Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Trevenant]

So have any of you guys seen this video by Slackerz covering this 4chan leak claiming to know the list of characters Nintendo gave to Sakurai to choose from for the DLC? Interesting thing about this leak is that it was posted in May of 2019 and it has Joker, Erdrick, Banjo, Terry, Byleth, and Steve on it as well as a couple of other dozens of names. Suspicious thing about the leak is that Min Min/Arms character nor Geno was on the list which makes me write this off as fake. But it is to be expected from 4chan.

Welcome newcomer.

I originally thought this was made this year but it wasn't so it got the whole first pass and Steve. It's pretty obviously fake though. Why?
-The comment on Gen 8 Pokemon and first parties in general at the end which were pretty common indicators for leaks that were total bs in the run-up to Ultimate. The ideology behind it is as you are role-playing as a leaker on 4chan and there is a character you don't want to make it in or you prefer, you put them in your leak to convince people they are happening(even though it's obvious that it won't work
-Prescence of Erdrick and Luminary together is weird but the seven squares leak literally had those 2 characters on it being the only DQ characters in it aside from Slime who was looking less likely to get the nod as time went on
-Prescence of Terry is weird too especially considering not even in the run-up to the SNK leak were people confident in Terry even though it was him but it seems they handpicked a few large companies close to Nintendo (which is probably why Level 5 is there too) and they just picked the obvious choice.
-Prescence of Byleth was weird too when Edelgard was the talk of the town but aside from the fact that any character from the game was always really likely, Byleth was the avatar so he was the obvious choice by default.
-No Min Min
-Has Steve a year before his actual reveal around the time when it was pretty commonplace to see peg him in as a shoo in on predictions lists. Although talks did start 5 years ago apparently, combined with everything else I just listed and how little merit it has to begin with just on the basis of it being a 4chan leak by default, pretty safe to say they just picked a bunch of names being at least moderately discussed (or at least more than you'd expect them to) from the time and plastered them in a 4chan list

 

[StarLight42]

I remember reading his posts about the presentation, and he made it seem that he was solid about Chief getting costumed. Then he flipped and flopped all the way to the bank and now we should trust him because he repeated what someone else that was infinitely more credible said? And the reason is because ResetEra hasn't banned him so something it must be true?

Wow, ResetERa really IS this faux elitist forum site after all, huh?

Also guys, I think we found the new Hitagi. Now I'm just waiting for them to actually have more info even when they said the didn't and suddenly Rayas from Grand Summoners is coming to Smash.

People in Smash speculation jump around from potential leaker to potential leaker so much it's like I'm watching a game of Frogger being played live.

Everything. He. Said. Aside. From. Sora. Not. Being. In. Was. Speculation.

Come on man, quit being deliberately ignorant and hard to deal with.

I've already explained like three times why he didn't get banned yet you read like a single word of every one of my posts before hastily typing up an inconsiderate reply.

 

[ForsakenM]

Everything. He. Said. Aside. From. Sora. Not. Being. In. Was. Speculation.

Come on man, quit being deliberately ignorant and hard to deal with.

I've already explained like three times why he didn't get banned yet you read like a single word of every one of my posts before hastily typing up an inconsiderate reply.

Oh no, I read all of both posts each time.

If I make a post that says that Lloyd is getting costumed hours before a presentation and then within those hours I flip and flop on that, it doesn't matter whether I said it was speculation or not: anything I say after that is immediately questionable and not credible, especially so if Lloyd doesn't get costumed in that presentation.

So, it doesn't matter if I come back later and say 'You know what, screw it: Hayabusa is in this pass! There, I said it, and that is all I can say and this is totally true and from my sources (which btw is the new way of saying 'My uncle works at Nintendo')' without providing actually proof like documents or a solid image or a gameplay video or SOMETHING. Meanwhile, if someone like Jeff Grubb or Kelios came out and said 'Yeah, Hayabusa is coming guys' months before I ever said this and clarified just HOURS before I said this, it makes it look like mere piggybacking off someone else who actually matters in the leaker community regardless if I'm legit or not.

ALSO also, if I say I have no more information/can't say more, but then respond and say confidently that the next character is coming before the Genovember tournament, that immediately goes against what I just claimed that I both know nothing else and/or cannot say anymore unless I SPECIFICALLY say it's speculation like Fatmanonice does, and the only reason it works for Fatman is because he ALWAYS talks in terms of speculation, where as this guy never made it clear before and NOW claims to be leaking real info.

This reeks of 4chan piggybacking on another forum and even if he is somehow credible he hasn't said anything we don't already know from infinitely more credible sources.

EDIT: Oh yeah, that's right: Mondo apparently has no prior history to back up any credibility, yet he magically shows up on the radar now and all he has is stuff we already know? Yeah, I'm not interested in what this guy has to say.

 

[StarLight42]

Oh no, I read all of both posts each time.

If I make a post that says that Lloyd is getting costumed hours before a presentation and then within those hours I flip and flop on that, it doesn't matter whether I said it was speculation or not: anything I say after that is immediately questionable and not credible, especially so if Lloyd doesn't get costumed in that presentation.

So, it doesn't matter if I come back later and say 'You know what, screw it: Hayabusa is in this pass! There, I said it, and that is all I can say and this is totally true and from my sources (which btw is the new way of saying 'My uncle works at Nintendo')' without providing actually proof like documents or a solid image or a gameplay video or SOMETHING. Meanwhile, if someone like Jeff Grubb or Kelios came out and said 'Yeah, Hayabusa is coming guys' months before I ever said this and clarified just HOURS before I said this, it makes it look like mere piggybacking off someone else who actually matters in the leaker community regardless if I'm legit or not.

ALSO also, if I say I have no more information/can't say more, but then respond and say confidently that the next character is coming before the Genovember tournament, that immediately goes against what I just claimed that I both know nothing else and/or cannot say anymore unless I SPECIFICALLY say it's speculation like Fatmanonice does, and the only reason it works for Fatman is because he ALWAYS talks in terms of speculation, where as this guy never made it clear before and NOW claims to be leaking real info.

This reeks of 4chan piggybacking on another forum and even if he is somehow credible he hasn't said anything we don't already know from infinitely more credible sources.

EDIT: Oh yeah, that's right: Mondo apparently has no prior history to back up any credibility, yet he magically shows up on the radar now and all he has is stuff we already know? Yeah, I'm not interested in what this guy has to say.

That's not my point at all. I'm not saying this guy is credible nor why you should suddenly believe him. I'm explaining why he didn't get banned, and the reason is simple, he didn't claim to have insider information for any of his predictions aside from Sora not being in, and his post makes that quite clear.

He wasn't "vetted" for his info on anything related to Mii Costumes. He did not claim to know anything on that front.

 

[PatPrime]

Seeing these kind of replies REALLY shows why people like Kelios stop trying to say things and get sick of Smash and Nintendo fans. It's kind of absurd. Whenever I read some kind of rumor or possible insider information, I look at it and sometimes keep it in the back of my mind. If that info is real, cool. If not, oh well. I don't see the point in getting really aggressive towards these people unless there is good reason like the whole deal with Sabi.

 

[Mr. Peepee]

Is there anything not going in Geno’s favor? Like stuff that could potentially result in him not joining?

 

[ForsakenM]

That's not my point at all. I'm not saying this guy is credible nor why you should suddenly believe him. I'm explaining why he didn't get banned, and the reason is simple, he didn't claim to have insider information for any of his predictions aside from Sora not being in, and his post makes that quite clear.

He wasn't "vetted" for his info on anything related to Mii Costumes. He did not claim to know anything on that front.

Ok, I understand where your posts are coming from now.

I thought this was a post about proving why we should be doing the Reggie watch tap while waiting for Mondo to post again. Had I understood it was a mere explanation on why he's still not banned I likely wouldn't have responded at all as I already knew about the entire Mondo situation.

