Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Polarthief]

I can't help but feel any mario character getting in will cause backlash by some aspects of the community at this point, especially if it's one without a dedicated community like King Boo or Kamek, still i'd love them to get in

King Boo absolutely would cause backlash, but Urshifu would cause way, way more backlash. Urshifu would be close to Byleth-levels of backlash, possibly even worse because DLC shill over a fan-favorite. Byleth was backlash because FE/obvious shill, but it's not like they had another better pick than the main protag if they had to push 3H.

I say that goes for any Mario character TBH

I mean at that point that can be applied to "any" character, but you're gonna get way less for Wah and Geno.

Kamek would be more tolerated and accepted as he would be seen as a far overdue addition to the Yoshi series. In fact, if a mook was to be promoted, it should have been Kamek, not Plant.

Yes, even though he's literally a Magikoopa. with no distinction other than name, like "Toad" in SMRPG despite everyone else *also* being a Toad.
This is why you don't use your species as a name. Please don't name your babies "Human".

 

[Icewolff92]

Byleth was backlash because FE/obvious shill, but it's not like they had another better pick than the main protag if they had to push 3H.

They should have done Byleth as a PKMN styled character concidering the lords are way more popular then Byleth, and it would not favor any lord over the other.

I mean at that point that can be applied to "any" character, but you're gonna get way less for Wah and Geno.

With how much of a meme WAH is (which is essentially has created a large following of **** Waluigi followers) and we all know that there are a ton of Geno haters too. I would honestly not say that they would get way less... Why there would be some celebration, I¨m pretty confident you all overestimate with the notion of how well the fanbase would take about Waluigi being playable. Geno would still get a lot of slack, but not on the same level.

 

[PatPrime]

I would love King Boo. Boos are some of my favorite Mario enemies, as seen from my current profile pick. Also, a 3D version of Smash could take inspiration from Power Stone.

 

[Polarthief]

With how much of a meme WAH is (which is essentially has created a large following of **** Waluigi followers) and we all know that there are a ton of Geno haters too. I would honestly not say that they would get way less... Why there would be some celebration, I¨m pretty confident you all overestimate with the notion of how well the fanbase would take about Waluigi being playable. Geno would still get a lot of slack, but not on the same level.

Except Byleth was *widely* hated and Geno/Wah will be widely celebrated *and* hated. Widely negative <<< widely "controversial".

 

[Icewolff92]

Except Byleth was *widely* hated and Geno/Wah will be widely celebrated *and* hated. Widely negative <<< widely "controversial".

You are acting like it will be sunshine and rainbows with both of them which is what I¨m referring too, and that it will be more on the right side then you believe. And this comes from someone that wants Geno and is indifferent about Waluigi (even with the notion that I don¨t get the appeal of him)

 

[Polarthief]

You are acting like it will be sunshine and rainbows with both of them which is what I¨m referring too, and that it will be more on the right side then you believe. And this comes from someone that wants Geno and is indifferent about Waluigi (even with the notion that I don¨t get the appeal of him)

Geno and Waluigi aren't shills though. They also aren't FE. Both have also been heavily requested to the point where a senior marketing manager acknowledged them.

So yes, it's nearly irrefutable that they will have better overall reactions than Byleth.

I'm not saying "they will be accepted by 100% of players", I'm saying "they will have an overall better reception than Byleth did".

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

With an ARMS character getting in and Sakurai explicitly saying once that they would have included one had they had more time and Sakurai making those weird remarks that he does not know what he will do once Ultimate's development is finished, I got the feeling that this Fighters Pass might be him finishing his work for good and settle every open matter from the past. If no further DLC is planned beyond this season and he also has no other future games in his mind he could as well continue supporting Ultimate with more DLC seasons. But he seems confident in not wanting to continue them. Which means he must already be satisfied with all the characters that will be added in this season. This could be him feeling to have finally finished the roster with adding most of the characters he once wanted to put in but couldn't for whatever reasons. In addition to an ARMS character I could very well see Rex, Geno and Heihachi getting in as they all have been considered before. While it is not feasible to search for a theme to unify six characters with only knowing one so far, I still have that weird feeling that this might be it. Sakurai feeling like this would be the roster he ever wanted Smash to have with every past character to ever be in Smash, long time requests like Ridley, K. Rool and Banjo finally getting in, huge 3rd party icons like Sonic, Megaman or Cloud and past considerations that never materialized which all made him see no reason to continue beyond that point. Basically the perfect roster that could never be topped again.

Springman quote: https://www.gameinformer.com/2019/0...r-originally-considered-other-pokemon-choices

So, you're saying this Pass could be based on previously considered character that Sakurai wanted to inlcude but couldn't due to circumstances, right? But now that this could be the chance of Sakurai reconsidering scrapped fighters?

Well, if that's the case, then Rhythm Heaven comes to mind. We all know about the Gematsu Leak and how the Chrous Kids JUST so happen to be the only Gematsu Leak character not playable in Smash. I mean my memory is a litt le fuzzy, but i do remember that in Smash 4 data miners found an unused universe emblem reference for RH organized among the fighters. There's also the whole Sneaky Spirits stuff, you know that one Smash Run enemy that showed up in E3 2014 and made everybody thought that the Chorus Kids were coming? good times. Funnily enough another enemy that was in Smash Run without a playable character was the Polar Bear from Ice Climber, who just so happened to be planned for Smash 4 but were scrapped due to 3DS limitations. Maybe there are some other enemies without a playable rep, like those Xevious block that fell down, but Pac-Man is basically represents all old-school Namco arcade games (kinda like how Terry represents SNK as a whole)

Now granted, there is a big difference between an implied scrapped character according to the game's data, and an official statement made by developers regarding a certain character like the ones you mentioned (Rex, Geno, Heihachi). So maybe im just speculating too much, heh.

