Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Firox]

I'm imagining this situation in which Square Enix posts the Geno trailer to Twitter, and I miss it entirely because I don't follow them.

Same. Watch it be weeks before we even realize that he was unveiled. I'll hop on to fight an online tournament one day and notice that half the competitors are playing Geno.

(Spits drink all over TV) "What the...."

 

[Polarthief]

Nintendo giving third parties the okay to reveal things whenever they want until further notice is weirdly good because it adds even more evidence to the statement that whatever third party characters were originally going to be shown at E3 are likely to be this summer anyways. For example, if 7 and 8 were planned to be shown this summer before Covid-19, it's more or less confirmed that they're still going to happen whether you support my friend's theory about third party companies deciding when third party characters are revealed or not. For example, 8 could literally just be a shadow drop if their respective company simply wants to do that.

Inb4 Square drops an SMRPG remake.
Detractors: "B-BUT THIS DOESN'T MEAN GENO'S COMING!"

I'm imagining this situation in which Square Enix posts the Geno trailer to Twitter, and I miss it entirely because I don't follow them.

I doubt they'd have authority to drop Smash-related news, even if they own the character. Smash is still Nintendo's IP.
Detractors: "SQUARE SHOWED THE CHARACTER, NOT NINTENDO! HE'S NOT CONFIRMED YET!"

 

[Firox]

I doubt they'd have authority to drop Smash-related news, even if they own the character. Smash is still Nintendo's IP.
Detractors: "SQUARE SHOWED THE CHARACTER, NOT NINTENDO! HE'S NOT CONFIRMED YET!"

You know, I was thinking about it and even if SE had the authority to drop Smash news about Geno, I feel people flat out wouldn't believe it if it didn't come from Nintendo. People would straight up think it was a prank or something.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

I'm imagining this situation in which Square Enix posts the Geno trailer to Twitter, and I miss it entirely because I don't follow them.

I remember when i watched the November Direct in 2015, but i stopped because i lost interest.

You can imagine my shock when i went to Smash 4's website and saw Cloud.

Same thing happened on the VGA, but this time i feel justified in doing so because i wasn't gonna stay upt to 2AM for a mediocre even that may or may not have a character reveal that interests me. Seeing how Joker got revealed (and how th 2019 VGA's went) i can safely say i did the right choice.

 

[Loliko YnT]

Inb4 Square drops an SMRPG remake.
Detractors: "B-BUT THIS DOESN'T MEAN GENO'S COMING!"



I doubt they'd have authority to drop Smash-related news, even if they own the character. Smash is still Nintendo's IP.
Detractors: "SQUARE SHOWED THE CHARACTER, NOT NINTENDO! HE'S NOT CONFIRMED YET!"

...
To be honest , detractors are still at the level of :
"He has no unique moveset potential because "
"His popularity is overblowned , fan polls doesn't mean much , smashboards is an echo chamber , it's just a random PM mod , ect..."
"Sakurai probably got over-influenced , he didn't meant that Geno was this popular , and he probably doesn't truly think Geno has moveset potential , that's why he's a costume."
"His costume didn't came back , it probably sold horribly , and they wanted to focus on the Enix side of Dragon Quest. SE is super stingy about the rights of their character after all."

I wish I was joking.
But I was horribly amazed at people telling me "Oh yeah Sakurai lied , lol"

 

[Firox]

...
To be honest , detractors are still at the level of :
"He has no unique moveset potential because "
"His popularity is overblowned , fan polls doesn't mean much , smashboards is an echo chamber , it's just a random PM mod , ect..."
"Sakurai probably got over-influenced , he didn't meant that Geno was this popular , and he probably doesn't truly think Geno has moveset potential , that's why he's a costume."
"His costume didn't came back , it probably sold horribly , and they wanted to focus on the Enix side of Dragon Quest. SE is super stingy about the rights of their character after all."

I wish I was joking.
But I was horribly amazed at people telling me "Oh yeah Sakurai lied , lol"

I mean, to this day, I still can't believe how much people underestimate the significance of Geno's Mii costume missing. The costume ALREADY existed. If Nintendo wanted some free $, all they had to do was re-release it. ZERO effort to get a reward. There is literally no logical reason not to unless there was something else at play here with the DLC. And people can't give me the piss poor excuse "Oh, but maybe Nintendo couldn't get the rights!" They've got Geno's spirit and spirit battle already in the game. They've got the rights, or at least as much as they would need to re-release a costume they already had. That leaves only two options:

A) Geno's in, baby

or

B) We're getting at least one other SE rep with the costume returning, possibly upgraded from Sm4sh.

PERIOD. That's it. Just these two possibilities at this point. However, both Nintendo and Sakurai have publically acknowledged both Geno and his demand. This is fact. For them to recognize this and STILL give Geno the shaft would be both incredibly tone-deaf and frankly punch a hole in their public integrity since it would make their acknowledgements ring hollow. Fortunately, Smash Ultimate has sent a powerful message that the fans have been heard, at least for the most part. Sure, there have been some bad calls with a couple of the design features (glares at online) but look at how many things have been addressed mechanically that people had been begging for since Brawl. Look at the roster of fan service from Ridley and K Rool to Banjo and "Everyone is here!" If ever there was an ultimate chance to hear the fans, this is it. Something tells me the best is yet to come....

 

[Lord Woomy]

But I was horribly amazed at people telling me "Oh yeah Sakurai lied , lol"

"Okay guys, now that the Grinch Leak was proven fake, can we please take everything Sakurai says at face value? If we had, it never would've gotten this bad."

"Of course Sakurai lied about liking Geno in 2015! He was just trying to calm down the toxic Geno supporters, nothing to see here! Quit holding on to this interview, it means nothing and Sakurai didn't mean what he said. Also, that quote about characters being modern and recognizable from the Terry presentation means literally nothing because Geno is still stupid dumb irrelevant puppet!!!"