My bad, context in text is something I always stuck at, welcome to Berg City.

 

[Mizzle]

One of those weird nights where I'm randomly awake but he's referring to this:

[SPOILER ALERT] - The Sevens Squares. - A Square-Enix general support threads.

SPOILER WARNING: IF YOU DON'T WANT THE RISKS TO GET SPOILED ABOUT POTENTIAL LEAK LEAVE THE THREAD! Now that the warning here, let's get serious. I decided to make this thread, a general support and discussion place, about the potential Square-Enix characters and to discuss their inclusion...

smashboards.com

In the summer of 2018, Vergeben somehow got his hands on an official Square Enix document that highlighted the seven characters that Square Enix was most interested in implementing into Smash Bros: Luminary, Erdrick, Slime, Crono, Sephiroth, Sora, and Geno. Vergeben trusted this information to a variety of people within his circle, including Sabi. Being the Hot Topic Keebler Elf that he is, Sabi of course betrayed Vergeben's trust and leaked the thing to the internet. The fallout was pretty bad according to a number of testimonials. Verge and a good number of people in Verge's circle lost most of their sources and supposedly a number of people were even fired over it. A user by the name of Krono took the fall for the situation, noting that "he saw himself as a nobody" and didn't want the budding reputations of Verge and Sabi to be damaged. It wouldn't be made public, however, for over a year that it was Sabi who was responsible for the leak thanks to an exposee on Sabi's numerous scandals written by a user named Grapevine. Out of fear of legal repercussions (because it contained personal information of several very prominent insiders), this exposee was quickly taken off Twitter and trusted to a handful of people, myself included.

You literally just said that they were the seven characters Square Enix was interested in implementing into Smash. It never said that these were the ones Nintendo had offered them. The two can be- and most likely were- independent of each other. This leads me to some theory-crafting.

Spoiler: Theory-Crafting

I don't believe the "list leak" that has been going around, but let's compare the two for fun.

Seven Squares: Luminary, Erdrick, Slime, Crono, Sephiroth, Sora, Geno

Nintendo's List: Luminary, Erdrick, Crono, Sephiroth, Terra, Sora, Lara Croft

As you can tell, I've crossed off the ones that are already in Smash as well as Sora, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that Nintendo wanted Kingdom Hearts- Square Enix's third largest series and one with a strong history to Nintendo- in Smash, but the negotiations didn't go well. That leaves us with only Crono and Sephiroth for characters left on both lists.

Even if the "list leak" is fake, it wouldn't surprise me if Geno wasn't even considered by Nintendo. We know that from around the development of Paper Mario: Sticker Star that someone cough Miyamoto cough founded a "Mario IP Purity Team" to make sure that the characters in new Mario games "fit" the universe. Essentially, new characters can only be around for one game and existing species can't be heavily modified. Geno does not fit these new rules for the series, so Geno would never be chosen by Nintendo. What's strange is that the Mii Costume for 4 (released in December of 2015) apparently met the requirements to be included, as the "purity team" would have been established by then. So even if Geno still doesn't end up as a full character, his costume is still likely going to return.

So, since the Seven Squares list has a lot of validity to it, Sora was likely the next in line to be negotiated for. It fell through, leaving Crono, Sephiroth, and Geno. And here's were we go into theory-crafting mode.

*Square Enix was the first company approached for DLC. In fact, discussions for the DLC likely started in base game. All of the characters in the Seven Squares list were at the very least discussed at some point. For FP1, Sakurai had decided to include the Heroes as one slot and give a Mii Hat to Slime. FP2 may have already been in consideration at this point, and Sora was discussed for a potential second character. Sakurai also kept in mind that Square Enix was interested in making Geno a full-fledged fighter, hence why the Geno costume was held back from being included in FP1.

*FP2 was greenlit around E3 2019, and Square Enix was once again the first company approached for DLC discussions.

*Serious negotiations for Sora begun, and they fell through. Despite this, Square Enix was still obviously interested in having a second DLC character, and Sakurai had shifted his attention to Geno- due to his personal interest in the character and high fan demand- and Crono- the backup if Nintendo still shot down Geno. I'm excluding Sephiroth as I think Sakurai would rather represent another game than include a second FF7 character.

tl;dr:
*Nintendo does not want Geno in the game because of the new rules for the Mario IP. However, Sakurai and Square Enix are still interested in the character.

*FP1 was always meant to be the Heroes, Sora was considered for the future character and Geno was held back as a Mii Costume just in case.

*FP2 was greenlit; Sakurai approached Square Enix about including Sora, but negotiations fell through due to Disney; Geno and Crono were then the next in line.

So basically, Geno's fate hangs on a thread because of Nintendo and their strict rules for the Mario IP. To me, it seems like the Square Enix rep for FP2 is either Geno with a Crono costume or Crono with a Geno costume. If Geno gets in, know that it was a request from Sakurai and Square Enix, so you all better thank them for having interest in the character, because Nintendo absolutely did not want it to happen.

 

[Theguy123]

So have any of you guys seen this video by Slackerz covering this 4chan leak claiming to know the list of characters Nintendo gave to Sakurai to choose from for the DLC? Interesting thing about this leak is that it was posted in May of 2019 and it has Joker, Erdrick, Banjo, Terry, Byleth, and Steve on it as well as a couple of other dozens of names. Suspicious thing about the leak is that Min Min/Arms character nor Geno was on the list which makes me write this off as fake. But it is to be expected from 4chan.

something that bothers me about this and leans me towards fake is the sora part. We potentially have a new person recently saying sora was negotiated for but the price was too much.

If this is true then why is sora on the list of characters that Sakurai was able to pick from. Being on the list implies that Nintendo had already negotiated terms with companies for those characters and had them ready for if sakurai chose certain ones of there. It wouldn’t make sense for sora being on the list.

also there’s obviously no min min on there which also goes in favour of fake

 

[Joshdabozz]

Yo im new here, I have lurked around this for years, not often but I have lurked. Geno is my most wanted character ever, right in front of Sora and Shantae. I do hope Geno will make it.

I dislike leaks in general. Only 5% of leakers are actually being truthful, and the rest of the 95% is complete bs. The only thing they do good is that they give people something to talk about when there is nothing at all to discuss. And it gets even worse when people start justifying arbitrary leaks. Say someone predicts Mario Kart 9 comes out in November, but it actually comes out in January. "Well they were off because you know COVID and maybe their source didn't get a concrete date and maybe"

Right now, is there any actual leakers worth giving a damn about? As in, they have a legitimate track record of getting things accurate and truthful? Or are the biggest names in the scene right now just hitting the mark every now and then but aren't always completely accurate? I hate being riddled with "well they were wrong because of x y and z but we should still listen because blah blah blah."

I miss when leakers said something is going to happen and it'll happen at this date and then it happened. Now it's a game of moving goal posts and listening to a room of voices when the actual leakers with credibility are being drowned out. (Well, I guess it was always that way, but maybe recency bias is making me think it's worse nowadays). I want the truth!

There is a Leaker with a 100% correct Track record, and they usually post things within a week of it being revealed officially. the leaker is u/PracticalBrush12 on reddit. They have a Track Record with Smash and other games. They leaked Steve an hour before he was revealed.

 

[AugustusB]

Welcome to the Geno Thread J Joshdabozz !

Your official Geno hat should be arriving soon.

