Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Firox]

Awesome! This tournament not being rescheduled was my last hold up on on smash news coming out. Now that's it's back on I'm confident CP6 and 7 news is imminent. Next week for sure! To be honest I'm okay with the wait. Just 6 months ago I was suicidal in here and ya'll put everything on hold to help me, but now everything is once again good in my life and smash news can come whenever because all the good things in my life are keeping me occupied.

This ended up being super far from what I originally intended to post, but seriously ya'll are amazing and I'll never forget what you did for me.

I'm from California so I think I fall under region 1 for the tournament. Is region 1 still having their tournament on June 20th?

 

[Fenriraga]

Yeah, no way they're going to release a new character before a giant online tourney. Next week it is, then.

 

[pinshadow]

The Smash Ultimate Online Open has now been rescheduled to June 13th and June 14th.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So unless I'm reading this wrong the tournament got rescheduled for this weekend but none of the other ones got pushed back. Meaning it's basically confirmed the character atleast releases the week of the 22nd, neat. Just hope they reveal next week instead of waiting for a shadowdrop.

 

[link2702]

why do I get the feeling we'll be disappointed when those private youtube videos on nintendo's youtube go live? like we're all hoping for the smash reveal, and then they get updated tomorrow or later today and it's just Xenoblade, Animal Crossing, Paper Mario Origami King, or something indie game related?

 

[Qeomash]

Honestly? I doubt we're getting any info at all about 7 this month. We'll only get the Sakurai Presents presentation about the ARMs rep(s).

 

[Vector Victor]

I'll be ticked off if the reveal is just SpringMan. Not because its Springman, but rather because then what was so damn special about the reveal that they couldn't just say this months ago?

I feel this will be Smash 4 Ridley all over again.

Nintendo: 'And whose Ridley-shaped shadow is this? We aren't telling. Its a surprise!'

-Months later-

Nintendo: 'Surprise! The Ridley shadow was Ridley all along! Wasn't that a twist? Are you surprised!?'

I'm sorry, I just hate pointless 'secrets' just to stretch out things.

 

[Qeomash]

I'll be ticked off if the reveal is just SpringMan. Not because its Springman, but rather because then what was so damn special about the reveal that they couldn't just say this months ago?

This is why I'm almost certain it's either a Hero or Belmonts situation. I can just see Nintendo grinning over this: "Who's the ARMs fighter gonna be? Let's find out.....Whoa! It was actually Springman, Min Min, Ribbon Girl, and Ninjara! What a surprise!"

 

[cosmicB]

I brought up the movement tempo because it's part of the characters' designs on a very basic level. "Oh, it would be fine if they just put all the ARMS characters into one." What I'm pointing out is how much effort they put into making each of the characters unique, even down to "pedantic" details like movement tempo. Sakurai even went deeply into his philosophy on this at GDC 2008 and it's definitely worth a read:

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/11/gdc-2008-translation/

This is from 2008, a time before Bowser Jr. and smack dab in the middle of "Ridley is too big" era. He's a lot more willing to make concessions now.

 

[HudU]

Now we just play the waiting game. Remember how long it felt before Byleth was revealed?

 

[Sigran101]

I'm from California so I think I fall under region 1 for the tournament. Is region 1 still having their tournament on June 20th?

I have no idea. Is this supposed to be asking me specifically? Because I don't know any more than you do.

 

[cosmicB]

Yeah, no way they're going to release a new character before a giant online tourney. Next week it is, then.

The giant tournament doesn't even end the individual regions until June 21, which is the Sunday after next. If that's truly the rationale, we aren't getting the character until the final week of June.

 

[Spatulo]

I'll be ticked off if the reveal is just SpringMan. Not because its Springman, but rather because then what was so damn special about the reveal that they couldn't just say this months ago?

I feel this will be Smash 4 Ridley all over again.

Nintendo: 'And whose Ridley-shaped shadow is this? We aren't telling. Its a surprise!'

-Months later-

Nintendo: 'Surprise! The Ridley shadow was Ridley all along! Wasn't that a twist? Are you surprised!?'