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, to this day, I still can't believe how much people underestimate the significance of Geno's Mii costume missing. The costume ALREADY existed. If Nintendo wanted some free $, all they had to do was re-release it. ZERO effort to get a reward. There is literally no logical reason not to unless there was something else at play here with the DLC. And people can't give me the piss poor excuse "Oh, but maybe Nintendo couldn't get the rights!" They've got Geno's spirit and spirit battle already in the game. They've got the rights, or at least as much as they would need to re-release a costume they already had.

Licensing doesn't work that way. You get whatever content is agreed upon. Previous games do not matter by default. In fact, you need to license stuff to use it in another game nearly every time.

Remember, it did not show up in base game. This means it obviously was not licensed at the same time for Smash Ultimate base game when it was licensed for Smash 4's DLC. In addition, we blatantly see that all 3rd Party Costumes are DLC only. DLC was not planned to be in Ultimate from the start. That came up quite a bit later. There's really no timeline where the 3rd party Costumes were "obviously meant for base", because nothing adds up to that.

Sakurai getting a spirit just means he got a spirit. And the spirit battle means he got a spirit battle. That's literally all it means. You talk about free money, but Sakurai has to re-license usage of the costume in a different game. Just like he has re-license every 3rd party content in a different game. Consider the fact that some 3rd party AT's got cut too from Ultimate. That means that they did not agree to bring it back. In this case, a MegaMan AT didn't come back. Why? Cause the new licensing didn't agree to bring that AT back. That's how licensing goes. New products requires new licenses. Geno's costume has to be licensed again to be used in Ultimate.

It does feel strange it didn't appear with Banjo/Terry/Byleth, yes. I agree on that, but that's the only strange part to begin with. Just what is going on? Is it really cut(cause it was never re-licensed?). We also don't know when DLC started to be licensed. Most likely it was licensed after the Spirits, so Geno's costume would've been realistically licensed at a different time. Since that fits development more realistically. Geno/Mallow's Spirit stuff was probably licensed(for base game content specifically) at the same time as Final Fantasy stuff too. Since it's SE licenses in general. It's quite possible DLC was considered well after the Spirits were decided upon, or shortly after. There's not exactly a lot of good reasons to believe Sakurai tried to get any 3rd party costumes for base at this point. It literally points the opposite direction.

 

[Lord Woomy]

I mean, to this day, I still can't believe how much people underestimate the significance of Geno's Mii costume missing. The costume ALREADY existed. If Nintendo wanted some free $, all they had to do was re-release it. ZERO effort to get a reward. There is literally no logical reason not to unless there was something else at play here with the DLC. And people can't give me the piss poor excuse "Oh, but maybe Nintendo couldn't get the rights!" They've got Geno's spirit and spirit battle already in the game. They've got the rights, or at least as much as they would need to re-release a costume they already had. That leaves only two options:

A) Geno's in, baby

or

B) We're getting at least one other SE rep with the costume returning, possibly upgraded from Sm4sh.

PERIOD. That's it. Just these two possibilities at this point. However, both Nintendo and Sakurai have publically acknowledged both Geno and his demand. This is fact. For them to recognize this and STILL give Geno the shaft would be both incredibly tone-deaf and frankly punch a hole in their public integrity since it would make their acknowledgements ring hollow. Fortunately, Smash Ultimate has sent a powerful message that the fans have been heard, at least for the most part. Sure, there have been some bad calls with a couple of the design features (glares at online) but look at how many things have been addressed mechanically that people had been begging for since Brawl. Look at the roster of fan service from Ridley and K Rool to Banjo and "Everyone is here!" If ever there was an ultimate chance to hear the fans, this is it. Something tells me the best is yet to come....

Me getting ready to write a full length essay about how Geno's missing Mii costume actually means nothing by completely ignoring Occam's Razor and trying to jump through as many hoops as I can to make it seem like nothing.

 

[Droodle]

I mean, to this day, I still can't believe how much people underestimate the significance of Geno's Mii costume missing. The costume ALREADY existed. If Nintendo wanted some free $, all they had to do was re-release it. ZERO effort to get a reward. There is literally no logical reason not to unless there was something else at play here with the DLC. And people can't give me the piss poor excuse "Oh, but maybe Nintendo couldn't get the rights!" They've got Geno's spirit and spirit battle already in the game. They've got the rights, or at least as much as they would need to re-release a costume they already had. That leaves only two options:

A) Geno's in, baby

or

B) We're getting at least one other SE rep with the costume returning, possibly upgraded from Sm4sh.

PERIOD. That's it. Just these two possibilities at this point. However, both Nintendo and Sakurai have publically acknowledged both Geno and his demand. This is fact. For them to recognize this and STILL give Geno the shaft would be both incredibly tone-deaf and frankly punch a hole in their public integrity since it would make their acknowledgements ring hollow. Fortunately, Smash Ultimate has sent a powerful message that the fans have been heard, at least for the most part. Sure, there have been some bad calls with a couple of the design features (glares at online) but look at how many things have been addressed mechanically that people had been begging for since Brawl. Look at the roster of fan service from Ridley and K Rool to Banjo and "Everyone is here!" If ever there was an ultimate chance to hear the fans, this is it. Something tells me the best is yet to come....

I mean there is one more possibility, the costume returns BUT with an entirely unrelated fighter from an entirely different company. So far, both Byleth and Banjo have had completely different costumes unrelated to their series; so it's safe to say Banjo wasn't an exception like so many touted him being when those costumes were first revealed.

Sure, a lot of people say that "Square would never do that", but they haven't really given any evidence aside from "They like to have their own content come with fighters". A ton of people were also saying that for Trials of Mana representation in Smash too, but in the end we got them for free around the time the game came out.

That leads me to believe:
A) Square isn't a huge stickler for pairing their "content" with fighters as much as people here like to claim they are (at least for their smaller series).
B) They are willing to let their content align with upcoming releases, even if they are not the center of attention (essentially advertisement even if they do not get the fighter).

For example, it's totally possible we see Geno/Chocobo costumes return in the ARMS presentation, and then a day later they announce that FF6 and SMRPG are coming to the Switch SNES games. Now I would still say the 2 possibilities you listed are definitely more likely, but this scenario is definitely possible as well. Obviously it's still possible to get a playable Geno/FF character and have the exact same thing happen too.

