Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Deleted member]

In my opinion, I personally don’t agree with the Inclusion of Animal Crossing characters. Those guys in a fighting game is so out of place. All Captain Falcon did was drive a futuristic car and yet he is more fighting game material. Remember, Isabelle doesn’t like confrontation nor every Animal Crossing character ever.

 

[Lord Woomy]

easily the most popular original Nintendo character created since 2012

confused Inkling noises

 

[Fatmanonice]

I dunno. When I said I strongly believe that Season 2 is going to be big fan picks, I didn't mean just the Smash fanbase. Look at the Fighter's Pass. 4 out of the 5 were not super wanted by the Smash fanbase. Persona 5 was a meme monster and earned a ton of awards, Dragon Quest is enormous in Japan and has a long history around the world, Fatal Fury and King of Fighters has an enormous global legacy, and, even if you do it begrudgingly, you have to admit that Three Houses sold stupid well and got a ton of impressive awards for a series that was largely niche less than a decade ago. In their own rights, everyone made sense and earned their spot sometimes in literal spite of the Smash fanbase.

Geno and Lloyd are definitely largely Smash fan picks, no question. Characters like Crash and Dante are examples that have a lot of common ground with casual fans and the hardcore Smash fans. Waluigi and Master Chief are the casual picks that I'm practically begging people to not totally disregard, even if they sound impossible to the Smash fanbase. Truth be told, when it comes to character picks, the ones that tend win out have at least one of the following characteristics:

-Are a big deal to Nintendo or gaming in general.

-Are wanted by the Smash fanbase for a long time.

-Are very popular among casual Nintendo fans.

The characters that win out usually have overlap in these categories. Historically speaking, merely being wanted by the Smash fanbase is not enough. If Ultimate has taught us anything, time is a big factor. Characters like Ridley and K. Rool had to be demanded for years before Nintendo budged. Geno is no different. Geno has basically had to prove that he wasn't a Flavor of the Week pick. Demand didn't die after the Mii costume, it got even stronger. In this sense, Smash fanbase picks have even higher criteria to meet than casual picks. Characters like Isabelle and Inkling had staggering game sales to rationalize their addition. The Smash fanbase's opinion of them was irrelevant. This is why we continue to see characters that blindside us on a regular basis and why it seemingly takes forever to get the big Smash fan picks.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

In my opinion, I personally don’t agree with the Inclusion of Animal Crossing characters. Those guys in a fighting game is so out of place. All Captain Falcon did was drive a futuristic car and yet he is more fighting game material. Remember, Isabelle doesn’t like confrontation nor every Animal Crossing character ever.

Couple of things to note;

Villager is a blank-slate personality and was given a moveset that isn't really fighting per-say. Also, it's a party fighting game more akin to how Mario Kart is a violent game. So while there's no denying that AC wouldn't work in something like Street Fighter very well, Smash has enough party elements to fix that.

Isabelle only was added after Amiibo Festival, a giant Mario Party-like game where any violent acts are mini-games. She keeps the same personality and even brings items from there. It's being treated like a fun time for her, not a major battle to be won. Like, I don't entirely disagree she's in a bit of an odd place compared to the blank-slate Villager, but Smash is not a pure fighting game anyway. And they captured the correct personality that fits into the unique style of Smash. The only game where she looks completely out of place is Monster Hunter, anyway. That's a clearly violent game(not party violent either) where she was shoehorned in and didn't fit whatsoever. The other games she's in are casual enough where she's not entirely out of place. She also does have in-game animations in New Leaf that shows she can have a slight dark side. So it wasn't that out of place they could work her into something like Mario Kart(which is more of a party game on its own).

If Amiibo Festival, the first actual in-series game that allowed her to do anything that could be considered violent didn't exist, and she couldn't use Villager as a base? Yeah, she wouldn't really be very workable into Smash. She's not there to represent the core AC abilities like Villager is, so she'd need an entirely new moveset. Might've still happened, but her situation was very context-heavy on why she could actually get in. Her own merits didn't throw her in alone, after all.

 

[ForsakenM]

So I had this really big post that had multiple giant paragraphs like I used to do here and my computer died on me and I lost the whole thing. I even had it spoilered off with cute creative names like they were anime arcs but not only can I barely remember some of the things I wrote about but I'm not even sure who I had tagged. So, because I still want to say something about these things I'm just going to be blunt and short instead of elaborate and thorough mainly due to me being kinda pissed off at losing all of it despite saving it on here.

Spoiler: Dayum this is big yo...