 

[CopperKoopa]

Someone is going to hate on me for posting this here, but ever since the Bomberman costume I've been thinking about just how much stuff we still don't have in Smash. If you sort of subjectively look at what we've gotten for 3rd party content, it's a lot of nostalgiabait, Japanese-centric, legacy and watershed gaming icons and franchises that get included -- basically anything that gets a lengthy article on Hardcore Gaming 101. With Smash being called a celebration of gaming history by Sakurai himself, it's shocking some of these heavy hitter IPs are still not repped in Smash even with Spirits, Costumes or Music. Not saying any of these are definites or even likely for DLC, but some notable exceptions that jump out at me right now:

• Space Invaders
• Frogger
• Bubble Bobble
• Golden Axe
• Alex Kidd
• Ninja Gaiden
• Double Dragon
• Contra
• Ghosts 'n Goblins
• Harvest Moon (Story of Seasons)
• All the old Data East properties (Joe & Mac / Caveman Ninja, Magical Drop, Karnov, BurgerTime)
• Bonk / PC Genjin
• Lode Runner
• Adventure Island
• Wonder Boy / Monster World
• Milon
• Momotaru Densetsu
• Ninja Jajamaru-kun
• Shin Megami Tensei (no, Persona doesn't count)
• Classic Final Fantasy (Cloud feels like such a screwjob here)

Also there's stuff like all the IPs that deserve more content than just a Costume, AT or Spirit, such as Tekken, Bomberman, or Mystical Ninja.

More "modern" IPs, like Kingdom Hearts, Dark Souls or Danganropa, have different parameters to be chosen off of. They have to basically run off their popularity and "will it last?" ability. It's evident the more modern 3rd party IPs in Smash (Persona, Bayo, etc.) are ones that will likely be viewed as classics given enough time.

And then if we talk Western IPs, it gets a little murkier because it's clear they are not selecting just any popular Western IP, but rather ones that have hit an international level of success and have a multi-generational connection to Nintendo. So I don't think IPs like Mortal Kombat, Earthworm Jim or even Spyro really fit here, because they are popular strictly in just the West or don't have these strong ties to Nintendo that's lasted several generations. There are definitely exceptions here: IPs that are Japan-only are fair game, because Nintendo caters to a Japanese audience first and foremost. However, I think with Western IPs we're really limited to just the heaviest of hitters that broke international success (Minecraft) or the most "Nintendo" of non-Nintendo IPs (Banjo). That leaves us with IPs like Crash, Doom, and I guess even Halo or Overwatch. But it's a not very long list. We're not going to get, say, Gauntlet or TF2 in Smash, and people who think we will are only kidding themselves. I'll also add other Eastern IPs, like League of Legends, to that list of "not going to happen anytime soon."

To tie this back to Geno, when you look at the whole scope of Nintendo over the years, Geno hails from one of the major watershed games of their past. It's not unreasonable to think he's likely but I'm begrudgingly and partially expecting him to NOT appear outside his returning costume considering how much content from other IPs we still don't have catalogued in Smash yet.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The whole Sora topic irks me to no end. Here's me ranting about it in January:

Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

Oh dear, this is torture at this point. I’ve just been silently watching you guys in this thread trying to get all happy about Geno in Smash for awhile now. But this days worth of posts has just been painful. It’s just the same arguments posted over and over in a loop, and every time someone in...

smashboards.com

OH LOOK! SUDA was being 100% honest about Travis and has been since 2018. Imagine that... It's why I usually steer clear of the Doom Guy topic too because the literal developers of DOOM have cast hard doubt on it multiple times, just like Travis.

Here I am talking about how insiders were already counting out Sora as early as 2018 based on what they had heard:

Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

You could be honest with me and tell me that these DLC picks are going to be geared more towards mainstream popularity than legacy, since Persona owes it's entire existence to Megami Tensei. And also that Atlus is currently milking the Persona 5 brand again just like P4. I can't argue with that

smashboards.com

And here's me talking about Sora a month ago when Nomura himself came out and said that there were no long term plans for Nintendo and Kingdom Hearts:

Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

Remember when Capcom ripped the band aid mostly off and announced 4 of the 5 DLC coming to Street Fighter V? Wouldn't it be nice if Nintendo did that too? I'd split the difference in a different timeline: Reveal the first three up front and make the back half a mystery surprise

smashboards.com

-The literal brand manager of Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts said no.

-Nomura himself said he was more interested in pushing his other creations on Nintendo platforms literally a month ago.

-Multiple insiders since 2018 have said it didn't look good but Nintendo at least probably tried.

This is all nothing new. There's been no new developments. It's not like Geno where the evidence has snowballed over two years. Sora's story has remained essentially the same since 2018. If it took 5 years to implement Steve and Hashimoto gave Sora a hard no in the summer of 2019, that's GG. No, they're not likely to "try again", especially if Season 2 was greenlit around E3 2019 according to Imran Khan. Nintendo tried. Disney said no. We keep hearing this story over and over again and people refuse to believe it. Again, in light of the Travis Mii costume, IT'S BEST TO TAKE DEVELOPERS AT THEIR WORD and enough with the "haha, they're kidding" narrative when its pretty clear they're not.

 

[domriver]

Good morning fellow Geno people.
Unsure if this is the correct way to look at it but to me it makes a bit of clear sense.
Lets just say Geno was never meant to be in Ultimate as a playable fighter. If that was really the case. During base game presentations you would think Sakurai would have included Geno costume from then. But didn't. Which raises the question whats the hold up? In my opinion it could have been contract negotiations were not finalized regarding Square Content. When E3 2019 happened and i saw Hero i was like Geno's costume will be here. But they STILL did not show it off. One can almost argue the same regarding other Mii Costumes. Like the Monster Hunter and Lloyd and Travis. We are in Season 2 of this pass well far into this DLC phase to question legitimately what is the hold up with the Geno costume? We are at FP 8 with Just 3 possible upgrades for previous Mii Costumes. Monster Hunter? Lloyd? Geno? Monster Hunter I really don't know some claim no character. Then again whats the hold up with hold for these costumes? My guess? Maybe new costumes or even a new character from the New Monster Hunter games for this year? Maybe, Maybe not but i do think it has something to do with it. Lloyd? Negotiations for upgrade to new character? Or someone else within that company? Same goes for Geno.
Basically IF there was ZERO dealings with these companies. Then Lloyd and Geno would have been longgg agoo.
What you guys think?

 

[CopperKoopa]

So have any of you guys seen this video by Slackerz covering this 4chan leak claiming to know the list of characters Nintendo gave to Sakurai to choose from for the DLC? Interesting thing about this leak is that it was posted in May of 2019 and it has Joker, Erdrick, Banjo, Terry, Byleth, and Steve on it as well as a couple of other dozens of names. Suspicious thing about the leak is that Min Min/Arms character nor Geno was on the list which makes me write this off as fake. But it is to be expected from 4chan.

I saw that when it was 1st posted and still live, so it isn't an edit of a screenshot before anyone jumps in to say that. Still, I don't believe it.

You literally just said that they were the seven characters Square Enix was interested in implementing into Smash. It never said that these were the ones Nintendo had offered them. The two can be- and most likely were- independent of each other. This leads me to some theory-crafting.

Spoiler: Theory-Crafting

I don't believe the "list leak" that has been going around, but let's compare the two for fun.



As you can tell, I've crossed off the ones that are already in Smash as well as Sora, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that Nintendo wanted Kingdom Hearts- Square Enix's third largest series and one with a strong history to Nintendo- in Smash, but the negotiations didn't go well. That leaves us with only Crono and Sephiroth for characters left on both lists.

Even if the "list leak" is fake, it wouldn't surprise me if Geno wasn't even considered by Nintendo. We know that from around the development of Paper Mario: Sticker Star that someone cough Miyamoto cough founded a "Mario IP Purity Team" to make sure that the characters in new Mario games "fit" the universe. Essentially, new characters can only be around for one game and existing species can't be heavily modified. Geno does not fit these new rules for the series, so Geno would never be chosen by Nintendo. What's strange is that the Mii Costume for 4 (released in December of 2015) apparently met the requirements to be included, as the "purity team" would have been established by then. So even if Geno still doesn't end up as a full character, his costume is still likely going to return.