Of course, in this scenario the Chorus Kids are the ones that i see as playable but i have noticed how Tibby, the mascot from the more recent Rhythm Heaven Megamix, is missing. Could mean nothing (i don't see Porky as an upcoming character for instance) but still.

 

[Icewolff92]

Geno and Waluigi aren't shills though. They also aren't FE. Both have also been heavily requested to the point where a senior marketing manager acknowledged them.

Never said that they are going to have Byleth access of **** over them. All I¨m saying that they won¨t go over as well as you seem to think...

 

[Polarthief]

Never said that they are going to have Byleth access of **** over them. All I¨m saying that they won¨t go over as well as you seem to think...

Then we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree. Every character has detractors, but I don't see the general opinion being negative towards these two.

 

[Icewolff92]

Then we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree. Every character has detractors, but I don't see the general opinion being negative towards these two.

Fair enough. Maybe I¨m just too cynical (i¨m cynical in general due to stuff that does not need to be mentioned), Hell, I don¨t think Sepiroth would get sunshine and rainbows, and you know how much I defend the possibilities/reason why he should join.

 

[Polarthief]

Fair enough. Maybe I¨m just too cynical (i¨m cynical in general due to stuff that does not need to be mentioned), Hell, I don¨t think Sepiroth would get sunshine and rainbows, and you know how much I defend the possibilities/reason why he should join.

He'd also be better than Byleth; probably a tier or two below what I'd think Geno and Waluigi would get. The backlash would be because "another FF7 rep over a different FF/franchise", but a lot of people really want him so his backlash wouldn't be as bad.

The thing about third party is most people don't want them to double-up on franchises, and FF7 being the first to do that would be obvious shilling/circlejerking, even though Sephiroth is pretty popular (but not nearly as much as Sora, and honestly Geno deserves a bone before we get another FF7 rep).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly? I've seen tons of hatred towards Waluigi and Geno online. It's everywhere too.

There would easily be a backlash. I doubt nearly as much as Byleth.

 

[CannonStreak]

Honestly? I've seen tons of hatred towards Waluigi and Geno online. It's everywhere too.

There would easily be a backlash. I doubt nearly as much as Byleth.

I can understand that and why. Still,I do think the backlash would be smaller than the positive reaction. I mean, these two are very well wanted in Smash, after all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I can understand that and why. Still,I do think the backlash would be smaller than the positive reaction. I mean, these two are very well wanted in Smash, after all.

Oh, I think it'd be more positive. The worst could be "AT arguments" for Waluigi. Geno's worst is irrelevant status.

The same complaints will generally exist.

 

[Polarthief]

Honestly? I've seen tons of hatred towards Waluigi and Geno online. It's everywhere too.

There would easily be a backlash. I doubt nearly as much as Byleth.

Oh, I think it'd be more positive. The worst could be "AT arguments" for Waluigi. Geno's worst is irrelevant status.

The same complaints will generally exist.

For sure. There will always be backlash for every character. There was for Joker, Hero, and Banjo too. But unlike Banjo, Byleth didn't have a massive "OMG HELL YEAH" reaction like the others or base characters. They dug very deep to find a "okay, alright" reaction towards Byleth in their reactions video; I mean seriously, that's how you know the community is *NOT* happy with you.

 

[CannonStreak]

Oh, I think it'd be more positive. The worst could be "AT arguments" for Waluigi. Geno's worst is irrelevant status.

The same complaints will generally exist.

In regards to your last line...

Don't they always?

 

[Fatmanonice]

I think the general reaction to Geno and Waluigi would be good because, despite their fair share of haters, there's plenty of people that actually want them. At worst Geno would probably be whined about as much as Isabelle or Pac-Man and then most people would get over it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

For sure. There will always be backlash for every character. There was for Joker, Hero, and Banjo too. But unlike Banjo, Byleth didn't have a massive "OMG HELL YEAH" reaction like the others or base characters. They dug very deep to find a "okay, alright" reaction towards Byleth in their reactions video; I mean seriously, that's how you know the community is *NOT* happy with you.

Indeed. Either way, not expecting backlash is silly, heh.

I think part of it stems from the idea of "they chose him over MY character?!" and it doesn't help Geno is unused(even Banjo wasn't in that position, which is partially why few were really mad at him getting in) in Mario games in general. It also doesn't help people can't tell the difference between a character made as a meme(which is not Waluigi) and characters who have gained meme status due to how notable they are(which would be what Waluigi is). The "meme character" thing is a really bad term cause it assumes that's all they exist for. Besides, it shouldn't matter cause as long as it's a game character, heh.

 

[CannonStreak]

About this "they chose him over my character" thing (not directed at you, Moptimus), I kind of find it to be a bit silly. Nintendo is choosing the characters, not them, and not every character can get into Smash. HECK! I'd say popularity can be something that won't get a character into Smash Bros. sometimes. Popularity and wanting a character can do so much. Just because a character is wanted doesn't mean that character is going to get in, nor does it mean Nintendo will even think about adding them. I have plenty of characters I want in Ultimate, but I know their chances are low. And I am not even upset at that. It's not the end of the world if a character one wants does not get in.

 

[Polarthief]

About this "they chose him over my character" thing (not directed at you, Moptimus), I kind of find it to be a bit silly. Nintendo is choosing the characters, not them, and not every character can get into Smash. HECK! I'd say popularity can be something that won't get a character into Smash Bros. sometimes. Popularity and wanting a character can do so much. Just because a character is wanted doesn't mean that character is going to get in, nor does it mean Nintendo will even think about adding them. I have plenty of characters I want in Ultimate, but I know their chances are low. And I am not even upset at that. It's not the end of the world if a character one wants does not get in.

