Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Lord Woomy]

That's irrelevant. Many people actually watched the E3 livestream. Significantly more were tuned in towards the end than the exact beginning, or they just watched the entire E3 video. That would naturally mean that they didn't need to then watch the reveal video.

Without bothering to look, I'd be willing to bet Byleth and Joker were the "most watched" videos since not nearly as many people watched VGA 2018 compared to E3 2019 or even the Q3 2019 direct, and to have seen Byleth's reveal, you'd have watched the Sakurai video for them.

Hey man, if Youtube views aren't a metric for sales then I don't know what is!

 

[Polarthief]

Hey man, if Youtube views aren't a metric for sales then I don't know what is!

Just like the official poll, we'll never know the sales numbers. The problem is because you can also buy them individually. There's a good chance many people who bought FP1 (and even FP2) are fanboys and people who have a longstanding love of Nintendo (+1 from this guy), vs people picking and choosing who they want because they like the character. There's a good chance that people like me would have bought Banjo alone, but because we bought FP1 entirely, we just don't even count for that metric.

That's not necessarily a fact, but at the very least, I know I'm in that boat and if I was buying a la carte, I doubt I would have bought Byleth and possibly a few of the others (Terry? Hero? idk). On top of that, you also have the problem that some of us bought early or even pre-purchased, completely removing us from the metric. The latter-half characters didn't even get a chance to be bought separately by many of us since the people who were gonna buy the entire pass likely bought it by Banjo's reveal or sooner.

 

[MattX20]

We also have to consider one other factor regarding the Fighter Pass selection: the third parties and their respective shares of the profits. If Nintendo doesn't move the pass with a real major highlight by FP8, I imagine the companies involved would be rather angry

 

[a random user]

We also have to consider one other factor regarding the Fighter Pass selection: the third parties and their respective shares of the profits. If Nintendo doesn't move the pass with a real major highlight by FP8, I imagine the companies involved would be rather angry

if 7/8 are third party they might even feel insulted that players aren't buying their characters, which might decrease the chance of those series being ported, if no one wants to buy the character, why would they want to buy the game

 

[axel_]

So after Fatmanonice mentioned Mewtwo, there's a realization I haven't seen much about Spirits: The custom moves and trophies.

Y'see, for some reason in Smash 4 you could make custom profiles for non-DLC characters for modified specials. Nobody really liked them because they were always busted (it was the only thing that made Palutena good). The most interesting thing some specials did was give characters some moves from their removed semi-clones, the most important example being Ness, as he had some of Lucas' specials. They weren't exact, but it was still similar enough on the surface: PK Freeze, a single burst PK Fire, a lasting/multi-hitting PK Thunder, and a forward facing PSI Magnet. So Lucas' functions were already present in Smash from the start.

This leads into the trophies.
As far as Mewtwo and Lucas go, I think that the trophy that came before him is the exact same situation as Spirits. The trophies exist to represent characters in a 3D space that can't be fighters, which is already more workload than a PNG. If they wanted to add these two characters as a fighter they couldn't rig the trophy models themselves due to their low quality compared to Smash fighters alongside them not being original Smash models (and they would need to do TWO for each because of the 3DS version), and they would've had to redo all the animations since the animation style in Smash 4 is very different from Melee and Brawl and probably wouldn't have fit the rig of the Smash 4 models.

By all accounts this would be way too much work for characters that are already represented by Sora LTD. and Nintendo's vision, so Mewtwo and Lucas had no reaspn to come back.

But they did, because they don't care.

 

[cosmicB]

Sorry, you misunderstand, and I probably should have been more specific: People want a "playable Minecraft character", but the best they have is Steve (or Alex). Minecraft has no real characters, just an avatar that grunts when injured. Steve (and by extension, Alex) has no personality, no characteristics, no anything. They're the blandest of the bland, boring, blank-slate characters, that's the best they're gonna get. If there was an actual character that talked and did something more, you bet your ass people would want them over Steve.

FTR: This isn't me hating on Steve/Minecraft, not at all, I actually enjoy Minecraft. It's me pointing out the fact that Steve is barely a character, and sadly the *only* character (with Alex as an obvious alt) that you're gonna get if you want a playable Minecraft character.

That said, he would be somewhere in the Terry-Byleth area for the general Smash player, but he would probably bring in a ton of new players. To me personally, he'd be a Terry-level character.



That's irrelevant. Many people actually watched the E3 livestream. Significantly more were tuned in towards the end than the exact beginning, or they just watched the entire E3 video. That would naturally mean that they didn't need to then watch the reveal video.

Without bothering to look, I'd be willing to bet Byleth and Joker were the "most watched" videos since not nearly as many people watched VGA 2018 compared to E3 2019 or even the Q3 2019 direct, and to have seen Byleth's reveal, you'd have watched the Sakurai video for them.



The former is irrelevant because he's the highest tier of any of the DLC characters. The latter is very biased in favor of him because of literally what I just said: Not nearly as many people watched VGA 2018 compared to people who watched E3 (or even Q3 Direct) 2019. Without even bothering to look, I'll bet you that Byleth was #2, Terry was #3, Hero was #4, and Banjo was #5, based on people who watched those events live (and therefore wouldn't need to watch the videos).

Don't the livestream views carry over to the video views?

Anyway the point stands that this conversation can't have any basis beyond anecdotes because the metrics that would tell one story or another do not exist publicly. "Whoa, I saw this character win a poll that had 20,000 votes!" is just as much confirmation bias as anything else we'd be able to scrounge up without having more sensitive knowledge. But perhaps I'm wrong and Fatman actually is privy to individual pass sales data, in which case I'll concede that point. Without that, the next best thing is view count and trying to put together a whole lot of inconclusive data that in the end might not even mean anything.

 

[Polarthief]

Don't the livestream views carry over to the video views?