That said, it's going to be pretty interesting seeing the upcoming "post-virus E3 announcements". Typically speaking, Nintendo likes to keep their good stuff saved for E3. I think it's pretty likely that we'll end up getting some of the more requested SNES games come to Switch Online as a announcement. It'll be interesting to see if we end up getting a potential SMRPG appearance.

With that said, how would you all feel if ARMS gets a presentation earlier in the month, and we also get to see character 7 (who is not a Square Fighter at all). Then a week later, Nintendo announces that SMRPG is coming to SNES online. The costume hasn't returned, and a playable Geno is not in sight (at least for 7). This is a purely hypothetical scenario, but would you feel more confident/less confident in his chances?

 

[pinshadow]

Licensing doesn't work that way. You get whatever content is agreed upon. Previous games do not matter by default. In fact, you need to license stuff to use it in another game nearly every time.

Remember, it did not show up in base game. This means it obviously was not licensed at the same time for Smash Ultimate base game when it was licensed for Smash 4's DLC. In addition, we blatantly see that all 3rd Party Costumes are DLC only. DLC was not planned to be in Ultimate from the start. That came up quite a bit later. There's really no timeline where the 3rd party Costumes were "obviously meant for base", because nothing adds up to that.

Sakurai getting a spirit just means he got a spirit. And the spirit battle means he got a spirit battle. That's literally all it means. You talk about free money, but Sakurai has to re-license usage of the costume in a different game. Just like he has re-license every 3rd party content in a different game. Consider the fact that some 3rd party AT's got cut too from Ultimate. That means that they did not agree to bring it back. In this case, a MegaMan AT didn't come back. Why? Cause the new licensing didn't agree to bring that AT back. That's how licensing goes. New products requires new licenses. Geno's costume has to be licensed again to be used in Ultimate.

It does feel strange it didn't appear with Banjo/Terry/Byleth, yes. I agree on that, but that's the only strange part to begin with. Just what is going on? Is it really cut(cause it was never re-licensed?). We also don't know when DLC started to be licensed. Most likely it was licensed after the Spirits, so Geno's costume would've been realistically licensed at a different time. Since that fits development more realistically. Geno/Mallow's Spirit stuff was probably licensed(for base game content specifically) at the same time as Final Fantasy stuff too. Since it's SE licenses in general. It's quite possible DLC was considered well after the Spirits were decided upon, or shortly after. There's not exactly a lot of good reasons to believe Sakurai tried to get any 3rd party costumes for base at this point. It literally points the opposite direction.

And he wouldn't try to get Geno's costume back why exactly? If he cared enough to get him and Mallow as spirits in the base game, surely he would have tried to get the costume back given he included it as a consolation prize for Geno fans in the first place? Square has no reason to refuse, again, it's free money for them.

 

[Firox]

Remember, it did not show up in base game. This means it obviously was not licensed at the same time for Smash Ultimate base game when it was licensed for Smash 4's DLC. In addition, we blatantly see that all 3rd Party Costumes are DLC only. DLC was not planned to be in Ultimate from the start.

Huh, I didn't realize that all 3rd party costumes were DLC only. That's an interesting factor to consider. One thing I will point out though is that the claim "DLC was not planned to be in Ultimate from the start" is an assumption. Granted, FP#2 seems to have hinged on the success of FP#1, however, to my knowledge, there is no evidence to support that Nintendo wasn't planning to milk the game with DLC from the start, especially after how successful Sm4sh's DLC was. Also consider that Piranha Plant was intended for base game but was added as DLC due to time constraints. It's entirely possible that they expected additional content to simply be DLC/patched in at a later time.

I mean there is one more possibility, the costume returns BUT with an entirely unrelated fighter from an entirely different company. So far, both Byleth and Banjo have had completely different costumes unrelated to their series; so it's safe to say Banjo wasn't an exception like so many touted him being when those costumes were first revealed.

Sure, a lot of people say that "Square would never do that", but they haven't really given any evidence aside from "They like to have their own content come with fighters". A ton of people were also saying that for Trials of Mana representation in Smash too, but in the end we got them for free around the time the game came out.

This is a good point. I forgot about the fact that the costume technically doesn't have to come with an SE rep specifically, however, considering that the chocobo hat is also still MIA, I'm definitely thinking an SE rep is more likely than not.

 

[Enigma735]

I mean, to this day, I still can't believe how much people underestimate the significance of Geno's Mii costume missing. The costume ALREADY existed. If Nintendo wanted some free $, all they had to do was re-release it. ZERO effort to get a reward. There is literally no logical reason not to unless there was something else at play here with the DLC. And people can't give me the piss poor excuse "Oh, but maybe Nintendo couldn't get the rights!" They've got Geno's spirit and spirit battle already in the game. They've got the rights, or at least as much as they would need to re-release a costume they already had. That leaves only two options:

A) Geno's in, baby

or

B) We're getting at least one other SE rep with the costume returning, possibly upgraded from Sm4sh.

PERIOD. That's it. Just these two possibilities at this point. However, both Nintendo and Sakurai have publically acknowledged both Geno and his demand. This is fact. For them to recognize this and STILL give Geno the shaft would be both incredibly tone-deaf and frankly punch a hole in their public integrity since it would make their acknowledgements ring hollow. Fortunately, Smash Ultimate has sent a powerful message that the fans have been heard, at least for the most part. Sure, there have been some bad calls with a couple of the design features (glares at online) but look at how many things have been addressed mechanically that people had been begging for since Brawl. Look at the roster of fan service from Ridley and K Rool to Banjo and "Everyone is here!" If ever there was an ultimate chance to hear the fans, this is it. Something tells me the best is yet to come....

This. Very much this. I really think the lack of the Geno outfit and the Namco outfits from Sm4sh are by far the weirdest outfit absences. Geno is one of the most requested characters that people have wanted to see for years, and the fact that Geno didn't come back with Hero, who would have fit the theme of Square Enix, or Banjo, who would have fit the theme of long-awaited fan requests, is pretty notable. Considering these outfits were planned before Nintendo planned additional DLC, I think its possible they held off on this outfit for a reason, as well as the other Namco outfits

 

[TriggerX]

And he wouldn't try to get Geno's costume back why exactly? If he cared enough to get him and Mallow as spirits in the base game, surely he would have tried to get the costume back given he included it as a consolation prize for Geno fans in the first place? Square has no reason to refuse, again, it's free money for them.