So, since the Seven Squares list has a lot of validity to it, Sora was likely the next in line to be negotiated for. It fell through, leaving Crono, Sephiroth, and Geno. And here's were we go into theory-crafting mode.

*Square Enix was the first company approached for DLC. In fact, discussions for the DLC likely started in base game. All of the characters in the Seven Squares list were at the very least discussed at some point. For FP1, Sakurai had decided to include the Heroes as one slot and give a Mii Hat to Slime. FP2 may have already been in consideration at this point, and Sora was discussed for a potential second character. Sakurai also kept in mind that Square Enix was interested in making Geno a full-fledged fighter, hence why the Geno costume was held back from being included in FP1.

*FP2 was greenlit around E3 2019, and Square Enix was once again the first company approached for DLC discussions.

*Serious negotiations for Sora begun, and they fell through. Despite this, Square Enix was still obviously interested in having a second DLC character, and Sakurai had shifted his attention to Geno- due to his personal interest in the character and high fan demand- and Crono- the backup if Nintendo still shot down Geno. I'm excluding Sephiroth as I think Sakurai would rather represent another game than include a second FF7 character.

tl;dr:
*Nintendo does not want Geno in the game because of the new rules for the Mario IP. However, Sakurai and Square Enix are still interested in the character.

*FP1 was always meant to be the Heroes, Sora was considered for the future character and Geno was held back as a Mii Costume just in case.

*FP2 was greenlit; Sakurai approached Square Enix about including Sora, but negotiations fell through due to Disney; Geno and Crono were then the next in line.

So basically, Geno's fate hangs on a thread because of Nintendo and their strict rules for the Mario IP. To me, it seems like the Square Enix rep for FP2 is either Geno with a Crono costume or Crono with a Geno costume. If Geno gets in, know that it was a request from Sakurai and Square Enix, so you all better thank them for having interest in the character, because Nintendo absolutely did not want it to happen.

I'm a nihilist too, but if Nintendo was hyper concerned about how the Mario IP was presented in Smash they would have given Bowser and Donkey Kong voices or made sure Wario was never in the game

 

[Theguy123]

You literally just said that they were the seven characters Square Enix was interested in implementing into Smash. It never said that these were the ones Nintendo had offered them. The two can be- and most likely were- independent of each other. This leads me to some theory-crafting.

Spoiler: Theory-Crafting

I don't believe the "list leak" that has been going around, but let's compare the two for fun.



As you can tell, I've crossed off the ones that are already in Smash as well as Sora, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that Nintendo wanted Kingdom Hearts- Square Enix's third largest series and one with a strong history to Nintendo- in Smash, but the negotiations didn't go well. That leaves us with only Crono and Sephiroth for characters left on both lists.

Even if the "list leak" is fake, it wouldn't surprise me if Geno wasn't even considered by Nintendo. We know that from around the development of Paper Mario: Sticker Star that someone cough Miyamoto cough founded a "Mario IP Purity Team" to make sure that the characters in new Mario games "fit" the universe. Essentially, new characters can only be around for one game and existing species can't be heavily modified. Geno does not fit these new rules for the series, so Geno would never be chosen by Nintendo. What's strange is that the Mii Costume for 4 (released in December of 2015) apparently met the requirements to be included, as the "purity team" would have been established by then. So even if Geno still doesn't end up as a full character, his costume is still likely going to return.

So, since the Seven Squares list has a lot of validity to it, Sora was likely the next in line to be negotiated for. It fell through, leaving Crono, Sephiroth, and Geno. And here's were we go into theory-crafting mode.

*Square Enix was the first company approached for DLC. In fact, discussions for the DLC likely started in base game. All of the characters in the Seven Squares list were at the very least discussed at some point. For FP1, Sakurai had decided to include the Heroes as one slot and give a Mii Hat to Slime. FP2 may have already been in consideration at this point, and Sora was discussed for a potential second character. Sakurai also kept in mind that Square Enix was interested in making Geno a full-fledged fighter, hence why the Geno costume was held back from being included in FP1.

*FP2 was greenlit around E3 2019, and Square Enix was once again the first company approached for DLC discussions.

*Serious negotiations for Sora begun, and they fell through. Despite this, Square Enix was still obviously interested in having a second DLC character, and Sakurai had shifted his attention to Geno- due to his personal interest in the character and high fan demand- and Crono- the backup if Nintendo still shot down Geno. I'm excluding Sephiroth as I think Sakurai would rather represent another game than include a second FF7 character.

tl;dr:
*Nintendo does not want Geno in the game because of the new rules for the Mario IP. However, Sakurai and Square Enix are still interested in the character.

*FP1 was always meant to be the Heroes, Sora was considered for the future character and Geno was held back as a Mii Costume just in case.

*FP2 was greenlit; Sakurai approached Square Enix about including Sora, but negotiations fell through due to Disney; Geno and Crono were then the next in line.

So basically, Geno's fate hangs on a thread because of Nintendo and their strict rules for the Mario IP. To me, it seems like the Square Enix rep for FP2 is either Geno with a Crono costume or Crono with a Geno costume. If Geno gets in, know that it was a request from Sakurai and Square Enix, so you all better thank them for having interest in the character, because Nintendo absolutely did not want it to happen.

Nintendo’s strict rules wouldn’t get int the way. Smash is completely different to a spin-off mario series. Sakurai is in charge which is one of the Main reasons and sakurai and Nintendo will put anyone in as long as it makes them money.

also the restrictions by miyamoto was made for the paper mario series and nothing else. Main mario still uses creative and new enemies, characters etc and so did the mario and Luigi RPG series when it was alive. Geno is basically cannon to the mario and Luigi series since he appears as a cameo in superstar saga.

if you wanna stretch things quite far as well you could mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyybeeeeeee get away with saying mario RPG could be considered mainline mario.

I say this because it’s connected to the mario and Luigi series which is connected to the yoshi series (there’s some references in yoshi crafted world) and then the yoshi series is connected to mainline mario because poochi appears in odyssey.

 

[AdamBel731]

Good morning fellow Geno people.
Unsure if this is the correct way to look at it but to me it makes a bit of clear sense.
Lets just say Geno was never meant to be in Ultimate as a playable fighter. If that was really the case. During base game presentations you would think Sakurai would have included Geno costume from then. But didn't. Which raises the question whats the hold up? In my opinion it could have been contract negotiations were not finalized regarding Square Content. When E3 2019 happened and i saw Hero i was like Geno's costume will be here. But they STILL did not show it off. One can almost argue the same regarding other Mii Costumes. Like the Monster Hunter and Lloyd and Travis. We are in Season 2 of this pass well far into this DLC phase to question legitimately what is the hold up with the Geno costume? We are at FP 8 with Just 3 possible upgrades for previous Mii Costumes. Monster Hunter? Lloyd? Geno? Monster Hunter I really don't know some claim no character. Then again whats the hold up with hold for these costumes? My guess? Maybe new costumes or even a new character from the New Monster Hunter games for this year? Maybe, Maybe not but i do think it has something to do with it. Lloyd? Negotiations for upgrade to new character? Or someone else within that company? Same goes for Geno.
Basically IF there was ZERO dealings with these companies. Then Lloyd and Geno would have been longgg agoo.
What you guys think?

I believe the ongoing theory in the Geno thread is that it is pretty sus that the Geno Mii costume didn't return in the base game, especially since Nintendo already got the rights to Super Mario RPG (as evident by the Geno and Mallow Spirits). Sakurai is obviously aware of Geno's popularity since the man literally said he was aware of it after the Geno Mii costume was revealed. The Geno Mii costume is also the only one to have a splash screen, which just solidifies that the Mii costume was seen as something special by the developers. Why would they remove the Mii costume if Geno already had a Spirit and an online icon of himself? ...unless Square Enix were to get some sort of DLC soon.