It honestly depends. If a highly-marketable/able-to-be-advertised/shilled character gets very popular, then yeah, they'd probably push that character ASAP, especially if first party since that requires no outsiders and no additional cost for licensing.

Then you have characters like Sora who are stuck behind awful lines (Disney), despite being the worldwide frontrunner for "most wanted character", and I really don't think he's getting in because of that.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

I wouldn't mind an ad pick if the pick has an actual history and fan demand. Dixie would be a good ad pick if they revealed her in 4 when Tropical Freeze came out. Corrin is a bad ad pick as he was developed as a fighter before his game came out (Byleth too, but at least there was a gap between game and character where people COULD form a fanbase for him).

And just because a series as a cast of many playable characters doesn't mean they should get a spot automatically reserved for the series. If that was the case, then why aren't there 7 Links in Smash? So if a Pokemon rep comes, it should be a Pokemon with an established fanbase, not just whoever they put in the spotlight to advertise the next game.

I hate saying this, but i feel the same way. I mean i love Isaac, but if the only reason he got in Fighter Pass 2 was to promote an hypthetical remake of Golden Sun for the Switch.......yeah i'll take it. Beggars can't be choosers.

Kamek would be more tolerated and accepted as he would be seen as a far overdue addition to the Yoshi series. In fact, if a mook was to be promoted, it should have been Kamek, not Plant.

Honestly, i agree on that. I don't like the idea of a mook getting into Smash outside of Bandanna Dee (who i don't see as a generic mook, i see him more of a Captain Toad situation) but Kamek would have been way better than Plant.

Though if i had to choose a Yoshi rep, it would be Poochy.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Captain Toad isn't a Bandanna Waddle Dee situation. Regular Waddle Dee was never defined alone. Toad was a defined person and also a species. There's just more than one Toad, including the main Toad. Toad and Captain Toad are entirely different people. It's not like Dr. Mario and the original version of Metal Mario(before Smash and Mario Kart separated them as some point).

A specific Waddle Dee become Bandanna Waddle Dee. One that helps out Kirby.

I get what you're saying, but they're not really that similar at all besides having a word in front of their name.

Also, Kamek isn't really a "mook". The actual Kamek is a high-ranking wizard. The other ones are just Magikoopas who are part of Bowser's army. Plant is a mook alone, and took ideas from the other various Plant mooks throughout Mario's history. So it had a ton to work with.

To clarify, it's only Japan where Kamek and Magikoopas don't have different names, but the literal Kamek debuted in Yoshi's Island. Ironically Toad is in a different situation, as he had two different names in Japan, one for the species and one for the character. ...Which the US didn't properly portray.

Just think of it best as "who cares. They're able to be unique if they're a species or a particular person." Many Pokemon in Smash were not originally defined. Incineroar is just a simple member of the species and isn't based upon any particular notable one. Unlike Pikachu and Charizard(arguably Squirte and what would become an Ivysaur), Mewtwo, and Lucario, and somewhat on Jigglypuff. Pichu isn't based upon the movies either. Species do exist. Plant isn't the first case. Yoshi is literally identical to Toad in that regard as well. Yoshi's only notable thing is it was also a protagonist(which is probably why it got a symbol at the time instead of being a Super Mario character, since Yoshi's Story released in time to separate the franchises more).

 

[Polarthief]

Honestly, i agree on that. I don't like the idea of a mook getting into Smash outside of Bandanna Dee (who i don't see as a generic mook, i see him more of a Captain Toad situation) but Kamek would have been way better than Plant.

BWD is like the least mookish mook. Even Captain Toad is just a Toad with gear; the actual Toad is hardly different. BWD was a Waddle Dee that got tired of being a laughingstock, so he trained up with Megaton Punch (first opponent of that in Kirby Super Star), wielded a spear, and started to kick some AS--- butt (ree Smashboards, lemme curse).

Kamek is literally a named Magikoopa. Captain Toad is just "Toad with gear". BWD is pretty rad and actually a recurring character.

Toad and Captain Toad are entirely different people.

Except all Toads are Toads and any Toad can be CT by putting on gear. He's hardly different.

BWD is actually unique.

Also, Kamek isn't really a "mook". The actual Kamek is a high-ranking wizard. The other ones are just Magikoopas who are part of Bowser's army.

Except he's virtually NO DIFFERENT from other Magikoopas. He's not even like Kammy Koopa who is at least distinguishable from the rest (unless all female Magikoopas look like her? Idk, she might be a Toadette situation).

 

[Icewolff92]

Then you have characters like Sora who are stuck behind awful lines (Disney), despite being the worldwide frontrunner for "most wanted character", and I really don't think he's getting in because of that.

I mean, if they are open for this, I don¨t think Sora really is that hard for Nintendo to get him if they want him
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...evelopers-to-reimagine-its-ip-for-video-games

 

[Polarthief]

I mean, if they are open for this, I don¨t think Sora really is that hard for Nintendo to get him if they want him
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...evelopers-to-reimagine-its-ip-for-video-games

Hey I could totally be wrong, and while I'm actively against Sora, I'll be happy for the millions that wanted him (also the probably 95% of the people in here who want him). As long as Geno gets in, I really, truly, do not care who else is in.

If Disney wants to actually do that, good on them. Hopefully they won't be a massive pain for Nintendo+Sakurai to deal with.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Except all Toads are Toads and any Toad can be CT by putting on gear. He's hardly different.

The main Toad, as in specifically the one in Mario Kart etc. is a single member of a large species. Captain Toad cannot be anyone but himself. He's not the same person as the main Toad either. They already disconfirmed that ages ago.