It all comes down to money. There’s a reason why these companies negotiate and overall if Nintendo won’t meet square’s pricing point, then the content goes unused.
No one knows how contracts even differ from spirits/ assists/ playables. There may be a pricing difference and there may not.

So yea the reason would most likely be money, but it’s not just free money for square.

Contracts /Licensing are most likely renewed from game to game so it doesn’t really matter if it existed before. They still have to abide by whatever agreement was made.

 

[Deleted member]

What this about a Smash Direct?

Oh it’s just speculation never mind.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Okay, I think I misread the DLC was later on bit from an old article. Re-looking at the only related article, I'm not finding it. So I probably just read it wrong. My bad.

Either way, it's clear re-licensing happened as is, so I doubt everything was licensed at once. I can't find the original PP article, but I do remember them speaking on "deciding on spirits later on" specifically(which I may have misremembered the article's exact wording), which puts into doubt they licensed Cloud and Geno himself at the same time. Keep in mind it's pretty easy to license Cloud for use, and then re-negotiated changing a trophy into a Spirit as well. For the most part, all that would happen is what money is paid, and in that case, it could've easily meant they needed no extra money and got the Geno/Mallow spirits in as well to make the costs about equal. Which is one way to negotiate.

 

[TriggerX]

Although it breaks pattern, it would make sense to have a Geno mii costume come back with Paper Mario as playable and the red shell hat.

Although that game I believe drops in July so I kind of look at that scenario as unlikely

 

[Deleted member]

Although it breaks pattern, it would make sense to have a Geno mii costume come back with Paper Mario as playable and the red shell hat.

Although that game I believe drops in July so I kind of look at that scenario as unlikely

Thing about Paper Mario is that Nintendo fully owns him, no questions asked, full stop. He's been around since 2001 and has the potential to be a full, unique fighter, especially after Thousand Year Door... but they haven't bothered putting him in yet. It's a bold statement for me to make, but Paper Mario seems to be in an honest-to-God "if they wanted him in, he would be in by now" situation - there would have been no reason to not add him to Brawl or Smash 4, or even as DLC in Smash 4 if they really felt the need to shill Color Splash or try to boost interest in Sticker Star, and the same goes for Ultimate's base roster, or even as a shill in Byleth's place that would have been much better accepted.

If he gets in now as the only DLC Mario rep and comes with Geno's costume, then the writing is on the walls that someone at Nintendo or Square hates the idea of adding Geno to Smash and they just won't let it happen. I think that for the purposes of Smash, he's considered the same character as Mario, yet doesn't embody what Mario represents for his own franchise - which is why we don't have Mario with any hammer moves as much as people clamor for it, despite the inclusion of his hammer in 100% Nintendo owned properties like Mario and Luigi. Mario is designed to be quick, easy to pick up, and frankly, easy to master, just like the platformers he's known for. To have his visage attached to a complex character would be against his design philosophy.

 

[Deleted member]

Geno is in baby hopefully we’ll be saying this soon woo!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Thing about Paper Mario is that Nintendo fully owns him, no questions asked, full stop. He's been around since 2001 and has the potential to be a full, unique fighter, especially after Thousand Year Door... but they haven't bothered putting him in yet. It's a bold statement for me to make, but Paper Mario seems to be in an honest-to-God "if they wanted him in, he would be in by now" situation - there would have been no reason to not add him to Brawl or Smash 4, or even as DLC in Smash 4 if they really felt the need to shill Color Splash or try to boost interest in Sticker Star, and the same goes for Ultimate's base roster, or even as a shill in Byleth's place that would have been much better accepted.

...So when was Nintendo choosing the DLC outside of a little of Smash 4(Corrin and maybe Bayonetta) and this game?

There wasn't "multiple chances" in that regard. Sakurai was the one choosing the characters. This is the first set of DLC where Nintendo is incharge of who is getting in(and arguably a little of Smash 4). They didn't choose the base Ultimate roster either.

So I don't see how this really matters.

-------------------

I forgot to comment on the PP part.

We don't know if it was ever base. That's an assumption based mainly upon conjecture. The Palutena's Guidance could've been a late thing, during PP's work, but well before Joker started work on. PP is fairly unique, and we found data at least 6 months beforehand. It's very easy, once it was decided to be DLC(whether it was base or not at any point doesn't change this factor), to have the voices done for that. The recordings could've been done during any time during that 3 year span, so it doesn't give us any real information on what to expect. Also keep in mind the DLC wasn't finalized till November 2019. Sakurai wouldn't have given only half the DLC messages, so only PP got its own anyway.

I've heard the Classic Mode thing with Greninja, and it's not really convincing. Yes, it's strange there's only one Grass guy, but they didn't throw in Pikmin & Olimar either, or anyone who barely resembles plants like Peach either. The idea they changed it and removed PP doesn't hold much water, since it would've been just as easy to change it to add more but remove PP. It goes both ways.

The amiibo is newer one brought up, but it actually shows it was meant as DLC as is at that point. The character's amiibo is listed after all the other characters, including Richter, and right before Joker. Whatever was decided was based upon a DLC factor at that point. It coming out early doesn't mean much. Not all amiibo take the same time to make, not with licensing factors involved.

The missing data, which is within the list of newcomers, is the only thing remotely leading to it, and it clashes heavily with the amiibo's listing too. Both are listed differently. It may not have been PP data. It could be scrapped data like a Proof of Concept for Hero, which is odd to be in the game, but that's why it was removed. Do note I don't think it was likely Hero. But it wasn't definitely PP either.