1. Some of you guys have been making horribly weak comments in terms of debating. I would recommend learning about weaknesses in arguments before continuing. Verde Coeden Scalesworth assuming that his information is factual when he has the same circumstantial evidence with no solid proof yet continuing to argue as if what he believes to have happened is factual and ignoring other solid points that contradict what he believes thus proving his confirmation bias is just one solid example of many that I see here. I'm not saying to not debate, but for God's sakes get better at it.
2. I think Phoenix Wright could be another solid pick as the first fighter of Vol 2. Both Phoenix and Hayabusa are solid contenders to me because I'm viewing the pass in the pattern that Nintendo has kept it for years. Any of you who argue you would expect or want a more hype pick like Crash when responding to me fail to understand my stance, which is that a hype pick cannot be the first pick due to a previously established pattern that Nintendo has yet to break for Smash: strong but not too strong of a lead character that gets people hyped up, a bombshell reveal in the middle that gets people blindly hype that they scoot other reveals that are considered 'lame' under the radar and then they finish with a wimper that sets you up to be excited by the next strong but not too strong of a lead. Credit for putting these thoughts together on this thread before myself goes to Fatmanonice
3. All of you who are telling people who are buying Vol 2 outright that they are performing bad consumerism, even if saying it nicely, have no idea what you are talking about. You say that buying the Vol 2 pass before revealing a character that you SUBJECTIVELY find value in is important but ignore the fact that Sakurai and his team make great content and thus there are people like myself who find that the OBJECTIVE value of good quality content is worth our money and we are willing to invest without a reveal because of good faith established by Sakurai and his team. I had multiple huge paragraphs comparing Ultimate and Sword and Shield, both base game and DLC (using what info we have on that DLC and the history of GameFreak) to give proof of supporting a company that does not care about you versus one who does. If people are interested enough, maybe I will remake it, but the point stands that if I went to go buy Vol 2 right now because I know Sakurai and his team are making six badass new characters with top-notch quality and striving for unique gameplay with each one, that is not bad consumerism nor is it telling the company anything more than I want more characters in my favorite game.
4. Since I'm on a role here about being controversial and I already mentioned Fatman, let me be one of the first to say that I don't believe Fatman's new theory. Oh, betrayal, Le Gasp! I know, how HORRIBLE! I'm a TRAITOR! Frankly, I don't see us getting ANY more Microsoft content than what we got. Not having MS Mii costumes with Banjo & Kazooie to me doesn't mean they are being held for another reveal, but that they never existed in the first place because the best they could negotiate for was the bear and the bird as well as anything tied to them to make the stage and Spirit Board. Interestingly enough Terry came with both cameos and costumes of two of the same characters, Iori and Ryo, but B&K didn't come with any B&K costumes or MS costumes. I find this to be evidence of tight negotiations with a competitor company vs working with one like SNK who is down for 50 tracks.
5. Moving on, I have never believe in the Power of Six theory. There are many reasons for why I think it doesn't hold weight and is a stretch, but the biggest two are that there are more costumes missing than just the ones listed (like the Samurai costume) that would make it so not all the costumes would return even if each wave came with six costumes. Another is that only Wave 1 had six, while Wave 2 had four and each other Wave had 5. However, there is enough of a proof of a pattern for me to believe and support the Power of Two theory, which I like to call the Prodigal Son theory since it pushes hope for Geno's inclusion as playable. Each Wave of Mii costumes has had two returning costumes from Smash 4...all except for Wave 2 that was focused on nothing but brand new DQ costumes. This would have been the perfect time to have pretty much any two returning costumes, whether they tried to match it with themes with maybe Gil and MH armor, random dumps for any Mii costumes, or matching up with the company with Geno and Chocobo hat...but they instead went with NO returning costumes at all. Since it's the only wave to do so, it makes it stand out as an outlier, hence the idea that perhaps there is more to it than just the weak argument of 'It was DQ focused' since the amiibo and general patches and updates were not DQ focused and no two costumes would take away even remotely enough spotlight from DQ.
6. We need to accept the fact that random dumps are possible now, and thus any Mii costume can show up with any character. This throws a lot of things out of wack, but at the same time establishes some order. Joker came with Persona and Sega costumes, Hero with DQ, Terry with SNK and other fighting game characters. This is proof that when there are costumes that make thematic sense to reveal in a wave, they will do so so long as they have them. Dumps are for when they do not have a theme or for when they do not have costumes tied to the new character. Note two things form this though: Even the dumps had two returning costumes when DQ didn't, and that Geno has not appeared in the two dumps nor with the wave that made sense because of Square. Why would they not just get free money from those costumes?
7. For the LOVE of ALL that may or may not be holy, STOP CALLING SAKURAI A LIAR JUST BECAUSE YOU CANNOT BREAKDOWN TURNS OF EVENTS! So many of you keep saying that a character is worked on for a whole year because Sakurai said it once in an interview when referring to the base game. Sakurai is no longer working on the base game nor is his smaller team, so as I've said MANY times before, it no longer takes them a year to make a character. Think of it as a small yet specialized team that can now focus on just the tasks of making a character and stages and nothing else. If it were the case that they still worked on a character for an entire year to have them completed, then Joker would have begun development in May of 2018, only TWO MONTHS after Smash's announcement and before we even knew the full name of the game! That would also mean that Hero started development in June 2018, B&K in August 2018, Terry in October of 2018 and Byleth in Feburary of 2019. The only one in this list that DOESN'T make Sakurai a liar by his own values of not liking DLC and not wanting to make content until after the game is released/minimum golden is Byleth, and if Joker had started development that early, why was his reveal trailer at the VGAs fully animated and did not have gameplay? I don't believe the theory, that has little evidence behind it if I remember correctly, that Joker was swapped with Hero for a reveal due to the fact that a trailer like that with voice acting and crisp animation would take minimum a month to put together. This not only makes it unlikely that a switch ever happened but also, if a swap DID happen, would prove that Joker did not have a full year of dev time because even STILL they would have had footage for a gameplay reveal at the VGAs. Thus, all the evidence we have points to all the DLC characters beginning development at the EARLIEST in October when the game went golden.
8. The second part of this is that apparently since Byleth got in and Rex didn't, Sakurai is a liar..despite the fact that fact that base game development and DLC development are two total separate things that took place at two totally separate times. By the way, people like to put the blame on Sakurai but they forget that Nintendo has the ultimate say as they always have and they have pulled their BDE in the past ever since Brawl when it comes to having Sakurai do as they wish for Smash. Thus, when Sakurai says that Nintendo tells him what characters he can make and his only vetos are that he can't make it happen by his standards, Nintendo still has the power role here. What likely happened here is that Nintendo played nice with Sakurai and gave him not only more than five options but also ones they knew he would love to make as a sort of olive branch for tossing DLC at him so suddenly as well as being ***** to him in the past. Oh, and since Rex was a bonus costume for buying the first Fighter's Pass but DLC was tossed onto Sakurai's lap at around the original reveal in March, it's likely that Nintendo didn't give him as an option.
9. Lastly on this huge list (which believe me, is smaller than the original BY FAR) is my opinion on the Byleth being a swap and not the original FP#5. I think there are lots of things that support this, but Nintendo is also known for dropping the ball at the end of Smash trains as well as being randomly and oddly tone-deaf on top of just being Nintendo where they do releases and reveals in wacky ways that make no sense to us. I can't really take a stance on either side, so I won't, but I will admit there are a lot of odd things around Byleth that make me wonder. Creidt to that theory goes to lots of people but the one I read was from PokéfreakofBACON

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm female to clarify. When you hover over my name, it shows up. I guess that doesn't always prevent confusion, welp.

Maybe I should update my usertitle to say that as is?

I gotta make a new username anyway, I guess?

 

[Deleted member]

Couple of things to note;

Villager is a blank-slate personality and was given a moveset that isn't really fighting per-say. Also, it's a party fighting game more akin to how Mario Kart is a violent game. So while there's no denying that AC wouldn't work in something like Street Fighter very well, Smash has enough party elements to fix that.

Isabelle only was added after Amiibo Festival, a giant Mario Party-like game where any violent acts are mini-games. She keeps the same personality and even brings items from there. It's being treated like a fun time for her, not a major battle to be won. Like, I don't entirely disagree she's in a bit of an odd place compared to the blank-slate Villager, but Smash is not a pure fighting game anyway. And they captured the correct personality that fits into the unique style of Smash. The only game where she looks completely out of place is Monster Hunter, anyway. That's a clearly violent game(not party violent either) where she was shoehorned in and didn't fit whatsoever. The other games she's in are casual enough where she's not entirely out of place. She also does have in-game animations in New Leaf that shows she can have a slight dark side. So it wasn't that out of place they could work her into something like Mario Kart(which is more of a party game on its own).

If Amiibo Festival, the first actual in-series game that allowed her to do anything that could be considered violent didn't exist, and she couldn't use Villager as a base? Yeah, she wouldn't really be very workable into Smash. She's not there to represent the core AC abilities like Villager is, so she'd need an entirely new moveset. Might've still happened, but her situation was very context-heavy on why she could actually get in. Her own merits didn't throw her in alone, after all.

Yep, Isabelle doesn’t belong in Monster Hunter too. That was the most out of place choice Nintendo had ever done.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yep, Isabelle doesn’t belong in Monster Hunter too. That was the most out of place choice Nintendo had ever done.

Not too. Smash isn't a bloody fighting game. It's a party fighting game and she fits the game in comparison.