Assuming you're watching from YouTube and not elsewhere, yes, the livestream views carry over to the VGA 2018, E3 2019, Q3 Direct 2019, and Sakurai Introduces Byleth 2020 videos, but if you're watching *just* the reveal videos, which is what I assume you were pointing out, no. Those start from scratch, a whopping 0 views. This means that if you watched E3 2019, there's a good chance you saw Hero and didn't need to watch his video, and an even bigger chance you saw Banjo and therefore didn't watch that one (because you may have missed the beginning, but likely would have tuned in sometime after Hero). From there, there's way, way, WAY more people watching E3 footage over a Q3 direct, and significantly less people watching a Sakurai video (even with a reveal) or the VGAs (and after 2019's mess and Nintendo trolling everyone, VGA 2020 will likely be the same turnout as 2018). This is why Joker and Byleth's reveal videos have way more views, because most erveryone saw Banjo (and Hero) live and didn't need to watch them when they were uploaded post-livestream.

Anyway the point stands that this conversation can't have any basis beyond anecdotes because the metrics that would tell one story or another do not exist publicly. "Whoa, I saw this character win a poll that had 20,000 votes!" is just as much confirmation bias as anything else we'd be able to scrounge up without having more sensitive knowledge. But perhaps I'm wrong and Fatman actually is privy to individual pass sales data, in which case I'll concede that point. Without that, the next best thing is view count and trying to put together a whole lot of inconclusive data that in the end might not even mean anything.

My point was that view count is irrelevant. You're not going to get a good metric unless Nintendo tells you, and even as I pointed out earlier, that's also pointless because of the Fighter's Pass. There's a good chance Byleth's individual sales are incredibly low due to being last on the pass; everyone who would buy the pass by then bought it and couldn't buy Byleth individually. In addition, people who have been around since the N64 era would have bought Banjo, but likely bought the FP instead since we had good faith in Nintendo and Sakurai to deliver a solid pass.

TL;DR: The best overall metric to go by is the general public's reaction to the characters, and that's not even a good metric, but it's the only thing I can possibly think of that wouldn't be soured by a season pass vs individual sales and the redundancy of watching a reveal video you already likely watched vs not likely seeing it live. Banjo & Kazooie definitely had the highest positivity and least negativity over the others, but like everything, did have its fair share of detractors (especially anyone hoping for Steve or MC). Byleth definitely had the most negativity, and even Nintendo struggled to find really good influencer reactions (they really had to dig deep to find an "alright, yeah" kind of reaction for that one video they posted). Meanwhile, Joker was probably the most out-of-nowhere pick and I doubt people even expected a reveal at VGA, which just added to the "they'll never see it coming" aspect of him. FTR: I'm only talking about the West. I'm sure Asia went mental over Hero as much as we did over BK, but I don't follow what's going on over there, so... I wouldn't know.

 

[cosmicB]

Assuming you're watching from YouTube and not elsewhere, yes, the livestream views carry over to the VGA 2018, E3 2019, Q3 Direct 2019, and Sakurai Introduces Byleth 2020 videos, but if you're watching *just* the reveal videos, which is what I assume you were pointing out, no. Those start from scratch, a whopping 0 views. This means that if you watched E3 2019, there's a good chance you saw Hero and didn't need to watch his video, and an even bigger chance you saw Banjo and therefore didn't watch that one (because you may have missed the beginning, but likely would have tuned in sometime after Hero). From there, there's way, way, WAY more people watching E3 footage over a Q3 direct, and significantly less people watching a Sakurai video (even with a reveal) or the VGAs (and after 2019's mess and Nintendo trolling everyone, VGA 2020 will likely be the same turnout as 2018). This is why Joker and Byleth's reveal videos have way more views, because most erveryone saw Banjo (and Hero) live and didn't need to watch them when they were uploaded post-livestream.

In that case, that just brings us back to not actually having any real measurable metric for "levels of excitement" with any given character because every possible number we could bring out is going to have a caveat. It's why I don't think it's useful to throw in whether a reveal was "mixed" or not for the sake of speculation because that's not actually something we can know for sure with any of them outside of Byleth because Nintendo straight up commented on the reaction, and for all we know sales were just as good for them as the rest of the pass, so again it's a moot point. It's also kind of downplaying how big a deal Dragon Quest getting into Smash was both from a legacy standpoint and a fan-requested one.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Sorry, you misunderstand, and I probably should have been more specific: People want a "playable Minecraft character", but the best they have is Steve (or Alex). Minecraft has no real characters, just an avatar that grunts when injured. Steve (and by extension, Alex) has no personality, no characteristics, no anything. They're the blandest of the bland, boring, blank-slate characters, that's the best they're gonna get. If there was an actual character that talked and did something more, you bet your ass people would want them over Steve.

FTR: This isn't me hating on Steve/Minecraft, not at all, I actually enjoy Minecraft. It's me pointing out the fact that Steve is barely a character, and sadly the *only* character (with Alex as an obvious alt) that you're gonna get if you want a playable Minecraft character.

Alright, that’s fair, but people still care about Steve specifically, I guess due to knowing him for a long time and becoming attached to him like me. And there are Minecraft characters with more personality than what Steve and Alex are given in a few videos, animations, art, marketing material and one Lego Club Magazine issue; the Story Mode characters. But no one is asking for them, or at least not most people (I haven’t seen anyone asking for them personally, just suggesting the possibility of Steve getting Jesse as an alt., but they still wanted Steve as the face); they all want Steve with Alex taking up alts (not gonna lie I haven’t even seen anyone suggest Alex with Steve as an alt instead, I think all or most people really want Steve as the face). Some people like me even wanted the Minecraft movie to be focused around Steve and Alex, to our dismay; we want them to be used in narrative stuff because we care about them and don’t care about entirely new dudes having personality and whatever. We all argue against people who bring up “no personality” as something against his Smash inclusion and stuff, no one cares about that; we don’t agree with people who say that normally and they just dislike him, no one says “yeah Steve isn’t cool or interesting but he’s all we got.” No, we genuinely care about Steve and want him specifically.

