try to get a purely Microsoft rep

-Koei Tecmo will try to get a purely Koei Tecmo rep
I get what you're selling here, but I think it's a little too deep in the weeds. I think you're on the money about which devs are involved and why, but I don't think there's anything deeper than "we've worked with them before so wtf not?"

I think the choices for what 3rd party content gets included in Smash boil down to 3 simple tenants, which you yourself hit on several times Fatmanonice Fatmanonice :
  1. Is this 3rd party "partner" (Nintendo's word, not mine, but it's the key word here) working with Nintendo actively in the here and now?
  2. Is this a developer that already has a presence within Smash or have they worked with us on Smash in the past?
  3. Is the IP in question something we can feasibly include in Smash Bros. and get some value out of it?
I don't think it's about the numbers or the recognizability or even relevance. Yes, shilling, economics and fan service do play into it 100%. But I think it's really just as simple as those 3 things above: Do we know these guys? Did they work with us before? Oh, cool, what valuable and reasonable stuff do they have that would make the fans, our partners and our wallets happy?

There's a lot of intersection between what everyone is saying and my personal tenants above, so none of this should sound like crazy talk to you guys. But based on everything I've heard and my own mantra right up there, I'm thinking we probably know the final 4 as they've been speculated to death and we just don't have confirmation on them yet. I think there's a few surprises, sure, but I don't think anything we don't expect at some level. The cards all laid out, we just need to pull the right ones.

EDIT: I know I posted my guesses on the last 4 somewhere further back in the thread, but I've had some more time to think and I'm going to lay out briefly my thoughts...

(in no particular order)
Geno - No need to explain why in this thread :p. I think he'll either be the TGA reveal, E3 2021, or the final character. He could fit anywhere
Ryu Hayabusa - So much smoke it's hard to think he isn't coming. Maybe he gets Mii Costumed, but it makes too much sense to include him. Ninja Gaiden is right up there with Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Mega Man, and Castlevania as one of the greats of the NES console. He will either be the TGA reveal or kicked further down the pass. Also K-T hits all 3 of my tenants.
Dante - A lot of smoke here too. Capcom definitely gets one more character based on hitting all 3 of my tenants. He could also be a TGA reveal or the back end of the pass.
Crash - Not as much smoke, but it makes a lot of sense esp if the "leak" is to be believed. He will be the tail end of the pass, maybe closing it out OR an E3 2021 reveal. I'd be shocked if he's announced sooner than that, but that's just a gut feeling. Activision hits 2 of the 3 tenants, ven if Crash is not closely identified with Nintendo and Activision is really just the license holder for his IP. However, Activision is now tied to the Switch, worked with Nintendo on the Wii U (Skylanders), and Crash would be a huge get for Smash. The 1 tenant they don't hit is the prior participation in Smash piece, but similar to Banjo I think the value of getting Crash is enough to circumvent that goal through brute force.
 
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ForsakenM

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I hope you all are ready for Genovember, cuz it's getting closer every day that passes.

In other thoughts, have any of you played Cadence of Hyrule or Crypt of the Necrodancer? I haven't and currently cannot and I was wondering exactly how the moving and attacking to the beat works. Is it just an automatic thing, or are you punished for missing the beat a la Rhythm Heaven or a game of DDR?
 

Fatmanonice

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I would say the big reason to expect Crash is because, ironically, when Ultimate began, the big three Western companies that people argued would be most likely to get a rep were Microsoft, Blizzard/Activision, and Bethesda. Microsoft now owns Bethesda so that, uh, kind of narrows things down. Kind of like I pointed out earlier, if a company only has one rep in Smash,they go with a character that's purely owned by them. So far we've seen this with:

Brawl- Sonic, Snake
Smash 4- Pac-Man, Cloud
Ultimate- Terry

So, unless by some miracle Blizzard/Activision gets multiple reps, they're going to go with their biggest character which is Crash.
 