Monster Hunter is the only game where she's actually shoehorned in and doesn't have any games or personality where it can actually fit. Trust me, I thought the same too cause Mario Kart isn't really an accurate way to look at how she is in AC itself. When I learned of Amiibo Festival's full gameplay(which they used assets from) and she treated a lot of these "violent acts" as a game, it told me straight-out that another party-style game works perfectly for her. When she showed up in Smash, they actually kept her personality intact. If it was a straight fighting game and not a party-style fighting game? I'd agree she doesn't fit well at all. But it's not one of those. What makes Smash unique is practically anyone can fit in because it's able to work with violent and party-style characters easily. It's not a one-size fits all situation. Ridley is literally the only severely violent character but was able to make work without blood or gore(something he actually does). Nobody else comes to that extreme. In a way, Isabelle is the opposite extreme, the only one who actually is that non-violent while the rest don't have any kind of personality or games where that matters. She's the only one who could be called a pacifist, but even her own in-universe stuff shows she can get angry/etc. too. She's just a normal person who likes fun and games. The tone works for Smash.

Besides, as someone who still would prefer her as an AT, I was glad to see they actually did the job correctly and they didn't poorly integrate her into Smash like they did with MH. Even Mario Kart was a good showing, which is pretty much the same kind of showing as Smash.

 

[ForsakenM]

I'm female to clarify. When you hover over my name, it shows up. I guess that doesn't always prevent confusion, welp.

Maybe I should update my usertitle to say that as is?

I gotta make a new username anyway, I guess?

Huh.

Welp, I never knew that and I never attempted to do so.

Gender basically means nothing to me (I've been called ma'am and miss a lot over the phone as a dude and I never correct people because I just don't find it important to correct them unless them knowing my gender is important to the situation at hand. I've even had people correct themselves without me saying anything and when they apologize I always tell them 'It's no big deal' because it isn't.) and it also means nothing in terms of pointing out the flaws in your logic and debate skills. Understand that this means that I have no bias in terms of trying to point out faults and keep people consistent and all times so long as I am motivated to do so.

Out of respect and basic human decency, since I know it's a big deal to others and apparently to you since you took the time to point it out rather than do anything else in response, I will do my best to remember that in the future. However, if my interaction with you is limited enough, I may forget much like I do with people's names.

 

[TriggerX]

Nope. She was an All-Star way before that and she was clearly a Casual fan-favorite. Using a character like her to help advertise something purely is the timing of her reveal. It has nothing to do with how immensely popular she was and well known. Even if there was no game coming like New Horizons, she'd have been chosen anyway.

Literally the only actual factor she required was being able to make work, and that's why she was a Villager semi-clone. An entirely new moveset wasn't really possible at that point. They put more priority on uniqueness of others, but still did a great job using the available works(like Amiibo Festival) to make her work overall.

Byleth really wasn't a shill pack in the first place, anyway. The game was releasing in the right time window. The time of announcement being used to help promote stuff has zero correlation on why someone is chosen. We already see why they were chosen, which is to represent the weapon triangle and use a whip sword. It's Uniqueness, but unlike Corrin, wasn't about choosing someone for the sake of advertising an upcoming game. If they wanted to do that, they'd have released the character before 3H came out. The closest is a slight bit with the DLC, but that was more promotional timing, just like Isabelle, not choosing a character inherently for the sake of advertisement. Timing matters a lot in these cases.

I have a feeling Byleth was picked simply to push 3 Houses. As someone had mentioned earlier, his release seems timed for the DLC. It’s not a coincidence that that happened, in an industry like this timing of content happens all the time.

I’m assuming a shill pick is a character that’s picked to promote upcoming games? If that’s the case , Byleth would most certainly fall into that category.

https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/12/13/sakurai-fe25/

That’s an old interview, however the major takeaway from this interview I believe is that a majority of the characters are picked based on timing of releases and what’s popular anyways. As I’ve posted before, the reason Byleth was added in is unlikely due to his/ her popularity due to the reduced time to actually develop a character with that in mind.

Which, if I had to correlate this to Geno is a mark against him. However Sakurai does mention luck being a factor, and stars do usually equal luck.

 

[YsDisciple]

Aaaaand for today's programming, Source Gaming (ft. Rogersbase) talk about their predictions for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Fighters Pass Vol. 2 (Geno included).

Also, earlier today I was thinking about the rumors of a Paper Mario game possibly being announced (and that this game would be a return to form) and suddenly the thought came to mind. What if... this new Paper Mario has the inclusion of Geno (and heck, let's add Mallow to the mix too) as a central (and playable) character? Think about it; the first Paper Mario game was originally going to be Super Mario RPG 2, before the fallout between Nintendo and Squaresoft during the console generation transition from SNES to N64. With these recent rumors alluding to this new Paper Mario game being a return to form, what if they actually went even further back and is actually a return to the true original story (following the events of Super Mario RPG)? This is of course speculation yet again *takes tin foil Geno hat off*, but it's an interesting thought.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I have a feeling Byleth was picked simply to push 3 Houses. As someone had mentioned earlier, his release seems timed for the DLC. It’s not a coincidence that that happened, in an industry like this timing of content happens all the time.

I’m assuming a shill pick is a character that’s picked to promote upcoming games? If that’s the case , Byleth would most certainly fall into that category.

https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/12/13/sakurai-fe25/

That’s an old interview, however the major takeaway from this interview I believe is that a majority of the characters are picked based on timing of releases and what’s popular anyways.

Except there's the problem; they can't know exactly what 3H will release due to things like delays. The character was showed to be chosen due to things like moveset factors. You could argue bias as a factor too(and Sakuria loves FE, so it's not a bad point to make).

3H was already out. That's not an upcoming game to promote. The only reason Corrin actually is that case is because they knew when Fates was releasing in the US and had enough time to promote Corrin(using other assets).

Byleth didn't have that advantage. They were chosen just when the game was being worked on, so recency is the core factor. Not some silly shill situation. If 3H came out way later, Byleth wouldn't have been chosen for Pass 1 at all. At best, Pass 2 for recency factors. 3H was first drawn up as a concept way before DLC and if it wasn't worked on later, Byleth wouldn't have gotten in in the first place.

That interview talks about games releasing at the right time. It's not about shilling so much as recency. That's why ones like Isaac or Wolf(in 4) wouldn't have worked. Wolf was previously cut already. His only upcoming game kept getting delayed, so he no longer has a recent game to tie to, making it easy to make him a non-priority as is. This makes a lot of sense. Isaac had no games upcoming or games already out in the proper time window. This is the exact reason why Rex & Pyra couldn't make it in. They had no recent games. He's not talking about advertising with "trends of the times". He's talking about games releasing(or being started on) at the correct time. Even if a game delays, that won't necessarily affect Smash in itself. If he chooses a character by that point, they were already getting in. The most it could change is the order of reveals, but that's only doable in some situations. You can't choose to announce Byleth at the start of the pass. They had two options; Terry's slot which is months before 3H could release, or closer to when the release is so it still has a smart business sense. Byleth in themselves couldn't have been chosen for the sole sake of advertising. When they were revealed does fit with the DLC, and for good reasons; yes, there's no denying the character's reveal timing was probably planned out to help advertise the DLC. But that's promotional timing, not reason for being added. Now if 3H released slightly later, Byleth probably would still be in too, since the upcoming game factor still plays a role(though it's not comparable to Corrin anyway. Corrin actually was chosen first for that. We don't see really information to suggest the case for Byleth, just that moveset was a key factor and that the game started being worked on at the right time to add a FE character).