It was common knowledge that Square Enix was getting DLC at some point. At first Geno seemed likely due to what I pointed out above, but eventually Dragon Quest was rumored to high heaven and it was inevitable a Dragon Quest character was coming. Unfortunately for most Geno fans, they sort of just assumed that's where the Mii costume was showing up and begun to pack up their bags.

Fast forward to the end of Hero's Sakurai Presents and... no Geno (or Chocobo) Mii costume? ...weird. People then deduced that Hero weirdly came with 2 less Mii costumes than the average and people became sus. Square Enix typically hasn't added content into Smash unless they're flying solo. There is always the possibility Geno's Mii costume could be added alongside someone not from Square Enix, but that would be going against some past precedents. I mean... I guess they're fan rules? Maybe? But it just doesn't seem likely that Square Enix and Nintendo would get rid of one of the most popular Mii costumes, not add him with a Square Enix character, and then randomly add it back with like, idk, Ryu Hayabusa or something.

Lloyd I think is up in the air since Heihachi and Gil were added in one at a time with no Bandai Namco character. But Lloyd is an actual popular Smash request and Sakurai knows this so... it would be pretty harsh to save him (as well as Geno) this late in DLC speculation. It isn't out of the realm of possibility, as my boy Shadow was saved until the November Smash Direct (as well as Isaac and Skull Kid). Granted, Sakurai has never publicly acknowledged any of those aforementioned characters' popularity, whereas Sakurai HAS for Geno and Lloyd. It would be actually insensitive to hold those Mii costumes back since Sakurai KNOWS of those characters' popularity (unless Sakurai had no say in the matter).

As an aside, Monster Hunter isn't coming. The developers don't like the hunters fighting, and the only reason they were in Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite is because that game had little to no oversight. I am 100% fine with a Monster Hunter, as the series is massive, but people need to realize that the Smash developers already decided how to represent the franchise, so I doubt they are going to be adding playable characters from the series anytime soon. As such, I'm unsure as to why the costumes weren't in the base game... maybe a Capcom character as DLC?

Basically, right now Geno and Lloyd Irving are in pretty good standings.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

You literally just said that they were the seven characters Square Enix was interested in implementing into Smash. It never said that these were the ones Nintendo had offered them. The two can be- and most likely were- independent of each other. This leads me to some theory-crafting.

Spoiler: Theory-Crafting

I don't believe the "list leak" that has been going around, but let's compare the two for fun.



As you can tell, I've crossed off the ones that are already in Smash as well as Sora, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that Nintendo wanted Kingdom Hearts- Square Enix's third largest series and one with a strong history to Nintendo- in Smash, but the negotiations didn't go well. That leaves us with only Crono and Sephiroth for characters left on both lists.

Even if the "list leak" is fake, it wouldn't surprise me if Geno wasn't even considered by Nintendo. We know that from around the development of Paper Mario: Sticker Star that someone cough Miyamoto cough founded a "Mario IP Purity Team" to make sure that the characters in new Mario games "fit" the universe. Essentially, new characters can only be around for one game and existing species can't be heavily modified. Geno does not fit these new rules for the series, so Geno would never be chosen by Nintendo. What's strange is that the Mii Costume for 4 (released in December of 2015) apparently met the requirements to be included, as the "purity team" would have been established by then. So even if Geno still doesn't end up as a full character, his costume is still likely going to return.

So, since the Seven Squares list has a lot of validity to it, Sora was likely the next in line to be negotiated for. It fell through, leaving Crono, Sephiroth, and Geno. And here's were we go into theory-crafting mode.

*Square Enix was the first company approached for DLC. In fact, discussions for the DLC likely started in base game. All of the characters in the Seven Squares list were at the very least discussed at some point. For FP1, Sakurai had decided to include the Heroes as one slot and give a Mii Hat to Slime. FP2 may have already been in consideration at this point, and Sora was discussed for a potential second character. Sakurai also kept in mind that Square Enix was interested in making Geno a full-fledged fighter, hence why the Geno costume was held back from being included in FP1.

*FP2 was greenlit around E3 2019, and Square Enix was once again the first company approached for DLC discussions.

*Serious negotiations for Sora begun, and they fell through. Despite this, Square Enix was still obviously interested in having a second DLC character, and Sakurai had shifted his attention to Geno- due to his personal interest in the character and high fan demand- and Crono- the backup if Nintendo still shot down Geno. I'm excluding Sephiroth as I think Sakurai would rather represent another game than include a second FF7 character.

tl;dr:
*Nintendo does not want Geno in the game because of the new rules for the Mario IP. However, Sakurai and Square Enix are still interested in the character.

*FP1 was always meant to be the Heroes, Sora was considered for the future character and Geno was held back as a Mii Costume just in case.

*FP2 was greenlit; Sakurai approached Square Enix about including Sora, but negotiations fell through due to Disney; Geno and Crono were then the next in line.

So basically, Geno's fate hangs on a thread because of Nintendo and their strict rules for the Mario IP. To me, it seems like the Square Enix rep for FP2 is either Geno with a Crono costume or Crono with a Geno costume. If Geno gets in, know that it was a request from Sakurai and Square Enix, so you all better thank them for having interest in the character, because Nintendo absolutely did not want it to happen.

According to interviews, Miyamoto is actually way more lax about the Mario IP nowadays, hence why we have games like Super Mario Odyssey and Luigi's Mansion 3. The restriction to characters in Paper Mario isn't him saying those kind of characters aren't allowed, it's the dev team arbitrarily limiting themselves for no discernible reason.

Even then, Smash has always worked outside of Nintendo's regular rules, so even if this was something that could stand in Geno's way, there have been far bigger obstacles characters have overcome.

 

[CopperKoopa]

also the restrictions by miyamoto was made for the paper mario series and nothing else. Main mario still uses creative and new enemies, characters etc and so did the mario and Luigi RPG series when it was alive. Geno is basically cannon to the mario and Luigi series since he appears as a cameo in superstar saga.

Not to cut you off at the knees here because I totally agree with you, but it has definitely expanded beyond just Paper Mario. The Mario merchandising is completely sterile NSMB level stuff, and Mario spinoff games do tread carefully, no longer introducing new characters of their own or dipping into side characters from the RPG titles. The appearance of all the characters is consistent across the board, as is the same with their personas and abilities. It even bleeds into Smash, as nearly all the Mario content in Smash Bros. is curated to come from that same "on brand" NSMB level of stuff. The only exceptions to this are legacy content from 64, Melee and Brawl. Otherwise, anything new added to 4 and Ultimate completely rests within the mandate. And since Donkey Kong, Wario and Yoshi are increasingly treated as "separate brands" (they aren't even playable in the upcoming Mario-themed tournament), they don't count as part of the mandate and can therefore include stuff that isn't necessarily part of the core Mario IP as Nintendo wants to sell it. It's also why it's very rare we see characters like K. Rool or Ashley even get nods in Mario games, despite being part of its EU.

And before someone else says it, Mario Odyssey can "break the mandate" because the whole pitch is that Mario is globetrotting. So you can have new enemies, characters and environments. Similar to how Mario can fight a stapler in Origami King or collect Beans instead of Mushrooms in some of the Mario & Luigi games: they don't take place in the Mario universe proper, and those characters are meant to be "one-off" appearances. Some characters do break out of that, like Pauline, but she was also a character created well before Odyssey came into existence and Odyssey in an established mainline game so it can invent new content for the franchise. But I think the days of seeing bizarre crap like a playable Pianta, a new "plumber" being introduced (like Waluigi), or even experimental takes on how the Mario universe looks or behaves are far behind us. Which is why it's so important Geno makes it into Smash this go around. It would not only please us fans, but basically gives a big middle finger to that mandate.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I feel like Geno and Lloyd surviving this long is definitely not a coincidence. 7 packs over a year and a half and the axe hasn't fallen. Both have been wanted since Brawl, neither were made into assist trophies, Sakurai spoke highly about both of them, upgrades are confirmed via Min Min, and Sakurai made it a point for both of them to be the only third party characters of their respective waves in Smash 4 with Geno even getting a splash screen. You can blow off everything else going for them from the last two years to your own peril but those points you can't steer around.