If Minecraft started off with a different character that had a bunch of personality or at least to the extent of Mario or somebody, and they were the main dude, then sure, maybe Steve would’ve been forgotten if he was just a temporary dude with nothing, but he’s the one we all got to know, have come to love, the one who’s one of the mascots, and he at least has a little bit of personality according to the Lego Club thing and how he’s used in stuff; people use examples of Steve having personality in official stuff to counter those arguments I’ve mentioned. Most people wouldn’t stop caring about Nintendo’s protagonists that have little to barely any or no personality if, hypothetically, they were suddenly replaced with different but similar characters that were also stated to be different; in fact, a lot of people would be miffed, moreso if they were kept that way for further games after the first one doing it. A lot of us love Mario, Link, Ninten, Ness, etc. And none of us would stop caring about Geno if a hypothetical sequel gave us a different but similar character with even more depth who’s also from Star Road.

 

[cosmicB]

TL;DR: The best overall metric to go by is the general public's reaction to the characters, and that's not even a good metric, but it's the only thing I can possibly think of that wouldn't be soured by a season pass vs individual sales and the redundancy of watching a reveal video you already likely watched vs not likely seeing it live.

This is what I'm talking about though. "General public reaction" is a meaningless statement without a way to actually measure it.

So what ways can we measure? View count? Like to dislike ratio (this will generally go in favor of the former for smaller cult followings)? Twitter likes? Retweets? Overall engagement and mentions (keep in mind this combines positive and negative)? Emails sent to Sakurai's cat?

Where does "the most positive reaction" come from? If people have actual statistics, I'd be more than happy to look at them.

 

[Enigma735]

In that case, that just brings us back to not actually having any real measurable metric for "levels of excitement" with any given character because every possible number we could bring out is going to have a caveat. It's why I don't think it's useful to throw in whether a reveal was "mixed" or not for the sake of speculation because that's not actually something we can know for sure with any of them outside of Byleth because Nintendo straight up commented on the reaction, and for all we know sales were just as good for them as the rest of the pass, so again it's a moot point. It's also kind of downplaying how big a deal Dragon Quest getting into Smash was both from a legacy standpoint and a fan-requested one.

Oh dear god don't even get me started on this topic. The fact that you're bringing up views as evidence that Banjo is the least popular DLC is completely laughable, and even if he was, who would care anyway? Also, like Polar said, most people watched the Banjo presentation when it went live during the Direct which isn't a fair comparison, like at all. In fact, if you total up the number of views the September Direct has AS well as the Banjo presentation itself, that actually rounds itself up to Banjo being the most viewed DLC character, as I guarantee most people that watched the September Direct stayed tuned for the Banjo showcase right after.

Also, just because we are defending Banjo does not mean we think Dragon Quest wasn't deserving of having a spot in Smash, because I would be lying if I said it wouldn't. But to come up with stupid reasons as to why you dislike a character is bound to have people come at you disagreeing with you. I just don't think your logic makes any sense

 

[cosmicB]

Oh dear god don't even get me started on this topic. The fact that you're bringing up views as evidence that Banjo is the least popular DLC is completely laughable, and even if he was, who would care anyway? Also, like Polar said, most people watched the Banjo presentation when it went live during the Direct which isn't a fair comparison, like at all. In fact, if you total up the number of views the September Direct has AS well as the Banjo presentation itself, that actually rounds itself up to Banjo being the most viewed DLC character, as I guarantee most people that watched the September Direct stayed tuned for the Banjo showcase right after.

Also, just because we are defending Banjo does not mean we think Dragon Quest wasn't deserving of having a spot in Smash, because I would be lying if I said it wouldn't. But to come up with stupid reasons as to why you dislike a character is bound to have people come at you disagreeing with you. I just don't think your logic makes any sense

This all started with me taking issue with other characters being seen as "mixed" while another was "universally loved" when we don't have any reasonable metrics to decide that (outside of Byleth). It has nothing to do with liking a character or not. Banjo is my 2nd favorite character of the whole fighters pass.

 

[Lord Woomy]

Nintendo looking up the views on each fighter's character presentations to gauge how successful they were like

 

[Enigma735]

This all started with me taking issue with other characters being seen as "mixed" while another was "universally loved" when we don't have any reasonable metrics to decide that (outside of Byleth). It has nothing to do with liking a character or not. Banjo is my 2nd favorite character of the whole fighters pass.

Oh okay then. I only read half of the conversation and only read the start of this page.

 

[Loliko YnT]

Ike can fight against his younger self, and Dr. Mario can clash with his uneducated alter-ego, but to suggest a character can exist as both playable and a PNG? I'm sorry, that's just a little too silly. Let's try to keep things grounded in realism, folks.

View attachment 272659

To push that image even further...
8 Ice Climbers can play on fountain of dreams. (Well the reflections are disabled but SHHHHHHHH)

---

Also , to put my 2 cents on the whole deluxe mii costume thingie....

I think people don't realize that the characters choosen for that weren't seen as frontrunners , massive fan requests , or huge gaming icons.
Like... Sans , as much as I genuinely love the guy (I watched too many AUs comics) , he's always been considered a big meme in the community , despise having people who genuinely want him.
Did everyone forget how much everyone flipped their **** when the first 2 notes of MEGALOVANIA played during the mii wave of Banjo ? A ton of people were happy to see Sans in the game , because it felt sur real for him to be in Smash. It felt sur real , people weren't expecting him to be in Smash any time soon , this was a big surprise.

And when it come to Cuphead , it's kind of similar. The developpers of Cuphead would have loved to see their character in Smash , but even within indies , they were competing with stuff like Minecraft , Shovel Knight , Cave Story , Shantae , ect... Once again , people weren't expecting Cuphead to be playable. It was a very good and well welcomed surprise for the majority.

... Geno wouldn't be a surprise. That's the issue. The surprise was done in Sm4sh. Geno isn't seen as an impossibility or "yeah he's cool , but the competition is too stiff , it would need a miracle" anymore. You're all free to have your own opinion on Geno , but if the lead director wanted the character playable since Brawl and litteraly say "he's a perfect fit for Smash" then he's a viable candidate in my book.
People wouldn't lose their **** in a good way if we got the costume back. We already got it before. Especially since they had a lot of opportunities to bring it back already. Also , no returning third party costume got that treatment as of now , why should Geno be this special snowflake for some reason ?
The whole "Deluxe costume" doesn't work for Geno when I look at who got this treatment. If the costume come back , he'll probably be vastly untouched from Sm4sh.