I mean, they're similar situations, yes. But for the sake of advertising and because the game came out at the right time to add someone are different situations. Corrin happens to fit the second by design too, but the core reason was stated as advertising. It's not that Byleth can't fit the first one, it's that there's no real evidence to suggest it fits that well. We just have moveset factors being heavily talked about(as they have two actual gameplay gimmicks, the whip sword and the weapon triangle). I mean, if they're the 3rd advertising-related FE pick, then so be it. But so far it's a bit too circumstance-based for me to conclude that as indefinite. It comes to a conclusion that doesn't entirely fit either. Byleth clearly was not advertising an upcoming game when announced nor released. That says something on how much advertisement played a role. DLC is not "upcoming game" in the same way. It's a very different thing. It's an add-on. Promotional timing for announcements happen all the time anyway.

 

[Firox]

3) All of you who are telling people who are buying Vol 2 outright that they are performing bad consumerism, even if saying it nicely, have no idea what you are talking about. You say that buying the Vol 2 pass before revealing a character that you SUBJECTIVELY find value in is important but ignore the fact that Sakurai and his team make great content and thus there are people like myself who find that the OBJECTIVE value of good quality content is worth our money and we are willing to invest without a reveal because of good faith established by Sakurai and his team. I had multiple huge paragraphs comparing Ultimate and Sword and Shield, both base game and DLC (using what info we have on that DLC and the history of GameFreak) to give proof of supporting a company that does not care about you versus one who does. If people are interested enough, maybe I will remake it, but the point stands that if I went to go buy Vol 2 right now because I know Sakurai and his team are making six badass new characters with top-notch quality and striving for unique gameplay with each one, that is not bad consumerism nor is it telling the company anything more than I want more characters in my favorite game.

Ok, bud, while I can see most of your other points, I'm gonna have to call you out on this one. Let's just look at this sentence:

"You say that buying the Vol 2 pass before revealing a character that you SUBJECTIVELY find value in is important but ignore the fact that Sakurai and his team make great content and thus there are people like myself who find that the OBJECTIVE value of good quality content is worth our money and we are willing to invest without a reveal because of good faith established by Sakurai and his team."

So you're sitting here bashing the counter argument for being SUBJECTIVE about a potential character reveal, then go on to say that Sakurai and his team make consistently "great" content as if that's a purely OBJECTIVE outlook. The word "great" in and of itself carries its own bias and subjective nature. For example, is Smash Ultimate's online "great"? I can give several literally objective reasons why it's HEAVILY flawed by an entire industry standard. You say that Sakurai and his team are making "six badass new characters". Badass? Really? How do you know? Sounds pretty subjective. Wish I had that much unearned confidence. Also, was Piranha Plant great? Now, I won't delve into the can of worms involving the plant at large, but let me tell you right now, that was the most polarizing addition to Smash I think I've ever seen. Period. And I'll tell you right the hell now, if PP had been one of the paid DLC of the fighter's pass, it would have been the only one I would NOT have bought. Granted, the actual fighters pass, despite the obvious shill in the room, still managed to impress me enough to buy all the fighters, and I certainly don't fault anyone for using it as a guide for buying the next pass, but to straight-up critique others for being more discriminating with their money only shows that you have no idea what YOU'RE talking about. It also doesn't discount the truth of the matter. That is, buying a product with ZERO knowledge of its contents shows the content producer that you really don't care what's inside. Your trust in them is admirable, but if the next pass is hypothetically garbage, then you only demonstrated that garbage is all they need to make mountains of cash. Like it or not, that's the principle being demonstrated. That's how companies like EA and Gamefreak become what they are. It starts slowly, but given time, your loyalty will be far more valuable to them then their own effort. I'm citing history. Not just my own take on the matter. Just look at Nintendo as a whole. Did the overall online experience improve after we started having to pay for it? A handful of loaner retro games isn't my idea of meaningful improvement. What about getting apps like Netflix, etc.? You know, like the Wii U had? How about the Switch UI? Three years and the thing's never been touched. And why should it? They have your money already, so what do they care?

Again, I can understand if people want to be blindly loyal to the franchise and it's devs. I'm not going to lie, I do think they do some great work overall (yup, subjective), but they miss sometimes too, and anyone that thinks they're infallible is their own kind of naive. And let's be honest here, is it really that hard to summon an OUNCE of self restraint and just wait a couple of weeks to take the plunge with FP2? I'm not even telling people NOT to buy the bundle, JUST WAIT a little bit. Seriously, if people can't handle it, I just gotta shake my head.

 

[MisterMike]

Isabelle was incredibly popular and people ignored her at their own peril, just like they are now with Waluigi. She's an absolute monster among casual Nintendo fans and easily the most popular original Nintendo character created since 2012.

What about Splatoon?

 

[Vector Victor]

I dunno. When I said I strongly believe that Season 2 is going to be big fan picks, I didn't mean just the Smash fanbase. Look at the Fighter's Pass. 4 out of the 5 were not super wanted by the Smash fanbase. Persona 5 was a meme monster and earned a ton of awards, Dragon Quest is enormous in Japan and has a long history around the world, Fatal Fury and King of Fighters has an enormous global legacy, and, even if you do it begrudgingly, you have to admit that Three Houses sold stupid well and got a ton of impressive awards for a series that was largely niche less than a decade ago. In their own rights, everyone made sense and earned their spot sometimes in literal spite of the Smash fanbase.

Geno and Lloyd are definitely largely Smash fan picks, no question. Characters like Crash and Dante are examples that have a lot of common ground with casual fans and the hardcore Smash fans. Waluigi and Master Chief are the casual picks that I'm practically begging people to not totally disregard, even if they sound impossible to the Smash fanbase. Truth be told, when it comes to character picks, the ones that tend win out have at least one of the following characteristics:

-Are a big deal to Nintendo or gaming in general.

-Are wanted by the Smash fanbase for a long time.

-Are very popular among casual Nintendo fans.

The characters that win out usually have overlap in these categories. Historically speaking, merely being wanted by the Smash fanbase is not enough. If Ultimate has taught us anything, time is a big factor. Characters like Ridley and K. Rool had to be demanded for years before Nintendo budged. Geno is no different. Geno has basically had to prove that he wasn't a Flavor of the Week pick. Demand didn't die after the Mii costume, it got even stronger. In this sense, Smash fanbase picks have even higher criteria to meet than casual picks. Characters like Isabelle and Inkling had staggering game sales to rationalize their addition. The Smash fanbase's opinion of them was irrelevant. This is why we continue to see characters that blindside us on a regular basis and why it seemingly takes forever to get the big Smash fan picks.

To be fair, I wouldn't include 3 Houses in this synopsis. Byleth was chosen and worked on before the game was released. It's just that they lucked out and 3 Houses became popular and successful after the fact. Kind of like how Sakurai picked Greninja and by chance Greninja became a fan favorite in the Pokemon community while Sakurai was working on him. As an aside, this beta picking is also a very risky mindset to hold. Eventually there will be a character chosen early who is later on seen as mediocre or downright hated by the source community. By then, the Smash developers are stuck and have to continue with the character despite them now being unpopular. They aren't going to scrap a year's amount of work.