BWD is actually unique.

As in Captain Toad and the main Toad. They're unique by being a defined member of the species. It doesn't matter if he doesn't look outright different. That's not the only defining characteristic.

Except he's virtually NO DIFFERENT from other Magikoopas. He's not even like Kammy Koopa who is at least distinguishable from the rest (unless all female Magikoopas look like her? Idk, she might be a Toadette situation).

He's literally confirmed as a specific member of the Magikoopas and the only one capable of growing Bowser. Yeah, he's virtually quite different. He has skills they cannot use. In addition, he can use all their skills while those are only specialized in one skill at best.

They're as different as night and day.

It doesn't matter if they use the same sprite. Do you understand what being a defined member is? It means entirely that they have a thing called characterization. Piranha Plant is not defined. Yoshi is defined. The main Toad is defined. Captain Toad is defined. Bandanna Waddle Dee is defined. They're all entirely defined by how they act, not how they look.

 

[Icewolff92]

Hey I could totally be wrong, and while I'm actively against Sora, I'll be happy for the millions that wanted him (also the probably 95% of the people in here who want him). As long as Geno gets in, I really, truly, do not care who else is in.

Honestly, the thing that I think holds them back is Goofy and Donald, and not Disney not allowing them too concidering how integrated these two are with Sora.

 

[YsDisciple]

I believe that perhaps in order for people not too familiarized with Geno to better understand the significance of his potential inclusion in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is by bringing yet again the context of the Smash lore, what Geno (the doll) is, and some examples from real life.

First, examples from real life. Let's bring up everyone's (or at least most people's) favorite and iconic mouse; Mickey (yes, Disney's mascot). Started off as a cartoon character way back when, and in a child's mind, watching said cartoons for the first time leave them in awe and joy. The child then one day accompanies their parents say, to a general retail store, and when walking past the toy section, they spot that which they thought only existed behind the TV screen; Mickey. A Mickey Mouse TOY (or stuffed doll)! At that moment the child's eyes glimmer, and immediately turn to their parents asking them the obvious request, "I want that!". A similar scenario happens with countless other cartoons, animated series, and even movies.

Another example are video games themselves (although now more than back in the day). Now days you have some games launch with a "complete", or "collector's" edition bundle which at times include either the game's original soundtrack, a themed poster, and in some rare occasions, a figure of a main character from said game. Although most of these figures are sold separately but, die hard fans of video game series (i.e. Final Fantasy VII, The Legend of Zelda, Mega Man X, etc.) will buy said figures A.S.A.P.

With those two examples, let's bring up Geno (again, the doll). In Super Mario RPG, Geno at first is just another doll along with Gaz's Mario, Peach, and Bowser figures. Obviously, from the four Geno stood out the most (really, who IS this?!). Soon after its first appearance, it isn't until that magical, divine scene in which a star comes into Gaz's room, and after hopping over each of the dolls until it hovers over Geno, we witness the literal animation and transformation of the doll to life. The doll is given life; in every scene he's in we see his behavior, remarks, and role within SMRPG's story.

I won't go on about too much with the Smash Bros. lore since it's been touched upon previously on this thread, but basically since Smash 64, the fighters within the lore are all toys (remember the opening scene from the original Super Smash Bros.). These toys engage in epic battles in the world of imagination. In a way, within the imaginary world, the worlds from which each character comes from seems real (i.e. for Mario the Mushroom Kingdom; for Link it's Hyrule, and so on). Besides them engaging in epic battles in the world of imagination, the other part of the lore consists of said fighters hoping to one day reach the real world. This part of the lore is a great point of discussion because, in a way, all the fighters have already "reached" the real world. Albeit not in a literal aspect, but the way in which they have reached the real world can be seen through their games, their merchandise, and heck, even cosplays fans do of their favorite characters, movies (i.e. Sonic), and even the very same Smash tournaments. In fact, the world of imagination could be considered not simply the one we see within the games; but the one that was birthed from each character's creator/developer.

Following the topic of "reaching" the real world, Geno has already done so, but within the medium he originated in. Geno is a character that LITERALLY fulfilled the Smash Bros. lore way before Smash Bros. was even a thing. As Gaz played with his toys, Geno (again, the doll) would always embark on an incredible imaginary journey, and when Gaz asked Mario to play with him, Geno engaged in an "epic battle" (which as we all know, ended up with leaving "real-life-Mario" unconscious). However when the star messenger possesses Geno, he actually brings the doll to life, and within SMRPG, to the "real world".

Hot take: as it could be said that Sakurai was inspired by fighting games such as King of Fighters to make Super Smash Bros. as a game that would be more accessible; what if the lore of Smash Bros. was in part inspired by Super Mario RPG's Geno?

 

[Polarthief]

The main Toad, as in specifically the one in Mario Kart etc. is a single member of a large species. Captain Toad cannot be anyone but himself. He's not the same person as the main Toad either. They already disconfirmed that ages ago.

My point was any toad can put on gear and be too heavy to jump. It's not like they act different or even have any different characteristics. If CT was at least a different person (like he's clearly courageous, or cowardly, or something that other toads aren't), then I'd get that, but he's not. That's the problem I have. Same with the "main" Toad, even in SMRPG.

As in Captain Toad and the main Toad. They're unique by being a defined member of the species. It doesn't matter if he doesn't look outright different. That's not the only defining characteristic.

You *could* argue "any WD can pick up a spear", but that takes actual training. Putting on gear doesn't really require anything.

He's literally confirmed as a specific member of the Magikoopas and the only one capable of growing Bowser. Yeah, he's virtually quite different. He has skills they cannot use. In addition, he can use all their skills while those are only specialized in one skill at best.