Honestly , if I would predict 2 deluxe costumes , it would be Freddy Fazbear and Hat Kid.
The first because he's on a similar place as Sans , seen as a big meme and impossibility , but has his games on Nintendo stuff , and would make people flip their ****.
The latter because people love AHIT , it got a Switch release... But the competition is extremely stiff , and the IP is still very fresh. So people would still be very happy to see a Hat kid costume , especially if it come with something like "Your Contract has expired".

I don't want to sound rude , smug , or all knowing... But after looking at the complete situation , I just don't personnaly see Geno coming as a deluxe costume , specifically. The costume can come back , but they have no reason to give that treatment to Geno. If they did it with Geno , then Lloyd , Heihachi , and Monster Hunter should also get it.

---

And to quickly talk about Paper Mario...

This dude would have litteraly 0 difficulties filling a spirit board , music selection , a stage , and a fully unique moveset. SS and CS lack characters for spirits (You have like , what ? Kersti and the Rescue Squad ?) , but 64 , TTYD , and Super have a ton of characters. (Just putting bosses would be more than enough. Heck , COUNT BLECK ISN'T EVEN IN THE BASE GAME.) This isn't Paper Mario's problem , it never has been.

However , as other people said... Not every new Nintendo title mean "The character is 100% coming to Smash". Is it a good help ? Yes. It can help if they want to promote the game. And while the Mario RPGs sell less than the usual Mario... It's still stinkin' Mario on a modern system , it's going to sell well regardless.
Despise how hum... Bad , Sticker Star was , it actually sold several millions. The only PM wich sold badly was CS because it was both on a dying console , and exactly what people didn't wanted a new PM game to be.

Even if Paper Mario isn't in Smash , the game will get good sales regardless. It's a brand new Mario release on the current modern Nintendo system. It's enough for it to sell well.
The goal of promoting a Nintendo character through Smash , is to help games who struggle in comparaison to other releases. FE 3H is far from a flop , but they wanted more than 2 millions copies sold , especially when looking at the other big hitters of the Switch. And well , once again , ARMS isn't a flop , but it lost relevance extremely quickly , and lost most of it's replay value for many.

It honestly feel more logical to promote a more struggling franchise so they can transform this IP into a B or A tier IP , instead of getting 500 000 more copies sold on the new PM game.
Is it possible to choose PM to promote PM TOK ? Yes. Will it happen ? I personnaly doubt it. But you are free to feel otherwise.

 

[G0nard]

ARMS definitely deserves to be in Smash. It was more or less the first original IP for the Switch and the first none Smash Nintendo fighting game in almost 30 years. It's just odd that it's first unless there's something about Pack 6 that they're not sharing or 7 is a big deal. I say this because Season 2 has been available to buy for almost 5 months and Nintendo hasn't done a lot to really convince the typical Smash fan to buy it.

Part of me is still thinking we're getting another splatoon rep as the 7th fighter. What I noticed is that Sakurai stated that he thought he was making "1 or 2" and most likely he thought of 2 characters he wanted to put in and nintendo is like "If that's the case can you add these characters into smash ultimate to premote our up and coming games?"the sliver lining to this is that splatoon has spirits meaning it would generally be good for Geno

 

[Deleted member]

If I recall correctly, I believe I read somewhere that all the Geno insider rumors came out of Nintendo. It makes sense to hear him from Nintendo since he’s a Mario character, but what about Square? Wouldn’t it make sense that a Square source heard anything about Geno as well? Also, I believe Nintendo should definitely keep him a tight secret like Byleth and ARMS. I’m not saying it’s unusual because you can hear things so far in advance and it takes time for stuff to pan out, but how did Geno get so much insider talk quite early even though Nintendo is so good at keeping secrets? Do the sources and employees never stop talking about Geno on social platforms when they heard the word or something?

 

[Polarthief]

In that case, that just brings us back to not actually having any real measurable metric for "levels of excitement" with any given character because every possible number we could bring out is going to have a caveat. It's why I don't think it's useful to throw in whether a reveal was "mixed" or not for the sake of speculation because that's not actually something we can know for sure with any of them outside of Byleth because Nintendo straight up commented on the reaction, and for all we know sales were just as good for them as the rest of the pass, so again it's a moot point.

Almost like you can't measure it, which is what I've been saying from the beginning.

It's also kind of downplaying how big a deal Dragon Quest getting into Smash was both from a legacy standpoint and a fan-requested one.

Again, I was only talking about in the West. Without even looking it up, I'm sure Hero was a massive deal in the East considering how big DQ is over there.

Alright, that’s fair, but people still care about Steve specifically, I guess due to knowing him for a long time and becoming attached to him like me.

Because there's no one else to put an attachment to besides Alex. A Creeper isn't going to be playable.

And there are Minecraft characters with more personality than what Steve and Alex are given in a few videos, animations, art, marketing material and one Lego Club Magazine issue; the Story Mode characters. But no one is asking for them, or at least not most people (I haven’t seen anyone asking for them personally, just suggesting the possibility of Steve getting Jesse as an alt., but they still wanted Steve as the face); they all want Steve with Alex taking up alts (not gonna lie I haven’t even seen anyone suggest Alex with Steve as an alt instead, I think all or most people really want Steve as the face).

Story Mode isn't Minecraft, it's a spin-off that isn't remotely close to the same popularity as Minecraft. If he got in, I'd assume Alex would get 1 or 2 alts with most of them going to the base costumes (like the Tuxedo Mask Steve, Kilt Steve, etc. wouldn't be surprised if a Creeper Steve would be a playable alt too).

we don’t agree with people who say that normally and they just dislike him, no one says “yeah Steve isn’t cool or interesting but he’s all we got.” No, we genuinely care about Steve and want him specifically.

That just honestly surprises me, and I never said I dislike him, just that there's nothing to him. If there was a character, in Minecraft (NOT a spin-off/outside sources like books or movies), that had personality and characteristics, I'd guarantee you they'd become the fan-favorite, in the same way Isabelle from Animal Crossing, being introduced in the 4th game (5th~6th in the East) got in before Tom Nook who has been there since the beginning, and she's barely in the newest one (daily announcements and stuff you rarely mess with), but people really liked her, so she usurped Nook who absolutely would have been next if Isabelle didn't exist. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about with regards to Steve, except Nook actually does have a personality.