But you are right; fighter pass 1 was about popular choices, just not only Smash fan popularity. A successful and popular modern series pick, an iconic gaming symbol and grandfather of RPGS, a massive fan favorite, and a series that practically sparked Smash's existence. And Byleth.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

While I do want to get the pass now, I want to see who the first character is. I only got so much money to spend at once. Besides, my only issue so far is that you can't buy a Mii costume bundle right now. It takes forever going to buy them separately.

On another note, I agree with the point Firox is making. Nobody should feel the need to buy stuff cause it might be good. The lack of details matter. If you're aren't running a tourney or don't care about having everyone, you have no real incentive to spend the money. It's very subjective on how good the first pass was for people. A first character for pass 2 is very very important for consumers. They want an idea of what could be in. It's already been stated by some people who are only getting certain characters in pass 1. I've seen some express disappointment in buying the whole pass before knowing the whole content. It's completely subjective on how much you care for knowing the full thing or not. Or even a bit of it.

None are wrong answers on how to approach it. Some want more information, which is fair. Some don't care.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yep, Isabelle doesn’t belong in Monster Hunter too. That was the most out of place choice Nintendo had ever done.

Oh yeah, to be even more obnoxious about Isabelle, she cameoed in Monster Hunter, Mario Maker, Taiko Master, Mii Plaza, and mother ****in' Mario Kart before coming to Smash. Major Namco and Capcom cameos... Before coming to Smash... Wanna know what companies Waluigi has crossed with outside of Smash? SEGA, Capcom, Konami, Square Enix, Microsoft, and Ubisoft... Some of these multiple times... Again, I know we're Geno fans and he's the definition of a Smash fan pick but definitely don't sleep on the casual picks either.

 

[TriggerX]

Except there's the problem; they can't know exactly what 3H will release due to things like delays. The character was showed to be chosen due to things like moveset factors. You could argue bias as a factor too(and Sakuria loves FE, so it's not a bad point to make).

3H was already out. That's not an upcoming game to promote. The only reason Corrin actually is that case is because they knew when Fates was releasing in the US and had enough time to promote Corrin(using other assets).

Byleth didn't have that advantage. They were chosen just when the game was being worked on, so recency is the core factor. Not some silly shill situation. If 3H came out way later, Byleth wouldn't have been chosen for Pass 1 at all. At best, Pass 2 for recency factors. 3H was first drawn up as a concept way before DLC and if it wasn't worked on later, Byleth wouldn't have gotten in in the first place.

That interview talks about games releasing at the right time. It's not about shilling so much as recency. That's why ones like Isaac or Wolf(in 4) wouldn't have worked. Wolf was previously cut already. His only upcoming game kept getting delayed, so he no longer has a recent game to tie to, making it easy to make him a non-priority as is. This makes a lot of sense. Isaac had no games upcoming or games already out in the proper time window. This is the exact reason why Rex & Pyra couldn't make it in. They had no recent games. He's not talking about advertising with "trends of the times". He's talking about games releasing(or being started on) at the correct time. Even if a game delays, that won't necessarily affect Smash in itself. If he chooses a character by that point, they were already getting in. The most it could change is the order of reveals, but that's only doable in some situations. You can't choose to announce Byleth at the start of the pass. They had two options; Terry's slot which is months before 3H could release, or closer to when the release is so it still has a smart business sense. Byleth in themselves couldn't have been chosen for the sole sake of advertising. When they were revealed does fit with the DLC, and for good reasons; yes, there's no denying the character's reveal timing was probably planned out to help advertise the DLC. But that's promotional timing, not reason for being added. Now if 3H released slightly later, Byleth probably would still be in too, since the upcoming game factor still plays a role(though it's not comparable to Corrin anyway. Corrin actually was chosen first for that. We don't see really information to suggest the case for Byleth, just that moveset was a key factor and that the game started being worked on at the right time to add a FE character).

I mean, they're similar situations, yes. But for the sake of advertising and because the game came out at the right time to add someone are different situations. Corrin happens to fit the second by design too, but the core reason was stated as advertising. It's not that Byleth can't fit the first one, it's that there's no real evidence to suggest it fits that well. We just have moveset factors being heavily talked about(as they have two actual gameplay gimmicks, the whip sword and the weapon triangle). I mean, if they're the 3rd advertising-related FE pick, then so be it. But so far it's a bit too circumstance-based for me to conclude that as indefinite. It comes to a conclusion that doesn't entirely fit either. Byleth clearly was not advertising an upcoming game when announced nor released. That says something on how much advertisement played a role. DLC is not "upcoming game" in the same way. It's a very different thing. It's an add-on. Promotional timing for announcements happen all the time anyway.

They do know exactly when 3H would be released though. Delays and all. It’s not some completely independent development studio.Both games are developed under Nintendo’s umbrella, there would be communication between different development teams by ways of some middle man I’m sure.
At the end of the day Nintendo is a business, what they won’t do, is release content that cannibalizes their own profits.
Thats why even back in the day, it’s very unlikely to see Nintendo releasing a game like Mario Kart and Diddy Kong racing within the same time frame despite being from different teams.


This is part of the reason deadlines exist within different industries so that multiple branches can synchronize with each other.

 

[Organization XIII]

Byleth really wasn't a shill pack in the first place, anyway. The game was releasing in the right time window.

I'd say being decided for inclusion based on when a game is released is the very essence of a shill pick.

 

[Spatulo]

Oh yeah, to be even more obnoxious about Isabelle, she cameoed in Monster Hunter, Mario Maker, Taiko Master, Mii Plaza, and mother ****in' Mario Kart before coming to Smash. Major Namco and Capcom cameos... Before coming to Smash... Wanna know what companies Waluigi has crossed with outside of Smash? SEGA, Capcom, Konami, Square Enix, Microsoft, and Ubisoft... Some of these multiple times... Again, I know we're Geno fans and he's the definition of a Smash fan pick but definitely don't sleep on the casual picks either.

It is an absolute crime that the first time we’ve gotten a dual boss fight against Wario and Waluigi was with them as Rabbids

Also Geno should be in Mario & Rabbids 2

 

[StarLight42]

Rogersbase huh?

Guy thinks Geno is a "lock" for Fighter's Pass 2

What else can I say other than I hope he's right

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They do know exactly when 3H would be released though. Delays and all. It’s not some completely independent development studio.Both games are developed under Nintendo’s umbrella, there would be communication between different development teams by ways of some middle man I’m sure.
At the end of the day Nintendo is a business, what they won’t do, is release content that cannibalizes their own profits.
Thats why even back in the day, it’s very unlikely to see Nintendo releasing a game like Mario Kart and Diddy Kong racing within the same time frame despite being from different teams.

So why didn't Byleth get revealed before 3H was actually out? They got revealed well after the case. They weren't relying on 3H sales for the character either(so obviously its success didn't matter, as they were chosen independently).

This still shows a matter of the recency factor, something a lot don't have. The closest thing to advertisement was for DLC, but you aren't advertising an upcoming game if the game is already out either. That never makes sense. With your wording, that means Byleth couldn't have been chosen strictly to advertise 3H, but because it was an interesting pick from an upcoming game. The only advertisement possible is the reveal advertising the DLC, as noted a moment ago. Thtat's the only thing that remotely fits.