There's nothing really for Spirits that's legitimate evidence either. None of the spirits are missing/removed for PP. And any Plant could evolve into Petey Piranha, nor are half all Spirits super logical or doing perfect research. Masked Man had the wrong sprite, fanart. I doubt they cared that much who could evolve into Petey at that point. It's a Plant. Besides that, Petey is summoned by PP as a Final Smash, so they weren't even treated as close to related either way. A lot of the evolutions work fine, but there's some details that are strange and don't work anyway. Realistically, Petey would've been separate and not evolve from Nipper Plant if it was that important that regular Piranha Plant was involved. It doesn't really imply some kind of spirit switch. It's more "Sakurai's crew chose it and made it work in a fun way that isn't perfectly logical". In fact, the Absolute Safety Capsule is perhaps the funniest one of all. It's the empty version, but considering they didn't even know who was Masked Man's correct sprite, they probably were treating that as a joke to represent Porky as is, not to say "he's missing". They're error prone. There's also no real evidence Sakurai removed any spirits either from the final one, as that was just something that people thought was the case(though to be fair, I misread it to be the case too, so some of that was from me). Obviously some did have to be removed for licensing issues, but that's kind of it. But otherwise, there's no real reason to believe we had a PP spirit removed from the total either because of DLC.

So basically, only the "missing data" is legitimate evidence, and being characters were worked on in different orders, not based upon reveal order specifically, We don't know enough of the development period where the missing data is relevant either. It might've been a placeholder while PP was being figured out. It doesn't necessarily mean it was ever intended for base. There's extremely loose information at this point even with that data in mind.

 

[Sigran101]

I just hope the actual Twitter post is the announcement of a Sakurai video and not the smash announcement itself. Based on how they've done it so far I can totally see them just posting on Twitter "Geno joins Super Smash Bros Ultimate as part of character pack 7!" And then the actual trailer debuts underneath the spoiler.

 

[Deleted member]

Considering we’re just getting shadow drops for the next couple of months maybe for the rest of the year.
I guess they could announce Geno in that way on Twitter but hopefully we do get the announcement of his trailer with the presentation announced beforehan.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think the Twitter will just announce the Presentation on Youtube. Like usual.

Now, the real question is if the presentation will announce Challenger Pack 7 or if we'll have to wait a bit longer.

 

[Loliko YnT]

I highly doubt a litteral shadow drop of a smash character.
I could see easily the trailer be livestreamed , tho.

And one thing to know about the costume ;
If Nintendo is fine with pretty much EVERY THIRD PARTY COSTUME coming back... Well why not Geno ? It's not like SE has any reason to say no , or any reason to overprice him ; whenever SE was asked for Geno , the usually said yes. And well , it's not like a Geno costume would take that much time to make from scratch , his design is fairly simple...
So the answer is that... Sakurai/Nintendo didn't asked for the costume. And well , seeing as they're the one who pick the characters , it's a bit suspicious...

 

[Polarthief]

I just hope the actual Twitter post is the announcement of a Sakurai video and not the smash announcement itself. Based on how they've done it so far I can totally see them just posting on Twitter "Geno joins Super Smash Bros Ultimate as part of character pack 7!" And then the actual trailer debuts underneath the spoiler.

I'd really hope they have better tact than that and would wait a day before posting "IT'S GENO LUL". It does suck they pull that crap with normal directs, but those are announced ahead of time to avoid potential spoilers.

A much better way to do it would be: "AND ____ IS THE FIGHTER FOR CHALLENGER PACK 7!" and the Twitter thumbnail could be a non-spoiler. That'd be nice.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I highly doubt a litteral shadow drop of a smash character.
I could see easily the trailer be livestreamed , tho.

And one thing to know about the costume ;
If Nintendo is fine with pretty much EVERY THIRD PARTY COSTUME coming back... Well why not Geno ? It's not like SE has any reason to say no , or any reason to overprice him ; whenever SE was asked for Geno , the usually said yes. And well , it's not like a Geno costume would take that much time to make from scratch , his design is fairly simple...
So the answer is that... Sakurai/Nintendo didn't asked for the costume. And well , seeing as they're the one who pick the characters , it's a bit suspicious...

I'm guessing you missed the fact a lot of costumes are still missing. So just Geno missing isn't the only thing to think on. They had a lot not in the FP1.

Hell, there's a pretty good chance some didn't get licensed till FP2 as well. Who knows. We have nothing to suggest they were all licensed for FP1 either. Especially since FP2 was something they decided upon later.

----------------------

BTW, the article on Source Gaming is fully up and translated. These 6 are the only characters coming and there's no plans for others. The game is finalized with them.

https://sourcegaming.info/2020/03/09/this-is-my-role-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-598/

"Firstly, the contents of these 6 DLC sets has already been decided. Secondly, there are no plans to make more beyond this. In other words, after we finish putting all our effort into these, work on Smash Bros Ultimate will finally be finished."

It's safe to say bonus fighters aren't coming beyond PP. Unlike the first pass, he didn't really go into "will be finished" either. He only said no plans. So... any rumors about bonus stuff are dead, really.

 

[Polarthief]

I'm guessing you missed the fact a lot of costumes are still missing. So just Geno missing isn't the only thing to think on. They had a lot not in the FP1.

Hell, there's a pretty good chance some didn't get licensed till FP2 as well. Who knows. We have nothing to suggest they were all licensed for FP1 either. Especially since FP2 was something they decided upon later.

----------------------

BTW, the article on Source Gaming is fully up and translated. These 6 are the only characters coming and there's no plans for others. The game is finalized with them.

https://sourcegaming.info/2020/03/09/this-is-my-role-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-598/

"Firstly, the contents of these 6 DLC sets has already been decided. Secondly, there are no plans to make more beyond this. In other words, after we finish putting all our effort into these, work on Smash Bros Ultimate will finally be finished."

It's safe to say bonus fighters aren't coming beyond PP. Unlike the first pass, he didn't really go into "will be finished" either. He only said no plans. So... any rumors about bonus stuff are dead, really.

Oof, this is kinda scary then for some characters. It's now or never, 5 slots left!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oof, this is kinda scary then for some characters. It's now or never, 5 slots left!

Yep. But that also means each one will be a jam-filled pack~

And I'm good with that. I won't ever get my most wanted(well, best I can hope for is a spirit event thanks to a remake, and that's got no chance in hell either, heh), but there's still a lot of neat options available.