If Minecraft started off with a different character that had a bunch of personality or at least to the extent of Mario or somebody, and they were the main dude, then sure, maybe Steve would’ve been forgotten if he was just a temporary dude with nothing, but he’s the one we all got to know, have come to love, the one who’s one of the mascots, and he at least has a little bit of personality according to the Lego Club thing and how he’s used in stuff; people use examples of Steve having personality in official stuff to counter those arguments I’ve mentioned. Most people wouldn’t stop caring about Nintendo’s protagonists that have little to barely any or no personality if, hypothetically, they were suddenly replaced with different but similar characters that were also stated to be different; in fact, a lot of people would be miffed, moreso if they were kept that way for further games after the first one doing it. A lot of us love Mario, Link, Ninten, Ness, etc. And none of us would stop caring about Geno if a hypothetical sequel gave us a different but similar character with even more depth who’s also from Star Road.

Which is totally fine and again, honestly shocked people really care about Steve when it's a fact that he's among the blankest, blandest, most boring characters because there's nothing to him, which still makes me question where the attachment is coming from other than "it's an attachment to Minecraft and he's who you play as". There's nothing wrong with that, nor liking Steve, I just still think the attachment is behind Minecraft. FTR: by no means am I saying he (and Alex) don't deserve a playable spot in Smash.

This is what I'm talking about though. "General public reaction" is a meaningless statement without a way to actually measure it.

So what ways can we measure? View count? Like to dislike ratio (this will generally go in favor of the former for smaller cult followings)? Twitter likes? Retweets? Overall engagement and mentions (keep in mind this combines positive and negative)? Emails sent to Sakurai's cat?

Where does "the most positive reaction" come from? If people have actual statistics, I'd be more than happy to look at them.

Overall, you can't really and that's my original point.

art of me is still thinking we're getting another splatoon rep as the 7th fighter.

Literally why? Octolings with a different moveset? Meh, they should have just been alts of Inkling in base. Unless we're getting a Splatoon 3 reveal this year and a new character/species is going to be a thing in that game, I do not see a new Splatoon rep coming anytime soon.

 

[Enigma735]

To push that image even further...
8 Ice Climbers can play on fountain of dreams. (Well the reflections are disabled but SHHHHHHHH)

---

Also , to put my 2 cents on the whole deluxe mii costume thingie....

I think people don't realize that the characters choosen for that weren't seen as frontrunners , massive fan requests , or huge gaming icons.
Like... Sans , as much as I genuinely love the guy (I watched too many AUs comics) , he's always been considered a big meme in the community , despise having people who genuinely want him.
Did everyone forget how much everyone flipped their **** when the first 2 notes of MEGALOVANIA played during the mii wave of Banjo ? A ton of people were happy to see Sans in the game , because it felt sur real for him to be in Smash. It felt sur real , people weren't expecting him to be in Smash any time soon , this was a big surprise.

And when it come to Cuphead , it's kind of similar. The developpers of Cuphead would have loved to see their character in Smash , but even within indies , they were competing with stuff like Minecraft , Shovel Knight , Cave Story , Shantae , ect... Once again , people weren't expecting Cuphead to be playable. It was a very good and well welcomed surprise for the majority.

... Geno wouldn't be a surprise. That's the issue. The surprise was done in Sm4sh. Geno isn't seen as an impossibility or "yeah he's cool , but the competition is too stiff , it would need a miracle" anymore. You're all free to have your own opinion on Geno , but if the lead director wanted the character playable since Brawl and litteraly say "he's a perfect fit for Smash" then he's a viable candidate in my book.
People wouldn't lose their **** in a good way if we got the costume back. We already got it before. Especially since they had a lot of opportunities to bring it back already. Also , no returning third party costume got that treatment as of now , why should Geno be this special snowflake for some reason ?
The whole "Deluxe costume" doesn't work for Geno when I look at who got this treatment. If the costume come back , he'll probably be vastly untouched from Sm4sh.

Honestly , if I would predict 2 deluxe costumes , it would be Freddy Fazbear and Hat Kid.
The first because he's on a similar place as Sans , seen as a big meme and impossibility , but has his games on Nintendo stuff , and would make people flip their ****.
The latter because people love AHIT , it got a Switch release... But the competition is extremely stiff , and the IP is still very fresh. So people would still be very happy to see a Hat kid costume , especially if it come with something like "Your Contract has expired".

I don't want to sound rude , smug , or all knowing... But after looking at the complete situation , I just don't personnaly see Geno coming as a deluxe costume , specifically. The costume can come back , but they have no reason to give that treatment to Geno. If they did it with Geno , then Lloyd , Heihachi , and Monster Hunter should also get it.

---

And to quickly talk about Paper Mario...

This dude would have litteraly 0 difficulties filling a spirit board , music selection , a stage , and a fully unique moveset. SS and CS lack characters for spirits (You have like , what ? Kersti and the Rescue Squad ?) , but 64 , TTYD , and Super have a ton of characters. (Just putting bosses would be more than enough. Heck , COUNT BLECK ISN'T EVEN IN THE BASE GAME.) This isn't Paper Mario's problem , it never has been.

However , as other people said... Not every new Nintendo title mean "The character is 100% coming to Smash". Is it a good help ? Yes. It can help if they want to promote the game. And while the Mario RPGs sell less than the usual Mario... It's still stinkin' Mario on a modern system , it's going to sell well regardless.
Despise how hum... Bad , Sticker Star was , it actually sold several millions. The only PM wich sold badly was CS because it was both on a dying console , and exactly what people didn't wanted a new PM game to be.

Even if Paper Mario isn't in Smash , the game will get good sales regardless. It's a brand new Mario release on the current modern Nintendo system. It's enough for it to sell well.
The goal of promoting a Nintendo character through Smash , is to help games who struggle in comparaison to other releases. FE 3H is far from a flop , but they wanted more than 2 millions copies sold , especially when looking at the other big hitters of the Switch. And well , once again , ARMS isn't a flop , but it lost relevance extremely quickly , and lost most of it's replay value for many.