This is why Corrin and Roy are so far the only actual advertisement picks. They were revealed to advertise a game that wasn't out yet. Hero is only a technical case of it because Luminary isn't the only part of the character, but actually does come close. And only for Definitive Edition.

I'd say being decided for inclusion based on when a game is released is the very essence of a shill pick.

When they aren't used to advertise the actual game? No, no they aren't. Cause that's not how it works. Byleth has to actually advertise a game that isn't out to be shilling it. Which we already know for a fact they didn't do. That's not how context works. Byleth was clearly decided to be revealed later on, and at best you could say they were advertising the DLC only, something that wasn't decided upon immediately more than likely. So it's more business sense in promotional timing, but does not remotely correlate to why Byleth was chosen. They know the release date, after all. So why was Byleth revealed way after 3H was out in stores? Timing clearly does not match up at all.

Incineroar, Greninja, Byleth, Bayonetta were all from games that were recently out by they weren't used to help sell the latest games. If anything, the games being released beforehand only help the characters be more notable/sell better to the audience. More like reverse advertising instead. Joker's another example, who wasn't used to advertise any upcoming game either(especially when Scramble, the only real one, was unrelated to Smash in itself and was going to be revealed before Joker was). Promotional timing for reveals do not correlate to the core reason for being chosen. If you are going to be revealed after a game is already out, it's pretty hard to advertise an already selling game. That's solely a recency factor instead, not for the sake of advertisement. That's why Byleth does a terrible job of selling 3H in itself(only the DLC can be argued reasonably here, because at least it advertises that). Why would you be selling a game that already has been out for months and sold particularly well. Timing doesn't mean it's the cause of it alone. That's ignoring some more key context.

Let me rephrase;

From an upcoming game =/= there to advertise that upcoming game. These are different situations. The only two that actually does both(again, DLC is not an upcoming game) are strictly Roy and Corrin. Hero, as I noted, partially counts, but that's only cause of Luminary, and we know the character was added for the legacy first and foremost. Luminary as a face however does correlate very clearly to advertisement, or at least being the first face. The rest just don't fit the bill in timing. They were revealed way too late to actually advertise an upcoming game. Besides, the term shill is a really bad term that assumes there's a remote problem with choosing characters from recent games(basic timing that's been in every Smash game). It's a very healthy thing and keeps the roster with many relevant/recent characters along with various fan picks. The roster would be honestly really bad if it removed all the relevant characters. We'd lose tons of cool movesets and unique ideas. We'd lose tons of Pokemon too. The only ones that didn't have recency on their side were Pikachu(mascot), maybe Pichu(cause clone, though recency was still a factor, just like Roy. Pichu's a type of mascot, though), and Pokemon Trainer. So half of them are more recency-based to begin with. There's a lot more examples. Only Marth would actually stay in, as everyone else was a recency pick from a game that was started on at the right time to add to Smash. Lucina wasn't just an Echo, but from an upcoming game. I could pick apart each recency pick too, but those are enough examples to show that it matters way more than the silly advertisement factor which is not really all that much there(it's like 2 and 1/4 characters at best).

 

[DaxMasterix]

Geno is a lock for me as well, I just hope it happens soon or at #77
Also, I just got a though. I now want Plok as a MiiCostume with one of these tracks:

Spoiler: Beach theme & Boss Theme

Just.. Make it happen

 

[TriggerX]

So why didn't Byleth get revealed before 3H was actually out? They got revealed well after the case. They weren't relying on 3H sales for the character either(so obviously its success didn't matter, as they were chosen independently).

This still shows a matter of the recency factor, something a lot don't have. The closest thing to advertisement was for DLC, but you aren't advertising an upcoming game if the game is already out either. That never makes sense. With your wording, that means Byleth couldn't have been chosen strictly to advertise 3H, but because it was an interesting pick from an upcoming game. The only advertisement possible is the reveal advertising the DLC, as noted a moment ago. Thtat's the only thing that remotely fits.

This is why Corrin and Roy are so far the only actual advertisement picks. They were revealed to advertise a game that wasn't out yet. Hero is only a technical case of it because Luminary isn't the only part of the character, but actually does come close. And only for Definitive Edition.


When they aren't used to advertise the actual game? No, no they aren't. Cause that's not how it works. Byleth has to actually advertise a game that isn't out to be shilling it. Which we already know for a fact they didn't do. That's not how context works. Byleth was clearly decided to be revealed later on, and at best you could say they were advertising the DLC only, something that wasn't decided upon immediately more than likely. So it's more business sense in promotional timing, but does not remotely correlate to why Byleth was chosen. They know the release date, after all. So why was Byleth revealed way after 3H was out in stores? Timing clearly does not match up at all.

Incineroar, Greninja, Byleth, Bayonetta were all from games that were recently out by they weren't used to help sell the latest games. If anything, the games being released beforehand only help the characters be more notable/sell better to the audience. More like reverse advertising instead. Joker's another example, who wasn't used to advertise any upcoming game either(especially when Scramble, the only real one, was unrelated to Smash in itself and was going to be revealed before Joker was). Promotional timing for reveals do not correlate to the core reason for being chosen. If you are going to be revealed after a game is already out, it's pretty hard to advertise an already selling game. That's solely a recency factor instead, not for the sake of advertisement. That's why Byleth does a terrible job of selling 3H in itself(only the DLC can be argued reasonably here, because at least it advertises that). Why would you be selling a game that already has been out for months and sold particularly well. Timing doesn't mean it's the cause of it alone. That's ignoring some more key context.

Let me rephrase;

From an upcoming game =/= there to advertise that upcoming game. These are different situations. The only two that actually does both(again, DLC is not an upcoming game) are strictly Roy and Corrin. Hero, as I noted, partially counts, but that's only cause of Luminary, and we know the character was added for the legacy first and foremost. Luminary as a face however does correlate very clearly to advertisement, or at least being the first face. The rest just don't fit the bill in timing. They were revealed way too late to actually advertise an upcoming game. Besides, the term shill is a really bad term that assumes there's a remote problem with choosing characters from recent games(basic timing that's been in every Smash game). It's a very healthy thing and keeps the roster with many relevant/recent characters along with various fan picks. The roster would be honestly really bad if it removed all the relevant characters. We'd lose tons of cool movesets and unique ideas. We'd lose tons of Pokemon too. The only ones that didn't have recency on their side were Pikachu(mascot), maybe Pichu(cause clone, though recency was still a factor, just like Roy. Pichu's a type of mascot, though), and Pokemon Trainer. So half of them are more recency-based to begin with. There's a lot more examples. Only Marth would actually stay in, as everyone else was a recency pick from a game that was started on at the right time to add to Smash. Lucina wasn't just an Echo, but from an upcoming game. I could pick apart each recency pick too, but those are enough examples to show that it matters way more than the silly advertisement factor which is not really all that much there(it's like 2 and 1/4 characters at best).

Lol you can’t play the dlc without the game, so in a sense it’s a advertisement for both. They also make more money this way, because now you’ve got people buying a game on top of dlc along with people who already own the base game.