 

[MattX20]

I'm guessing you missed the fact a lot of costumes are still missing. So just Geno missing isn't the only thing to think on. They had a lot not in the FP1.

Hell, there's a pretty good chance some didn't get licensed till FP2 as well. Who knows. We have nothing to suggest they were all licensed for FP1 either. Especially since FP2 was something they decided upon later.

----------------------

BTW, the article on Source Gaming is fully up and translated. These 6 are the only characters coming and there's no plans for others. The game is finalized with them.

https://sourcegaming.info/2020/03/09/this-is-my-role-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-598/

"Firstly, the contents of these 6 DLC sets has already been decided. Secondly, there are no plans to make more beyond this. In other words, after we finish putting all our effort into these, work on Smash Bros Ultimate will finally be finished."

It's safe to say bonus fighters aren't coming beyond PP. Unlike the first pass, he didn't really go into "will be finished" either. He only said no plans. So... any rumors about bonus stuff are dead, really.

There are only 6 3rd party Mii Costumes and a hat left from Smash 4. The chocobo hat, Geno, Lloyd, Heihachi, Gil, and two Monster Hunter costumes. Personally, I'm thinking both Geno and Lloyd will be upgraded to fully playable status, and the remaining ones will come in different waves

 

[Polarthief]

Yep. But that also means each one will be a jam-filled pack~

And I'm good with that. I won't ever get my most wanted(well, best I can hope for is a spirit event thanks to a remake, and that's got no chance in hell either, heh), but there's still a lot of neat options available.

I'm not worried about Geno, HE'S GONNA BE IN.

As for the others, I do hope they're neato and characters I like, but as I've said, as long as I get Geno, we can get Stupid Dumb Idiot Bad ARMS rep + 4 Urshifus and I'll be happy.

Personally, I'm thinking both Geno and Lloyd will be upgraded to fully playable status, and the remaining ones will come in different waves

If we're getting a Namco rep, I'll be pretty happy since it'll be Lloyd (my #5 excluding BK) or Heihachi (who I don't really care about but he still looks neat), so that'd be awesome. Honestly though, it feels like a safe bet to assume one of the two. Namco having one rep feels so incredibly weird considering they're a major contribution to Smash, right?


At this point though, I am scared Nintendo will pull a Nintendo and be like "haha Modern Pap Mayo gets in instead of Geno", so not only would I lose Geno, but my #2 pick would also be horribly tainted to become a shill rep. I really do fear that possibility because Nintendo has been pulling some serious Nintendo things lately, and it's upsetting as hell.

 

[MattX20]

I'm not worried about Geno, HE'S GONNA BE IN.

As for the others, I do hope they're neato and characters I like, but as I've said, as long as I get Geno, we can get Stupid Dumb Idiot Bad ARMS rep + 4 Urshifus and I'll be happy.



If we're getting a Namco rep, I'll be pretty happy since it'll be Lloyd (my #5 excluding BK) or Heihachi (who I don't really care about but he still looks neat), so that'd be awesome. Honestly though, it feels like a safe bet to assume one of the two. Namco having one rep feels so incredibly weird considering they're a major contribution to Smash, right?


At this point though, I am scared Nintendo will pull a Nintendo and be like "haha Modern Pap Mayo gets in instead of Geno", so not only would I lose Geno, but my #2 pick would also be horribly tainted to become a shill rep. I really do fear that possibility because Nintendo has been pulling some serious Nintendo things lately, and it's upsetting as hell.

If it weren't for people like Fatman on top of the Mii Fighter costume's absence, I might've given up hope, but look where we are right now

 

[Fatmanonice]

My dear friends, I have terrible news... We probably overthought something. A hot topic in this thread since January has been "where the hell are the Undertale and Luigi's Mansion 3 spirits" and I think the answer is much more simple than we realized. We've been tossing out a lot of theories but I think we've accidentally touched one and regularly run away from it... The reason we probably haven't seen these spirits yet is because of Mii costumes... It's pretty simple: Cuphead had insertions and we're still waiting on Sans. If it were just Sans, there would be no reason to hold it off. Simple conclusion: we're getting at least one more Undertale Mii costume. This is actually a pretty big deal because it can be extended into other trains of thought, including Geno.

This ties into a theory that we've had for a long time that certain Mii costumes are simply being held off until the right time. As a reminder, the Smash 4 Mii costumes that are still MIA are: Geno, Chocobo, Gil, Heihachi, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos. We've already used this to supplement the idea that there's another Square, Namco, and Capcom character coming later, especially in the light that Geno and Rathalos are already spirits and spirit battles in the base game. This said, this presents a very strong argument that their costumes weren't held off "just because", it's about timing.

One more foot note on this, this adds more points to the board for another Microsoft character as it currently stands. As pointed out many times before, Banjo didn't come with any Microsoft or RARE costume, in the same vein that Byleth didn't bring any Nintendo costumes. For Byleth, we had the hypothesis that Nintendo Mii costumes were being held off for a Nintendo character and this appears to be correct. Based on this whole conversation, there's a decent chance that the ARMS character will come with a Luigi's Mansion 3 Mii costume of some kind. In this light, it presents the argument that Microsoft/RARE costumes will probably come with another Microsoft character.

 

[KoopaSaki]

My dear friends, I have terrible news... We probably overthought something. A hot topic in this thread since January has been "where the hell are the Undertale and Luigi's Mansion 3 spirits" and I think the answer is much more simple than we realized. We've been tossing out a lot of theories but I think we've accidentally touched one and regularly run away from it... The reason we probably haven't seen these spirits yet is because of Mii costumes... It's pretty simple: Cuphead had insertions and we're still waiting on Sans. If it were just Sans, there would be no reason to hold it off. Simple conclusion: we're getting at least one more Undertale Mii costume. This is actually a pretty big deal because it can be extended into other trains of thought, including Geno.