I'm sorry, I just hate pointless 'secrets' just to stretch out things.

See this is why part of me thinks it IS just Springman

There’s precedent

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

Dark Samus and Daisy were added over 10 years well after their base character's debut. Neither were a straight-out costume at any point either. They aren't an alt situation ignored. They were never real alts to begin with. Only Dark Pit was a straight-out alt to begin with, and then separated at some point(after he properly existed).

The situation here is closer to Castlevania, but we aren't getting any bonus characters, so Echoes won't happen. They are a Ness situation in how they work, combining abilities to make one character. That's already going to happen with ARMS, cause the ARMS are what matters as the core representation in Smash. The character abilities aren't all that unique in every case. Anybody can easily kick, do a comeback mechanic, jump multiple times, or use the Dragon ARM. Not everybody can teleport or float either, or use someone as a springboard. However, many moves can be inspired by others. Spring Man can use his hands to give himself a boost as a reference to Barq & Byte's springboard ability. Not all moves are created equal overall. In Smash, you have well over 20 moves. No individual has 20 moves in ARMS itself. There's less due to how the controls work. Small tidbits/references to others is already inevitable. This doesn't mean using the same animations either, as that's where the real individuality lies. Which makes sense why an alt situation is not likely. That doesn't mean a frankenstein moveset is unlikely however. It's already going to happen due to the ARMS being the most important thing for whoever is chosen, but a lot of the abilities are actually generic anyway for others to reference.

Alts =/= using the abilities of others without using the exact animations(these are very different arguments and why people still expect outright an ARMS character will use some moves of another one regardless of whether they also have a direct alt or not). While Ness' lack of animations were brought up, this isn't a very good point in itself either. PK Thunder is designed where it doesn't target a particular character and can hit different enemies without a particular pattern to it. In Smash, this is how it works, not being in a straight line and goes all over the place. PK Fire can hit some enemies far more damage than others. This is represented in Smash by it staying on the field for a while by doing lingering damage, to capitalize on a burning-like effect. You can retool moves to easily fit the settings regardless of animations. While Lucario is clearly based upon his anime abilities and fighting style, it doesn't use the exact same animations all the time, taking liberties. This is to be expected to make it work. As I noted before, Spring Man can easily kick. He won't kick identically to Min Min because they have different overall animations, but it'd still work practically in the same way anyway, since it's an easy to do move. If you want a good example of this, look at Isabelle, someone who doesn't actually have a canonical ability to do a lot of stuff Villager does. Pocket and the Party Popper she shares properly with Villager. She's never once used a Tool, but she has handed certain tools like Party Poppers and Glow Wands(they fall under Tool gameplay within the series) and is easy to believe she can use generic items like that. Other animal villagers literally use that kind of thing. That's what people mean by generic gameplay being interchangeable enough to make for an easy Ness situation.

...Let's just say it's not really easy to explain every detail, but a Ness situation beyond the ARMS is very likely due to certain moves being generic enough to work. Ness had more canonical abilities than any particular cast member of ARMS too, but a lot of those moves weren't plausible within Smash either, nor make for a coherent moveset. The importance is coherency in making it work, not how accurate it is. That's why Ganondorf never fully used anything but his non-canon broadsword as a proper part of his individual moveset(the custom specials and taunt work without disrupting his moveset flow for TP Ganondorf, but they don't work for OOT Ganondorf because his moveset is brute force. A sword designed more around fencing doesn't flow well). It's why Pikachu only resembles its anime appearance while not working similar to the games much at all. Skull Bash is a great example of having a very clear animation being ignored so it makes more sense in Smash. There's no rearing the head back. It's just sitting still in a stance and then flying off. The anime also did it differently from Smash and the games. This is the kind of animation liberties being talked about, and happens with most of the cast as is. Or abilities that aren't accurate(Monado Arts loosely resembles Xenoblade Chronicles' system but makes sense for a Smash moveset). Etc.