It honestly feel more logical to promote a more struggling franchise so they can transform this IP into a B or A tier IP , instead of getting 500 000 more copies sold on the new PM game.
Is it possible to choose PM to promote PM TOK ? Yes. Will it happen ? I personnaly doubt it. But you are free to feel otherwise.

This. The funny thing is is that people who say Geno will return as a Deluxe Mii Outfit almost always have no reason to say why they think that is likely. The only reason some people think he will be a Mii Outfit, specifically a Deluxe, is because "Well, it happened before, so it could happen again". At this point, I see more evidence in favor of Geno being completely playable then him being a Deluxe Mii Outfit.

And I am also guilty of saying Paper Mario might not have enough for a full Fighters Pass, and I probably have to disagree with that sentiment now. As you said, Paper Mario has tons of things they can pull from. But personally, I think SMRPG has so much more to pull from, considering the only SMRPG representation we have in Ultimate are two PNG's. I also don't understand why everyone always thinks a character is 100% getting included because of a new game, because that is rarely a reason why a certain character is chosen. And I seriously doubt Nintendo would want to try to promote a Mario game of all things.

 

[Polarthief]

This. The funny thing is is that people who say Geno will return as a Deluxe Mii Outfit almost always have no reason to say why they think that is likely. The only reason some people think he will be a Mii Outfit, specifically a Deluxe, is because "Well, it happened before, so it could happen again". At this point, I see more evidence in favor of Geno being completely playable then him being a Deluxe Mii Outfit.

Yeah seriously. Like Loliko YnT said, Sans (and Cuphead) were just a surprise to see in Smash to begin with. There was little to no chance either character was gonna be playable. Geno on the other hand has been around since Brawl and has had a massive fan-request, to the point where now he's one of the bigger, and definitely longest-lasting requests. Geno becoming a deluxe costume is barely a consolation prize since he's already been a costume, while Sans and Cuphead, two characters no one in their right mind should have expected, just getting in as a costume is huge. Now if we get a Smash 6, I could see fan requests to put them in as playable, sure (similarly to how Geno was a costume prior), but for the time being, just having them as costumes is still surreal and awesome to see. But doing that to Geno again? Nah. The only people "settling" for that are downplaying his chances or are just straight up detractors (which is why it upsets me so that PapaGenos claims to be 'fine' with that happening).

 

[Loliko YnT]

And I am also guilty of saying Paper Mario might not have enough for a full Fighters Pass, and I probably have to disagree with that sentiment now. As you said, Paper Mario has tons of things they can pull from. But personally, I think SMRPG has so much more to pull from, considering the only SMRPG representation we have in Ultimate are two PNG's.

While I agree with the rest of your message... I still disagree with that part.

While yes , SMRPG got less content in Ultimate's base game (2 spirits) and PM got more (A SS stage , 3 songs I think , and several spirits)... There is still more stuff to pull from because you have 5 PM games , and 1 SMRPG game.

Is there a lot of stuff they could add from SMRPG ? Absolutely. I myself made a fighter pack for Geno , I didn't had trouble finding 16 spirits and around 17 songs , and even mii costumes. SMRPG is in no way lacking in content for a Fighter Pack.

But I also think that the Paper Mario representation is oddly pretty poor. As I said before , we're missing major story villains like Count Bleck as spirits , same for Grodius from TTYD. Of course they can't add everyone , but ignoring these major characters is strange. And then , when we have ton of PM tunes... We get like , a part of Rogueport in a medley , nothing from 64 and Super , a SS medley , and the CS battle theme. Like , not having stuff like the battle fanfare , the Ultimate Show , or even some Koopalings battle theme is just weird.
I don't think it's any evidence pointing toward PM... Because that logic would also work for both SMRPG , and Mario and Luigi. Smash just tend to not give much to the Mario RPGs for some reason.

I just think that it's worse for PM to not have more content in Smash , because it's first party stuff. It wouldn't be hard to add , there is no complications in just adding some music and a few PNGs. At least with SMRPG there is a reason for a lack of content ; SE pretty much own most of the SMRPG stuff baring pre-established Mario characters and locals , and maybe one or two tunes because they're remixes of older Mario music.

---

Just noticed it's my 666th post so uuuuuh...
Satan , could you please add Geno to Smash ? Can we talk this out ?

 

[Polarthief]

Just noticed it's my 666th post so uuuuuh...
Satan , could you please add Geno to Smash ? Can we talk this out ?

I'll gladly give up my soul for Geno and take one for the team. I'm probably going to hell anyway, so why not cash in on that? Lol

 

[Enigma735]

While I agree with the rest of your message... I still disagree with that part.

While yes , SMRPG got less content in Ultimate's base game (2 spirits) and PM got more (A SS stage , 3 songs I think , and several spirits)... There is still more stuff to pull from because you have 5 PM games , and 1 SMRPG game.

Is there a lot of stuff they could add from SMRPG ? Absolutely. I myself made a fighter pack for Geno , I didn't had trouble finding 16 spirits and around 17 songs , and even mii costumes. SMRPG is in no way lacking in content for a Fighter Pack.

But I also think that the Paper Mario representation is oddly pretty poor. As I said before , we're missing major story villains like Count Bleck as spirits , same for Grodius from TTYD. Of course they can't add everyone , but ignoring these major characters is strange. And then , when we have ton of PM tunes... We get like , a part of Rogueport in a medley , nothing from 64 and Super , a SS medley , and the CS battle theme. Like , not having stuff like the battle fanfare , the Ultimate Show , or even some Koopalings battle theme is just weird.
I don't think it's any evidence pointing toward PM... Because that logic would also work for both SMRPG , and Mario and Luigi. Smash just tend to not give much to the Mario RPGs for some reason.

I just think that it's worse for PM to not have more content in Smash , because it's first party stuff. It wouldn't be hard to add , there is no complications in just adding some music and a few PNGs. At least with SMRPG there is a reason for a lack of content ; SE pretty much own most of the SMRPG stuff baring pre-established Mario characters and locals , and maybe one or two tunes because they're remixes of older Mario music.