(Also, huge points in Lloyd's favor that people often blow off: third best selling Namco series, only major Namco series launched on a Nintendo console, and Tales of Symphonia was the first game in the series to sell in all regions as a GameCube exclusive. )

 

[CopperKoopa]

There was a pretty active Geno thread on 4chan early this morning where they dumped on the fanbase again, but quite a number of defenders came forward. Brought a smile to my face because I think his support is starting to grow again.

 

[Fatmanonice]

M Mizzle Pretty sure Smash is a whole different beast. I mean... Mario fights against people with literal guns. Smash by definition is the ultimate **** you to convention. You can have Ridley with bunny ears and Ganondorf literally scream fire from eating spicy curry, stuff that would never happen in canon in a million years. The fact that Mario can even fight a mercenary that's signature move is breaking people's necks, a thief that's finishing move is slitting someone's throat, and a demon summoning sadistic witch who literally fights naked except high heels (canonically her clothes are her hair) with guns and games heavily imply she gets sexual gratification from killing angels are kind of case in point that the rules they apply in the Mario series definitely don't apply here.

 

[Theguy123]

Not to cut you off at the knees here because I totally agree with you, but it has definitely expanded beyond just Paper Mario. The Mario merchandising is completely sterile NSMB level stuff, and Mario spinoff games do tread carefully, no longer introducing new characters of their own or dipping into side characters from the RPG titles. The appearance of all the characters is consistent across the board, as is the same with their personas and abilities. It even bleeds into Smash, as nearly all the Mario content in Smash Bros. is curated to come from that same "on brand" NSMB level of stuff. The only exceptions to this are legacy content from 64, Melee and Brawl. Otherwise, anything new added to 4 and Ultimate completely rests within the mandate. And since Donkey Kong, Wario and Yoshi are increasingly treated as "separate brands" (they aren't even playable in the upcoming Mario-themed tournament), they don't count as part of the mandate and can therefore include stuff that isn't necessarily part of the core Mario IP as Nintendo wants to sell it. It's also why it's very rare we see characters like K. Rool or Ashley even get nods in Mario games, despite being part of its EU.

And before someone else says it, Mario Odyssey can "break the mandate" because the whole pitch is that Mario is globetrotting. So you can have new enemies, characters and environments. Similar to how Mario can fight a stapler in Origami King or collect Beans instead of Mushrooms in some of the Mario & Luigi games: they don't take place in the Mario universe proper, and those characters are meant to be "one-off" appearances. Some characters do break out of that, like Pauline, but she was also a character created well before Odyssey came into existence and Odyssey in an established mainline game so it can invent new content for the franchise. But I think the days of seeing bizarre crap like a playable Pianta, a new "plumber" being introduced (like Waluigi), or even experimental takes on how the Mario universe looks or behaves are far behind us. Which is why it's so important Geno makes it into Smash this go around. It would not only please us fans, but basically gives a big middle finger to that mandate.

i agree with about 95% of that. The only thing on this that I didn’t agree with is the characters making 1 off appearances thing. Fawful appears multiple times throughout the mario and Luigi series and multiple characters throughout the mario and Luigi series appear multiple times in its series and isn’t limited to 1 appearance.

 

[MattX20]

I feel like Geno and Lloyd surviving this long is definitely not a coincidence. 7 packs over a year and a half and the axe hasn't fallen. Both have been wanted since Brawl, neither were made into assist trophies, Sakurai spoke highly about both of them, upgrades are confirmed via Min Min, and Sakurai made it a point for both of them to be the only third party characters of their respective waves in Smash 4 with Geno even getting a splash screen. You can blow off everything else going for them from the last two years to your own peril but those points you can't steer around.

(Also, huge points in Lloyd's favor that people often blow off: third best selling Namco series, only major Namco series launched on a Nintendo console, and Tales of Symphonia was the first game in the series to sell in all regions as a GameCube exclusive. )

Not to mention said game was popular enough to get a sequel which was also released in the West

 

[AdamBel731]

M Mizzle Pretty sure Smash is a whole different beast. I mean... Mario fights against people with literal guns. Smash by definition is the ultimate **** you to convention. You can have Ridley with bunny ears and Ganondorf literally scream fire from eating spicy curry, stuff that would never happen in canon in a million years. The fact that Mario can even fight a mercenary that's signature move is breaking people's necks, a thief that's finishing move is slitting someone's throat, and a demon summoning sadistic witch who literally fights naked except high heels (canonically her clothes are her hair) with guns and games heavily imply she gets sexual gratification from killing angels are kind of case in point that the rules they apply in the Mario series definitely don't apply here.

To add onto this notion, if Sakurai was able to convince Square Enix to put Final Fantasy AND Dragon Quest into Smash (series with a cluster**** of rights issues), then I think Sakurai can convince Nintendo to put in Geno.

 

[DarkShadow20]

To clarify a misinterpretation on MondoMega, they actually have an individual post explaining that the ONLY inside information they had about Smash is that Sora will not be in.

View attachment 288545

View attachment 288546

Although, it is admittedly followed by a rather curious post right afterward, but, I will let you come to your own conclusions on that one

View attachment 288547
View attachment 288549

Just to be absolutely clear how this works on ResetERA. MondoMega would only be "vetted" for this Sora information as it is the only information they are claiming to be privy too. Obviously it's a bit of a safe prediction considering Disney, but we won't know if it is true until the pass ends. However, the user didn't claim to be privy to info with any of their claims on Mii Costumes, that was a misinterpretation.

So if this guy is legit, he only has info on Sora and that the next reveal would be before the Mario tournament, which heavily implies a Mario character. If we assume that character is Geno, it would seem that he only has info on information relating to Square. Wasn’t there another person like that who leaked Cloud for Smash 4?

 

[xenother]

A 4chan post that has the entire list of characters that were discussed by Nintendo to be in the pass is the biggest load of bull I've heard yet

You have a link to this? I might be able to verify.

 

[MonkeyDLenny]

So if this guy is legit, he only has info on Sora and that the next reveal would be before the Mario tournament, which heavily implies a Mario character. If we assume that character is Geno, it would seem that he only has info on information relating to Square. Wasn’t there another person like that who leaked Cloud for Smash 4?

Saying Sora isn't in doesn't make you an insider; that's a logical conclusion anyone could come to based on his situation

I used this example earlier but: It's like saying "Hey guys, I'm an insider here. So one of the names on Nintendo's list was Scorpion, but it was shot down pretty quick due to its violence and Mortal Kombat not exactly being a thing in Japan" Like... yeah, that's pretty obvious to anyone, I just spun it to sound like a hot scoop

Why are we listening to a literal rando?

 

[*Verrix*]

Just stumbled across this. I would love to have something like this in Smash.

 

[Mizzle]

You have a link to this? I might be able to verify.

/v/ - Video Games » Thread #464169792

arch.b4k.co

 

[Firox]

To add onto this notion, if Sakurai was able to convince Square Enix to put Final Fantasy AND Dragon Quest into Smash (series with a cluster**** of rights issues), then I think Sakurai can convince Nintendo to put in Geno.

THIS. After all the hoops Sakurai had to jump through for Cloud and Hero, you'd think Geno would be an absolute breeze.

Sakurai: "Hey, remember that spin-off Mario character you never use? Can I have him for this big bag of cash?"

SE: "Well, I don't know...he's kinda cool being made of wood and everything..."

Sakurai: "What's that? You don't want free money? Maybe Namco or Bethesda would be interested in—"

SE: "You know what, on second thought, we might be able to throw you a bone."