Also, there is a period of time where game sales for a specific title decline, so Byleths choice for FP5 could simply act as a way to surge sales again. It’s just marketing.

There may be some miscommunication here between all of us because you keep using the term “recency”. It’s my understanding that these “shill” picks that people keep referring to mean that the character was added to the roster to push sales of product.
If my definition is correct then all “shill” picks have this quality of recency you are referring to. Because most products the character is trying to promote is either upcoming or already existing within a similar time frame.

 

[Megadoomer]

Aaaaand for today's programming, Source Gaming (ft. Rogersbase) talk about their predictions for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Fighters Pass Vol. 2 (Geno included).

I was just about to post that here; it might not mean much in the grand scheme of things, but I like how three of the four people in this video think that Geno's likely. I just skimmed through to see their lists, though I'll watch in more detail when I have an hour and a half to spare.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

How can anyone be mad at Isabelle's inclusion? Who in their right mind doesn't love pupper secretary?

 

[DaxMasterix]

How can anyone be mad at Isabelle's inclusion? Who in their right mind doesn't love pupper secretary?

Maybe people who wanted Tom Nook (?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Lol you can’t play the dlc without the game, so in a sense it’s a advertisement for both. They also make more money this way, because now you’ve got people buying a game on top of dlc along with people who already own the base game.

Also, there is a period of time where game sales for a specific title decline, so Byleths choice for FP5 could simply act as a way to surge sales again. It’s just marketing.

There may be some miscommunication here between all of us because you keep using the term “recency”. It’s my understanding that these “shill” picks that people keep referring to mean that the character was added to the roster to push sales of product.
If my definition is correct then all “shill” picks have this quality of recency you are referring to. Because most products the character is trying to promote is either upcoming or already existing within a similar time frame.

Recency means that the game released at the right time to get a character. Same with when the game was getting worked on. These are time windows Sakurai is referring to. The term upcoming game was actually only used in reference to Corrin and Roy because they were added strictly to advertise games that weren't coming out yet. Byleth's game was coming out before the reveal, so they're not the same situation whatsoever. In fact, Roy's game got delayed too, so Melee came out first. But either way, it was stated Roy was added to advertise FE6.

And DLC is still an add-on, so Byleth solely advertises that, not the core game which already sold quite well and was out for more than a month. Sales weren't a remote issue, nor was the idea they needed sales of FE to add Byleth. They basically have no correlation at all.

Once again; "Upcoming game" is not the equivalent to advertising that particular game. Even Roy was a unique case since his game was going to release first. Corrin strictly was used to help promote the US version of the game, due to as you said, peak sales. Byleth really acts more of a advertisement to DLC. Otherwise, it would've made way more sense to actually reveal them before 3H's released, to heavily increase sales. The character ultimately doesn't help 3H sell better, it helps the DLC sell better, the latest product at the time.

Another example of this is the Fighter's Pass. Peak sales is at the beginning, when Joker was revealed. After more and more are revealed, hype dies down and it varies on whether they like a character or not. Byleth, in this case, is more like Hero's timing. After the core initial sales, but still could get a few cool sales due to a cool new character option(also, being partially used to advertise something uniquely).

How can anyone be mad at Isabelle's inclusion? Who in their right mind doesn't love pupper secretary?

Well, I wasn't mad. But I think her pacifist style fit better as an AT as is. I'd only have been mad if she was a poorly done echo or didn't keep her awesome personality of being all cute and fluffy while acting like everything is a game in this situation. Exactly what I envisioned of her. Note that I say poorly done Echo. I.E. Daisy. Someone like Chrom or Richter is way better done. Not that I believed she could be an Echo due to the wrong bodyshape. In fact, I won't lie that I literally called her design almost 100%. The only thing I didn't call was her using the other tools again, especially the Fishing Rod. The rest? Very expected to me.

To be fair, I preferred Mr. Resetti as a newcomer myself.

 

[Deleted member]

Geno is a lock for me as well, I just hope it happens soon or at #77
Also, I just got a though. I now want Plok as a MiiCostume with one of these tracks:

Spoiler: Beach theme & Boss Theme

Just.. Make it happen

Ah, I see you’re a man of Plok culture as well. It has to be the beach theme. Him and Yooka-Laylee are my most wanted mii costumes.

 

[MisterMike]

Ah, I see you’re a man of Plok culture as well. It has to be the beach theme. Him and Yooka-Laylee are my most wanted mii costumes.

Speaking of Mii Costumes, I made a list of a few good ones I'd like to see, if you're interested.
https://smashboards.com/threads/newcomer-dlc-speculation-discussion.453424/post-23801760

 

[mynameisBlade]

The best part about Geno is he is not another humanoid character. He literally looks like a mysterious little doll with a very cartoon feel about him similar to Crash Bandicoot being based on an animal. Despite the fact that Crash is my favorite gaming icon of all time.. Smash just needs LESS HUMAN-like fighters. Banjo was in that fighter pass and surrounded by a bunch of anime looking dudes.. It feels so weird. When Smash adds more animals or cartoon-like characters, it makes the game feel less basic imo.

I use the same reasoning for why I LOVE Killer Instinct over Mortal Kombat. The character diversity. Mortal Kombat being a bunch of ninjas, basic champions, a god, and a big boss here and there VS a roster like Killer Instincts that has some crazy **** on it like a werewolf, aliens, a ****ing skeleton, cyborg WITH A PONYTAIL, a boxer, a MUMMY, a dinosaur, a giant stone statue, the girl from the grudge, indians, amazons, a viking, a damn FROG (being Rash from battletoads), a two headed centaur..a vampire... You get the point. I want the next fighter pass to not just be boring human after boring human. This human fights in this style... That human fights in a different style with a weapon.. Blah blah blah..

Personally I just want to see the DLC for Ultimate be more diversified into including more creature type characters. Human characters are great, but damn put some diversity in there. Crash and Geno are just a few examples. They could do Rayman, Bandanna Dee, Dixie Kong, and even Agumon. And while I'm a huge fan of the following: Dante, Ryu Hayabusa, Heihachi, Lloyd Irving, Lara Croft, Sora, Master Chief, Doom Slayer...etc.. (list goes on and on) Something about seeing so many human characters gets tiring after awhile..

 

[Deleted member]

Speaking of Mii Costumes, I made a list of a few good ones I'd like to see, if you're interested.
https://smashboards.com/threads/newcomer-dlc-speculation-discussion.453424/post-23801760

Nice list. I would buy every single one.

 

[Hot_N_Tasty]

Yes, the third game I heard less often than the other two (Pikmin 3 and 3D World) was the Wonderful 101. Nice to have this finally confirmed.

I'm late to the party but OH MY GOD YES ALL OF MY YES. I hope and pray this series gets the love it deserves. Also SMRPG and Geno. Also Wonder Red is my pipe dream pick, even over Geno, with our shooty puppet boi 2nd.

 

[Vector Victor]

If Geno is revealed as playable and they announced SMRPG for Switch Online or as a remake, would Geno be thought as a shill/ad pick?

 

[Organization XIII]

They know the release date, after all. So why was Byleth revealed way after 3H was out in stores? Timing clearly does not match up at all.