---

Just noticed it's my 666th post so uuuuuh...
Satan , could you please add Geno to Smash ? Can we talk this out ?

I agree and their could definitely be many things to make for a Paper Mario Fighter Pack. I personally would like Paper Mario if he mostly uses attacks from 64 and TTYD, but if Paper Mario were to use moves from CS and SS, that is when I will be very disappointed with the inclusion.

Yeah seriously. Like Loliko YnT said, Sans (and Cuphead) were just a surprise to see in Smash to begin with. There was little to no chance either character was gonna be playable. Geno on the other hand has been around since Brawl and has had a massive fan-request, to the point where now he's one of the bigger, and definitely longest-lasting requests. Geno becoming a deluxe costume is barely a consolation prize since he's already been a costume, while Sans and Cuphead, two characters no one in their right mind should have expected, just getting in as a costume is huge. Now if we get a Smash 6, I could see fan requests to put them in as playable, sure (similarly to how Geno was a costume prior), but for the time being, just having them as costumes is still surreal and awesome to see. But doing that to Geno again? Nah. The only people "settling" for that are downplaying his chances or are just straight up detractors (which is why it upsets me so that PapaGenos claims to be 'fine' with that happening).

Yeah I hate seeing Papa settling for a Deluxe Outfit. Geno is his most wanted character so I feel he should be at least a little bit hopeful for playable Geno. I have mad respect for him for being optimistic, which is something a lot of Smash fans don't know how to be, but it just sucks seeing him like that. I feel he has to know the evidence in favor of Geno getting playable and I am sure he will be very surprised come June and Geno turns out to be CP7

 

[Polarthief]

I personally would like Paper Mario if he mostly uses attacks from 64 and TTYD, but if Paper Mario were to use moves from CS and SS, that is when I will be very disappointed with the inclusion.

I would say the majority of people in here, myself included, agree with that exact sentiment. I personally wouldn't want to see *anything* from SS/CS because I don't even want to be reminded of those games, even if it's a good move. I would also cringe at seeing the modern white-outline art style if Sakurai went with that for the character designs because it's part of the whole "HAHA PEYPURR" attitude that I hate about modern PM.

I have mad respect for him for being optimistic, which is something a lot of Smash fans don't know how to be, but it just sucks seeing him like that

He's actually being a touch pessimistic regarding Geno, not optimistic. He's just being generally positive, something I never am, haha. We're like total opposites.

I feel he has to know the evidence in favor of Geno getting playable

I'd link him The List™, but I'm sure he probably knows most of it and I don't wanna bug him. I've done that on Twitter enough as it is with some of the stuff I've thought of/realized from here.

 

[Enigma735]

I would say the majority of people in here, myself included, agree with that exact sentiment. I personally wouldn't want to see *anything* from SS/CS because I don't even want to be reminded of those games, even if it's a good move. I would also cringe at seeing the modern white-outline art style if Sakurai went with that for the character designs because it's part of the whole "HAHA PEYPURR" attitude that I hate about modern PM.

Agreed and it would definitely not represent Paper Mario good at all. However, I trust Sakurai in doing PM justice since he is always faithful to the source material and knows what the fans want.

He's actually being a touch pessimistic regarding Geno, not optimistic. He's just being generally positive, something I never am, haha. We're like total opposites.



I'd link him The List™, but I'm sure he probably knows most of it and I don't wanna bug him. I've done that on Twitter enough as it is with some of the stuff I've thought of/realized from here.

Yeah by optimistic I meant that he will settle for anything, which is nice. But I feel he should at least be a bit disappointed, considering he is a Geno supporter and all. However, I guess it makes sense for him to have a positive attitude since he did get 2 out of 3 of his most wanteds. If he were to get Geno, he would certainly be the most luckiest Smash fan out their.

 

[Loliko YnT]

I'll gladly give up my soul for Geno and take one for the team. I'm probably going to hell anyway, so why not cash in on that? Lol

What a chad.

I agree and their could definitely be many things to make for a Paper Mario Fighter Pack. I personally would like Paper Mario if he mostly uses attacks from 64 and TTYD, but if Paper Mario were to use moves from CS and SS, that is when I will be very disappointed with the inclusion.

Yeah I hate seeing Papa settling for a Deluxe Outfit. Geno is his most wanted character so I feel he should be at least a little bit hopeful for playable Geno. I have mad respect for him for being optimistic, which is something a lot of Smash fans don't know how to be, but it just sucks seeing him like that. I feel he has to know the evidence in favor of Geno getting playable and I am sure he will be very surprised come June and Geno turns out to be CP7

I think it's just possible to just... Give him a bit of every game , and he could still be a good fighter. One thing to know is that things cards seem to be gone in TOK , same for badges and cards. It's still lacking FP and BP , but they're in a middle ground now.
Honestly , if PM get in , I either seem him as TOK based , or based around all his games. CS/SS would make him rely on ressources way too much to be fun , and I don't see him pulling out a giant realistic plunger lol. (I don't want to look like I'm farming for Clout or anything , but here is the moveset I made to give you an idea on how a composite PM could be : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1htMeC46wT0DCL5x_8IKLUU93WomMqWF_w2SYXsB_g8c/edit (If mods tell me to take it down , I will.))

I honestly think like you , PapeGenos underestimate the potential for Geno to be DLC. He clearly has enough going for him to be a serious candidate , you don't have that one thing that scream "Yup , it's bad for Geno , like , really bad." too.
I think too many people are jumping ship because he's not seen as "The absolute front runner" anymore. But he doesn't need this title to have a chance.

While I remain cautious , I remain optimistic for Geno. Especially for FP7 and FP8. If he's not here after that , that's when I'll start seriously worrying about him.
But to be blunt , I kind of got the feeling that nobody know what's going to come. We got stinkin' ARMS after all , who was predicting that as FP6 ? And well , this wildness with characters choices , imo , give the edge to Geno. He has serious points against him , but I could totally see Nintendo say "Yeah but we'll pick him anyway." just like how they did with Joker and Banjo.