 

[DarkShadow20]

Saying Sora isn't in doesn't make you an insider; that's a logical conclusion anyone could come to based on his situation

I used this example earlier but: It's like saying "Hey guys, I'm an insider here. So one of the names on Nintendo's list was Scorpion, but it was shot down pretty quick due to its violence and Mortal Kombat not exactly being a thing in Japan" Like... yeah, that's pretty obvious to anyone, I just spun it to sound like a hot scoop

Why are we listening to a literal rando?

That’s why I said “if”. Anyway, wouldn’t he be banned there if he’s claiming to have info but can’t back it up?

 

[MisterMike]

You literally just said that they were the seven characters Square Enix was interested in implementing into Smash. It never said that these were the ones Nintendo had offered them. The two can be- and most likely were- independent of each other. This leads me to some theory-crafting.

Spoiler: Theory-Crafting

I don't believe the "list leak" that has been going around, but let's compare the two for fun.



As you can tell, I've crossed off the ones that are already in Smash as well as Sora, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that Nintendo wanted Kingdom Hearts- Square Enix's third largest series and one with a strong history to Nintendo- in Smash, but the negotiations didn't go well. That leaves us with only Crono and Sephiroth for characters left on both lists.

Even if the "list leak" is fake, it wouldn't surprise me if Geno wasn't even considered by Nintendo. We know that from around the development of Paper Mario: Sticker Star that someone cough Miyamoto cough founded a "Mario IP Purity Team" to make sure that the characters in new Mario games "fit" the universe. Essentially, new characters can only be around for one game and existing species can't be heavily modified. Geno does not fit these new rules for the series, so Geno would never be chosen by Nintendo. What's strange is that the Mii Costume for 4 (released in December of 2015) apparently met the requirements to be included, as the "purity team" would have been established by then. So even if Geno still doesn't end up as a full character, his costume is still likely going to return.

So, since the Seven Squares list has a lot of validity to it, Sora was likely the next in line to be negotiated for. It fell through, leaving Crono, Sephiroth, and Geno. And here's were we go into theory-crafting mode.

*Square Enix was the first company approached for DLC. In fact, discussions for the DLC likely started in base game. All of the characters in the Seven Squares list were at the very least discussed at some point. For FP1, Sakurai had decided to include the Heroes as one slot and give a Mii Hat to Slime. FP2 may have already been in consideration at this point, and Sora was discussed for a potential second character. Sakurai also kept in mind that Square Enix was interested in making Geno a full-fledged fighter, hence why the Geno costume was held back from being included in FP1.

*FP2 was greenlit around E3 2019, and Square Enix was once again the first company approached for DLC discussions.

*Serious negotiations for Sora begun, and they fell through. Despite this, Square Enix was still obviously interested in having a second DLC character, and Sakurai had shifted his attention to Geno- due to his personal interest in the character and high fan demand- and Crono- the backup if Nintendo still shot down Geno. I'm excluding Sephiroth as I think Sakurai would rather represent another game than include a second FF7 character.

tl;dr:
*Nintendo does not want Geno in the game because of the new rules for the Mario IP. However, Sakurai and Square Enix are still interested in the character.

*FP1 was always meant to be the Heroes, Sora was considered for the future character and Geno was held back as a Mii Costume just in case.

*FP2 was greenlit; Sakurai approached Square Enix about including Sora, but negotiations fell through due to Disney; Geno and Crono were then the next in line.

So basically, Geno's fate hangs on a thread because of Nintendo and their strict rules for the Mario IP. To me, it seems like the Square Enix rep for FP2 is either Geno with a Crono costume or Crono with a Geno costume. If Geno gets in, know that it was a request from Sakurai and Square Enix, so you all better thank them for having interest in the character, because Nintendo absolutely did not want it to happen.

If that really were the case, then we would never see the likes of Goombella or Vivian ever again in any game, because they wouldn't fit the current Mario brand. And yet, we have the likes of Kammy and Dimentio appearing as a Spirit in Ultimate. If Nintendo really hated Geno on that basis, then there's no way he would've been a Mii Costume or Spirit to begin with.

Yo im new here, I have lurked around this for years, not often but I have lurked. Geno is my most wanted character ever, right in front of Sora and Shantae. I do hope Geno will make it.

Welcome to the Geno Thread J Joshdabozz !

Your official Geno hat should be arriving soon.

Sorry I'm late! J Joshdabozz Here's your Geno hat!

 

[TheCJBrine]

/v/ - Video Games » Thread #464169792

arch.b4k.co

“As you know Nintendo gave Sakurai a list of characters to choose from, but what was on it has been unknown for some time,”

It’s gotta be fake, the list was only ever a theory; Sakurai never said he chose from a list, and has pretty much said otherwise.

 

[HudU]

You literally just said that they were the seven characters Square Enix was interested in implementing into Smash. It never said that these were the ones Nintendo had offered them. The two can be- and most likely were- independent of each other. This leads me to some theory-crafting.

Spoiler: Theory-Crafting

I don't believe the "list leak" that has been going around, but let's compare the two for fun.



As you can tell, I've crossed off the ones that are already in Smash as well as Sora, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that Nintendo wanted Kingdom Hearts- Square Enix's third largest series and one with a strong history to Nintendo- in Smash, but the negotiations didn't go well. That leaves us with only Crono and Sephiroth for characters left on both lists.

Even if the "list leak" is fake, it wouldn't surprise me if Geno wasn't even considered by Nintendo. We know that from around the development of Paper Mario: Sticker Star that someone cough Miyamoto cough founded a "Mario IP Purity Team" to make sure that the characters in new Mario games "fit" the universe. Essentially, new characters can only be around for one game and existing species can't be heavily modified. Geno does not fit these new rules for the series, so Geno would never be chosen by Nintendo. What's strange is that the Mii Costume for 4 (released in December of 2015) apparently met the requirements to be included, as the "purity team" would have been established by then. So even if Geno still doesn't end up as a full character, his costume is still likely going to return.

So, since the Seven Squares list has a lot of validity to it, Sora was likely the next in line to be negotiated for. It fell through, leaving Crono, Sephiroth, and Geno. And here's were we go into theory-crafting mode.

*Square Enix was the first company approached for DLC. In fact, discussions for the DLC likely started in base game. All of the characters in the Seven Squares list were at the very least discussed at some point. For FP1, Sakurai had decided to include the Heroes as one slot and give a Mii Hat to Slime. FP2 may have already been in consideration at this point, and Sora was discussed for a potential second character. Sakurai also kept in mind that Square Enix was interested in making Geno a full-fledged fighter, hence why the Geno costume was held back from being included in FP1.

*FP2 was greenlit around E3 2019, and Square Enix was once again the first company approached for DLC discussions.

*Serious negotiations for Sora begun, and they fell through. Despite this, Square Enix was still obviously interested in having a second DLC character, and Sakurai had shifted his attention to Geno- due to his personal interest in the character and high fan demand- and Crono- the backup if Nintendo still shot down Geno. I'm excluding Sephiroth as I think Sakurai would rather represent another game than include a second FF7 character.

tl;dr:
*Nintendo does not want Geno in the game because of the new rules for the Mario IP. However, Sakurai and Square Enix are still interested in the character.

*FP1 was always meant to be the Heroes, Sora was considered for the future character and Geno was held back as a Mii Costume just in case.

*FP2 was greenlit; Sakurai approached Square Enix about including Sora, but negotiations fell through due to Disney; Geno and Crono were then the next in line.

So basically, Geno's fate hangs on a thread because of Nintendo and their strict rules for the Mario IP. To me, it seems like the Square Enix rep for FP2 is either Geno with a Crono costume or Crono with a Geno costume. If Geno gets in, know that it was a request from Sakurai and Square Enix, so you all better thank them for having interest in the character, because Nintendo absolutely did not want it to happen.

interesting theorycrafting, but I don't think Geno wasn't ever considered by Nintendo due to the Mario Purity team. I feel like Smash and the Mario series are two separate entities, and have been treated as such. Also how would Geno's Mii Costume follow under these guidelines but him as a playable fighter not meet these requirements? Geno having a moveset accurate to his character isn't heavy modification of his character, thus I think he would still meet the requirements. Though that could just be me being optimistic. Just some of my thoughts.