Besides making things bigger/smaller? Sorry I guess I'm not all that familiar with Kamek outside of Yoshi's Island (on SNES the Mario Advance 4 remake). Also Red Magikoopa from TTYD can grow stuff too, just not to the level of Giga Bowser I guess.

In essence, I'd put him around BWD since he can do different things, but I'd absolutely separate CT from him.

The main Toad is defined. Captain Toad is defined.

In what way? Especially the former since I can't distinguish him from his skills, physical appearance, characteristics, or anything really. The latter just "has gear", but no actual skills (like Kamek/BWD), and nothing "defining" about him as well, besides the fact that he has gear. Just like the "main Toad", he has nothing "defined" about him.

Honestly, the thing that I think holds them back is Goofy and Donald, and not Disney not allowing them too concidering how integrated these two are with Sora.

Oh I know, though I think more people would want Sora w/o them than not having Sora to begin with.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

My point was any toad can put on gear and be too heavy to jump. It's not like they act different or even have any different characteristics. If CT was at least a different person (like he's clearly courageous, or cowardly, or something that other toads aren't), then I'd get that, but he's not. That's the problem I have. Same with the "main" Toad, even in SMRPG.

So someone other than the main Toad put it in. What's your point? They're defined by their characterization, not simply their species. Oh, they absolutely act different too. Where did you ever get the idea they don't? The main Toad isn't some coward either. He's actually a very brave specific person who is the original guy in Wario's Woods and Super Mario Bros. 2 USA. Captain Toad is his own person who didn't just don a backpack, but does things his own way.

You *could* argue "any WD can pick up a spear", but that takes actual training. Putting on gear doesn't really require anything.

Not how being defined works. That's a weak excuse to deny they're different people. Not how it works. This is how writing works when it comes to being a defined person; "they do their own thing different from a species." Yeah, that's it.

Besides making things bigger/smaller? Sorry I guess I'm not all that familiar with Kamek outside of Yoshi's Island (on SNES the Mario Advance 4 remake). Also Red Magikoopa from TTYD can grow stuff too, just not to the level of Giga Bowser I guess.

Giant Bowser, to be fair. Giga Bowser is a Smash-only thing.

In essence, I'd put him around BWD since he can do different things, but I'd absolutely separate CT from him.

There's no really a tangible difference between them as a whole. They're just defined people. That's it. It's not about being "more unique". It's about which is which. Kamek's issue is moreso Japan never treated him as different compared to the US. That's what's keeping him down.

In what way? Especially the former since I can't distinguish him from his skills, physical appearance, characteristics, or anything really. The latter just "has gear", but no actual skills (like Kamek/BWD), and nothing "defining" about him as well, besides the fact that he has gear. Just like the "main Toad", he has nothing "defined" about him.

Toad's specifically had skills since Super Mario Bros. 2 USA, including a unique type of jumping ability that has never been emulated by other members of the species. He's the one who directly appeared in the cartoons too(and worth noting he slowly became braver to match his game characterization). Captain Toad doesn't have just gear, he doesn't share the exact same personality. He was never "kind of" a coward. He doesn't run around screaming like the main Toad did during some of his animations(though again, Toad has become braver). That wasn't a random Toad. Not even the random Toads in New Super Mario Bros. can copy the main Toad's techniques either. The unique jump ability is highly specific to that one guy. We see generic Toads, sure, but we always see the main one separated each time he shows up. And he shows up mostly in spin-offs, mind you. He doesn't show up in Super Mario 64 at all. That's not the one who is Peach's specific friend she knows. She also has her own set of Toad Guards, but they aren't brave at all at any point. Captain Toad on the other hand, is well, brave, separating him instantly from the generic Toad race. I don't need to go into Paper Mario's set of unique Toads either.

Again, as long as they have their own distinct personality, they're a different person. It's that simple when it comes to defining someone. Also, if you want to get technical, Yoshi never had his own stand out role beyond the cartoon/comics. He wasn't defined as one person at any point in any game, yet still got in. He's the first completely undefined species to be playable. He's just not a mook.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

BWD is like the least mookish mook. Even Captain Toad is just a Toad with gear; the actual Toad is hardly different. BWD was a Waddle Dee that got tired of being a laughingstock, so he trained up with Megaton Punch (first opponent of that in Kirby Super Star), wielded a spear, and started to kick some AS--- butt (ree Smashboards, lemme curse).

Kamek is literally a named Magikoopa. Captain Toad is just "Toad with gear". BWD is pretty rad and actually a recurring character.

Well my point was the he was a character that stands on its own and not a mook with extra clothing, i may have not chosen the best comparison that i could think of. Maybe i wasn't clear enough in the way i said it.

I see Bandanna Dee as the fourth member of the Kirby cast, and it's a shame he's always looked down upon. I don't like PP's inclusion at all, but at least the "GOOMBA WITH A HAT" argument no longer applies now that an ACTUAL GENERIC MOOK is in the roster. Not that it really was an actual argument against him anyway, but hey at least that argument is dead.

and yeah i know that Kamek's name is the only thing that makes him stand out, in fact Kamek's name is a localization thing. In Japan, the magikoopa species and kamek share the same name, Kammeku. It just so happens that in the Yoshi series, there's only one Magikoopa around and takes the role of Bowser's caretaker and was given his own unique name in international releases (which is ironically more faithful to the japanese name of the generic enemy), while in the Mario series Magikoopas are everywhere, so your perspective on the character can easily change depending if played only Yoshi games or the Mario games as well.

I mean, if they are open for this, I don¨t think Sora really is that hard for Nintendo to get him if they want him
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...evelopers-to-reimagine-its-ip-for-video-games

Disney is wierd. When MVCI was going they didn't wanted their precious Marvel characters to get beat up in their trailers because that would make them look weak. Meanwhile they were okay with Thanos the Mad Titan doing Fortnite dances.