These are all really good points too. Plenty of Smash characters have served as some kind of hybrid to represent a larger part of their series than just themselves and to fill spots in their moveset that would otherwise be lacking or repetitive and uninspired. I apologize in advance for quoting something that I only really address in this first paragraph here as the rest of what follows is more of a general post about these issues with alts/Ness tier movesets/etc in relation to ARMS.

I guess my question then for the people arguing an alt situation would be upsetting for them would be: would you honestly rather have a Ness situation? That seems like it would be far more of a disservice than alts that have slight differences. Not to mention the unaddressed possibility that this ARMS character if it is a multiple characters in one situation could be the first instance of alts with significant differences that retain personality of each alt.

You wouldn't be wrong to accuse me of not being an ARMS fan. But I am impressed by the characters and art style of the game and my short time with it, while in the end leaving me uninterested, I really saw it as a game with incredible potential and an incredible and diverse cast despite general gameplay feeling relatively uniform. More so I am a fan of Smash tho and many series in Smash. I'll hone in here on Metroid. Samus' moveset itself only partially makes sense, Ridley feels so wrong in the air to me, ZSS ..actually this one seems pretty accurate I think, and then Dark Samus is an echo of a character who's moveset already only partially makes sense mixed with the fact that Dark Samus could easily be a fully unique character and is wholly unlike Samus apart from appearance. Yet despite that last bit and Dark Samus having been a huge want for me, not only am I totally fine with the echo, I would have been totally fine with just a visual alt let alone an alt that has differences would have made me estatic. Echo is of course great too. In DLC we probably don't have the luxury or possibilitily of 3 echoes or possibly even 1.

What it boils down to is not a difference in experience or opinion on ARMS itself but rather on Smash. People arguing for a singular hyper accurate character and I simply disagree on a fundamental level. My preference is content and I am happy with more characters who served as odes to their home series opposed to less who represent their series and/or characters as accurately as possible within the confines of Smash. I feel like the same people arguing for a singular ARMS character are the same arguing that Frisk could never be a fighter because of how important pacifism is in UT and I will never ever agree with that stance plain and simple it is just wrong imo. Smash already shows how important and cool it is to have characters who are odes to their series or backgrounds (R.O.B., Villager, Dark Samus, Duck Hunt, etc).

Basically if Sakurai asked me if I wanted Shadow the hedgehog but only as an alt for Sonic or no Shadow at all then I'd say "yeah give me that alt please!" Not "no way dude it's either echo or fully unique fighter or nothing for me man". It is the same with ARMS because this is all we get for Ultimate. It's possible in another Smash game that we would get multiple ARMS characters separately but for Ultimate we get this one spot so I want it to count not just be one character with a hybrid or highly repititive moveset.

If someone would like to show me a really cool moveset for a singular ARMS character who does not have a hybrid moveset I would love to look at that and that might help me better understand or get my head around how that could work well and the level of detail that you're fighting for. But yeah basically all this to ask the people arguing for a singular character these questions: what would the moveset look like to you and how does it compare to movesets involving alts or hybrid elements (aka Ness character), would you be ok with alts that are basically echoes allowing for more personality and unique animations even though this is unprecedented, and are you ok with Ness tier shenanigans with the moveset more or less than you are with alts and why?