 

[Enigma735]

I think it's just possible to just... Give him a bit of every game , and he could still be a good fighter. One thing to know is that things cards seem to be gone in TOK , same for badges and cards. It's still lacking FP and BP , but they're in a middle ground now.
Honestly , if PM get in , I either seem him as TOK based , or based around all his games. CS/SS would make him rely on ressources way too much to be fun , and I don't see him pulling out a giant realistic plunger lol. (I don't want to look like I'm farming for Clout or anything , but here is the moveset I made to give you an idea on how a composite PM could be : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1htMeC46wT0DCL5x_8IKLUU93WomMqWF_w2SYXsB_g8c/edit (If mods tell me to take it down , I will.))

Yeah I guess that could work very well for Paper Mario. Sakurai loves equal representation, afterall.

I honestly think like you , PapeGenos underestimate the potential for Geno to be DLC. He clearly has enough going for him to be a serious candidate , you don't have that one thing that scream "Yup , it's bad for Geno , like , really bad." too.
I think too many people are jumping ship because he's not seen as "The absolute front runner" anymore. But he doesn't need this title to have a chance.

While I remain cautious , I remain optimistic for Geno. Especially for FP7 and FP8. If he's not here after that , that's when I'll start seriously worrying about him.
But to be blunt , I kind of got the feeling that nobody know what's going to come. We got stinkin' ARMS after all , who was predicting that as FP6 ? And well , this wildness with characters choices , imo , give the edge to Geno. He has serious points against him , but I could totally see Nintendo say "Yeah but we'll pick him anyway." just like how they did with Joker and Banjo.

Same here. I do think Geno has a great chance and I do think PapaGenos is overlooking the evidence for him. If Geno isn't at least FP7 or FP8, that is when I give up all hope and start accepting he won't get included. Right now though, I am still confident and I do believe he will be either FP7 or FP8.

 

[MattX20]

This is it, the last week of May. Once June starts, we're officially in the potential endgame for both ARMS and Geno speculation

 

[Enigma735]

This is it, the last week of May. Once June starts, we're officially in the potential endgame for both ARMS and Geno speculation

Can't believe we are almost ready for when we finally find out Geno's fate. Here's hoping he is CP7

Edit: Apparently you can't insert fingers-crossed emojis here.

 

[MattX20]

Looks like we might be getting the Metroid Prime Trilogy sooner than we think http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...rilogy_on_switch_says_its_arriving_next_month

 

[Polarthief]

Looks like we might be getting the Metroid Prime Trilogy sooner than we think http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...rilogy_on_switch_says_its_arriving_next_month

I thought we already discussed this. It's the same retailer that claimed it was coming sooner, so there's still gonna be a hefty bit of doubt behind them.

 

[MattX20]

I thought we already discussed this. It's the same retailer that claimed it was coming sooner, so there's still gonna be a hefty bit of doubt behind them.

Oh, I guess I must've missed that discussion.

 

[Polarthief]

Oh, I guess I must've missed that discussion.

I'm being lazy and not going to previous pages; I could be wrong since my short-term memory is absolute garbage, but I could have sworn we talked about it.

I hope it's real, but still a hefty amount of doubt since they've been wrong already.

 

[Let Geno Smash]

Looks like we might be getting the Metroid Prime Trilogy sooner than we think http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...rilogy_on_switch_says_its_arriving_next_month

Nintendo has a policy of announcing games at least 4 weeks before they are released, knowing that I doubt that leak is real

 

[Polarthief]

Nintendo has a policy of announcing games at least 4 weeks before they are released, knowing that I doubt that leak is real

????? What about games that get dropped in a direct and it's like "lul it's out after this direct" or "literally tomorrow"? Also while NSO isn't "new games", they usually get announced like a week or two prior IIRC.

Edit: FTR, I'm not saying it's a for sure anything, literally said in my last post I doubt the complete legitimacy of it. I just don't agree with what you're saying.

 

[Zem-raj]

Looks like we might be getting the Metroid Prime Trilogy sooner than we think http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...rilogy_on_switch_says_its_arriving_next_month

Metroid Samus Returns was revealed 2 months before its release with minimal promotion and on a dying console, that was bad.

I doubt they'd release Metroid Prime Trilogy HD in the next few weeks, with a shorter reveal to release period than Metroid Samus Returns.

 

[axel_]

Y'know, now that Cthulhu is in Smite I have a good feeling that June is gonna be a good month for the impossible to happen.

"Bleeehhhh muh Spirits"

Ẅ̶̝́ẽ̴̲ ̶̫̟̹̦̈̓͂̉s̶̡͍̒̈́͋̾h̶̨͍͉̤͑̀̉͊a̸̼͕̅͒̐l̴̡̫̱͊͜ḻ̸̄̎͌͌ ̷̢̏͗̚s̶̥̱͒̈́̎̆e̶̪͂ė̶͇̺̖̓̑̍,̸̡̩̜̼̃̐ ̴̡̤̭̮̀ṁ̴͇͎̲̗͊ȯ̶̢r̴̗̔͑̑t̶͓͕̘̓ä̸̪͕́͘l̶̩̥͇̋.̸̛͓̇

 

[a random user]

????? What about games that get dropped in a direct and it's like "lul it's out after this direct" or "literally tomorrow"? Also while NSO isn't "new games", they usually get announced like a week or two prior IIRC.

Edit: FTR, I'm not saying it's a for sure anything, literally said in my last post I doubt the complete legitimacy of it. I just don't agree with what you're saying.

that works for download only games, but psychical games need more time, so retailors can take pre orders, which are then used to gauge interest so they have an idea for how many copies they want to order, not to mention other logistic things, like manufacturing/shipping copies out without them leaking

 

[Polarthief]

that works for download only games, but psychical games need more time, so retailors can take pre orders, which are then used to gauge interest so they have an idea for how many copies they want to order, not to mention other logistic things, like manufacturing/shipping copies out without them leaking

Oh okay, fair enough. I wasn't thinking about specifically physical, I was just thinking "games in general".

 

[MarioTime]

Guys I just got a word from a Nintendo insider and they told me that the Smash Team tried to make a spirit to a playable fighter and their Nintendo Switch exploded, guess we lost