There was also the whole Disney Drawing Academy which was published by Nintendo. or how Disney allowed those Mickey Mouse games on the Genesis Mini which included Castlevania Bloodlnies, Contra Hard Corps, and other edgier games the Genesis is known for.

 

[CannonStreak]

It honestly depends. If a highly-marketable/able-to-be-advertised/shilled character gets very popular, then yeah, they'd probably push that character ASAP, especially if first party since that requires no outsiders and no additional cost for licensing.

Then you have characters like Sora who are stuck behind awful lines (Disney), despite being the worldwide frontrunner for "most wanted character", and I really don't think he's getting in because of that.

I understand. I am just saying, or perhaps should have said more accurately, popularity doesn't always get a character in Smash Bros.

Also, while I have nothing against it, highly marketable, advertised and shilled characters; their popularity and able to be advertised, etc. only last for a short time, and may be limited to that time period before it all tones down later. If the developers could see that for any character, then at least some, but not necessarily all popular characters would have to be passed and not included for reasons like not having the appeal they had in a later game like they used to. Again, just saying, for I have nothing against the idea itself, but I do hope you know what I mean.

Still, it isn't the end of the world if a character one wants does not get into Smash. That said, blaming a character that does get in over their most wanted and by extension, picking on fans of that character, is rather immature, if you ask me.

 

[TheCJBrine]

imo I think it’s unfair to say Toad, Captain Toad and Kamek can’t be their own character while BWD can, when he doesn’t really look any different either aside from his bandana and knowing how to use a spear. At least the main Toad is the lead of Peach’s guards or something (maybe that was only in a manga? idk though the wiki says his role is basically Toadsworth’s and Toadsworth just takes his place in some games) and other stuff (also I like how Luigi’s Mansion 3 has him instead of just the generic toads; his room has sports stuff implying he’s the main one); since he’s playable in a few mainline games (and Wario’s Woods) you could say he’s braver than most other Toads too.

As for Kamek, he’s clearly separate from the other magikoopas even if he wears the same clothes. He was even the only blue magikoopa you could use in Bowser Jr.’s Journey and was the narrator + he took care of Bowser Jr. and tried to help grow him in terms of character and being a leader. Afaik he’s the only magikoopa in the Yoshi series too and is definitely the only one who sticks by Baby Bowser.

Besides, you could technically say this about Yoshi too. Named after his species and the other colors don’t act much different in the games, though green Mr. Yoshisaurus Munchakoopa is clearly individualized as the main Yoshi.

 

[SSGuy]

Kamek would be more tolerated and accepted as he would be seen as a far overdue addition to the Yoshi series. In fact, if a mook was to be promoted, it should have been Kamek, not Plant.

I don't think there has been a mook that has been snubbed of more things in history than Kamek. He's actually genuinely a great character and he would have made an awesome Yoshi series character. He was so close to being in Mario Kart 64 as well. His history is just so weird when it comes to the lack of being playable in just about anything. He got his time in Mario Party 9 but while other characters like Shy Guy stuck around, Kamek was replaced again by Pom Pom. Gotta feel for the turtle wizard.

I still think Geno and E3 is fairly likely, but I want to start seeing a bit more evidence than just piecing together coincidences. I sound like a broken record at this point but I am a little timid over being excited when we have had Rosalina reveals, Cloud reveals and Plant reveals ruin all my excitement. Can't say I really put any blame on a character during Brawl spec.

Fun fact: Fatmanonice actually gave me infraction/moderation points here for flaming about Cloud getting in Smash before Geno. Good times.

 

[Polarthief]

Toad's specifically had skills since Super Mario Bros. 2 USA, including a unique type of jumping ability that has never been emulated by other members of the species. He's the one who directly appeared in the cartoons too(and worth noting he slowly became braver to match his game characterization). Captain Toad doesn't have just gear, he doesn't share the exact same personality. He was never "kind of" a coward. He doesn't run around screaming like the main Toad did during some of his animations(though again, Toad has become braver). That wasn't a random Toad. Not even the random Toads in New Super Mario Bros. can copy the main Toad's techniques either. The unique jump ability is highly specific to that one guy. We see generic Toads, sure, but we always see the main one separated each time he shows up. And he shows up mostly in spin-offs, mind you. He doesn't show up in Super Mario 64 at all. That's not the one who is Peach's specific friend she knows. She also has her own set of Toad Guards, but they aren't brave at all at any point.

I honestly think this can all be summed up with "it's really dumb to have the same name as your species and look identical to everyone else in every way". Maybe Nintendo should do better to fix that at some point (e.g., the Paper Mario approach), rather than stack 300 toads in a paper house in Color Splash. In the end though, I still think CT isn't all that unique (because sometimes he's kinda brave but he is still very much a cowardly Toad), but I did kinda forget about WW and SMB2 regarding the "main Toad" (even though I'd say using reskinned Doki Doki as evidence is a cop-out, they did eventually roll with that as canon since later games like SM3DW stick to it). Maybe Nintendo could just give "Toad" some kind of distinction besides "whenever there's a specific Toad doing something, it's him".

Giant Bowser, to be fair. Giga Bowser is a Smash-only thing.

Is Yoshi's Island final boss not considered "Giga" to people? MyB. They did use that boss fight for inspiration to Bowser's Final Smash in Ultimate though. I figured he was retroactively renamed by some.

There's no really a tangible difference between them as a whole. They're just defined people. That's it. It's not about being "more unique". It's about which is which. Kamek's issue is moreso Japan never treated him as different compared to the US. That's what's keeping him down.