Here's a few thoughts to wrap things up. Do I think Sakurai sees things the same way I do? No I don't. I think Sakurai would prefer that all these characters be echoes. Although I could still see Spring Man with Ribbon Girl alt since characters already have multiple jumps in Smash and a rage mechanic with just some animation differences to give off their differing personalities. I think it's most likely that Sakurai would do Spring Man or Min Min as singular fighters or maybe Spring Man with a Springtron alt now that all this discussion has gotten me to think more about what Sakurai would do. I'm honestly not sure what Nintendo would push for, but I think chances are they would trust Sakurai's creative direction meaning that precedent and Sakurai's thoughts are the most important factors for considering what likely will happen with the ARMS rep. However, it's possible Nintendo pressured Sakurai for more or Sakurai challenged himself to do some alts that are basically echoes or that Sakurai saw a way to have alts without losing personality in some way that we are not thinking of. Please remember that Sakurai said this pass is truly extra and that could mean a lot of different things but alts like this could be one. Again I now think a singular fighter or Spring Man/Springtron are the most likely, but other things definitely could happen and the singular fighter even if done in a Ness-like fashion is definitely not my preference. I don't think I'm going to keep talking about this as it's kind of pointless. None of us are going to change each other's minds and that's fine. We don't have to agree on everything. We will find out sometime this month who the ARMS rep(s) really is/are and regardless of who it ends up being, Geno has a great chance of happening in this pass too and that's what really matters. Someone mentioned their perfect pass earlier so I'll end with mine (in order of how I think they'd be revealed even though this isn't going to be the pass at all):
1. Spring Man/Ribbon Girl/Ninjara/Min Min as alts that are basically echoes
2. Crash with a Coco alt
3. Geno (with a Genette alt just kidding I just want a Geno's Pizza alt...alright for real just palette swaps)
4. Rayman (with Hoodlum Havoc power up alts and/or Raymesis and alts from Legends)
5. This spot has a lot of competition unlike other spots. If it weren't for Crash being heavily related to Sony I would probably say Ratchet & Clank, but since Crash is already in the pass and Isaac is kind of samey despite differing moveset potential to a lot of characters currently in the roster, I'll say Frisk (could have *spoiler* alt) because I just think they would bring so much new things to Smash both by being an Indie character and with endless moveset potential.
6. Master Chief (lots of alt options with all the different Spartan armor options, could have an ODST alt, or just palette swaps) - I also think Master Chief could have a really cool moveset and people just aren't thinking creatively when they say he'd be boring.

 

[RedMachine123]

Aight, place your bets now folks! If Arms character is a spirit, Geno will still be deconfirmed because:
a) Sakurai said Arms was a "special request" so we're not allowed to use them in spirit speculation because reasons (This one is already being used, so expect less of a payout if you're right)
b) Arms is first party spirits so those are allowed, but 3rd party spirits (like Geno) are still deconfirmed because reasons
c) The Arms character(s) will have slightly updated designs from their original ones in Amrs, meaning it's technically not the same as the spirit they had meaning a spirit was never upgraded, meaning spirits deconfirm because reaons
d) I really really really really don't want Dumb Blue Puppet in this game so spirits are still deconfirmed after this because, say it with me now, reasons

All of these excuses will be used because, as Enigma735 said, is not about giving logical reasons, is about moving the goalpost.

But to be honest, I think that the majority of the detractors will just move to other useless excuses like irrelevant, one game, side character... so my bets are on "reason D".

But it will be worth it when Geno gets revealed we just have to wait a little longer, he will get in, I'm sure of it. N̶o̶t̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶I̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶d̶e̶l̶e̶t̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶l̶a̶s̶t̶ p̶a̶r̶a̶g̶r̶a̶p̶h̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶G̶e̶n̶o̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶.̶

 

[Firox]

I have no idea. Is this supposed to be asking me specifically? Because I don't know any more than you do.

You seemed pretty interested/knowledgeable about the tourney so I thought you'd know. Don't worry about it, I checked Battlefly and it looks like I'm still on for the 20th.

 

[CannonStreak]

About those private videos on Youtube on Nintendo's playlist, there is only one private video now. And it is on the Available Now playlist. I wonder, would it even cover Smash if the DLC is not available by the time this private video becomes public?

 

[Sigran101]

You seemed pretty interested/knowledgeable about the tourney so I thought you'd know. Don't worry about it, I checked Battlefly and it looks like I'm still on for the 20th.

Oh haha, well thanks for thinking I'm smart! Unfortunately I don't know much of anything and I just thought the tournament getting a new date bodes well for smash news next week.

 

[Enigma735]

As of right now, these are my predictions for who is in Fighters Pass Volume 2. Without taking too much time, however, I will just briefly go over everything these characters have going for them and why I think these are the most likely characters.