 

[xenother]

/v/ - Video Games » Thread #464169792

arch.b4k.co

Generally, this hits on most of the names that I heard around that time, with a bunch that never reached my ears.

There are a few missing, for example:
Dante, Melmetal, and Katalina were all prototyped but scrapped.
Geno was on the Square Enix list.
Edelgaard did get some consideration.
Bandana Waddle Dee, Sylux, Slime, Dovakhiin, and the protagonist character of Little Town Hero were all names I heard at some point, but I have doubts about their legitimacy.

Dante is an interesting case because there was some confusion around whether he was only scrapped for the base game and if there was a chance for work to pick back up on him for DLC.

This list could be legitimate, but I'd err on the side of it being a really lucky guess (although there are some names on there that are pretty surprising guesses).

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

THIS. After all the hoops Sakurai had to jump through for Cloud and Hero, you'd think Geno would be an absolute breeze.

Sakurai: "Hey, remember that spin-off Mario character you never use? Can I have him for this big bag of cash?"

SE: "Well, I don't know...he's kinda cool being made of wood and everything..."

Sakurai: "What's that? You don't want free money? Maybe Namco or Bethesda would be interested in—"

SE: "You know what, on second thought, we might be able to throw you a bone."

Out of pure speculation it could’ve been an advertising. Because Cloud was announced pretty close to the beginning of the FFVII Remake hype train and Hero was released just a few months before the release of Dragon Quest XI. So maybe Squares thought process is “well this could be free advertising for out upcoming game” and that’s why they jumped on board at the time they did.

So with that in mind, theoretically, if talks began around Base game for both Geno and Hero. They could’ve planned to release Hero as close as possible to the DQXI release. If the rumor of the SMRPG Remake is true it could be just a matter of when they plan to release or announce said remake

 

[CopperKoopa]

“As you know Nintendo gave Sakurai a list of characters to choose from, but what was on it has been unknown for some time,”

It’s gotta be fake, the list was only ever a theory; Sakurai never said he chose from a list, and has pretty much said otherwise.

/v/ - Video Games » Thread #464169792

arch.b4k.co

I remember seeing this posted when it was live. It reeked then and it reeks now. But I'm not an insider, nor do I have any insider information. It just seems too pie in the sky that the list actually existed and was actually mishandled enough to be posted on 4chan anonymously.

As TheCJBrine says in the quoted post, Sakurai never said he chose from a list. He said the characters are suggested to him by Nintendo, and then he decides if he can make it work:

https://twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1059958604818657282?s=20

Based on what he has said during all of his recent Sakurai Presents videos, it's probably more like Nintendo sends him their suggestions in any which way and he gives them a basic response back either then and there or over some time. It sounds like he also has do some research to make sure the character not only can work in Smash, but everybody is on board with it too. It is highly unlikely there was an actual list. Likely more that Nintendo has general ideas of what it wants to see in the DLC and Sakurai gives them his feedback. Also, I bet they're not throwing out specific characters but more specific games, franchises or developers; according to Sakurai, they asked if he could make Minecraft work in Smash, not "Steve from Minecraft." Get what I'm saying here? I wouldn't be shocked if Sakurai has more say than he lets on and is just deflecting onto Nintendo to avoid being flamed, because it's a little odd to think Nintendo specifically suggested we get playable Banjo or Terry within a complete vacuum. That 100% was them maybe saying "Can we work with SNK?" and Sakurai saying "Oh snap, I would love to put Terry in this game!"

Generally, this hits on most of the names that I heard around that time, with a bunch that never reached my ears.

There are a few missing, for example:
Dante, Melmetal, and Katalina were all prototyped but scrapped.
Geno was on the Square Enix list.
Edelgaard did get some consideration.
Bandana Waddle Dee, Sylux, Slime, Dovakhiin, and the protagonist character of Little Town Hero were all names I heard at some point, but I have doubts about their legitimacy.

Dante is an interesting case because there was some confusion around whether he was only scrapped for the base game and if there was a chance for work to pick back up on him for DLC.

This list could be legitimate, but I'd err on the side of it being a really lucky guess (although there are some names on there that are pretty surprising guesses).

papagenos Fatmanonice Thanks for giving us your take. I mean, all the characters on this list are reasonable, but as I said in my writeup above, it just seems so unlikely that a physical, actual list exists. It's more likely Nintendo spitballs suggestions to Sakurai in a myriad of ways and he shoots them down or picks them up.

 

[7NATOR]

Generally, this hits on most of the names that I heard around that time, with a bunch that never reached my ears.

There are a few missing, for example:
Dante, Melmetal, and Katalina were all prototyped but scrapped.
Geno was on the Square Enix list.
Edelgaard did get some consideration.
Bandana Waddle Dee, Sylux, Slime, Dovakhiin, and the protagonist character of Little Town Hero were all names I heard at some point, but I have doubts about their legitimacy.

Dante is an interesting case because there was some confusion around whether he was only scrapped for the base game and if there was a chance for work to pick back up on him for DLC.

This list could be legitimate, but I'd err on the side of it being a really lucky guess (although there are some names on there that are pretty surprising guesses).

If Dante Was scapped initially, could it be because of the Same Case as Steve where he was too hard to develop at the time

Also, if that info is true, Dante could conflict with Ryu. Considering Dante and Ryu have that Action Game vibe, I don't know if we get more than one. This could be a case where they went with Ryu cause Dante couldn't work, or They Considered Ryu, but rather Dante, and Dropped Ryu...or Both aren't getting in

 

[Droodle]

As an aside, Monster Hunter isn't coming. The developers don't like the hunters fighting, and the only reason they were in Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite is because that game had little to no oversight.

People always say this, but they never source it. MH was denied in MvC 3 because MH wasn't seen as a "good fit at the time" for the Monster Hunter team. It's been a decade since then, and the games are under new leadership. There are no serious rumors that the Monster Hunter team was against Monster Hunter in Infinite, and I don't know where people are getting it from. And there are no rumors suggesting that the devs dislike "Hunters in fighting games". People like to say Infinite was an oversight, but they don't really show any proof in regards to the roster. The Capcom's boss's family is in charge of Monster Hunter, you aren't putting MH in Infinite without them approving/knowing about it, regardless of "oversight".

people need to realize that the Smash developers already decided how to represent the franchise, so I doubt they are going to be adding playable characters from the series anytime soon

Monster Hunter is still one of the most requested/if not the most requested character in Japan (and has been up there since base game). What's to say that the amount of requests didn't convince them to make it a full blown character? I mean if we go by your logic, Geno is also done; they represented him via Spirits in the base game; Spirits that they had to get the rights to from a third party holder. He's in a different situation than Lloyd, who has 0 content at all. ARMS was specifically mentioned (along with Xenoblade 2) as having missed the boat, but a character that Sakurai would have done if it didn't. Geno had no such restrictions of timing placed on him. And heck, if we're arguing that Geno would get in to promote a hypothetical SMRPG remake; why can't MH get in to promote a Rise? We know it's been in the works for 4 years at this point.

I'm not saying MH is in, and Geno isn't. Just saying that the argument that MH can't get more content, because it's in base is kinda stupid. Especially when we argue that Geno/Lloyd are so likely because their costumes are missing. Most of the MH talk in here reminds me of the Steve talk in that it's hilariously one-sided by using things like, "Steve is indie, so he'll be a mii costume", "Minecraft staff said Steve isn't a fighter material", or "Halo is the posterboy for Xbox, no way they put Steve in before Chief".