Kremling Kommander

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So since some people have done their predictions for the rest of the pass, I figured I’d do mine(not in any particular order):
Geno: Self explanatory. Very requested character, Mii Costume hasn’t shown up yet and the piles of evidence that imply his inclusion.
Crash: Popular video game icon from the 90s, Western character who happens to have a lot of requests from both Smash and casual fans, and has been having a revival surge for the last 4 or 5 years. I feel like Crash is a shoe-in at this point, and I will be genuinely surprised if he’s not.
Lloyd Irving: Admittingly I’m not interested in Lloyd, but I still won’t deny that he has good factors towards his inclusion. His costume is the only Namco costume that hasn’t come back yet, Namco has plans for the 25th anniversary of the Tales series and Sakurai chose Lloyd for the Tales costume instead of someone popular like Yuri. I could also see someone like Klonoa or a Digimon getting in, but Lloyd is the most likely imo.
Dante: Even though Dante already missed the boat for FP1, the producer said that if he got into Smash, he would like the series to at least be on a Nintendo platform first, and sure enough we got the first three. I had been predicting before the fall Direct last year that if more DLC was announced, Dante was going to be one of them, and sure enough more is coming, so my stance has not changed. With that aside, Dante has crazy moveset potential and he would be a perfect fit, and this is coming from someone who hasn’t even played the games.
Honorable Mentions:
Bandanna Dee
Dixie
Rex and Pyra/Mythra
Waluigi
Sora
Rayman
Doom Slayer or Master Chief
Isaac
 

Droodle

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My best guess is:

  • Min Min
  • Steve

And in no particular order,
  • Arle Nadja
  • Square Enix Rep (Geno, 2B, Bravely etc)
  • Ryu Hayabusa/Dante/Lloyd
  • Rex and Pyra/MonolithSoft rep

Explanations

Arle Nadja: I honestly think people underestimate Arle a ton, I think she has the potential to be the BANJO of this pass. Well, not exactly for us; but in Japan she's probably the "biggest never-ever" left, she's been highly requested since Smash 4 (and maybe even before that), and has consistently been at the top of the speculation scene for a long, long time. There is no way Nintendo hasn't noticed her popularity over there yet. I think Smash also tries to reach for new audiences with MOST of the DLC and having a Puyo Puyo character would definitely bring in a new audience to Smash. Sakurai could probably think of clever ways to translate her puzzle mechanics, as well as give her the RPG spells to make for a interesting playstyle. Besides if the rumors surrounding Reimu are anything to go by (but she's a mii costume), I think she would fit in really well with Arle's wave.

Square-Enix character: I think it's most likely Geno, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone else gets in over him. In particular 2B, Bravely, Lara Croft and Crono are still possible and to a lesser extent Neku Sakuraba. If we follow patterns, then the mii costumes should return with Square-Enix's 2nd character; but at the same time if we also follow patterns, Nintendo/Square always picks their biggest hitters in terms of Smash so far. We got Cloud in Smash 4, and Hero in Smash Ultimate; both of which are industry icons. While I don't really think that a ton of the other non-FF characters are nearly as big, you cannot deny the iconicity of Lara Croft; who is a HUGE character or 2B who is a pretty big modern icon.

While Lara Croft's Smash fanbase is middling, and really low in Japan, we have had non-"requested" character in Smash before as DLC and there are probably some locations where she's huge (like Terry). 2B's biggest obstacle is the lack of a Nintendo connection, but I think that "rule" is just hanging on by a thread; Nier is probably the series Square is the most interested in expanding currently. Bravely is just about to get a new game on the Switch and Asano has been supporting Nintendo systems for the last decade, we already know after Bravely that a new Octopath is coming out. And a Job Switching mechanic sounds like something right up Sakurai's alley. And Crono is an anomaly, outside of Sora (who is understandable), Crono is the only character from the Seven Squares who's game doesn't have any content in Smash. If the leaks are true, we know that Sora was at the very least planned for; which makes Chrono Trigger's lack in Smash even more of an anomaly. He's been inactive for a long time just like Geno, but I am pretty sure there are a lot of people out there that would consider Smash X Chrono Trigger a bigger headline than Smash X SMRPG. Neku makes sense from a promotional standpoint due to the very likely sequel, and the upcoming anime adaptation.

Ryu Hayabusa/Dante/Lloyd: I'm unsure of which one would get in, but maybe we'll get 2 of them? I think Ryu Hayabusa has the best shot with all the things pointing towards him after Steve (especially the early "leak"). Koei Tecmo missing a fighter, is probably the only thing that's more surprising than Namco not getting a second one. They've been close to Nintendo forever, and have worked on a lot of 1st party stuff like Fire Emblem and Hyrule Warriors.I think the trilogy collection got leaked, which is another bonus point for Hayabusa.