CP6: ARMS Conglomerate - Rumors from very reliable and credible insiders seem to suggest that this ARMS character will be a conglomerate that will be more fighters that share the same slot, namely Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, and Min Min. As such, I do believe this is the route Nintendo will be taking for this character and I also think their is a possibility we could see even more ARMS characters as part of this slot.

CP7: Geno - Do I even need to explain the evidence in Geno's favor? Just take a look at Polarthief 's list and you'll understand why Geno has a strong chance.

CP8: Lloyd Irving - Namco is literally developing this game and they only have one rep with PAC-MAN, and the missing Namco Mii Outfits is REALLY suspicious in my opinion and I think the reason why they haven't returned yet is because they are planning to bring those outfits along with another Namco character.

CP9: Rayman - A lot of strange things have been happening with Rayman lately like the Ubisoft Club App thing, Rayman's trademark being renewed by a third-party company, just like what happened with Banjo & Kazooie, and the inclusion of Ubisoft Mii Outfits with Byleth. Not to mention the fact that Nintendo And Ubisoft have a strong relationship, so it wouldn't surprise me to see Ubisoft allow Rayman to get included, and I do believe he is the most likely Western rep at this time.

CP10: Sol Badguy - A more "out there" prediction, but I do believe Sol Badguy has a shot. Arc System Works recently got a Spirit event, which shows that Arc is willing to work with Nintendo on Smash, and the obvious fact that Sakurai loves fighting games makes me feel like he could definitely include another one, especially one that most people aren't expecting, kinda like Terry.

CP11: Rex & Pyra - Sakurai has wanted to include Rex during the base roster days, much like an ARMS character, but didn't happen due to Xenoblade 2's short release. Since we are getting an ARMS rep now, and the fact that Rex & Pyra always rank high on ballots, then its very likely that now just might be the time these two join Smash.

A few honorable mentions that almost made it to the list are Travis Touchdown, Ryu Hayabusa, and Rillaboom.

 

[Firox]

Oh haha, well thanks for thinking I'm smart! Unfortunately I don't know much of anything and I just thought the tournament getting a new date bodes well for smash news next week.

Must be the Futaba profile pic. Makes me think of an eccentric tech guru or something.

 

[CannonStreak]

It's been 23 minutes. Is anyone going to answer my question from my last post on this page? I really want to know.

 

[Kremling Kommander]

About those private videos on Youtube on Nintendo's playlist, there is only one private video now. And it is on the Available Now playlist. I wonder, would it even cover Smash if the DLC is not available by the time this private video becomes public?

I don’t think so, none of the Smash DLC trailers/presentations are under there. I’m guessing the private videos are trailers of already released games.

 

[CannonStreak]

I don’t think so, none of the Smash DLC trailers/presentations are under there. I’m guessing the private videos are trailers of already released games.

That's what I was thinking, to be honest.

Well, so much for that.

 

[QQS]

Couple of days more. Next week is ARMS and GENO 100%. Probably even more, like Crash.

 

[CannonStreak]

Couple of days more. Next week is ARMS and GENO 100%. Probably even more, like Crash.

How is a couple of days next week? That is actually four days from now, unless I am missing something else, or another point you are trying to make?

 

[MattX20]

How is a couple of days next week? That is actually four days from now, unless I am missing something else, or another point you are trying to make?

He's trying to be optimistic.

 

[CannonStreak]

He's trying to be optimistic.

Yeah, possibly inaccurate in favor of optimism, but no offense there.

 

[Fatmanonice]

It's kind of funny because I could see Sony bargaining with Nintendo to hold off on certain announcements as not to undermine the PS5.

"Okay, we've all read the memo... Batman is coming to Smash... Can you PLEASE give us a few days before you proceed to suck all the oxygen out of the room?! Please and thanks..."

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, I could see the Arms presentation + reveal of an assist/Spirit promotion happening Next week.

 

[Polarthief]

Just take a look at Polarthief 's list

Here's your complimentary uwu~ good sir.

(also replacing Sol with Crash is about what I'm predicting, only cuz idk who the heck Sol is)

It's kind of funny because I could see Sony bargaining with Nintendo to hold off on certain announcements as not to undermine the PS5.