They don't need to be released at the same time. It's been mentioned how once a character is included past titles can get a sales boost. The timing was he was literally decided before the game even released. Looking at the upcoming schedule when deciding new a character is literally what they do for a shill pick. Sakurai literally played the game early to put him in Smash. As for the DLC the DLC does usually get road mapped well in advance. Even Ultimate is an example of that. There's nothing coincidental about when the DLC was revealed.

 

[MisterMike]

If Geno is revealed as playable and they announced SMRPG for Switch Online or as a remake, would Geno be thought as a shill/ad pick?

There is a high probability that there is a satisfactory answer to that question.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They don't need to be released at the same time. It's been mentioned how once a character is included past titles can get a sales boost. The timing was he was literally decided before the game even released. Looking at the upcoming schedule when deciding new a character is literally what they do for a shill pick. Sakurai literally played the game early to put him in Smash. As for the DLC the DLC does usually get road mapped well in advance. Even Ultimate is an example of that. There's nothing coincidental about when the DLC was revealed.

Yeah, I don't see the shill part bar at best FE DLC. But I also don't see shill as a thing but a very childish term to not accept that characters have been chosen from an upcoming game because of recency factors(which actually fits Byleth more accurately anyway).

You are aware the reason Sakurai looks for upcoming games isn't for advertising, right(and Corrin was literally it in that particular context. He wasn't the one who thought of Roy either. Luminary was on his mind before Definitive Edition because he was the latest Hero, a logical approach)? It's because it's being done at the right time where it's very easy to get information on the game by playing it while it's developing, to fully understand the character. That's the actual reason why Byleth fits the timing. Same as Incineroar, Chrom(before he was dismissed), Lucina, Robin, Greninja, and actually most FE characters to begin with. Marth didn't need that.

That's what he always has referred to with trends of the times. The game's development and release window matched up with Smash's own timing to make it easy to develop the character. That can include DLC. Bayonetta is yet another perfect example of great timing, and jack-all to do with advertising.

I don't and never will see the correlation. There's nothing to shill in the first place. You want to show off a character to advertise the game? You're doing it before the game comes out, the actual time when it matters. If you're not doing that, you've failed to actually shill a thing. When the game is already out, it no longer matters. That's why I never bought the argument. It's completely illogical to begin with.

That said, I'm done. Nobody has remotely convinced me these things have any relation to advertising. It's more like the games already advertise a ton of characters that people will know and buy once they're announced in Smash. Byleth sells easily because they're already known. That's why making them the last character was logical, to give extra incentive to get them. FE already has irrational hatred at times(not all dislike of FE is irrational, but a lot does go that way. "Blue hair" is a good example of a completely illogical point).

Smash has an advertising effect =/= a bunch of characters(instead of at best 2 and 1/4 only) were added for the sake of advertising despite having zero correlation to that.

 

[Organization XIII]

That's what he always has referred to with trends of the times. The game's development and release window matched up with Smash's own timing to make it easy to develop the character. That can include DLC. Bayonetta is yet another perfect example of great timing, and jack-all to do with advertising.

I don't and never will see the correlation. There's nothing to shill in the first place. You want to show off a character to advertise the game? You're doing it before the game comes out, the actual time when it matters. If you're not doing that, you've failed to actually shill a thing. When the game is already out, it no longer matters. That's why I never bought the argument. It's completely illogical to begin with.

That's the whole reason your argument is flawed in the first place. Smash has been recognized for advertising potential and even it's boost on sales for titles later on. The introduction to these characters in Smash boosts these sales and that's precisely why they always have them. That's the whole reason recency in speculation became a thing. And Bayo not being an ad? That's hilarious. Her series had personal financial backing by Nintendo and then she just happens to be the final DLC? Yeah that all just lucky timing ok.

Smash has an advertising effect =/= a bunch of characters(instead of at best 2 and 1/4 only) were added for the sake of advertising despite having zero correlation to that.

It's precisely because of the advertising effect that there is not only correlation but causation and pretending to not see it doesn't make it any less true.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What part of "I'm done" isn't gotten? I am not going to be convinced. I'm not going to waste time on the debate when you're well aware nothing is going to convince me otherwise. The only thing would be Sakurai actually stating he chose Byleth to advertise 3H. Like he actually said with Roy and Corrin. Two games that don't come out till after Smash, meaning the advertisement has a real effect.

Sure, you can say I'm looking at this in black and white to some degree. You're right. I am. And that stance isn't going to change. In addition, this is a lot bigger derail than intended, so I apologize for that.

Moving on, there's a lot of neat Geno recolors. I'm used to basic ones that often match the 1/2/3/etc. Player controls instead. Though to be fair, I think it was Brawl that started adding weird costumes that don't relate to the actual player icons. 4 actually removed the whole concept by giving you an aura, making it so costumes don't match. Though my guess is because it wasn't much of a choice. With many 3rd party companies giving terrible costumes, you needed a new solution.

 

[SSGuy]

The best part about Geno is he is not another humanoid character. He literally looks like a mysterious little doll with a very cartoon feel about him similar to Crash Bandicoot being based on an animal. Despite the fact that Crash is my favorite gaming icon of all time.. Smash just needs LESS HUMAN-like fighters. Banjo was in that fighter pass and surrounded by a bunch of anime looking dudes.. It feels so weird. When Smash adds more animals or cartoon-like characters, it makes the game feel less basic imo.

I use the same reasoning for why I LOVE Killer Instinct over Mortal Kombat. The character diversity. Mortal Kombat being a bunch of ninjas, basic champions, a god, and a big boss here and there VS a roster like Killer Instincts that has some crazy **** on it like a werewolf, aliens, a ****ing skeleton, cyborg WITH A PONYTAIL, a boxer, a MUMMY, a dinosaur, a giant stone statue, the girl from the grudge, indians, amazons, a viking, a damn FROG (being Rash from battletoads), a two headed centaur..a vampire... You get the point. I want the next fighter pass to not just be boring human after boring human. This human fights in this style... That human fights in a different style with a weapon.. Blah blah blah..

Personally I just want to see the DLC for Ultimate be more diversified into including more creature type characters. Human characters are great, but damn put some diversity in there. Crash and Geno are just a few examples. They could do Rayman, Bandanna Dee, Dixie Kong, and even Agumon. And while I'm a huge fan of the following: Dante, Ryu Hayabusa, Heihachi, Lloyd Irving, Lara Croft, Sora, Master Chief, Doom Slayer...etc.. (list goes on and on) Something about seeing so many human characters gets tiring after awhile..

I particularly don't mind human characters. I can just do less with more anime characters. Like, Terry Bogard is sick but I can't help but look at that CSS of Joker's School Boy alt and make me question the character's masculinity.

The only exception I would have is Lloyd Irving since I want to see his fans get in on the action as well. They have been waiting for a good amount of time as well. I guess Wonder Red is on the cool side to because that guy screams of being a badass.

But more characters like Geno, Crash and Rayman are kind of what I want majority of this pass to be.

And before anyone asks, there are only two animes in the world that achieve godlike status.

Spoiler

Hajime No Ippo and Dr. Stone