Don't they still call him Magikoopa in the East, having the same awkwardness of Toad being named after his species?

Again, as long as they have their own distinct personality, they're a different person. It's that simple when it comes to defining someone.

I still think the main toad has shown plenty of times to be cowardly though. I've also seen random toads sometimes not acting cowardly. CT has done both himself, so it does make me greatly question if they're actually defined or if they're just a mook, which is what they feel like to me. You've convinced me more on "Toad" toad, but not at all on CT.

Also, if you want to get technical, Yoshi never had his own stand out role beyond the cartoon/comics. He wasn't defined as one person at any point in any game, yet still got in. He's the first completely undefined species to be playable. He's just not a mook.

Yoshi's also definitely in a weird spot. Sometimes he's defined and other time's he's not. I do think he suffers from the same problem as "Main Toad" Toad, in that there's a "sorta-ish" defined main green one. But then other times there's an established Red, Pink, Light/Dark Blue, etc like Yoshi's Story/Yoshi's Island, so I don't even know anymore.

In essence though, "Piranha Plant" has always been a mook. I also question Petey Piranha because according to Viridi, Petey is a "species of PP" (same with Mega/Smilax FTR), unless we have a fourth freaking character named after their ****ing species (Toad, Magikoopa, Yoshi, Petey Piranha).

I don't like PP's inclusion at all, but at least the "GOOMBA WITH A HAT" argument no longer applies now that an ACTUAL GENERIC MOOK is in the roster. Not that it really was an actual argument against him anyway, but hey at least that argument is dead.

I wasn't even saying a mook can't get in since that's obviously not the case with PP. I was just saying I don't see CT as that unique outside of having gear because normal toads can be brave too, and I've seen CT be cowardly plenty of times. "The main Toad" though, I'm a bit more convinced just suffers from looking 100% identical to every other generic-looking Toad (and they really should fix that or change his dang name).

I understand. I am just saying, or perhaps should have said more accurately, popularity doesn't always get a character in Smash Bros.

I've been saying that too and definitely do acknowledge that, though if a character is very popular and Nintendo was already considering them anyway, especially if they can be spun for advertisement, and they're not hard to put in (e.g., first party/easy to work with third party)... I mean, that's just a win-win-win all around.


TL;DR: I think main distinguished characters should be instantly recognizable and Nintendo should do better for Toad and Kamek. I still think CT isn't nearly as defined and unique as people think he is, but that's just my unpopular opinion I guess.

I don't think there has been a mook that has been snubbed of more things in history than Kamek. He's actually genuinely a great character and he would have made an awesome Yoshi series character. He was so close to being in Mario Kart 64 as well. His history is just so weird when it comes to the lack of being playable in just about anything. He got his time in Mario Party 9 but while other characters like Shy Guy stuck around, Kamek was replaced again by Pom Pom. Gotta feel for the turtle wizard.

I'm sure Kammy Koopa taking his place in Paper Mario didn't help matters either. BUT YO, SHE CAN MAKE BLOCKS AND... DROP THEM ON GATES AND STUFF!

Hell he was even snubbed in SMRPG, with a generic Magikoopa healing you in Bowser's Castle when they could have easily made him Kamek instead and even given him a short line of dialogue regarding the fact that he kidnapped Mario (and Luigi) when they were babies, or some kind of Easter Egg connection. Coulda been something like "So uh... sorry about before, hope there's no resentful feelings", just keeping it vague so it sounds like "sorry for being on Bowser's side and attacking you", but people who played Yoshi's Island would know he's actually talking about what happened there.

 

[Let Geno Smash]

I believe that perhaps in order for people not too familiarized with Geno to better understand the significance of his potential inclusion in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is by bringing yet again the context of the Smash lore, what Geno (the doll) is, and some examples from real life.

First, examples from real life. Let's bring up everyone's (or at least most people's) favorite and iconic mouse; Mickey (yes, Disney's mascot). Started off as a cartoon character way back when, and in a child's mind, watching said cartoons for the first time leave them in awe and joy. The child then one day accompanies their parents say, to a general retail store, and when walking past the toy section, they spot that which they thought only existed behind the TV screen; Mickey. A Mickey Mouse TOY (or stuffed doll)! At that moment the child's eyes glimmer, and immediately turn to their parents asking them the obvious request, "I want that!". A similar scenario happens with countless other cartoons, animated series, and even movies.

Another example are video games themselves (although now more than back in the day). Now days you have some games launch with a "complete", or "collector's" edition bundle which at times include either the game's original soundtrack, a themed poster, and in some rare occasions, a figure of a main character from said game. Although most of these figures are sold separately but, die hard fans of video game series (i.e. Final Fantasy VII, The Legend of Zelda, Mega Man X, etc.) will buy said figures A.S.A.P.

With those two examples, let's bring up Geno (again, the doll). In Super Mario RPG, Geno at first is just another doll along with Gaz's Mario, Peach, and Bowser figures. Obviously, from the four Geno stood out the most (really, who IS this?!). Soon after its first appearance, it isn't until that magical, divine scene in which a star comes into Gaz's room, and after hopping over each of the dolls until it hovers over Geno, we witness the literal animation and transformation of the doll to life. The doll is given life; in every scene he's in we see his behavior, remarks, and role within SMRPG's story.

I won't go on about too much with the Smash Bros. lore since it's been touched upon previously on this thread, but basically since Smash 64, the fighters within the lore are all toys (remember the opening scene from the original Super Smash Bros.). These toys engage in epic battles in the world of imagination. In a way, within the imaginary world, the worlds from which each character comes from seems real (i.e. for Mario the Mushroom Kingdom; for Link it's Hyrule, and so on). Besides them engaging in epic battles in the world of imagination, the other part of the lore consists of said fighters hoping to one day reach the real world. This part of the lore is a great point of discussion because, in a way, all the fighters have already "reached" the real world. Albeit not in a literal aspect, but the way in which they have reached the real world can be seen through their games, their merchandise, and heck, even cosplays fans do of their favorite characters, movies (i.e. Sonic), and even the very same Smash tournaments. In fact, the world of imagination could be considered not simply the one we see within the games; but the one that was birthed from each character's creator/developer.