This ties into a theory that we've had for a long time that certain Mii costumes are simply being held off until the right time. As a reminder, the Smash 4 Mii costumes that are still MIA are: Geno, Chocobo, Gil, Heihachi, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos. We've already used this to supplement the idea that there's another Square, Namco, and Capcom character coming later, especially in the light that Geno and Rathalos are already spirits and spirit battles in the base game. This said, this presents a very strong argument that their costumes weren't held off "just because", it's about timing.

One more foot note on this, this adds more points to the board for another Microsoft character as it currently stands. As pointed out many times before, Banjo didn't come with any Microsoft or RARE costume, in the same vein that Byleth didn't bring any Nintendo costumes. For Byleth, we had the hypothesis that Nintendo Mii costumes were being held off for a Nintendo character and this appears to be correct. Based on this whole conversation, there's a decent chance that the ARMS character will come with a Luigi's Mansion 3 Mii costume of some kind. In this light, it presents the argument that Microsoft/RARE costumes will probably come with another Microsoft character.

So basically another Microsoft Character could be joining the fight soon? I won't get my hopes up too high, but is it okay if I share this with the Master Chief Thread? I should ask first just so I don't spread false hope.

 

[Polarthief]

If it weren't for people like Fatman on top of the Mii Fighter costume's absence, I might've given up hope, but look where we are right now

Yeah for su---

My dear friends, I have terrible news... We probably overthought something. A hot topic in this thread since January has been "where the hell are the Undertale and Luigi's Mansion 3 spirits" and I think the answer is much more simple than we realized. We've been tossing out a lot of theories but I think we've accidentally touched one and regularly run away from it... The reason we probably haven't seen these spirits yet is because of Mii costumes... It's pretty simple: Cuphead had insertions and we're still waiting on Sans. If it were just Sans, there would be no reason to hold it off. Simple conclusion: we're getting at least one more Undertale Mii costume. This is actually a pretty big deal because it can be extended into other trains of thought, including Geno.

This ties into a theory that we've had for a long time that certain Mii costumes are simply being held off until the right time. As a reminder, the Smash 4 Mii costumes that are still MIA are: Geno, Chocobo, Gil, Heihachi, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos. We've already used this to supplement the idea that there's another Square, Namco, and Capcom character coming later, especially in the light that Geno and Rathalos are already spirits and spirit battles in the base game. This said, this presents a very strong argument that their costumes weren't held off "just because", it's about timing.

One more foot note on this, this adds more points to the board for another Microsoft character as it currently stands. As pointed out many times before, Banjo didn't come with any Microsoft or RARE costume, in the same vein that Byleth didn't bring any Nintendo costumes. For Byleth, we had the hypothesis that Nintendo Mii costumes were being held off for a Nintendo character and this appears to be correct. Based on this whole conversation, there's a decent chance that the ARMS character will come with a Luigi's Mansion 3 Mii costume of some kind. In this light, it presents the argument that Microsoft/RARE costumes will probably come with another Microsoft character.

Or not I guess. Man that timing is hilarious.

At this point, I'm basically holding onto CacoMallow I guess. If we start getting things that knock off stuff on the list, I'm gonna be really sad. This isn't the news I need right now, given how ass Nintendo has been (to me) for the last few months, and even moreso lately with their handling of ACNH and doing Paper Mario: Sticker Star 3.

 

[Qeomash]

My dear friends, I have terrible news... We probably overthought something. A hot topic in this thread since January has been "where the hell are the Undertale and Luigi's Mansion 3 spirits" and I think the answer is much more simple than we realized. We've been tossing out a lot of theories but I think we've accidentally touched one and regularly run away from it... The reason we probably haven't seen these spirits yet is because of Mii costumes... It's pretty simple: Cuphead had insertions and we're still waiting on Sans. If it were just Sans, there would be no reason to hold it off. Simple conclusion: we're getting at least one more Undertale Mii costume. This is actually a pretty big deal because it can be extended into other trains of thought, including Geno.

I don't really follow this logic. To be honest, I don't think there's anything to make of there not being Undertale or Luigi's Mansion 3 spirits. They...simply haven't put any in. Nintendo doesn't have to do a round of spirits for every major release.

This ties into a theory that we've had for a long time that certain Mii costumes are simply being held off until the right time. As a reminder, the Smash 4 Mii costumes that are still MIA are: Geno, Chocobo, Gil, Heihachi, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos. We've already used this to supplement the idea that there's another Square, Namco, and Capcom character coming later, especially in the light that Geno and Rathalos are already spirits and spirit battles in the base game. This said, this presents a very strong argument that their costumes weren't held off "just because", it's about timing.

One more foot note on this, this adds more points to the board for another Microsoft character as it currently stands. As pointed out many times before, Banjo didn't come with any Microsoft or RARE costume, in the same vein that Byleth didn't bring any Nintendo costumes. For Byleth, we had the hypothesis that Nintendo Mii costumes were being held off for a Nintendo character and this appears to be correct. Based on this whole conversation, there's a decent chance that the ARMS character will come with a Luigi's Mansion 3 Mii costume of some kind. In this light, it presents the argument that Microsoft/RARE costumes will probably come with another Microsoft character.

I also don't think all costumes will come back, for whatever reason. Low sales, or just no real reason to bring them back. I don't think there's a grand conspiracy to hold Lloyd until there's a Namco rep. Lloyd just might not be returning as a costume at all.

 

[Datboigeno]

My dear friends, I have terrible news... We probably overthought something. A hot topic in this thread since January has been "where the hell are the Undertale and Luigi's Mansion 3 spirits" and I think the answer is much more simple than we realized. We've been tossing out a lot of theories but I think we've accidentally touched one and regularly run away from it... The reason we probably haven't seen these spirits yet is because of Mii costumes... It's pretty simple: Cuphead had insertions and we're still waiting on Sans. If it were just Sans, there would be no reason to hold it off. Simple conclusion: we're getting at least one more Undertale Mii costume. This is actually a pretty big deal because it can be extended into other trains of thought, including Geno.