I don't think we'd get BOTH Dante/Lloyd though. Primarily because I feel as though Nintendo tries to go for "different gimmicks" with each fighter, and I think Devil Trigger and Overlimit would likely share a lot of similarities. Both would likely be a gauge that grant them more speed/power/and new attacks, obviously though we could get a scenario where Devil Trigger is Dante's Final Smash and a style gauge is his gimmick, so then Lloyd could have access to overlimit; but I don't really think they'd do that. If we do get Ryu + 1 more of these then I'd replace Arle with that.

Rex and Pyra/MonolithSoft Rep: I think we'll probably end off the pass with a more recent 1st party character; I know Papa thinks that they wouldn't do that, "they'll end off Ultimate on a high note"; but I doubt it. They were literally ready to end off Ultimate with Byleth, who is far more controversial. Rex and Pyra have tons of requests in Japan, and a good amount over here too. After Min Min, I think we'll probably get them. Some people always bring up the excuse that "they got a mii costume as DLC so they'd never happen", but is it really such a big deal? We know the mii costume was in fact meant for base because Nia's costume is already present there.

And sure, maybe that really means they are disconfirmed for whatever reason. But then you open up the possibility of us getting Lora and Jin instead, who were the main characters of the DLC/standalone game; XC 2 Torna has had no content since release either, and Octopath Traveler showcases that they have no problems giving spirit events years down the line (and we already passed Torna's 2nd year anniversary last month, unlike Octopath which got a spirit event to celebrate it's 2nd year). And heck if we go for a "promotional" pick for next year, MonolithSoft has had a unknown action game in the works for around 4 years at this point; and according to interviews, Xenoblade 3 should be deep into development now (started in 2018), either one of those games could release next year. The point is that getting a Monolith/Xeno rep in some way is super likely.

Honorable Mentions: Crash, Zelda rep, Yuri Lowell, Monster Hunter, any character from Nihon Falcom, and more.
Crash: There is no proof that the document is real and the source is very much "Dude, trust me bro". Maybe it is, but who knows. Even if it is, there is always the chance of a Crash mii costume or a spirit event. I think Steve was our big Western Rep for the pass, and heck the trailer even had some emphasis on Mario and Sonic.

Zelda Rep: BoTW 2 will be huge, but I don't think they'll go for a Zelda character; especially after giving us a Zelda costume as a bonus for this pass.

Yuri Lowell: I think Lloyd is more likely.

Monster Hunter: Good shot, wouldn't be surprised if it makes it in.

Nihon Falcom: Huge SNK-like legacy, but with 4 slots left; I don't know about their chances. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a spirit event of Ys or Trails down the line though. Even some Mii costumes.
 

Sigran101

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To be fair, UltimateCyborgOverlord may have a point in that Sakurai isn't intimately involved in the corporate decision making process. From his perspective, there doesn't seem to be a list, but just because he never saw one, doesn't mean that the execs didn't have a brainstorming session with a whiteboard or something and strategically determined the pool of addable fighters. It's not like Nintendo just thought these picks up on the spot. As with any kind of strategic planning, it is almost required to have a written or visual breakdown of the ideas proposed and then the group decides which options are best. To deny even the possibility of a list somewhere at any point in the planning process just seems incredibly close-minded. And who cares if he had one in the first place? At the end of the day, it still boils down to Sakurai being fed character proposals and him deciding whether to do it or not. Considering the absolute monster that Steve was to program, and Sakurai's apparent attitude of "It's virtually impossible, but why the hell not? Sure, I'll do it" I have a hard time believing that Sakurai has vetoed anything they've slid past him so far.
Oh absolutely there was a list at some point. But people keep saying that Sakurai picked characters from a list Nintendo gave him as if it's confirmed fact, and that is simply untrue. Nintendo probably had a list before they narrowed it down to Steve, but according to Sakurai, Nintendo literally showed up at his workplace and told him to add Minecraft to smash. He didn't pick Steve off a list.
 

Fatmanonice

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We talked about yesterday about why Geno was in the base game despite being a Square Enix character and why this was different from the Monster Hunter content. I realized the answer is actually really, really simple: Nintendo published Super Mario RPG.


This is also why Fatal Frame had content in the base game despite being Koei Tecmo and why there was Kingdom Battle stuff despite being Ubisoft. I also want to say that Nintendo was the publisher for the Shovel Knight and Shantae games in Asia too. Actually... Hold the phone... !


Nintendo was the publisher of the first two Banjo games, Bayonetta 2, and Fire Emblem: Three Houses so we technically already have three characters in Smash that were created by a third party but their respective games were published by Nintendo.

 
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