Following the topic of "reaching" the real world, Geno has already done so, but within the medium he originated in. Geno is a character that LITERALLY fulfilled the Smash Bros. lore way before Smash Bros. was even a thing. As Gaz played with his toys, Geno (again, the doll) would always embark on an incredible imaginary journey, and when Gaz asked Mario to play with him, Geno engaged in an "epic battle" (which as we all know, ended up with leaving "real-life-Mario" unconscious). However when the star messenger possesses Geno, he actually brings the doll to life, and within SMRPG, to the "real world".

Hot take: as it could be said that Sakurai was inspired by fighting games such as King of Fighters to make Super Smash Bros. as a game that would be more accessible; what if the lore of Smash Bros. was in part inspired by Super Mario RPG's Geno?

that is one of the best points of view in relation to Geno that I have "worth the redundancy" seen
BTW: I'm not a big fan of the idea that the Geno trailer is a recreation of the SSB 64 intro

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I honestly think this can all be summed up with "it's really dumb to have the same name as your species and look identical to everyone else in every way". Maybe Nintendo should do better to fix that at some point (e.g., the Paper Mario approach), rather than stack 300 toads in a paper house in Color Splash. In the end though, I still think CT isn't all that unique (because sometimes he's kinda brave but he is still very much a cowardly Toad), but I did kinda forget about WW and SMB2 regarding the "main Toad" (even though I'd say using reskinned Doki Doki as evidence is a cop-out, they did eventually roll with that as canon since later games like SM3DW stick to it). Maybe Nintendo could just give "Toad" some kind of distinction besides "whenever there's a specific Toad doing something, it's him".

Actually, Doki Doki was a Super Mario Bros. game in the original development. The massive gameplay change probably didn't go over well for Japan, so they went against the idea.

I agree nonetheless. The names suck. And fair enough on your feelings of C. Toad.

Is Yoshi's Island final boss not considered "Giga" to people? MyB. They did use that boss fight for inspiration to Bowser's Final Smash in Ultimate though. I figured he was retroactively renamed by some.

Yeah. They reused the idea and gave it to Giga Bowser. Giga Bowser was created for Melee based upon Bowser being a Giant at times. It doesn't necessarily mean it was based upon Yoshi's Island or Super Mario 64, though. It could be either. He's never been a devil in either game outside of Melee. It's also possible it references how different he was in the cartoons, by taking part of Wart's appearance from Super Mario Bros. 2 USA. There's even a Super Koopa form he gets. It's kind of awkward. Since he grows larger in Melee from a Trophy, it's probably a YI reference.

Don't they still call him Magikoopa in the East, having the same awkwardness of Toad being named after his species?

Yep. Reverse of the Toad name problem.

I still think the main toad has shown plenty of times to be cowardly though. I've also seen random toads sometimes not acting cowardly. CT has done both himself, so it does make me greatly question if they're actually defined or if they're just a mook, which is what they feel like to me. You've convinced me more on "Toad" toad, but not at all on CT.

That's fair. Though Mook is a poor term, since that's random enemies definition-wise. Species is a better way to put it. It's just that Toad and Captain Toad were literally confirmed in-universe to be different people. ...Captain Toadette and Toadette are another story.

Yoshi's also definitely in a weird spot. Sometimes he's defined and other time's he's not. I do think he suffers from the same problem as "Main Toad" Toad, in that there's a "sorta-ish" defined main green one. But then other times there's an established Red, Pink, Light/Dark Blue, etc like Yoshi's Story/Yoshi's Island, so I don't even know anymore.

This also happened after the comics/cartoons, so the green one did get more defined. That likely helped. Green is also I think the default in the SMW story anyway?

In essence though, "Piranha Plant" has always been a mook. I also question Petey Piranha because according to Viridi, Petey is a "species of PP" (same with Mega/Smilax FTR), unless we have a fourth freaking character named after their ****ing species (Toad, Magikoopa, Yoshi, Petey Piranha).

I think what Viridi means is that they're species related to them. Also, Petey is extremely similar other than being clearly bigger and not being in a pot. If you look at their body designs, he's really just a giant-ass PP. Smilax is more of a cross-species in a similar way. It just grew more heads. There's even an Ice Piranha Plant. Think of it similar to the unique forms like Alohan Raichu, etc. Same idea of species variation.

 

[axel_]

NGL i don't hate Tingle but i would be PISSED if he was the first (or second in this possible case) AT promotion and not Waluigi.

He actually hasn't been an Assist Trophy since Brawl. In Ultiamte, Tingle is just a cameo on Great Bay.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Incidentally I'd love Tingle. I prefer his MM version since he's a lot cooler and nicer. In WW he's an asshole and a slavedriver. Jeez. Thankfully the later versions using his Toon form were wayyyyyyyyyy better.

Also, fixed my post Polarthief. Sorry about that.

 

[Polarthief]

Incidentally I'd love Tingle. I prefer his MM version since he's a lot cooler and nicer. In WW he's an asshole and a slavedriver. Jeez. Thankfully the later versions using his Toon form were wayyyyyyyyyy better.

I still think Impa deserves the spot but that's just me. No one else rooting for her

Also, fixed my post Polarthief. Sorry about that.

All good. I gave a like; wasn't really sure how else to respond.