"Okay, we've all read the memo... Batman is coming to Smash... Can you PLEASE give us a few days before you proceed to suck all the oxygen out of the room?! Please and thanks..."

But they're the fUtUrE oF gAmInG! They wouldn't dare need to bargain with the peasantry that is Nintendo.

 

[Droodle]

It's kind of funny because I could see Sony bargaining with Nintendo to hold off on certain announcements as not to undermine the PS5.

"Okay, we've all read the memo... Batman is coming to Smash... Can you PLEASE give us a few days before you proceed to suck all the oxygen out of the room?! Please and thanks..."

Not at all. Playstation is huge, the logo reveal of the PS 5 is still one of the most liked gaming tweets of all time; Sony isn't afraid of Nintendo in any territory aside from maybe Japan. Smash is definitely a big game, but its not big enough to overshadow the existence of a new console reveal. Even Goku/Batman in Smash (while huge) wouldn't really effect Sony's marketing for the PS5 event in most areas. They'd still dominate sites like twitter. Again, Smash is just 1 game; it's not going to get Sony to worry about the success of this event (unless the event is a huge trashfire).

It's more likely that Nintendo is holding off on the potential ARMS/Character 7 reveal, because they don't want to be overshadowed by anything Sony announces.

 

[pinshadow]

It's kind of funny because I could see Sony bargaining with Nintendo to hold off on certain announcements as not to undermine the PS5.

"Okay, we've all read the memo... Batman is coming to Smash... Can you PLEASE give us a few days before you proceed to suck all the oxygen out of the room?! Please and thanks..."

TBH If even half of the stuff people have speculated will be at this show happens I think it could just be the other way around, with Nintendo moving Smash to next week to get their own time. Smash is a news vaccuum but it isn't THAT powerful.

 

[Fatmanonice]

>Sony executives looking over Nintendo's E3 2020 plans.

"Says here that they're planning on announcing a game *squints* where you can literally summon Ganondorf to cuck your high school bully?"

....

"DAMNIT! HOW DO THEY ALWAYS DO This?!?"

"*sigh* I'll start making some phone calls..."

 

[Vector Victor]

TBH If even half of the stuff people have speculated will be at this show happens I think it could just be the other way around, with Nintendo moving Smash to next week to get their own time. Smash is a news vaccuum but it isn't THAT powerful.

Then Nintendo decides to avoid that concern by not showing anything.

Whoever is in their Marketing department now needs to be sent back to school for Marketing Basics 101: want people to buy your product? Then actually SHOW something of it.

 

[JarBear]

That’s too radical of thinking bro.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Ya'll I love the Smash and Nintendo as much as the rest of you, but ya'll crazy if it's not more likely the other way around.

Nintendo definitely held off on announcing things this week, because the successor to one of the top selling consoles of all time is being revealed today alongside probably a slew of titles.

They'd get lost in the crowd, not the other way around.

 

[Fenriraga]

My friends are cruel.

 

[pinshadow]

Guess Sony is up first this year for Schmee3, they haven't actually held a real conference in 2 years so let's see if it pays off. Got a bingo card I made in 5 minutes ready.

Spoiler: Bingo

Prepared for 80% of it not to happen. I'm still working on that SMRPG review thing by the way, just kinda waiting for the right time to post it, probably over the weekend.

 

[Nicnac]

@JDCabrera a new ratchet and clank game got announced

 

[Fatmanonice]

@JDCabrera a new ratchet and clank game got announced

I know it's not Nintendo but this is seriously like the 5th dead franchise that's been revived this year and the 3rd in a month! Jesus...

 

[Firox]

I know it's not Nintendo but this is seriously like the 5th dead franchise that's been revived this year and the 3rd in a month! Jesus...

I think the video game industry is falling into the same rut as the movie industry: Nobody's got any new ideas so they have no choice but to make prequels, sequels, whateveruels of pre-existing IPs. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but it seems to be the trend. To be fair, I think a lot of the old vintage franchises are also some of the best.