This ties into a theory that we've had for a long time that certain Mii costumes are simply being held off until the right time. As a reminder, the Smash 4 Mii costumes that are still MIA are: Geno, Chocobo, Gil, Heihachi, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos. We've already used this to supplement the idea that there's another Square, Namco, and Capcom character coming later, especially in the light that Geno and Rathalos are already spirits and spirit battles in the base game. This said, this presents a very strong argument that their costumes weren't held off "just because", it's about timing.

One more foot note on this, this adds more points to the board for another Microsoft character as it currently stands. As pointed out many times before, Banjo didn't come with any Microsoft or RARE costume, in the same vein that Byleth didn't bring any Nintendo costumes. For Byleth, we had the hypothesis that Nintendo Mii costumes were being held off for a Nintendo character and this appears to be correct. Based on this whole conversation, there's a decent chance that the ARMS character will come with a Luigi's Mansion 3 Mii costume of some kind. In this light, it presents the argument that Microsoft/RARE costumes will probably come with another Microsoft character.

This isn't a new frame of thought at all though. Plenty of people have brought up the possibility of Geno coming as a costume for a Mario character or another SE character. That was always a possibility. Things like the cacomallow leak and the fact that Geno has been spoken of so early on and was a big name during Grinch Leak which was pre Wave 2 planning makes it still seem more than likely that he has a strong chance of making it in as a character. And even if the costume came back it could just come with a playable Geno's mii costume pack with Mallow, Chocobo, and Smithy.

I mean is there some sort of information pointing to another SE character getting in? Because framing this obvious possibility as "terrible news" is a bit sus.

 

[Loliko YnT]

I'm guessing you missed the fact a lot of costumes are still missing. So just Geno missing isn't the only thing to think on. They had a lot not in the FP1.

Hell, there's a pretty good chance some didn't get licensed till FP2 as well. Who knows. We have nothing to suggest they were all licensed for FP1 either. Especially since FP2 was something they decided upon later.

Well yes but... The only stuff missing is Namco costume and the MH stuff.
Namco is a big red flag , they're litteraly developping the game , it's not like licensing would be hard with them lol. I personnaly think someone from Namco is coming , and as much as I want it to be my fluffy boy... It's probably not going to be him...
MH is the odd one out tho. There is the possibility Sakurai feel like the boss is enough , since it's an "upgrade" to go from costume to complete boss. However , I think Capcom will have no issues with that either.

I dunno , it feel weird for Nintendo to be :
Yeah , add the Sega costume , yeah , add the Persona costumes , yeah , add the Ubisoft costumes , yeah , add the SNK costumes , no , don't add the SE costumes.
I dunno... Would it really be that much to sign some contract or talk quickly to SE to get back a chocobo hat and Geno mii costume ? Especially when Sakurai is aware that he made that costumes as a compensation for the fans. Why wouldn't Sakurai say "could I quickly ask for the Geno costume with all of that ?".
I know negociations are more complicated than that... But if SE was okay for Superstar saga , Sm4sh , and Ultimate... Then they have no reason to say no.

It's no hard confirmation , but it's just such an odd decision , when the majority of third party costumes came back.

Eh , maybe in the end he's going to go with Paper Mario or Fawful for all I know. It would just be anticlimatic to throw him randomly like that... I don't exactly want a repeat of the Skull Kid situation. It's still very weird he made the Moon a separate AT , and not fuse it with SK. Sakurai can be weird sometimes...

 

[Polarthief]

Plenty of people have brought up the possibility of Geno coming as a costume for a Mario character or another SE character.

Yeah, though it still doesn't explain Mallow if CM and MCL leaks are to be believed (and Smithy for MCL), unless both turn out to be fake which would really, really suck.

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

My dear friends, I have terrible news... We probably overthought something. A hot topic in this thread since January has been "where the hell are the Undertale and Luigi's Mansion 3 spirits" and I think the answer is much more simple than we realized. We've been tossing out a lot of theories but I think we've accidentally touched one and regularly run away from it... The reason we probably haven't seen these spirits yet is because of Mii costumes... It's pretty simple: Cuphead had insertions and we're still waiting on Sans. If it were just Sans, there would be no reason to hold it off. Simple conclusion: we're getting at least one more Undertale Mii costume. This is actually a pretty big deal because it can be extended into other trains of thought, including Geno.

This ties into a theory that we've had for a long time that certain Mii costumes are simply being held off until the right time. As a reminder, the Smash 4 Mii costumes that are still MIA are: Geno, Chocobo, Gil, Heihachi, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos. We've already used this to supplement the idea that there's another Square, Namco, and Capcom character coming later, especially in the light that Geno and Rathalos are already spirits and spirit battles in the base game. This said, this presents a very strong argument that their costumes weren't held off "just because", it's about timing.

One more foot note on this, this adds more points to the board for another Microsoft character as it currently stands. As pointed out many times before, Banjo didn't come with any Microsoft or RARE costume, in the same vein that Byleth didn't bring any Nintendo costumes. For Byleth, we had the hypothesis that Nintendo Mii costumes were being held off for a Nintendo character and this appears to be correct. Based on this whole conversation, there's a decent chance that the ARMS character will come with a Luigi's Mansion 3 Mii costume of some kind. In this light, it presents the argument that Microsoft/RARE costumes will probably come with another Microsoft character.

I'm trying to understand how this is terrible news for Geno and/or something people didn't realize for a long time. The entire theory about the Geno costume not coming back with Hero is an argument that the costume missed the best "timing" for him. And we've discussed forever how the missing costumes are probably coming eventually anyways. I don't think they're holding off on a 5 year old costume returning for some other random Square character for an additional DLC pass that supposedly wasn't planned until the middle of the first pass. I also don't think that Banjo getting 0 additional Microsoft content with him makes it MORE likely that another Microsoft character is coming.

 

[Datboigeno]

Yeah, though it still doesn't explain Mallow if CM and MCL leaks are to be believed (and Smithy for MCL), unless both turn out to be fake which would really, really suck.

In no universe would someone have guessed a Team Rocket mii costume was coming prior to its reveal. The list could be legit with fake SMRPG stuff thrown in but with how legit the cacomallow leak looks and how months and months later it has yet to be disproven I'm still leaning towards both being real but taking time to be revealed.